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Author Topic: Eleison Comments - EMERGENCY ADVICE – I Number (866)  (Read 6768 times)

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Offline Seek the Truth

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Eleison Comments - EMERGENCY ADVICE – I Number (866)
« on: February 18, 2024, 07:49:28 PM »
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  • EMERGENCY ADVICE – I

    February 17, 2024
    Eleison Comments Issue DCCCLXVI (866)


    God asks us not the impossible to do,
    But to leave for others the freedom you want for you.

    A reader much confused by what is going on inside the Catholic Church sends in a number of practical questions which many Catholic souls must be asking themselves today in connection with the serious duty for any Catholic of attending Mass to fulfil his Sunday obligation. Normally the answers are more or less clear, but circuмstances since the 1960s’ revolution of Vatican II inside the Church are no longer normal, and so the answers are no longer so clear. Let us list this reader’s questions in order, going from the general to the particular, to reply with answers offered by these “Comments,” but not imposed.

    To what extent is the Newchurch of Vatican II Catholic, and to what extent is it counterfeit?
    Answer, God alone knows, because He alone knows the secrets of men’s hearts, and the borderline between the true and the false Church often runs through men’s hearts, for instance whether or not they have the Catholic Faith. Since He alone can know for sure, then He does not expect us to know. However, He does give us sufficient means to know what we do need to know, and that is to judge by the fruits (cf. Mt. VII, 15–20). These will infallibly tell the difference, for instance, between true and false shepherds. Real joy and charity will reveal where the true Church still exists, even inside the Newchurch structures.

    Do we have a Pope?
    Answer, if we judge Pope Francis by his fruits, they are disastrous for the true Church, to the point that many serious Catholics argue that he is an anti-pope. God does not require of me to know for sure, one way or the other. Good Catholic theologians can disagree. The wisdom of Archbishop Lefebvre for his priests was that they could have their own opinion in private, but in public they should behave as though the apparent Vatican II popes are true Popes, unless and until the evidence is clear that they are not Popes. Even Pope Francis is still serving the Catholic function of providing the structural Church with a visible head, enabling the Church structures to continue functioning until God cleans out the Augean stables. In His own good time God will put the Pope back on his feet. Meanwhile, I may despair of this or that pope, but I must not despair of the Papacy, or of any other institution from the Tradition of Our Lord Himself.

    What about the Newchurch sacraments?
    Answer, like the Newchurch as a whole of which they are product and part, they are still partly good but essentially rotting, like the rotten apples to which they may be compared, because the Newchurch was cleverly designed from the beginning to rot over tens of years until there would be nothing of the true Church left. This was because by the 1960’s when Vatican II happened, many churchmen at the top of the Church had been thoroughly infected by the thinking of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, the secret society created in 1717 in London to infiltrate the Catholic Church until it could be destroyed from within, thus enabling the known enemies of God and man to take over the world. Our Lord’s own Church is the great obstacle in their way.

    What about the “Eucharistic miracles,” supposedly taking place at Novus Ordo “Masses”?
    Answer, down all near 2000 years of Church history so far, God has always by such miracles helped Christians to believe in the stupendous miracle of His Presence beneath mere appearances of bread and wine, and these miracles continue today, because the Sacred Heart will not abandon sheep misled by their shepherds. The difference is that today modern science is available to provide truly scientific evidence to prove that the miracles, if they are genuine, are genuine. See for instance the book “A Cardiologist examines Jesus”by Dr. Franco Serafini, with explanations and photographic illustrations from several recent miracles. It is published by Sophia Institute Press, available from SophiaInstitute.com God bless Traditionalists for clinging to the Traditional Latin Mass, but not for refusing scientific evidence provided by the Sacred Heart for the salvation of souls.

    And what about receiving hosts supposedly consecrated at Novus Ordo Masses?
    Answer, perhaps best avoid them, because they can be invalid, and with time may be more and more so. However, in case of need you can receive such hosts, because they may also be valid.

    Kyrie eleison



    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Eleison Comments - EMERGENCY ADVICE – I Number (866)
    « Reply #1 on: February 19, 2024, 04:45:36 AM »
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  • This made me cringe and/or groan just about the whole time I was reading it. :facepalm: :pray:
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/


    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Eleison Comments - EMERGENCY ADVICE – I Number (866)
    « Reply #2 on: February 19, 2024, 09:14:16 AM »
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  • Does the Bishop give his best answers or his advice?
    I see his conclusions, his answers, all disputable, shaky.
    What people want is his advice, his direction, his leadership, solid, reliable.
    He is not able to provide the solid, commanding direction as he did of old.

