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Author Topic: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained  (Read 31203 times)

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Offline Fanny

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Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
« Reply #90 on: November 17, 2017, 09:03:40 PM »
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  • Perhaps you haven't read many of the sound posts on this topic.  I direct you to several posts by Matthew, Ladislaus, and Mithrandylan.

    All of these perhaps's isn't good enough during this time of Crisis where there are a number of absolutely fake priests and bishops running around establishing little cults and dividing Catholics.  The faithful also have a duty to be sure when they seek the sacraments.  
    I have read them.
    It seems to me that some people require more evidence to satisfy them than others.  We can only be as certain as we can be.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #91 on: November 17, 2017, 09:14:51 PM »
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  • A celebret from the local Ordinary (of the Conciliar sect) would make his ordination even more doubtful!!
    I thought of that, but that is why posts always have to balloon to a huge size, to cover all the bases.
    Yes, it goes without saying that we don't have that option, with the current Crisis in the Church. But it doesn't change the fact that under normal times the Church would take care of all that "hard stuff" for us, so we laymen could just live our lives, show up at Mass, and not have to worry about validity, jurisdiction, priestly training, etc.
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    Offline ImmaculateHeart

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #92 on: November 17, 2017, 10:10:10 PM »
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  • If Fr. Malachi Martin recognized and worked with Bp. José Ramon Lopez Gaston, through who the picture, through whose line Bp. Adamson was consecrated by Bp. José Urbina then I don't worry. The Priest who guided Fr. M didn't go researching and looking for a Bishop, as he has known Bp. Adamson for long.

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #93 on: November 17, 2017, 10:26:08 PM »
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  • I never said or implied that I am in any way superior to any other Catholic. That is something that is being read into my comments.

    As for the Archbishop and his legacy, well, the record and present realities speak to that without requiring my input. Many other Catholics see things and draw conclusions from them. Just because I notice them and speak up about them does not elevate  me or set me apart from the others.  You may think that I am "people like that" but you are mistaken in that judgement. I will leave it there.

    The SSPX has done much that is good and it been of great benefit to myself and my family, but that does not mean it is a light in the heavens. I once thought it was, but the last few years have been a rude awakening and a crash course in reality.  

    God Bless you

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #94 on: November 18, 2017, 05:31:21 AM »
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  • If Fr. Malachi Martin recognized and worked with Bp. José Ramon Lopez Gaston, through who the picture, through whose line Bp. Adamson was consecrated by Bp. José Urbina then I don't worry. The Priest who guided Fr. M didn't go researching and looking for a Bishop, as he has known Bp. Adamson for long.
    Thanks for the information.  If Malachi Martin recognized him and worked with him, than he's definitely suspect!


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #95 on: November 18, 2017, 09:14:28 AM »
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  • The SSPX has done much that is good and it been of great benefit to myself and my family, but that does not mean it is a light in the heavens. I once thought it was, but the last few years have been a rude awakening and a crash course in reality.  

    I could have written that myself.

    However, some people go too far in their "wake up call" and find the need to find something *fundamentally wrong* with +ABL's work, as if he made a major mistake, or his whole strategy was fundamentally flawed.

    No, he just had the one weakness that even God can relate to (to a certain degree): he depends on, and works with, flawed and frail human beings. Human beings who lose heart, betray, get deceived, go astray, etc. (Obviously it's hard to directly compare God with any human being. In the case of God, He *chose* to work with flawed human instruments -- but being God, He can still arrange things so that His will is done.)

    God and +ABL could talk about how their respective organizations had serious "personnel" problems -- with God, it's His Church and the recent Modernists/popes. With +ABL, it's the SSPX and +Fellay and cabal.

    For that matter, many parents could talk about how they did everything right, and this or that child still went astray. It's called FREE WILL and FALLEN HUMAN NATURE.

    Let's put it this way -- right now, the Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ has fallen MUCH harder, and much lower, than the SSPX has. Is there anyone on the entire Forum-sphere going to deny that?  So can we therefore conclude that the Church was more fundamentally flawed than the SSPX was? Obviously we can't do that. We'd be getting into blasphemy territory.

