Author Topic: Eleison Comments CDXXXVI (436) Nov. 22, 2015 A.D.  (Read 15842 times)

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Offline Miseremini

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Eleison Comments CDXXXVI (436) Nov. 22, 2015 A.D.
« on: November 21, 2015, 06:04:21 PM »
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  • Number CDXXXVI (436)
     
     November 21, 2015
     
     
    Novus Ordo Missae – I
    God has worked miracles with the N.O. Mass?
    That’s what the evidence suggests. Alas?

    “Facts are stubborn things,” is a famous quote of the United States’ second President, John Adams (1735–1826), “and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” Concerning the New Order of Mass imposed upon the entire Latin Rite Church by Paul VI in 1969, there are some stubborn facts, apt to perturb the “wishes and inclinations” of Catholics cleaving to Catholic Tradition. Let successive issues of these “Comments” first of all present some of these facts; secondly let us see how they may be explained in view of the disastrous role played over the last 46 years by the NOM in helping Catholics to lose the Faith, and thirdly let us deliberate as to what conclusions a wise Catholic needs to draw. First of all, some facts:—

    On august 18, 1996, in St Mary’s parish church in the centre of Buenos Aires, Argentina, Fr Alejandro Pezet was finishing distributing communion (of a new Mass, for sure) when a woman told him of a discarded host at the back of the church. A parishioner having received communion in the hand must have dropped it on their way out of church and abandoned it as being too dirty to be consumed off the floor. Fr Pezet picked it up, put it correctly in a vase of water and placed it in the tabernacle where in a few days it would normally dissolve and could be properly disposed of. However, when on August 26 he opened the tabernacle, what was his surprise to find that the host had turned into a bloody substance. Photographs taken on Bishop Bergoglio’s orders 11 days later showed that it had significantly increased in size. For three years it was kept under strict secret in the tabernacle, but in 1999 then Archbishop Bergoglio decided to carry out a scientific analysis. On October 15, 1999, in the presence of witnesses he allowed Dr Ricardo Castañon, a neuro-psycho physiologist approved of by Rome , to take a sample for testing.

    Dr Castañon took the sample firstly to a forensic laboratory in San Francisco which recognized human ADN. A Dr Robert Lawrence located white globules. A Dr. Ardonidoli in Italy thought it was probably heart tissue. An Australian Professor, John Walker, recognized muscular tissue with white globules intact.

    To remove all doubt Dr Castañon resorted to a renowned cardiologist and forensic pathologist from Columbia University, New York, Dr Federico Zugibe,without telling him where the specimen came from.

    Looking down his microscope Dr Zugibe is quoted as having said, “I can tell you exactly what it is. It is part of the muscle found in the wall of the heart’s left ventricle which makes the heart beat and gives the body its life. Intermingled in the tissue are white blood-cells, which tells me firstly that the heart was alive at the moment when the sample was taken because white blood-cells die outside of a living organism, and secondly that white cells go to the aid of an injury, so this heart has suffered. This is the sort of thing I see in patients who have been beaten about the chest.” When asked how long these cells would have remained alive had they come from a sample kept in water, DrZugibe replied that they would have ceased to exist in a matter of minutes.

    When in June of 1976 Archbishop lefebvre was on the brink of ordaining the first large batch of SSPX priests despite Rome’s disapproval, a Roman official came to promise him the end of all problems with Rome if only he would celebrate one NOM. On principle, for doctrinal reasons, he refused. Then how can Almighty God have worked eucharistic miracles with and for this new Mass? Read here next week a suggested answer.

    Kyrie eleison.
     
     
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Eleison Comments CDXXXVI (436) Nov. 22, 2015 A.D.
    « Reply #1 on: November 21, 2015, 06:15:11 PM »
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  • .

    So much for the Mohammedan menace.  We're taking two weeks for Newmass Eucharistic miracles.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Emitte Lucem Tuam

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    Eleison Comments CDXXXVI (436) Nov. 22, 2015 A.D.
    « Reply #2 on: November 21, 2015, 06:37:07 PM »
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  • Diabolical disorientation is BOTH physical and spiritual.  For Bp. Williamson to even hint at believing the miracle of transubstantiation is based and proved on microscopes, scientists, glasses of water, etc. in the heretical Novus Ordo (and the Catholic Mass) is distressing in the least and blasphemous at the most.  The Novus Ordo "mass" (service) has already exposed itself as non-Catholic and thus any scientific "support" or intimation of so-called "miracles" and transubstantiation within the Novus Ordo "mass" (service) is a bold-faced lie and satanic.  What this woman found on the floor was nothing more than a piece of unleavened bread.  Nothing more.