    It’s time, I believe, to stop demanding of +Bp. Williamson that which he cannot provide.
    May I point out as I have once before, that he has aged and his health declined considerably in the last 7-8 years?  Don’t believe it?  Look online at his conferences and sermons from a decade ago and compare with his Sunday sermons over the last year.  
    Age is affecting him as it does everyone to a greater or lesser amount.  
    It is unfair and unkind to condemn him for not possessing the comparative vigor of Archbishop LeFebvre.  
    I think, too, he is often thinking of his ever quickly approaching judgement before Our Lord.  Perhaps he fears he has been too stern in the past in certain respects, or that he now fears making a rash and precipitous judgments and actions in old age. And when he did act, he did it privately so as to not drag others into unnecessary difficulty, leaving them to suffer ill consequences when he gone.  
    Remember, “you can’t give what you have” applies to the Bishop.
    Thank God for the tremendous good he has done, and pray for him.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Eleison Comments - EMERGENCY ADVICE – I Number (866)
    « Reply #3 on: February 19, 2024, 09:22:49 AM »
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  • Does the Bishop give his best answers or his advice?
    I see his conclusions, his answers, all disputable, shaky.
    What people want is his advice, his direction, his leadership, solid, reliable.
    He is not able to provide the solid, commanding direction as he did of old.

    It’s time, I believe, to stop demanding of +Bp. Williamson that which he cannot provide.
    May I point out as I have once before, that he has aged and his health declined considerably in the last 7-8 years?  Don’t believe it?  Look online at his conferences and sermons from a decade ago and compare with his Sunday sermons over the last year. 
    Age is affecting him as it does everyone to a greater or lesser amount. 
    It is unfair and unkind to condemn him for not possessing the comparative vigor of Archbishop LeFebvre. 
    I think, too, he is often thinking of his ever quickly approaching judgement before Our Lord.  Perhaps he fears he has been too stern in the past in certain respects, or that he now fears making a rash and precipitous judgments and actions in old age. And when he did act, he did it privately so as to not drag others into unnecessary difficulty, leaving them to suffer ill consequences when he gone. 
    Remember, “you can’t give what you have” applies to the Bishop.
    Thank God for the tremendous good he has done, and pray for him.
    Are his answers above really all that different than the answers he's always given?  
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Eleison Comments - EMERGENCY ADVICE – I Number (866)
    « Reply #4 on: February 19, 2024, 09:31:13 AM »
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  • #5 is really disturbing. I thought we are to avoid doubtful sacraments. Better to not receive them than to receive them doubtfully


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - EMERGENCY ADVICE – I Number (866)
    « Reply #5 on: February 19, 2024, 09:44:51 AM »
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  • #5 is really disturbing. I thought we are to avoid doubtful sacraments. Better to not receive them than to receive them doubtfully

    +Williamson needed to qualify the "in case of need".  Generally it is permitted to receive doubtful Sacraments in only one type of need ... danger of death when no other alternatives are available.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Eleison Comments - EMERGENCY ADVICE – I Number (866)
    « Reply #6 on: February 19, 2024, 10:05:38 AM »
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  • Quote
    +Williamson needed to qualify the "in case of need".
    Right.  As +W's view on miracles is too emotional, so is his leniency towards the people who reach out to him and "need" things from the novus ordo.  I'm sure he gets countless questions from people about the new mass, because they tell him they "need to go to daily communion" and their only option is the new mass.  I'm not saying the question is easy to answer, and I understand his compassion on these people, but the answer is that these people need to realize that "emotional needs" are not the primary purpose of religion.  If they think it is, then their relationship with God is too superficial and they need a deeper prayer life, apart from Mass.

    The mass is the best prayer, yes, but it isn't the only prayer.  We cannot go to doubtful masses.  This is canon law.  God knows these rules, He knows our situation, He knows our troubles.  That's why He gave us the Rosary, the most indulgenced prayer in the history of the Church.  There are countless ways to pray, all day long.  One should not "need" to go to doubtful masses to save his soul. 

    In fact, I'd argue that to sacrifice this "need" of daily mass, in place of greater Faith in God's daily, actual graces, is more pleasing to Him and of greater spiritual benefit.  God blesses those who are obedient, especially to the laws of the Church, which canon law is part of.  So those who shun the new mass - especially those who "feel" benefits from it - out of obedience and catholic principles, God will especially bless and protect.

    We live in a crisis.  A war zone.  Too many people forget this.  +W keeps missing opportunities to remind people of this fact.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - EMERGENCY ADVICE – I Number (866)
    « Reply #7 on: February 19, 2024, 11:16:42 AM »
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  • 1 To what extent is the Newchurch of Vatican II Catholic, and to what extent is it counterfeit?
    Answer, God alone knows, because He alone knows the secrets of men’s hearts, and the borderline between the true and the false Church often runs through men’s hearts, for instance whether or not they have the Catholic Faith. Since He alone can know for sure, then He does not expect us to know. However, He does give us sufficient means to know what we do need to know, and that is to judge by the fruits (cf. Mt. VII, 15–20). These will infallibly tell the difference, for instance, between true and false shepherds. Real joy and charity will reveal where the true Church still exists, even inside the Newchurch structures.

