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Author Topic: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism  (Read 27114 times)

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Offline Marulus Fidelis

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You say that it is a masterclass of deceit that I present you as disrespecting the traditional order, while I reject the traditional order.

But.....Sedevacantist doctrine is not part of the traditional order. It never has been. Sedevacantist doctrine is a novelty, and therefore not binding on anyone.

You set yourself up as a priest or bishop would - as the final arbiter of what is Catholic, and you believe your pronouncements as binding on all who hear or read them. Since when is it "traditional" for a layman to bind anyone? Well, in the Church of Vatican ll, the layman is God, and it is laymen who will save us. Our Lord only has a secondary role in our salvation, in the Church of Vatican ll. You have that in common with the Modernists.
The so-called sedevacantist doctrine is just the Catholic belief in the papacy.

I'm not setting myself up as anything and even if I was an independent bishop my words wouldn't be binding as you seem to think (you may as well be Orthodox, they have the most bishops who don't submit to the Pope like you).

How you can continue to disingenuously present this as if I am speaking of my own authority and not merely repeating Church teaching is really an indictment of your bad will.

Who gave you, a lay woman, the authority to reject approved liturgical rites?

Who gave you, a lay woman, the authority to reject an ecuмenical council?

Who gave you, a lay woman, the authority to reject solemnly promulgated canon law?

Who gave you, a lay woman, the authority to reject the governing authority of the Supreme Pontiff?

You are condemned out of your own mouth.

Offline Mark 79

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The so-called sedevacantist doctrine is just the Catholic belief in the papacy.

I'm not setting myself up as anything and even if I was an independent bishop my words wouldn't be binding as you seem to think (you may as well be Orthodox, they have the most bishops who don't submit to the Pope like you).

How you can continue to disingenuously present this as if I am speaking of my own authority and not merely repeating Church teaching is really an indictment of your bad will.

Who gave you, a lay woman, the authority to reject approved liturgical rites?

Who gave you, a lay woman, the authority to reject an ecuмenical council?

Who gave you, a lay woman, the authority to reject solemnly promulgated canon law?

Who gave you, a lay woman, the authority to reject the governing authority of the Supreme Pontiff?

You are condemned out of your own mouth.
Nailed it –BUT— There are none so blind as those who will not see.


Offline Meg

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The so-called sedevacantist doctrine is just the Catholic belief in the papacy.

It is in reality a novel and distorted view of the papacy. 
"It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

~St. Robert Bellarmine
De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

Offline Giovanni Berto

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The Sede vs. R&R debate has no end.

I am not a fan of either. Both seem somewhat unsatisfactory to me.

Will I be condemned if I don't pick one?

By men surely, on both sides of the fence, but I don't think that the good Lord will close the doors to Heaven if I don't make a clear and final decision on this matter.



Offline Marulus Fidelis

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The Sede vs. R&R debate has no end.

I am not a fan of either. Both seem somewhat unsatisfactory to me.

Will I be condemned if I don't pick one?

By men surely, on both sides of the fence, but I don't think that the good Lord will close the doors to Heaven if I don't make a clear and final decision on this matter.
Here's a detailed definition of schism that should clear up any doubts. Notice the underlined parts.

