Author Topic: Defending Valtorta (Read 28275 times)

TKGS · « **Reply #15 on:** September 15, 2015, 10:42:43 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: TKGS
it's quite another thing to declare the pre-Vatican 2 Holy Office to be in error.

Yep. Although, if an Ecuмenical Council can be disregarded, why not the Holy Office?

Let's not derail the topic. Vatican 2 is an heretical robber-council.

hollingsworth · « **Reply #16 on:** September 15, 2015, 10:51:16 AM »

TKGS:

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Frankly, Bishop Williamson's promotion of a book placed on The Index was the reason I stopped listening to Bishop Williamson as a credible counselor on matters of the faith and of tradition.

I can't really speak to this Index thing with a lot of knowledge. But I think there may be more to the story than meets the eye. You might check sites like http://www.drbo.org/valtorta.htm In any case, I won't argue with you or others about the Poem. I will simply declare shamelessly, unabashedly, triumphantly that Maria Valtorta was inspired by God. Her works are magnificent, God-breathed, sublime, not to mention great works of literature. I can't say anything about the translation from Italian in the newer edition. But, hopefully, it's good too, or at least adequate. There are not a whole lot of copies out there of the original editions. The ones that are available can be priced up over $100, and that is not even necessarily in mint condition.

Croixalist · « **Reply #17 on:** September 15, 2015, 10:52:46 AM »

Quote from: hollingsworth

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Nothing that feminizes Christ and the Apostles will stand the test of time. This is one of the few times Bishop Williamson gets it completely wrong.

We read the Poem each day religiously. A friend gave us two volumes of the older edition. We purchased three others (of the original edition) online. (Copies of the old editions are scarce and pretty expensive too) One can easily purchase online the latest edition 10 volume set today at a reasonable price. We read them as we do the Bible, and make no apology for it. They are inspired of God, I am persuaded. There is no feminization of Christ and the Apostles in any of these books. Bp. Williamson gets it completely right.

I have read far more than I ever needed to and there's nothing at this point that will ever change my mind. There's a woman back at my chapel who is a huge fan of Valtorta's and I basically told her to back off on that subject with me. We get along fine besides that point, so it's manageable. It's somewhat understandable coming from a woman because from what I have seen of her writings, Valtorta seems to be one of those ladies who really doesn't get how true affection works between men.

There's so much girlish fawning, gazing and light touching that it curdles my imagination. Where is the proper admiration and respect, reverence and awe of what Our Lord says and does? Where is the natural reserve that results from it? Where is the look of willingness to perform one's duties with strength and honor? No thanks girl-faced John! How about the look of a son instead of a lover? I hope you see where I'm coming from here. It's objectively offensive to me.

Perhaps it's a vestige of being brought up in a feminist-dominated culture where men become mysteries even unto themselves, but I can't for the life of me figure out why any guy would go for this stuff. I know what you're trying to tell me, it just doesn't match with my reality.

At some point, all of us who have some favorite private revelation have to make a decision to make it the be-all end-all of our spiritual lives. Even if it has been deemed worthy of belief, we still can't allow ourselves to get too bent out of shape if others don't go along with it. The Poem of the Man-God and those who promote it seem to demand way more than they have a right to ask.

hollingsworth · « **Reply #18 on:** September 15, 2015, 12:40:33 PM »

croixalist:

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At some point, all of us who have some favorite private revelation have to make a decision to make it the be-all end-all of our spiritual lives. Even if it has been deemed worthy of belief, we still can't allow ourselves to get too bent out of shape if others don't go along with it. The Poem of the Man-God and those who promote it seem to demand way more than they have a right to ask.

You've got it all wrong, croix. None of us has to make a decision about "private revelation." We either believe it, or we don't. I never paused to make a decision before taking up the works of Maria Valtorta. I simply picked up Volume 1 one day and started to read. I concluded that it was a "Poem" from God. No one makes a conscious decision to accept or reject this private revelation. I don't get "bent out of shape" at all if others don't agree with it. I honestly couldn't care less what you or anybody else believes about the Poem.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #19 on:** September 15, 2015, 12:58:39 PM »

Quote from: Croixalist

There's so much girlish fawning, gazing and light touching that it curdles my imagination. Where is the proper admiration and respect, reverence and awe of what Our Lord says and does? Where is the natural reserve that results from it? Where is the look of willingness to perform one's duties with strength and honor? No thanks girl-faced John! How about the look of a son instead of a lover? I hope you see where I'm coming from here. It's objectively offensive to me.