    Just because a child turns out awful doesn't always mean it's the parents fault. Sometimes you can indeed trace the cause to bad example of the parents, lack of discipline, sending them to public school to get corrupted, etc. -- but not always! There is such a thing as a "black sheep" who came from the same family, but rejects what the family taught by word and example, and held most dear (Catholic Faith, Catholic morality, etc.) It happens all the time. We can't deny the role of Free Will in the world's problems -- or the Church's problems.

    I say: there was nothing wrong with the SSPX or its position. Let's keep up the good work. Keep on doing what we were doing. We were doing fine (at least as fine as a small, microscopic group can). That's all God expects of us -- to try. He will turn things around when *He* is good and ready.

    As for why the Crisis isn't over, and why the world is still going to hell in a handbasket -- well, Russia hasn't been consecrated to the I.H.M. yet, and the Chastisement hasn't happened yet. I'm with Bishop Williamson on this one. Political activism, grassroots campaigns, and individual heroism didn't turn things around before the Great Flood, and it's not going to work now. God knows this.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #96 on: November 18, 2017, 09:20:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: ImmaculateHeart on Yesterday at 08:10:10 PM
    Quote
    If Fr. Malachi Martin recognized and worked with Bp. José Ramon Lopez Gaston, through who the picture, through whose line Bp. Adamson was consecrated by Bp. José Urbina then I don't worry. The Priest who guided Fr. M didn't go researching and looking for a Bishop, as he has known Bp. Adamson for long.

    Thanks for the information.  If Malachi Martin recognized him and worked with him, than he's definitely suspect!
    .
    Where is the "picture" mentioned? I think I saw it somewhere but now I can't find it.
    .

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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #97 on: November 18, 2017, 09:32:18 AM »
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  • .
    Never mind. I found it:
    .

    Natural de Cuba. Consagrado obispo el 29 de junio de 1992 en Miami, Florida, por Mons. Mamistra Olivares. Luego fue consagrado obispo sub conditione el 20 de noviembre de 1993 en Miami, Florida, por Mons. Jean Charles Roux. Residía en Rockford, Illinois. En la foto, están de izquierda a derecha: Mons. Urbina Aznar, Mons. Malachi Martin (jesuita), P. Rama Coomaraswamy y Mons. Lopez – Gastón.
    • Héctor de la Cruz Ripoll Puga (… -2013)
    .
    .
    .
    From the website
    https://cubacatolica.wordpress.com/linajes-episcopales/linaje-de-mons-dinhthuc-1897-1984/mons-datessen-1934/
    .
    Which was provided on an earlier post
    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/ex-olmc-seminarian-ordained/msg579204/#msg579204
    .
    I recall thinking "that guy in the back row sure looks like Malachi Martin" but I didn't notice his name in the text below.
    .
    I spoke to Martin on the phone in 1995 when in the course of our conversation he mentioned "bishop in pectore." I didn't know what that meant, so I asked him about it and he explained it to me, very patiently, with a lovely Irish brogue.
    .
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    Online Mithrandylan

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #98 on: November 18, 2017, 09:35:43 AM »
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  • If Fr. Malachi Martin recognized and worked with Bp. José Ramon Lopez Gaston, through who the picture, through whose line Bp. Adamson was consecrated by Bp. José Urbina then I don't worry. The Priest who guided Fr. M didn't go researching and looking for a Bishop, as he has known Bp. Adamson for long.
    .
    Coomaraswamy also thought Martin was a bishop. Despite having published some great stuff, Dr. C kind of lost it toward the end (not his faith or sanity-- but good and trustworthy judgment. )
    .
    There's some room in these discussions for trusting the judgment of men whom we esteem, believing they wouldn't lead us wrong. Imo, anyways. But that's very subjective and not sufficient for a public proof.
    .
    Who is the priest who recommended Adamson to Francis?  What can you tell us about him?
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #99 on: November 18, 2017, 10:18:44 AM »
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  • Wasn't Dr. Coomaraswamy a married man who was also a priest?