Quote
The sense and the scope of schism. The requirement for determining at law the delict of pure schism is: I. that someone withdraw from the sphere of authority [obedientia] of the Roman Pontiff and separate himself from the ecclesiastical communion of the other faithful, either directly or expressly or indirectly or with implicit or tacit consent [factis concludentibus], even if he may not attach himself to a separated schismatic sect; — II. that the withdrawal be connected with pertinacity or rebellion; — III. that the withdrawal be done with respect to those things on which the unity of the Church is founded; — IV. notwithstanding formal disobedience and denial of being subordinate, that the schismatic acknowledge that the aforementioned Roman Pontiff is the true pastor of the universal Church and that obedience must be offered to him in accordance with the teaching of the faith: but if he says [the Pope] is not [the true pastor of the universal Church], heresy will be added as an ingredient to schism.
Wherefore the delict of schism, in the strict sense, is not committed by him who withdraws from his own bishop and from the communion of the faithful of his own diocese, but [by him who] refuses to be under the Roman Pontiff and to be in communion with the rest of the faithful of the universal Church. Nor is someone determined to be a schismatic by means of a simple transgression of pontifical law; otherwise, all violators of universal ecclesiastical laws would also prove to be schismatics — something that is plainly absurd. Finally, those cannot be regarded as schismatics who refuse to obey a Roman Pontiff because they are suspicious of his person or because of unfavorable reports [rumores] spread abroad that [he] was doubtfully elected, as happened after the election of Urban VI, or [those who] may resist him as a civil ruler and not as shepherd of the Church.
(Francis X. Wernz and Peter Vidal, Ius Canonicuм, vol. VII [Rome: Gregorian University, 1937], p. 439)

The conclusion is obvious. Hope it helps!


Offline Marulus Fidelis

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I'll add that not giving an answer to whether Beegoglio is the Pope is equivalent to not answering these questions:

Is denying the Council of Trent binds Protestants compatible with possessing the Catholic faith?

Is the Church one in faith, or can the Pope have a different faith from the Church? (Basic Catechism)

Can the Pope be outside the Church?

Can the Church promulgate a heretical ecuмenical council?

Can the Church habitually teach heresy through every single organ of authority for sixty years?

Is worshipping a pagan idol compatible with possessing the Catholic faith?

And on and on and on... Remaining undecided is simply not an option, and anyway, the answer to all of these is pure common sense, nothing special required to answer them except the Catholic faith.

Offline Marulus Fidelis

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I am not a fan of either. Both seem somewhat unsatisfactory to me.
I just noticed so I'll comment on this as well.

The positions are mutually exclusive and one of them has to be true. So you're not a fan and not satisfied with the truth whatever position is correct.

What you're actually not a fan of is probably the discomfort the division that the sword of truth necessarily causes.

There is nothing unsatisfactory with the Catholic doctrine of the papacy, as you correctly stated, it only seems to us that something is off because we are looking at it with human eyes, not the eyes of faith.

Offline Quo vadis Domine

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The so-called sedevacantist doctrine is just the Catholic belief in the papacy.

I'm not setting myself up as anything and even if I was an independent bishop my words wouldn't be binding as you seem to think (you may as well be Orthodox, they have the most bishops who don't submit to the Pope like you).

How you can continue to disingenuously present this as if I am speaking of my own authority and not merely repeating Church teaching is really an indictment of your bad will.

Who gave you, a lay woman, the authority to reject approved liturgical rites?

Who gave you, a lay woman, the authority to reject an ecuмenical council?

Who gave you, a lay woman, the authority to reject solemnly promulgated canon law?

Who gave you, a lay woman, the authority to reject the governing authority of the Supreme Pontiff?

You are condemned out of your own mouth.
👍👍👍
For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


Offline 2Vermont

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I wonder what Bishop Williamson will say wrt the Vigano happenings.....

Offline Giovanni Berto

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I just noticed so I'll comment on this as well.

The positions are mutually exclusive and one of them has to be true. So you're not a fan and not satisfied with the truth whatever position is correct.

What you're actually not a fan of is probably the discomfort the division that the sword of truth necessarily causes.

There is nothing unsatisfactory with the Catholic doctrine of the papacy, as you correctly stated, it only seems to us that something is off because we are looking at it with human eyes, not the eyes of faith.

I was thinking about this debate, and I remember St. Vincent Ferrer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Ferrer:

Quote
Antipope Clement VII lived at Avignon in France, and Pope Urban VI in Rome. Vincent was convinced that the election of Urban was invalid, although Catherine of Siena was just as devoted a supporter of the Roman pope. In the service of Cardinal Pedro de Luna, Vincent worked to persuade Spaniards to follow Clement. When Clement died in 1394, Cardinal de Luna was elected as the second antipope successor to the Avignon papacy and took the name Benedict XIII.[10]

Vincent and his brother Boniface, General of the Carthusians, were loyal to Benedict XIII, commonly known as "Papa Luna" in Castile and Aragon.[6] He worked for Benedict XIII as apostolic penitentiary and Master of the Sacred Palace.


