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Author Topic: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained  (Read 39342 times)

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Offline AJNC

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Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
« Reply #75 on: November 16, 2017, 09:10:59 PM »
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  • Doesn't take much to find what you are looking for.

    Many photos and all the information here:
    https://cubacatolica.wordpress.com/linajes-episcopales/linaje-de-mons-dinhthuc-1897-1984/mons-datessen-1934/
    If Fr Francis Mbadugha is returning to Nigeria, perhaps he should link up with Fr Bede Nkamuke of the St Gertrude the Great group of Cincinnati, who is already ministering there. Apart from comradeship, he will have the theological resources of Bishops Dolan and Sanborn, and Fr Cekada to draw upon.
    http://www.sgg.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Newsletter156.pdf

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #76 on: November 16, 2017, 09:21:44 PM »
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  • Yes, just Boston, KY. You know, the one I have a grudge against. It's all about my hatred for Fr. Pfeiffer and his organization.
    ::)

    Is that really how you thought I would answer?

    ...

    As a matter of fact, you're dead wrong that "no one has a problem with this". That is in fact my main problem with the Indult. The problem with Indult (and even Rome-approved groups) is the FORMATION of the priests. In the case of Summorum Pontificuм/Indult, almost without exception, you're talking about a Novus Ordo priest who learned to say the Latin Mass on his own. That does NOT make a "Traditional Catholic" priest.

    ...
    .
    I might expect JPaul was not referring to you when he said "no one." I surmise he was referring to those who are prone to criticize Resistance Catholics, who claim they're the "true" Resistance, while they accuse you and others like you of being the "fake" Resistance.
    .
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #77 on: November 16, 2017, 10:11:22 PM »
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  • Quote
    Such people (who leave tradition for the indult) I would describe as "Latin Mass" Catholics, but not Traditional Catholic.
    Sad to say, but I'm beginning to think the "latin mass" catholics outnumber those who truly care about the Faith, of which the mass is a part.  Too many nowadays think the mass is all there is to worry about.

    My brother went to law school and he's fond of telling a story.  His professor said that it's an economic historical truth that it only takes 3 generations for a country to have a failing economy.  The grandparents build the wealth, the parents spend it and have fun and the grandchildren suffer the consequences, and have to start all over.  In the US, we can easily see this example.  The grandparents built wealth after the great depression and WW2.  The parents of the baby boomer generation spent the wealth (i.e. enjoyed life) and the children of today are suffering the consequences of deficit spending, social programs and govt waste.

    I can't help but think this applies to many other things- most notably, the traditional catholic movement.  The 70s generation (grandparents) held to the faith and built traditional catholicism; the 90s generation (parents) enjoyed the benefits of a quasi-stable catholic environment, with schools and chapels, yet did not hand down the true purpose of the "movement", and the trad children nowadays are suffering because they have lost the TRUE connection/reason for 70s - which is opposition to modernism, V2 and the novus ordo.  Some of the grandchildren have left religion altogether; some have left for the indult; many still "go through the motions" of being a trad catholic, but, when push comes to shove, don't really understand the real reasons.  Few there are who have read and studied V2 and modernism and understand the purpose of traditionalism.

    Sorry for a melancholic post, but if we all do our best to educate the youth, maybe we can turn the tide!


    Offline Fanny

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #78 on: November 17, 2017, 12:23:26 AM »
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  • If Fr Francis Mbadugha is returning to Nigeria, perhaps he should link up with Fr Bede Nkamuke of the St Gertrude the Great group of Cincinnati, who is already ministering there. Apart from comradeship, he will have the theological resources of Bishops Dolan and Sanborn, and Fr Cekada to draw upon.
    http://www.sgg.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Newsletter156.pdf
    Fr M is not sedevecanti.

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #79 on: November 17, 2017, 08:53:56 AM »
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  • .
    I might expect JPaul was not referring to you when he said "no one." I surmise he was referring to those who are prone to criticize Resistance Catholics, who claim they're the "true" Resistance, while they accuse you and others like you of being the "fake" Resistance.
    .
    I was certainly not speaking about Matthew as such, but rather Traditional groups in general who whenever they are in conflict with another faction become very agitated over issues such as validity etc. while in the main they never start or contribute to a thread condemning  much greater problems of conciliar validity which range from it false rituals, sacraments, priests, Bishops, and in the current sense its pope.
    "Oh, but we've done that so many times before" is what you will hear. Well has it gotten any better or less problematic for the legitimacy of the Church's mission or sacraments? No, and as time goes on it becomes worse and worse as more questionable priests are "ordained" and move up to be appointed as "bishops" and possibly ordain yet more doubtful priests until the whole of validity and orthodoxy become dilute.
    Frankly, I do not concern myself with the factions calling each other names anymore. The names that they call themselves or others are meaningless. Fake or real? Resistance is a word that would have been relevant directly after the council when it was implementing the revolution but which has now been consolidated and institutionalized. Today it means nothing except skimishing with another faction over how to do a deal with the revolutionaries.
    There is no organized clerical effort or movement which is devoted to countering the council and breaking the hold of the infidel over the Church, which would do battle with the apostate pontiffs and the heretical Bishops directly.  Resistance is an anemic and weak word to use in these times, but if one must use it, there is no true resistance in the Church.  The sedes might be part of the way there but they are still ineffective.
    My original point is that recently there are always two to five active threads lambasting some part or activities of the Boston sect. That is somewhat understandable because Fr. Pfeiffer et al have criticized Bishop Williamson, and his Bishops.  In some cases that is justified, but regardless, it plays to a hostile audience on CI, and offends the Bishops supporters, but Boston Ky is a relatively small miniscule operation, and I wonder why it is given so much attention with other more pressing matters are at hand?