    I guess I just don't understand this.  Bishop Williamson hammered into me at STAS the error of subjectivism, and how it's at the root of the Vatican II errors, and it's precisely on the basis of those principles that HE inculcated in my thinking that I must object to some of his post.  This confuses me very much, since I find that his entire post here is thoroughly saturated with subjectivism.

    So, for the above, the question was not about whether some people in the Conciliar Church (Newchurch, as he calls it) still have the Catholic faith, are in material error only, and yet are still members of the Catholic Church ... but about to what extent NEWCHURCH itself is Catholic.

    So God alone knows ... "to what extent [Newchurch] is counterfeit"?  It's 100% counterfeit, lacks the marks of the One True Church of Christ, as Archbishop Lefebvre has publicly stated.  That's a completely separate question from whether certain individuals formally adhere to it or are merely materially in it.

    This answer strongly implies Protestant Invisible Church ecclesiology, the same ecclesiology taught by Vatican II, and the one rejected by Trent and even more strongly by St. Robert Bellarmine.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Eleison Comments - EMERGENCY ADVICE – I Number (866)
    « Reply #8 on: February 19, 2024, 12:15:15 PM »
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    So, for the above, the question was not about whether some people in the Conciliar Church (Newchurch, as he calls it) still have the Catholic faith, are in material error only, and yet are still members of the Catholic Church ... but about to what extent NEWCHURCH itself is Catholic.
    If +W admits the Conciliar Church is heretical, then he would have to argue why sedevacantism doesn't apply (in some form).  Doesn't sound like he wants to entertain the idea at all.

    Reading back through Fr Wathen's books, he says the Conciliar Church (and all the V2 popes) are undoubtedly heretical.  Fr Wathen yet still claims the pope is still the pope.  He doesn't delve into the theory much, but his argument is basically sedeprivationism, because Fr still says we must recognize the govt office, because a) the pope can only be judged by God, b) the Church officials haven't rule the pope as heretical or told us he's lost his office.

    +W's explanation of the "gray area" of the crisis is very cloudy and confusing.  He needs to accept Fr Wathen's or Fr Chazal's position, which is much more clear.  But it's probably too late to hope for any change.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - EMERGENCY ADVICE – I Number (866)
    « Reply #9 on: February 19, 2024, 03:03:33 PM »
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  • If +W admits the Conciliar Church is heretical, then he would have to argue why sedevacantism doesn't apply (in some form).  Doesn't sound like he wants to entertain the idea at all.

    See, that's the thing, I doubt that he would.  Archbishop Lefebvre stated that the Conciliar Church lacks the marks of the Catholic Church.  We're not talking about individuals within it who may just be in material error, but about Church as Church.  +Lefebvre qualified the remark by saying that to whatever extent people adhere to the Conciliar Church, they are no longer Catholic.  So +Lefebvre distinguished between the Church itself (non-Catholic) and individuals who may or may not formally adhere to it.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Eleison Comments - EMERGENCY ADVICE – I Number (866)
    « Reply #10 on: February 19, 2024, 03:23:44 PM »
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    See, that's the thing, I doubt that he would.  Archbishop Lefebvre stated that the Conciliar Church lacks the marks of the Catholic Church.
    And he's correct.

    Quote
    We're not talking about individuals within it who may just be in material error, but about Church as Church.
    +W is conflating people who still have the Faith, with the newChurch.  If they have the Faith, it's not because of the newChurch, obviously.  But +W's "rotten apple" analogy supposes that anything good comes from the True Church, even if the newChurch is rotten.  So +W is falsely concluding that Truth can still be had in the newChurch, while ignoring the poison contained in it.  ...There is truth in the Orthodox religions still, but can we give people the 'green light' to go there?  Obviously, no.  But +W doesn't want to label the newChurch as schismatic, which is 100% is.  And the newChurch is probably WORSE than Orthodoxy (at this point in time).

    Quote
    +Lefebvre qualified the remark by saying that to whatever extent people adhere to the Conciliar Church, they are no longer Catholic.  So +Lefebvre distinguished between the Church itself (non-Catholic) and individuals who may or may not formally adhere to it.
    Just like the Orthodox still has much truth, it contains schism and heresy.  God still gives graces to these people to convert, and some still do.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Eleison Comments - EMERGENCY ADVICE – I Number (866)
    « Reply #11 on: February 19, 2024, 04:18:45 PM »
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  • +W is conflating people who still have the Faith, with the newChurch. 

    Yes, he is ... which is my problem with the Question/Answer pair.  That could be the answer to a different question.