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Author Topic: BREAKING: Archbishop Viganò Summoned to Vatican Tribunal on Charge of Schism  (Read 27190 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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    In regards to Jorge Bergoglio, he was invalidly elected, and today he is prevented from acquiring the papacy through universal and peaceful acceptance because of his public heresy.  Public heresy is a divine impediment.
    So Francis was invalidly elected because the resignation procedures related to Benedict weren't followed?


    And when did Francis commit public heresy?

    Offline songbird

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  • Heresy?  Maybe saying the counterfeit Mass for over 60 years.  For a start.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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  • So Francis was invalidly elected because the resignation procedures related to Benedict weren't followed?


    And when did Francis commit public heresy?

    Francis was invalidly elected because Benedict XVI did not renounce the papal office.

    To your second question, really?

    Offline pnw1994

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  • Francis was invalidly elected because Benedict XVI did not renounce the papal office.

    To your second question, really?
    I think a question of equal merit, to piggyback off of Pax Vobis, would be: 

    When has Francis, by word or deed, professed a heresy that his conciliar predecessors Benedict XVI and JP2 and Paul VI etc, did NOT also profess? Are you able to provide specific examples? 
    God cannot leave a soul to swim
    That has not first abandoned Him.

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • Francis was invalidly elected because Benedict XVI did not renounce the papal office.

    To your second question, really?

    So which one is it ...

    1) not pope because he wasn't validly elected?
    2) not pope because of public heresy?

    Those two are mutually exclusive.  If he wasn't validly elected, then he couldn't be ipso facto deposed on account of heresy, since there's nothing for him to be deposed from.  If he was deposed for public heresy, then that presumes he was valid in the first place.

    This demonstrates again that you just don't want Jorge to be the pope, but want the pre-Bergoglians to be legitimate, and so you come up with whatever reason you want to throw at the wall to make him a non-pope.

    There's no heresy other than that in Amoris Laetitia that his predecessors did not also hold and in fact originated.  Period.


    Offline Ladislaus

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  • Laudislaus, you cannot be morally certain, according to Pax Vobis, that they are antipopes.  Only the Church can decide, according to Pax Vobis.

    I can be morally certain that he's not Pope, but not dogmatically certain, but in no case can my certainty (regardless of the degree) remove him from office.  That's the entire point of sedeprivationism.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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  • I think a question of equal merit, to piggyback off of Pax Vobis, would be:

    When has Francis, by word or deed, professed a heresy that his conciliar predecessors Benedict XVI and JP2 and Paul VI etc, did NOT also profess? Are you able to provide specific examples?

    Professing a heresy is in itself is not sufficient to warrant the public sin of manifest formal heresy.  There must also be pertinacity.  I do not hold that the conciliar popes have been pertinacious, whereas antipope Jorge Bergoglio is pertinacious.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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  • So which one is it ...

    1) not pope because he wasn't validly elected?
    2) not pope because of public heresy?

    Those two are mutually exclusive.  If he wasn't validly elected, then he couldn't be ipso facto deposed on account of heresy, since there's nothing for him to be deposed from.  If he was deposed for public heresy, then that presumes he was valid in the first place.

    This demonstrates again that you just don't want Jorge to be the pope, but want the pre-Bergoglians to be legitimate, and so you come up with whatever reason you want to throw at the wall to make him a non-pope.

    There's no heresy other than that in Amoris Laetitia that his predecessors did not also hold and in fact originated.  Period.

    I am not certain that Jorge Bergoglio was a public manifest formal heretic prior to the 2013 conclave.  I know that Archbishop Vigano holds that he was indeed one.  However, I have not looked into this question sufficiently myself.  What I am certain of, however, is that Benedict XVI did not validly renounce his office, so he remained pope until his death on December 31. 2022.


    Offline Catholic Knight

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  • I can be morally certain that he's not Pope, but not dogmatically certain, but in no case can my certainty (regardless of the degree) remove him from office.  That's the entire point of sedeprivationism.

    Your moral certitude does not remove Jorge Bergoglio from office.  This is true.  However, you have made a judgment based on sufficient evidence, and therefore you reject his authority.  Sedeprivationism holds that Jorge Bergoglio holds some claim to the office.  This is where I disagree.  He holds no claim to the office.  That he has a sign on his door indicating "pope" is purely accidental.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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  • It can only be morally certain, when the Church says so.  Before then, it's just an opinion.

    I have been waiting months for your proof that only the Church can attain moral certitude that one has committed the public sin of manifest formal heresy.  All I have heard so far is crickets.

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • Your moral certitude does not remove Jorge Bergoglio from office.  This is true.  However, you have made a judgment based on sufficient evidence, and therefore you reject his authority.  Sedeprivationism holds that Jorge Bergoglio holds some claim to the office.  This is where I disagree.  He holds no claim to the office.  That he has a sign on his door indicating "pope" is purely accidental.