    But issues such as priestly validity and sacramental validity are far bigger than these things and should always be even handed because they do not only apply to a group which might be out of favor but apply to all segments of the Church at the same time and in the same measure, and should be seen and handled in that way. The places where the corruption is the most active and serious need priority attention.

    It does seem that the neo-Traditional movement is sometimes chasing its tail while Rome continues to burn.

    Thank you N.O. for presuming good will as my intention. You were not mistaken.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #80 on: November 17, 2017, 10:32:48 AM »
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    We see and admit to the grave importance of validity when dealing with the Priesthood. And so much has been offered in these last posts as to the necessity of obtaining an adequate amount of certainty of a priest's validity before proceeding.

    This brings directly to light the New York debacle and the unsound advice which issued forth from it.

    When giving Catholics an opening to attend the Novus Ordo and recieve its miraculous sacraments, it appears that there was no talk of acertaining a New Order priest's proof of validity before going there.
    What seemed to qualify as sufficient is how the priest appeared to celebrate the "mass".

    The validity of any given conciliar priest is suspect in that there is no way to know who is and who isn't a priest without properly researching his background.  So if validity is of such high importance(and it is), why on Earth was that not spoken of as a pre-requisite for attending an illicit service (i.e. novus ordo mass) in which there is a known danger of invalidity?  How does that square with what is being said here about the importance of validity, and when there is no less a question or a doubt generated by a Novus ordo ordination than there might be by an Ambrose Moran ordination.

    This is clearly a double standard which is at work here, and such a standard relies upon only part of the truth being presented. It cannot work when the whole of the truth is considered because it is exposed for what it is.
    Very important questions!

    I think, psychologically, the warfare that we catholics have endured against Rome and the confusion and chaos caused by the modernists leave us all overwhelmed and it's easy to lose grip of reality when 95% of the world is crazy, religiously speaking.  We look at the situation in the new church and it's hard to fathom the truth -

    1.  that EVERY novus ordo mass is illicit (therefore sinful), that most are invalid (sinful), that most (all?) are sacrilgious (sinful by atmostphere). 

    2.  that EVERY novus ordo priest's ordination (post 1960s) is doubtful.  And their seminary training is highly suspect and deficient.

    3.  that EVERY novus ordo bishop's consecration is doubtful, as well as seminary training.

    4.  that EVERY traditional ("indult") mass said by novus ordo priests is doubtful, because the priest is doubtful and because his training in SAYING the mass is doubtful.

    5.  that EVERY "indult" mass is morally wrong (in my opinion) because it publicly condones/accepts the sacrilegious and illicit new mass.


    Doubt, doubt, doubt...problems, problems, problems...everywhere.  In all areas of the church, in all countries, in all dioceses.  The evidence is overwhelming.

    Then you start to wonder (at least I do):  "Am I being too strict?  Too damning of these doubts?  I mean, after all, a doubt holds the possibility of being wrong, right?  So maybe the Church isn't as bad off as we think?"

    Sadly, it's not the case.  We must reject newrome's program wholeheartedly, else we compromise our Faith.

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #81 on: November 17, 2017, 11:17:44 AM »
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  • Fr. M provided his lineage and the lineage of the ordination bishop, all the way back to a.b. Thuc.  
    I just don't see that it is reasonable for fr. M to have to provide a copy of the ordaining bishops consecration paperwork.  

    I think the problem is that the ordaining bishop himself has not been forthright about his consecration.  As Mithrandylan pointed out above, there are Thuc lines that are publicly docuмented and they are publicly docuмented because the bishops involved make sure that the docuмentation of their lineage is publicly accessible.  For a priest to go to a bishop who himself is virtually unknown and seems secretive about docuмenting his own lineage, then it is incuмbent upon the priest-candidate to do so or else find a bishop whose lineage is certain.