St. Vincent served an antipope, and is still a saint. The antipope was not a heretic, I imagine. Nevertheless, it is an interesting story when we think of the current crisis.

Another thing that came to my mind is: did the heretic bishops of the Arian crisis lose office? Was there ever something related to this declared by any Pope?

I remember that I read once someone claiming that there were heretic bishops during the 1950s. It was the one who condemned Fr. Feeney who was mentioned, if I am not mistaken. Did this supposed heretics lose office? Pius XII did not disapprove them, as far as I am aware.

I am just saying that this whole question might not be as simple to solve. This is my point. 

We all know (or at least we should know) that we can't follow the Conciliar Popes, but the usual Sedevacantist arguments sound shallow to my ears, as the R&R arguments saying that these Popes are not manifest heretics.

The Cassiciacuм Thesis is somewhat more interesting, as it goes a bit deeper than most Sedevacantist arguments. It might be not true, but it somehow sounds better to me. Plus, it was elaborated by a very competent and qualified pre-conciliar theologian.

Offline 2Vermont

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I wonder what Bishop Williamson will say wrt the Vigano happenings.....
I see his most recent EC does not mention it. 

Have any of the R&R posters made posts on the excommunication of Vigano? I see a few provided links to Vigano's statements and/or made posts related to the usual R&R vs sedevacantist debate, but are there any R&R comments on Vigano's recent statements about his excommunication? 


Offline Stubborn

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I see his most recent EC does not mention it. 

Have any of the R&R posters made posts on the excommunication of Vigano? I see a few provided links to Vigano's statements and/or made posts related to the usual R&R vs sedevacantist debate, but are there any R&R comments on Vigano's recent statements about his excommunication?
It's more of the same 2V. The excommunication will happen (if it hasn't already) because they will not tolerate any dissenting voice, especially not one of an archbishop. They employ the same tactics as in the past, ones that have proven to be successful.... 
Quote
"...(f) contriving pretexts for destroying those who present a problem for the Revolutionists, and for neutralizing their effect; this tactic calls for an oblique attack: Fr. Coughlin was removed from his radio ministry on the excuse that his radio messages were political (1939); Fr. Feeney was censured not for heresy, but for disobedience; Archbishop Lefebvre was maneuvered into a situation wherein he had to disobey his ecclesiastical superiors, or abandon his efforts to provide Traditionalists priests for the oppressed faithful (1988).
 (g) Closing the issue: Once a step forward is taken, all discussion concerning the matter is terminated, no matter how strong the opposition, no matter how execrable the action in question...
...Unfortunately, the champions of the Faith have been too slow to recognize the malice and flintiness of our enemies. Consequently, they have played into their hands. Usually they have not established a legal base from which they might carry on the struggle against the Revolution, with the result that they have been conveniently vulnerable to the law; this was Archbishop Lefebvre's mistake. In this Conciliar Age, it is only to suppress opposition that the law is applied." - Who Shall Ascend?


"But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

Offline Croagh Patrick

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And what if we don't start listening to him?

I can understand the thrill of having a sedevacantist in the mainstream news - how often does that happen? Never!