It's objectively offensive period. Any Catholic with a half-decent true (vs. counterfeit emotional) spirituality sees where you're "coming from here".

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #20 on:** September 15, 2015, 01:15:31 PM »

.

Substantive criticism ought to include a seven-point list of reasons to disregard this work of literature for its shortcomings.

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Let these reasons be the briefest of summaries of the seven reasons given supposedly by Our Lord at the end of the “Poem” for his having revealed its contents to Maria Valtorta:—

1 Doctrine – while modernism wreaks havoc with the Church’s unchanging teaching, souls need to see how I gave the selfsame teaching to the Church, from the start: divine, perfect, immutable.

2 Love – when charity is growing cold and sentimental, priests and layfolk need their love for Christ and for all that c oncerns Christ to be re-awakened, especially for his Mother.

3 Direction – when souls are going astray in so many different directions, spiritual directors need to see in how many different ways I looked after them.

4 Reality – when love is so widely falsified and sullied, human beings need to see Jesus and Mary as true human beings of flesh and blood, with a perfect love, but truly human, between them.

5 Suffering – when comfort everywhere comes first, pleasure-seekers need to know how long and varied were the sufferings of my Mother and myself, starting tens of years before the Passion.

6 Word – when language is utterly debased, people need to see the power of my Word, of my words, to transform souls, e.g. from rough sinners into great Apostles.

7 Judas – when evil is so sentimentalized as to be denied, sinners must be shown the mystery of iniquity in human form, so as not to follow Judas to Hell.

Kyri e eleison.

So, who has the opposition's 7-item list?

It seems to me that the mysteries of God and His promise of our ultimate comprehension of them in eternity ought to be a higher level of goal than what is touched on in The Poem. What benefit could there be to modern man in a work that banalizes the eternal and turns the reader's attention toward materialism, instead of toward the infinite perfection and goodness of God?

When it is fallen human nature to focus on material things (and Protestant too, BTW), and then along comes modernity all the more drawing man's attention away from Godly things and toward temporal things of this world, it is only logical to suppose that works of literature that overturn that trend and instead, turn man's attention toward the great promise of seeing God with vision clear (instead of through a lens darkly) would be much more beneficial for us in this age.

.

JPaul · « **Reply #21 on:** September 15, 2015, 01:43:08 PM »

Oh dear, more of this. One more EC that no one really needed to read or hear.
I might suggest that this be locked as it is a distraction from important things such as the Church being pulverized by its enemy, the Demons in the flesh.

Can a subjective defense of the false council be far behind?

The follies of Bishop Fellay and Bishop Williamson are not worth the time and the disappointment which they cause.

Lord have mercy upon us.

Adolphus · « **Reply #22 on:** September 15, 2015, 02:14:04 PM »

Quote from: TKGS

Quote from: hollingsworth
We read the Poem each day religiously. A friend gave us two volumes of the older edition. We purchased three others (of the original edition) online. (Copies of the old editions are scarce and pretty expensive too) One can easily purchase online the latest edition 10 volume set today at a reasonable price. We read them as we do the Bible, and make no apology for it. They are inspired of God, I am persuaded. There is no feminization of Christ and the Apostles in any of these books. Bp. Williamson gets it completely right.

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«the Poem was put on the Church’s Index of forbidden books in the 1950’s, which was before Rome went neo-modernist in the 1960’s»

Let's see. hollingsworth...Holy Office...hollingsworth...Holy Office.

Rats! I just can't figure out whom to trust.

Frankly, Bishop Williamson's promotion of a book placed on The Index was the reason I stopped listening to Bishop Williamson as a credible counselor on matters of the faith and of tradition. It's one thing to air disagreements over issues that have come up since the Vatican council of the 1960s and the general apostasy of Rome; it's quite another thing to declare the pre-Vatican 2 Holy Office to be in error.