    Offline Matthew

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    Eleison Comments CDXXXVI (436) Nov. 22, 2015 A.D.
    « Reply #3 on: November 21, 2015, 07:06:38 PM »
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  • Quote from: Emitte Lucem Tuam
    Diabolical disorientation is BOTH physical and spiritual.  For Bp. Williamson to even hint at believing the miracle of transubstantiation is based and proved on microscopes, scientists, glasses of water, etc. in the heretical Novus Ordo (and the Catholic Mass) is distressing in the least and blasphemous at the most.  The Novus Ordo "mass" (service) has already exposed itself as non-Catholic and thus any scientific "support" or intimation of so-called "miracles" and transubstantiation within the Novus Ordo "mass" (service) is a bold-faced lie and satanic.  What this woman found on the floor was nothing more than a piece of unleavened bread.  Nothing more.


    Say it a couple more times and you might convince yourself.

    I see a problem with the "Novus Ordo Watch" crowd, whose love and defense of Tradition is dependent on the Novus Ordo being completely invalid. I never saw the need to go to this extreme.

    I think some might adopt this position out of anger for being deceived and kept from the truth for so long. They are angry for having their birthright stolen for so many years, and all the pains it caused (having to deal with the Novus Ordo) including many effects lasting to the present day. To give just one example: a man who was mired in the novus ordo for years might have ended up marrying a novus ordo woman, with all the consequences that would come from that. Perhaps she hasn't converted yet, and is still duped by those bad guys, for extra angst!

    I'm not mocking these feelings; they are real and understandable. I'm just spelling them out here because I'm sure this is the "backstory" of countless Trads you'll meet.

    There's *got* to be, on a human level, a certain amount of resentment for what happened to the Church, especially when its effects hit so close to home. How you raise your children, how many children you have, feminism, the whole nine yards. The consequences of going along with the Novus Ordo are LEGION (get it? a legion of devils?)

    But I am saying this: as a life-long Trad, I don't carry any such baggage, and so I can be a bit more objective about things like the Novus Ordo. If it turns out to be valid, fine. If it turns out to be invalid, fine. Either way, I know for a fact it destroys souls, so it is to be avoided at all costs (even at the cost of having NOWHERE to attend Mass, even once a year!)

    Start your Amazon.com session by clicking this link, and my family and I get a commission on your purchase!

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Eleison Comments CDXXXVI (436) Nov. 22, 2015 A.D.
    « Reply #4 on: November 21, 2015, 07:06:55 PM »
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  • When we talk about NO mass, we have to distinguish between the consecration and the mass as a whole.  Theoretically, the consecration can be valid, so there can be transubstantiation, just like at a black mass the consecration can be valid, so that satanists can blaspheme God to the highest degree.

    But, even when the consecration is valid, this doesn't necessarily mean that the MASS is valid.  Certainly not!  For the consecration is PART of the mass, it is not the definition of the mass.  If all it takes to have a holy, pleasing and valid mass is to have a valid consecration, then why do we have an offertory and a communion?  Because a proper Mass requires an all 3 parts!

    I will wait to see the next 2 parts, but + Williamson's starting argument isn't good.


    Offline Miseremini

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    Eleison Comments CDXXXVI (436) Nov. 22, 2015 A.D.
    « Reply #5 on: November 21, 2015, 07:59:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: Pax Vobis
     Theoretically, the consecration can be valid, so there can be transubstantiation, just like at a black mass the consecration can be valid, so that satanists can blaspheme God to the highest degree.


    I've never been to a black mass, BUT I understand to have a black mass they have to have a consecrated host to perform the sacrilage.
    How could a satanist do a consecration unless he was a valid priest?
    I don't believe Our Lord becomes present at the whim of a satanist !
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Online Clemens Maria

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    Eleison Comments CDXXXVI (436) Nov. 22, 2015 A.D.
    « Reply #6 on: November 21, 2015, 08:39:50 PM »
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  • How can we be sure that the host came from a NO Mass?  They just assumed that was the case.