    Offline Nooseph Polten

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #82 on: November 17, 2017, 01:40:08 PM »
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  • He thought it was appropriate and fine for an apostate, superstitious man (with no seminary or theological training whatsoever) to regularly be in charge of a seminary.
    That speaks to a certain deficiency.
    No he didn't. I have personally heard him say that he thought Pablo's actions regarding this issue and many others were inappropriate and wrong. Be carefull when judging others' intentions.


    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #83 on: November 17, 2017, 03:18:07 PM »
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  • Perhaps the ordaining bishop has shown his docuмentation to the priest Fr. Mbadugha was studying under.  
    Perhaps the priest Fr. Mbadugha was studying under was at the consecration of the ordaining bishop.
    Perhaps fr. Mbadugha has seen the ordaining bishop's docuмentation.
    Perhaps b. Adamson chooses not to associate with traditionalists much due to the strife within camps.  (I can't say that I blame him if this were the case.)
    Anyone who knows Fr. Mbadugha knows that he is one to do his due diligence.
    Also, it seems to me that the lineage is docuмented very detailed on the website posted earlier and nothing further is needed.  

    Perhaps you haven't read many of the sound posts on this topic.  I direct you to several posts by Matthew, Ladislaus, and Mithrandylan.

    All of these perhaps's isn't good enough during this time of Crisis where there are a number of absolutely fake priests and bishops running around establishing little cults and dividing Catholics.  The faithful also have a duty to be sure when they seek the sacraments.  

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #84 on: November 17, 2017, 07:14:35 PM »
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  • I was certainly not speaking about Matthew as such, but rather Traditional groups in general who whenever they are in conflict with another faction become very agitated over issues such as validity etc. while in the main they never start or contribute to a thread condemning  much greater problems of conciliar validity which range from it false rituals, sacraments, priests, Bishops, and in the current sense its pope.
    "Oh, but we've done that so many times before" is what you will hear. Well has it gotten any better or less problematic for the legitimacy of the Church's mission or sacraments? No, and as time goes on it becomes worse and worse as more questionable priests are "ordained" and move up to be appointed as "bishops" and possibly ordain yet more doubtful priests until the whole of validity and orthodoxy become dilute.
    Frankly, I do not concern myself with the factions calling each other names anymore. The names that they call themselves or others are meaningless. Fake or real? Resistance is a word that would have been relevant directly after the council when it was implementing the revolution but which has now been consolidated and institutionalized. Today it means nothing except skimishing with another faction over how to do a deal with the revolutionaries.
    There is no organized clerical effort or movement which is devoted to countering the council and breaking the hold of the infidel over the Church, which would do battle with the apostate pontiffs and the heretical Bishops directly.  Resistance is an anemic and weak word to use in these times, but if one must use it, there is no true resistance in the Church.  The sedes might be part of the way there but they are still ineffective.
    My original point is that recently there are always two to five active threads lambasting some part or activities of the Boston sect. That is somewhat understandable because Fr. Pfeiffer et al have criticized Bishop Williamson, and his Bishops.  In some cases that is justified, but regardless, it plays to a hostile audience on CI, and offends the Bishops supporters, but Boston Ky is a relatively small miniscule operation, and I wonder why it is given so much attention with other more pressing matters are at hand?

    But issues such as priestly validity and sacramental validity are far bigger than these things and should always be even handed because they do not only apply to a group which might be out of favor but apply to all segments of the Church at the same time and in the same measure, and should be seen and handled in that way. The places where the corruption is the most active and serious need priority attention.

    It does seem that the neo-Traditional movement is sometimes chasing its tail while Rome continues to burn.

    Thank you N.O. for presuming good will as my intention. You were not mistaken.
    .
    You're welcome, JPaul.
    .
    I was surprised Matthew presumed the worst of your meaning, but it seems he was shooting from the hip. There are a lot of battles to fight and he's sensitive to particular ones, so your slightly ambiguous wording gave him an opportunity to launch another reaction, which is what he did. Not a bad reaction, really. Formation of priests is a HUGE topic and very important.
    .
    I found it interesting that in your reply, above you mention the incessant demise of Tradition currently afoot:
    .
    "No, and as time goes on it becomes worse and worse as more questionable priests are "ordained" and move up to be appointed as "bishops" and possibly ordain yet more doubtful priests until the whole of validity and orthodoxy become dilute."
    .
    This caught my eye because I saw a rather detailed article about this very thing, how the Pope -- errr, "bishop of rome" --- is deliberately passing over recommended priests for episcopal consecration in favor of certain ultra-liberal priests who are recommended to him merely by a single comment from a fellow Jesuit, in other words, he is throwing tradition out the window in order to overturn everything in sight: 
    .
    http://eponymousflower.blogspot.com.au/2017/11/pope-ignores-congregation-of-bishops-in.html
    .
    One relevant segment:
    .