Yes. On one side: Fr. Bea (later Card. Bea), Bp. Williamson, Hollingsworth...

On the other side: Card. Ottaviani, Abp. Lefebvre, the Holy Office.

Oh, what a tough decision...

hollingsworth · « **Reply #23 on:** September 15, 2015, 03:24:17 PM »

ladislaus:

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It's objectively offensive period. Any Catholic with a half-decent true (vs. counterfeit emotional) spirituality sees where you're "coming from here".

Lad, we all strive mightily to emulate your "half-decent true..sprituality." Sometimes we fail. Alas, some of us, including a bishop, fall into in-decent untrue spirituality from time to time. We vow to do better in the future, and make you proud of us once again. :rolleyes:

2Vermont · « **Reply #24 on:** September 15, 2015, 05:08:32 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: 2Vermont
Still no discussion about the SSPX priests and the Year of Mercy announcement. Why?

Exactly. He has nothing better to write about?

Last week I heard the excuse that his EC's are written in advance. OK, so last week I can understand his not addressing it. But another week later? Not buying it.

Croixalist · « **Reply #25 on:** September 16, 2015, 08:13:52 AM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Last week I heard the excuse that his EC's are written in advance. OK, so last week I can understand his not addressing it. But another week later? Not buying it.

Probably because he'd just be repeating "Relentless Romans" for the most part.

Their technique is like increasingly wild temperature swings, getting both hotter and colder to the point where cracks start to form in the middle of the road, which quickly turn to potholes, then to gaping sinkholes, until the entire continent finally crumbles beneath the ocean!

Maybe that was overly dramatic.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #26 on:** September 16, 2015, 10:53:02 AM »

.

In retrospect, this thread title says it all, if punctuation was missing, i.e., one question mark and an exclamation point:

Defending Valtorta? Kyrie Eleison!

.

CathMomof7 · « **Reply #27 on:** September 22, 2015, 07:43:39 AM »

I haven't read this, but this is a review from Tradition in Action.

Review of Poem of the Man-God

If these quotes are from the book, I find them utterly revolting.

Not for me.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #28 on:** September 22, 2015, 09:40:55 AM »

Quote from: CathMomof7

I haven't read this, but this is a review from Tradition in Action.

Review of Poem of the Man-God

If these quotes are from the book, I find them utterly revolting.

Not for me.

Indeed. This alone should be the death-knell against Valtorta for anyone who has any Catholic faith whatsoever:

Quote

Jesus suggests a love-affair between St. Peter and Our Lady

Jesus even jokes with impropriety with his apostles. Here, Jesus stands up and calls out loudly and angrily to Peter:

“‘Come here, you usurper and corrupter!’
“‘Me? Why? What have I done, Lord?’
“‘You have corrupted My Mother. That is why you wanted to be alone. What shall I do with you?’
“Jesus smiles and Peter recovers his confidence. ‘You really frightened me! Now You are laughing.” (Vol. II, n. 199, p. 185)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #29 on:** September 22, 2015, 10:07:21 AM »

I'm sorry to say this, but if Bishop Williamson finds no problem with the passages below, then is it any wonder that Urrutigoity (later with the Society of St. John) found a protector in Bishop Williamson and got away with similar behavior right under his nose?

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When Valtorta describes the “favorite” Apostle John as having the face of a young girl with the “gaze of a lover,” we can hardly avoid having the impression that they have a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ relationship. Here Jesus is kissing John to awaken him:

“Jesus bends and kisses the cheek of John, who opens his eyes and is dumbfounded at seeing Jesus. He sits up and says, ‘Do you need me? Here I am.’ …

“John, half naked in his under-tunic, because he used his tunic and mantle as bed covers, clasps Jesus’ neck and lays his head between Jesus’ shoulder and cheek.”

After John professes his belief and love in Jesus as Son of God, “he smiles and weeps, panting, inflamed by his love, relaxing on Jesus’ chest, as if he were exhausted by his ardor. And Jesus caresses him, burning with love Himself.

Urrutigoity was known to slip into bed naked with young men. Perhaps he was influenced (or at least rationalized justification) in Valtorta? Is that why Urrutigoity named his society after St. John?