    Bp. Slupski cited Dr. C as an example or precedent for what he wanted to do with me -- namely, ordain me even though I was already married with 2 children at the time.

    Fortunately, I was sane enough to decline his offer!

    Speaking of otherwise good priests who lose their good judgment and common sense utterly and completely...
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    Offline AJNC

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #100 on: November 18, 2017, 10:25:48 AM »
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  • .
    Coomaraswamy also thought Martin was a bishop. Despite having published some great stuff, Dr. C kind of lost it toward the end (not his faith or sanity-- but good and trustworthy judgment. )
    .
    There's some room in these discussions for trusting the judgment of men whom we esteem, believing they wouldn't lead us wrong. Imo, anyways. But that's very subjective and not sufficient for a public proof.
    .
    Who is the priest who recommended Adamson to Francis?  What can you tell us about him?
    Yes, you are right about Dr.C. We used to exchange letters and he wrote me that Malachy Martin was secretly consecrated bishop by Pius XII.  I was amazed that he could believe such crap.


    Offline obediens

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #101 on: November 18, 2017, 11:38:58 AM »
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  • The photos of Rama Coomaraswamy's ordination are worrisome, to say the least! See: http://www.the-pope.com/RC1b.jpg and http://www.the-pope.com/RC2b.jpg

    Regarding the Imposition of Hands photo:

    The only time when one hand is imposed is at the diaconal ordination (and the crosier isn't held for that either), never the priestly ordination or episcopal consecration.

    I am not sure if the photo is supposed to be of the first imposition of hands, the essential natter of the Sacrament, done before the essential form is recited (during the Consecratory Preface) or of the imposition of hands during the bestowal of the power to forgive sins, "Accipe Spiritum Sanctum..." 

    In any case, it is obvious that even the one hand isn't fully touching the head, just a few fingers! If this was the first imposition, as the essential matter for the Sacrament, that totally calls into question the very validity of the ordination.

    If it was during the "Accipe," that comes before the unfolding of the chasuble, not after, and you can see the chasuble was already unfolded. 

    Regarding the vesting photo:

    There is no ceremony at any level of Holy Orders when the ordaining prelate vests a surplice-wearing ordinand with what appears to be the alb. Never. And, incidentally, where's the amice? 

    This line is supposed to be trustworthy?! In these two photos alone, there are multiple indications of a lack of formation/rubrical knowledge/good sense on the part of the "ordaining prelate" and the assisting clerics on several levels! Malachi Martin was supposedly a great scholar and a secret bishop, why did he go along with this? Only to re-ordain Coomaraswamy. Strange indeed.

    Online Mithrandylan

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #102 on: November 18, 2017, 11:39:08 AM »
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  • Wasn't Dr. Coomaraswamy a married man who was also a priest?
    .
    Yes, the picture from earlier was after his ordination.  He did (to his credit, I suppose, things being as they are) take a vow of celibacy.
    .
    Incidentally, Adamson refers to him as Father Coomarswamy in a review he (Adamson) wrote of his (Coomarswamy's) book: http://www.worldwisdom.com/public/products/0-941532-98-4_Destruction_of_the_Christian_Tradition.aspx?ID=148
    .
    Quote
    Bp. Slupski cited Dr. C as an example or precedent for what he wanted to do with me -- namely, ordain me even though I was already married with 2 children at the time.

    Fortunately, I was sane enough to decline his offer!

    Speaking of otherwise good priests who lose their good judgment and common sense utterly and completely...

    .
    As I understand, Bp. Slupski's experiences under literal communist persecution led him to be... paranoid.  Ergo, the secret consecrations, married men, and the rest.  I've not met him, but have a friend who grew up around him and it's an unfortunate situation.  Over time, things just got worse and worse.
    .
    As I understand, Slupski's "cavalier" approach caused incalculable dismay for Bishop McKenna (RIP) and was a significant factor in McKenna's recusance.