    Quote
    Pope Francis is looking for "the most progressive candidates". 

    "It is disturbing because it is the task of Cardinal Ouellet in Rome to propose the name to the Pope, but he ignores it and opts for completely different candidates".

    A few days earlier La Croix had written:

    "It has already happened that Pope Francis rejected all three of the names presented to him by Cardinal Marc Ouellet, Prefect of the Congregation of Bishops, [...] and even sought others from his direction."

    In order to seek "others from his own direction," the Pope, in order to obtain information, makes use of the Jesuit order. The decisive factor for Francis, according to Pronkin, is the progressive attitude of the candidate, which must be confirmed to him by a confidant. This confirmation is sufficient. The Pope would then need no dossiers and reports, as presented to him by the Congregation of Bishops. The recommendation of a person whom he trusts is enough to make someone a bishop. 
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #85 on: November 17, 2017, 07:21:35 PM »
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  • No he didn't. I have personally heard him say that he thought Pablo's actions regarding this issue and many others were inappropriate and wrong. Be careful when judging others' intentions.
    .
    So if Fr. Pfeiffer is aware of Pablo's inappropriate and wrong actions, then why is Pablo still in charge of the seminary?
    .
    What does this say of Fr. Pfeiffer's "intentions" when he leaves a QUESTIONABLE man in charge when he's out of town?
    .
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    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #86 on: November 17, 2017, 08:04:45 PM »
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  • .
    So if Fr. Pfeiffer is aware of Pablo's inappropriate and wrong actions, then why is Pablo still in charge of the seminary?
    .
    What does this say of Fr. Pfeiffer's "intentions" when he leaves a QUESTIONABLE man in charge when he's out of town?
    .
    Father keeps making that same mistake over and over, but then their relationship is both complex and odd at the same time.  If the Bishop had acted differently in 2012-13 toward him, things might well have turned out very differently, but then again, their relationship has always be complex and odd as well.  So much drama in the world of SSPXism......................quirky personalities, visions, agendas, and doctrine all mixed up in a eternally simmering soup.  Perhaps the vapors have affected us all by now.    :o  

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #87 on: November 17, 2017, 08:27:45 PM »
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  • Perhaps the ordaining bishop has shown his docuмentation to the priest Fr. Mbadugha was studying under.  
    Perhaps the priest Fr. Mbadugha was studying under was at the consecration of the ordaining bishop.
    Perhaps fr. Mbadugha has seen the ordaining bishop's docuмentation.
    Perhaps b. Adamson chooses not to associate with traditionalists much due to the strife within camps.  (I can't say that I blame him if this were the case.)
    Anyone who knows Fr. Mbadugha knows that he is one to do his due diligence.
    Also, it seems to me that the lineage is docuмented very detailed on the website posted earlier and nothing further is needed.  
     Not good enough. 
    That doesn't help the laity to have certainty. We all have a right to certainty. Unless Fr. Francis has a celebret from the local Ordinary, and he came from a professional seminary with Roman oversight, etc. we need to do our own due diligence ourselves.

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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #88 on: November 17, 2017, 08:34:09 PM »
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  • JPaul,

    I'm just very leery and suspicious of anyone who thinks he's wiser, smarter and "above it all" when the thing being exceeded is....wait for it... the entire Traditional Movement!

    People like that are basically saying to themselves:

    Quote
    Archbishop Lefebvre, all the SSPX bishops, the Resistance bishops, all the sedevacantist prelates and clergy, tens of thousands of Faithful over the past 50 years -- they all just "don't get it". I know exactly what we need to do, and no one's doing it...

    Yeah, whatever. Vainglory much?

    I say do your best in your station of life, and leave the glorious deeds to God. He'll call you if He wants you. You're not going to thwart God.


    EDIT:
    I would like to add that it's bad enough we're objectively above so much of the world's population (having the Faith), and even the vast majority of Catholics, just by virtue of the fact that we know what it means to be Catholic. We know our Faith; we have the truth. This already makes us an elite.

    But I refuse to go a step further and say that I am personally above everyone else in the Trad movement. My pride detector (kind of like a smoke alarm, or a carbon monoxide detector) goes off every time I might be tempted to this kind of thinking.
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Ex-OLMC seminarian ordained
    « Reply #89 on: November 17, 2017, 08:52:56 PM »
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  • Not good enough.
    That doesn't help the laity to have certainty. We all have a right to certainty. Unless Fr. Francis has a celebret from the local Ordinary, and he came from a professional seminary with Roman oversight, etc. we need to do our own due diligence ourselves.
    A celebret from the local Ordinary (of the Conciliar sect) would make his ordination even more doubtful!!