We don't have to deny the Pope in order to keep our Catholic faith. Bergolio/Francis isn't going to keep me from practicing the Catholic faith as it should be practiced. God gives us the Pope we deserve, and things must be pretty bad, from God's perspective, to allow a Pope like Bergolio/Francis.
THE MOST EVIDENT MARK of God’s anger and the most terrible castigation He can inflict upon the world are manifested when He permits His people to fall into the hands of clerics’ who are priests more in name than in deed, priests who practice the cruelty of ravening wolves rather than the charity and affection of devoted shepherds.
Instead of nourishing those committed to their care, they rend and devour them brutally. Instead of leading their people to God, they drag Christian souls into hell in their train. Instead of being the salt of the earth and the light of the world, they are its innocuous poison and its murky darkness.
St. Gregory the Great says that priests and pastors will stand condemned before God as the murderers of any souls lost through neglect or silence. Tot occidimus, quot ad mortem ire tepidi et tacentes videmus. Elsewhere St. Gregory asserts that nothing more angers God than to see those whom He set aside for the correction of others, give bad example by a wicked and depraved life.’
Instead of preventing offenses against His Majesty, such priests become themselves the first to persecute Him, they lose their zeal for the salvation of souls and think only of following their own inclinations. Their affections go no farther than earthly things, they eagerly bask in the empty praises of men, using their sacred ministry to serve their ambitions, they abandon the things of God to devote themselves to the things of the world, and in their saintly calling of holiness, they spend their time in profane and worldly pursuits.
When God permits such things, it is a very positive proof that He is thoroughly angry with His people, and is visiting His most dreadful anger upon them. That is why He cries unceasingly to Christians, “Return, 0 ye revolting children . . . and I will give you pastors according to my own heart” (Jer. 3, 14-15). Thus, irregularities in the lives of priests constitute a scourge visited upon the people in consequence of sin.’
-St. John Eudes, ‘The Priest: His Dignity and Obligations’



Online Ladislaus

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The Sede vs. R&R debate has no end.

I am not a fan of either. Both seem somewhat unsatisfactory to me.

Will I be condemned if I don't pick one?

No, but you may be depending on WHY you pick something.  That's the problem with R&R as articulated above; it undermines and destroys Catholic doctrine/dogma about the papacy, to the point that one could not condemn the Old Catholics or Eastern Orthodox or even Prots.  If the papacy is capable of going corrupt in faith and morals, to the point of justifying and even requiring the separation of communion with it, then how can we say it didn't go corrupt already during the time of the Prots or the Old Catholics?  So if that's what you mean by R&R, yes, you're rejecting Catholic doctrine.

If you have some other rationale for why you think Bergogio et al. might be popes (at least materially) that doesn't destroy the papacy, then it's just a question of theory.  So, for instannce, Father Chazal considers himself R&R but he articulates a position that does not destroy the Catholic papacy and the Catholic Church ... though I'm not sure I would consider him R&R in that sense of the term.

Offline Giovanni Berto

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No, but you may be depending on WHY you pick something.  That's the problem with R&R as articulated above; it undermines and destroys Catholic doctrine/dogma about the papacy, to the point that one could not condemn the Old Catholics or Eastern Orthodox or even Prots.  If the papacy is capable of going corrupt in faith and morals, to the point of justifying and even requiring the separation of communion with it, then how can we say it didn't go corrupt already during the time of the Prots or the Old Catholics?  So if that's what you mean by R&R, yes, you're rejecting Catholic doctrine.

If you have some other rationale for why you think Bergogio et al. might be popes (at least materially) that doesn't destroy the papacy, then it's just a question of theory.  So, for instannce, Father Chazal considers himself R&R but he articulates a position that does not destroy the Catholic papacy and the Catholic Church ... though I'm not sure I would consider him R&R in that sense of the term.

I agree, and this is precisely the most absurd part of the R&R.

Where do you draw the line? If you openly oppose the Pope, then how can you condemn others who do the same? How can you be so sure that the errors that you oppose are really errors?

The main defense for this accusation, from the R&R "authorities" is that the Conciliar Popes have not used their teaching authority for real. They are using a kind of "dialogue mode" Papacy, on which they merely propose ideas, and don't really teach.

It does sound weak, but at least they have an explanation for their position which differs them from the Old Catholics, Orthodox, etc...

Fr. Chazal's position seems closer to the Cassiciacuм Thesis to me, although I have not studied it thoroughly.