    Offline NatusAdMaiora

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    Eleison Comments CDXXXVI (436) Nov. 22, 2015 A.D.
    « Reply #7 on: November 21, 2015, 08:59:21 PM »
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  • Offline Recusant Sede

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    Eleison Comments CDXXXVI (436) Nov. 22, 2015 A.D.
    « Reply #8 on: November 21, 2015, 09:18:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: NatusAdMaiora
    Here is the link

    https://www.youtube.com/embed/3gPAbD43fTI



    Yes, let's believe what the pro-homo modernists tell us, let's trust them. At our own peril. To tell you the truth it looked like mold to me, not even remotely resembling the eucharistic miracle of  Lanciano.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Eleison Comments CDXXXVI (436) Nov. 22, 2015 A.D.
    « Reply #9 on: November 21, 2015, 09:25:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: Recusant Sede
    I'll suggest an answer, bishop Williamson, maybe your facts are wrong. Where are your sources for this? Bergoglio? Other modernists?


    I wonder this too, especially considering the 3-year gap between the alleged miracle and their decision to investigate. I would like to know at what point in time all of this information was released to the public.

    But...

    Quote
    If the NO service is a source of miracles, is valid and is apparently a source of graces, why doesn't he celebrate it? The man is a serious danger with talk like this.


    I don't think it changes the practical application of how we should react to the N.O. We all know what a disaster it is and even a valid consecration wouldn't eliminate the many reasons to avoid N.O. Masses.
    "If I could only make the faithful sing the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei ... that would be to me the finest triumph sacred music could have, for it is in really taking part in the liturgy that the faithful will preserve their devotion. I would take the Tantum ...

    Offline ihsv

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    Eleison Comments CDXXXVI (436) Nov. 22, 2015 A.D.
    « Reply #10 on: November 21, 2015, 09:43:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Miseremini
    I've never been to a black mass, BUT I understand to have a black mass they have to have a consecrated host to perform the sacrilage.
    How could a satanist do a consecration unless he was a valid priest?
    I don't believe Our Lord becomes present at the whim of a satanist !


    There are black masses and then there are black masses.  Most of the time a stolen, pre-consecrated host is used.  However, a true, hard-core Satanic black mass requires a valid priest.  

    Not that I would recommend it (for a number of reasons), but Malachi Martin's "Hostage to the Devil" details one such true black mass, and it involved an apostate priest.  Every rubric and word was done backwards, except for the consecration, which was done quite correctly.  What followed is unfit for print.

    In such a case, the consecration was indeed valid, but it was not offered as a sacrifice.  Not to God, at any rate.
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed


    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Eleison Comments CDXXXVI (436) Nov. 22, 2015 A.D.
    « Reply #11 on: November 21, 2015, 09:48:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    Quote from: Recusant Sede
    I'll suggest an answer, bishop Williamson, maybe your facts are wrong. Where are your sources for this? Bergoglio? Other modernists?


    I wonder this too, especially considering the 3-year gap between the alleged miracle and their decision to investigate. I would like to know at what point in time all of this information was released to the public.

    But...

    Quote
    If the NO service is a source of miracles, is valid and is apparently a source of graces, why doesn't he celebrate it? The man is a serious danger with talk like this.


    I don't think it changes the practical application of how we should react to the N.O. We all know what a disaster it is and even a valid consecration wouldn't eliminate the many reasons to avoid N.O. Masses.


    But he believes that it is truly a miracle and if it really is, then God is saying that this service is holy and should be celebrated by all priests. That would be the only purpose that I can think of why God would allow a miracle to take place. Ergo, the NO is good and holy. But we all know it is intrinsically evil. Just one example is the heretical falsification of Christ's words from "for many" to "for all men".

    Offline ihsv

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    Eleison Comments CDXXXVI (436) Nov. 22, 2015 A.D.
    « Reply #12 on: November 21, 2015, 09:58:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: Recusant Sede

    But he believes that it is truly a miracle and if it really is, then God is saying that this service is holy and should be celebrated by all priests. That would be the only purpose that I can think of why God would allow a miracle to take place. Ergo, the NO is good and holy. But we all know it is intrinsically evil. Just one example is the heretical falsification of Christ's words from "for many" to "for all men".


    Not at all.  There was a story once of a Jewess who, in order to obtain money for her ill husband's surgery, agreed to obtain a consecrated host and deliver it to some wealthier of her kind.  Having stolen the host and making the exchange, her compatriots proceeded to cut it with a knife.  The host began to bleed at once.  In this case, the miracle was meant to confound the sacrilegious acts of these men.  

    IF the purported miracle that +Williamson speaks of is true, the only thing it means is that that particular consecration was valid.  It means nothing more.  It is neither a seal of approval of the New Mass, nor is it a vindication of the new religion.