    ETA:

    Here is the review Adamson wrote of Coomarswamy's book:


     
    Quote
    "On a warm spring Sunday in 1966, at the ripe old age of sixteen, I suddenly surprised myself by standing up and walking out of the church in which I had been baptized, made my First Communion and had been Confirmed. This was the church in which my parents were married. It was a church built in large part by the efforts of my Scottish grandfather, a convert. It was the same church from which many members of my family, including my mother, when I was five, had been buried.
     
     From the spiritual side, this was the church for which my Irish and German ancestors had suffered persecution and perhaps even death in order to remain faithful to the One True Church established by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, upon the rock of Peter. Yet, in spite of all this, something inside me was protesting, telling me something was wrong. I did not know what, but I did know that something was not right. I did know that this was no longer the church of my childhood, nor of my parents, nor my ancestors. Something was gnawing at my soul and telling me that this was not “the Church.”
     
     Now, nearly forty years later to the day, someone has confirmed my feelings by answering my questions and self-doubts with facts and data. Father Rama Coomaraswamy’s latest book, The Destruction of the Christian Tradition, published by World Wisdom, shows unequivocally and precisely how the centuries-old enemies of the Church – the Freemasons, Communists and Modernists – have managed to infiltrate the hierarchy, even to the papacy, destroying the Sacraments, especially the Priesthood and the Mass, as well as the doctrines and teachings of Christ’s Mystical Body, and ultimately wreaking havoc upon the faith of millions of Catholics worldwide, both before and after the infamous council of Vatican II.
     
     This book does not, as one frequently finds in Traditional Catholic Apologetics, represent the ranting and raving of a madman kicking against the goad. This is not a book of opinions, either personal or perceived. On the contrary, Fr. Coomaraswamy uses the actual letters, speeches, encyclicals and the very docuмents of the post-Vatican II church, in comparison to the teachings of the True Church. The Destruction of the Christian Tradition is like a mammoth, methodical machine moving meticulously forward, crushing the lies, deceits and false teachings of the heretics and schismatics of this Anti-Catholic Church. This book makes the reader pound his fist upon the table, or shake his head in sad and utter dismay, at the malign and malignant plots and ploys of the evil men and women occupying positions of power within the pseudo-Catholic Church of today.
     
     Everyone who dares call himself Catholic in these present times needs to read this book – especially those contemplating the pretended priesthood or religious life within the Novus Ordo church. Fortunately, one need not possess a degree in theology to understand the issues raised in this book. Fr. Coomaraswamy’s style is clear, concise and to the point. As Bishop T. C. Fouhy states in his introduction, this book is “most readable.” It challenges and provokes, making the reader ask: “Can a church which denies itself be the true Catholic Church?”
     
     My generation, from the late 1940s and 1950s, represents for the most part the putrid, rotten fruits of Vatican II. We had our faith snatched out from under our feet and our spiritual lives snuffed out. The Destruction of the Christian Tradition explains in no uncertain terms how and why this happened. It answers the questions raised within my soul on that Sunday, so long ago in 1966.
     
     But in the final analysis The Destruction of the Christian Tradition becomes a call back to the True Church. To paraphrase Fr. Coomaraswamy, it makes us ask ourselves where we stand, by Caesar or by God? For whom do we cry out, for Barabbas or for Christ?"
     —Bishop Merrill W. B. Adamson

