Author Topic: Eleison Comments CDXXXVI (436) Nov. 22, 2015 A.D. (Read 21568 times)

OldMerry · « **Reply #55 on:** November 23, 2015, 09:08:48 AM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Quote from: Clemens Maria
How can we be sure that the host came from a NO Mass? They just assumed that was the case.

Given the location and the date and the fact that the Cardinal was Cardinal Bergoglio, I think it's probably safe to say this. ;-)

Yes - quite so. We don't know that a stolen true Host from a traditional Latin Mass was not placed in the back of this NO church, and called "discarded" from a Mass that had been held there. Until we know this event actually happened described in this KE, and that this "host" was from a NO Mass, and even if the priest who "created" this host was even a truly ordained priest or not - whatever follows is irrelevant.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #56 on:** November 23, 2015, 09:10:37 AM »

It's a "fact" that the kids at Garabandal were levitating backwards up steep hills. It's a "fact" that someone found a piece of heart tissue somewhere. But is the devil incapable of creating levitation, obtaining a piece of heart tissue, and putting words and visions into someone's mind? Clearly not. So before we begin speculating on what "God" might be trying to communicate here, that conversation needs to go hand in hand with what the devil may have been trying to accomplish with this.

To me, the following scenario of a diabolical activity is just as likely as that God was trying to tell us something.

Let's assume that the New Mass is invalid and/or displeasing to God and that Bergoglio in his activities as Francis is not pleasing to God. But in order to cast doubt on this, the devil concocts this miracle in order to get people thinking that the New Mass might be valid/pleasing to God, that Bergoglio might be a holy man after all, that Traditional Catholicism which criticizes both the New Mass and Bergoglio might be false, and that Bishop Williamson should announce publicly to people that one might attend the New Mass under certain circuмstances. In that case, mission accomplished for the devil based upon the replies we see on this thread. Lots of damage done through the simple act of finding a piece of cardiac tissue somewhere.

2Vermont · « **Reply #57 on:** November 23, 2015, 09:11:14 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

Some sedevacantists (several in this thread) remind me of the Pharisees.

Our Lord could appear in person, as a beating heart, or anything else, and even the most spectacular of miracles would be attributed to... the devil. Sound familiar? That's exactly how the Pharisees justified rejecting Our Lord.

Both were stubborn, both were bitter. Both were stubborn even in the face of facts. When given the choice between their pet views and the facts, they went with their pet views!

Sedevacantism has never looked less attractive to me than it does right now. That "yuck" that I reject at Novus Ordo Watch *is* the essence of Sedevacantism. If Sedevacantism could become a website, it would become Novus Ordo Watch. Mocking, irreverent, disrespectful, bitter, negative, full of anger and hate, and obsessively seething at all times. Traditio is the same way. I think I've uncovered the essential "spirit" of sedevacantism.

I'm starting to see that the "good willed" sedevacantists are the exception. Because basically they have to somehow reject all those negative elements which are so common in the sedevacantist movement. I still understand why (humanly speaking) some people adopt this stance, but I still think it's more simplistic, and far inferior to recognize and resist.

I think Sedevacantism, as a solution to the Crisis, is the equivalent of curing the disease by killing the patient. Sure, all the "mess" and "hassle" is solved, but your patient is never going to recover now! You've torpedoed the very foundation of authority, and it's not coming back. Now every sede has to be his own pope, in love with his own opinions. And you'll never get them to agree long enough to elect a pope or anything else for that matter.

I think there's something dangerous, giving men the de-facto power to decide all matters. It's like the tree in the Garden of Eden -- opening their eyes, "to be as gods". It's one of those things you can't turn back the clock on. It's intoxicating to take the reins of the Church and direct things for yourself (deciding what to reject and accept).

THIS is what people mean when they say Sedevacantism isn't Catholic. It's the mindset. That Catholic spirit that +Lefebvre was so good at preserving and trasmitting is exactly what the sedes lack. It doesn't mean they're not Catholic, but their mindset is lacking something that Catholics normally have.

They're not non-Catholic, they're defective Catholics. Just speaking objectively here, this isn't personal against any of the sedes here on CI (though I just *know* they're all going to react).

2Vermont · « **Reply #58 on:** November 23, 2015, 09:13:57 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

It's a "fact" that the kids at Garabandal were levitating backwards up steep hills. It's a "fact" that someone found a piece of heart tissue somewhere. But is the devil incapable of creating levitation, obtaining a piece of heart tissue, and putting words and visions into someone's mind? Clearly not. So before we begin speculating on what "God" might be trying to communicate here, that conversation needs to go hand in hand with what the devil may have been trying to accomplish with this.

To me, the following scenario of a diabolical activity is just as likely as that God was trying to tell us something.

Let's assume that the New Mass is invalid and/or displeasing to God and that Bergoglio in his activities as Francis is not pleasing to God. But in order to cast doubt on this, the devil concocts this miracle in order to get people thinking that the New Mass might be valid/pleasing to God, that Bergoglio might be a holy man after all, that Traditional Catholicism which criticizes both the New Mass and Bergoglio might be false, and that Bishop Williamson should announce publicly to people that one might attend the New Mass under certain circuмstances. In that case, mission accomplished for the devil based upon the replies we see on this thread. Lots of damage done through the simple act of finding a piece of cardiac tissue somewhere.

:applause:

covet truth · « **Reply #59 on:** November 23, 2015, 09:14:00 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

if God were to work a miracle in relation to the New Mass, this would entail a tacit endorsement of the New Mass ... which IMO He would not do if it indeed displeases Him. Let me repeat. We do NOT draw theological conclusions from these things and they must be ignored.

Again, you know this how? How do you know "what it means"? You're making it up. It's pure speculation. And, as such, it's utterly worthless.

I couldn't say it better so I'll let your own words speak for me.