    And in terms of the validity of the consecration of the New Mass, I have no idea whether it's valid or not.  My objections to it are much deeper than that.  
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline OldMerry

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    Eleison Comments CDXXXVI (436) Nov. 22, 2015 A.D.
    « Reply #13 on: November 21, 2015, 10:13:02 PM »
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  • I, for one, am so glad that the response to this KE has been alarm and disbelief amongst you.  I had a couple of thoughts.  That this happened under Bishop Bergolio (or whatever he was), a Marxist/Communist, who only this week, still has traditional Catholicism as a giant burr and target under his saddle, is a huge red light.  He has more angst against "rigid" priests than child-abusing gay ones.  (Wonder why.)  He has a real "THING" against the Church.  And now he is top hater and destroyer (if possible). This whole account in KE is quite capable of being a set up, specifically and exactly to attempt proving the point (or selling the idea) of the Novus Ordo "Host" being valid.  With these enemies of Christ, and about such a subject, anything can be said.  Anyone can be paid off.  Any result can come if these evil people put their mind to it to make it happen.  That said, even if the NO consecration is valid it is still an illicit "Mass" and - to top it off - such things as "Our Lord" being discarded in the back of the church, is blown on by in a rush to prove that a NO "Host" is Our Lord.  Imagine discarding Him - one shouldn't even be present where such sacrilegious happenings are so prone.  Now, having said all this, is not Bishop Williamson a convert?  Does he not have a proclivity (weakness?) towards - maybe not sensationalism, but let's say, mysticism?  Personally, I think prudence would have dictated that he just have left this subject/happening alone, rather than letting out any plus points in favor of the Novus Ordo, as now people are tempted to attend it since "Our Lord is there" according to this story.  People should be discouraged from attending it - forbidden, even.  The theory of Our Lord present at the NO could be bandied about maybe privately, but for the sake of some kind of full disclosure, to air out this occurrence, is not in the best interests of souls and is not the best "good shepherding."            

    Offline Stubborn

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    Eleison Comments CDXXXVI (436) Nov. 22, 2015 A.D.
    « Reply #14 on: November 22, 2015, 04:57:02 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: Emitte Lucem Tuam
    Diabolical disorientation is BOTH physical and spiritual.  For Bp. Williamson to even hint at believing the miracle of transubstantiation is based and proved on microscopes, scientists, glasses of water, etc. in the heretical Novus Ordo (and the Catholic Mass) is distressing in the least and blasphemous at the most.  The Novus Ordo "mass" (service) has already exposed itself as non-Catholic and thus any scientific "support" or intimation of so-called "miracles" and transubstantiation within the Novus Ordo "mass" (service) is a bold-faced lie and satanic.  What this woman found on the floor was nothing more than a piece of unleavened bread.  Nothing more.


    Say it a couple more times and you might convince yourself.

    I see a problem with the "Novus Ordo Watch" crowd, whose love and defense of Tradition is dependent on the Novus Ordo being completely invalid. I never saw the need to go to this extreme.

    I think some might adopt this position out of anger for being deceived and kept from the truth for so long. They are angry for having their birthright stolen for so many years, and all the pains it caused (having to deal with the Novus Ordo) including many effects lasting to the present day. To give just one example: a man who was mired in the novus ordo for years might have ended up marrying a novus ordo woman, with all the consequences that would come from that. Perhaps she hasn't converted yet, and is still duped by those bad guys, for extra angst!

    I'm not mocking these feelings; they are real and understandable. I'm just spelling them out here because I'm sure this is the "backstory" of countless Trads you'll meet.

    There's *got* to be, on a human level, a certain amount of resentment for what happened to the Church, especially when its effects hit so close to home. How you raise your children, how many children you have, feminism, the whole nine yards. The consequences of going along with the Novus Ordo are LEGION (get it? a legion of devils?)

    But I am saying this: as a life-long Trad, I don't carry any such baggage, and so I can be a bit more objective about things like the Novus Ordo. If it turns out to be valid, fine. If it turns out to be invalid, fine. Either way, I know for a fact it destroys souls, so it is to be avoided at all costs (even at the cost of having NOWHERE to attend Mass, even once a year!)


    This.

    There is no way to know if all NO transubstantiations are invalid or not, imo the one +Williamson is talking about was likely one of the valid ones.

    The Host turning into blood imo is not a sign of God's pleasure, forgetting for the moment that they found Our Lord dirty and discarded, more likely it is a sign of the broken Sacred Heart of Our Lord from the profane and sacrilegious offerings that Our Lord is subjected to in every NO "mass". Could also be a prophetic sign of the pain that Our Lord would experience during the reign of the current pope. It could be a lot of things, none of which bode well for the NO imo.



     
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

     

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