    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline obediens

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #103 on: November 18, 2017, 11:49:11 AM »
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  • As far as the November 1993 consecration by Roux goes, these should suffice: http://www.tboyle.net/Catholicism/Msgr_Chadwick_on_Bp_Roux.html and https://sarumuse.wordpress.com/2013/03/13/vagante-bishop-aping-rome.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #104 on: November 18, 2017, 05:10:15 PM »
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  • .
    Yes, the picture from earlier was after his ordination.  He did (to his credit, I suppose, things being as they are) take a vow of celibacy.
    .
    Incidentally, Adamson refers to him as Father Coomarswamy in a review he (Adamson) wrote of his (Coomarswamy's) book: http://www.worldwisdom.com/public/products/0-941532-98-4_Destruction_of_the_Christian_Tradition.aspx?ID=148
    .
    .
    As I understand, Bp. Slupski's experiences under literal communist persecution led him to be... paranoid.  Ergo, the secret consecrations, married men, and the rest.  I've not met him, but have a friend who grew up around him and it's an unfortunate situation.  Over time, things just got worse and worse.
    .
    As I understand, Slupski's "cavalier" approach caused incalculable dismay for Bishop McKenna (RIP) and was a significant factor in McKenna's recusance.

    ETA:

    Here is the review Adamson wrote of Coomarswamy's book:

    "On a warm spring Sunday in 1966, at the ripe old age of sixteen, I suddenly surprised myself by standing up and walking out of the church in which I had been baptized, made my First Communion and had been Confirmed. This was the church in which my parents were married. It was a church built in large part by the efforts of my Scottish grandfather, a convert. It was the same church from which many members of my family, including my mother, when I was five, had been buried.
     
     From the spiritual side, this was the church for which my Irish and German ancestors had suffered persecution and perhaps even death in order to remain faithful to the One True Church established by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, upon the rock of Peter. Yet, in spite of all this, something inside me was protesting, telling me something was wrong. I did not know what, but I did know that something was not right. I did know that this was no longer the church of my childhood, nor of my parents, nor my ancestors. Something was gnawing at my soul and telling me that this was not “the Church.”
     
     Now, nearly forty years later to the day, someone has confirmed my feelings by answering my questions and self-doubts with facts and data. Father Rama Coomaraswamy’s latest book, The Destruction of the Christian Tradition, published by World Wisdom, shows unequivocally and precisely how the centuries-old enemies of the Church – the Freemasons, Communists and Modernists – have managed to infiltrate the hierarchy, even to the papacy, destroying the Sacraments, especially the Priesthood and the Mass, as well as the doctrines and teachings of Christ’s Mystical Body, and ultimately wreaking havoc upon the faith of millions of Catholics worldwide, both before and after the infamous council of Vatican II.
     
     This book does not, as one frequently finds in Traditional Catholic Apologetics, represent the ranting and raving of a madman kicking against the goad. This is not a book of opinions, either personal or perceived. On the contrary, Fr. Coomaraswamy uses the actual letters, speeches, encyclicals and the very docuмents of the post-Vatican II church, in comparison to the teachings of the True Church. The Destruction of the Christian Tradition is like a mammoth, methodical machine moving meticulously forward, crushing the lies, deceits and false teachings of the heretics and schismatics of this Anti-Catholic Church. This book makes the reader pound his fist upon the table, or shake his head in sad and utter dismay, at the malign and malignant plots and ploys of the evil men and women occupying positions of power within the pseudo-Catholic Church of today.
     
     Everyone who dares call himself Catholic in these present times needs to read this book – especially those contemplating the pretended priesthood or religious life within the Novus Ordo church. Fortunately, one need not possess a degree in theology to understand the issues raised in this book. Fr. Coomaraswamy’s style is clear, concise and to the point. As Bishop T. C. Fouhy states in his introduction, this book is “most readable.” It challenges and provokes, making the reader ask: “Can a church which denies itself be the true Catholic Church?”
     
     My generation, from the late 1940s and 1950s, represents for the most part the putrid, rotten fruits of Vatican II. We had our faith snatched out from under our feet and our spiritual lives snuffed out. The Destruction of the Christian Tradition explains in no uncertain terms how and why this happened. It answers the questions raised within my soul on that Sunday, so long ago in 1966.
     
     But in the final analysis The Destruction of the Christian Tradition becomes a call back to the True Church. To paraphrase Fr. Coomaraswamy, it makes us ask ourselves where we stand, by Caesar or by God? For whom do we cry out, for Barabbas or for Christ?"

     —Bishop Merrill W. B. Adamson

    .
    That's a pretty good read. 
    .
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