    Yes, the principle of papa dubious nullus papa suffices to strip such a one of authority or, to use Fr. Chazal's term, put him in a state of suspension.  It's not about the sign on his door or the white cassock he wears, but about the designation of the Church (aka election).

    Think about this scenario for a minute.  Cardinal Cushing was an open, pertinacious, manifest heretic.  "No salvation outside the Church?  Nonsense."  Was he then a non-bishop of Boston, or until he were to be removed by the Church still somehow function that office for the purposes of, say, granting jurisdiction to the priests in his diocese?  SPs (including myself) hold the former, whereas SVs would logically have to hold the latter ... though I doubt any of them would hold it when applied to this scenario.  Most SVs would say that some priest who rejected Cushing's authority and started his own chapel within the Archdiocese of Boston would be a schismatic.  SPism makes the most sense, and, as I pointed out, Pope St. Celestine referred to Nestorius as lacking authority since he began preaching his heresies, and yet referred to him as excommunicandus ... someone who should be excommunicated, rather than as ipso facto excommunicated.

    SPism provides the best balance between divine judgment ipso facto stripping a pope of authority (the formal aspect of office) and yet avoiding a chaotic "Wild West" Catholicism where any given "Aunt Helen" could go around deciding who is and who isn't the pope.

    I rejected straight SVism after talking to a guy who decided that Pius IX was not the pope and realized that there's something terribly wrong with that, but that straight SVism provides no "backstop" in principle against such scenarios, and John of St. Thomas pointed out the same thing.  Unfortunately, the Catjetan/John of St. Thomas papa haereticus deponendus position violates the principles of papa a nemine judicandus, which Father Kramer rightly points out was elevated to near-dogmatic status at Vatican I.  Yet some of their objections against straight SVism are valid, and are best addressed by SPism or Fr. Chazal's variation thereof.


    Online Pax Vobis

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    I have been waiting months for your proof that only the Church can attain moral certitude that one has committed the public sin of manifest formal heresy.  All I have heard so far is crickets.
    You (and Ladislaus) make the distinction between moral and dogmatic certainty.  Ok, these 2 types do exist.  But I don't think dogmatic certainty applies here, because we're not talking about "faith and morals" in a dogmatic sense.  We're talking about sin/morality.


    Secondly, to judge one guilty of manifest, formal heresy has to do with morals, and the DENIAL of dogma, but declaring someone a heretic isn't a dogmatic decree, but govt/moral one. 

    Dogmatic certainty has to do with an article of faith; a part of Divine Revelation; what I must believe.  Moral certainty has to do with what I must do (i.e. what the Church decides or tells me how to act).


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    It is the Church that has the decisive authority to impose the reality on the consciences of all Catholics. 
    In this case, the judgement is not of a dogma, so there's no dogmatic certainty.  The judgement is one of morals, a violation of faith, so it's related to moral certainty.  It's not a LESS CERTAIN situation, but only a certainty of a different type.  A judgement of this type couldn't be dogmatic, because it has nothing to do with Revelation, Scripture or Tradition.



    Quote
    However, this does not preclude the faithful from making a private judgment corresponding to the reality, and having their own consciences bind themselves prior to the Church's judgment.  

    A private judgement couldn't be considered 'morally certain', but only FACTUALLY certain.  Or legally certain.


    Quote
    Nonetheless, the reality is the reality.  The fact is the fact.  The Church herself has stated (e.g., Canon 188.4 of the 1917 Code) that an office is lost by tacit resignation based on the FACT of public defection.  This FACT is evident in regards to Jorge Beroglio.  The Church simply needs to enforce that which is evident by removing Jorge Bergoglio.
    If you're using Canon Law to make a judgement, then you can only be legally certain.  Canon Law is a human/govt creation and, while it deals with morals, it is not a 'morally certain' guideline, unless the Church decides formally. 


    The second issue is, you're not even a canon lawyer and your "certainty" regarding your legal interpretations is (even if accurate) not certain at all, but only probable.  If a number of canon lawyers agreed with you, then your opinion would rise to the level of "legally certain".  But still, this is not morally certain, which only the Church can have.

    Morally certain implies that one sins by NOT following or by doing something which is commanded or prohibited.  So say that you can be "morally certain" of your own opinion, and thus, your PERSONAL conscience is bound only...this is anti-catholic and the definition of protestant private interpretation.  Catholics don't/can't "bind" their own conscience; you go ask a priest or an authority, and THEY bind your conscience...but only based on a rule that the Church has put into practice.  A priest/bishop (especially in Tradition, where they have no jurisdiction) is not allowed to bind anyone's conscience of their own decision, except in confession.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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  • You (and Ladislaus) make the distinction between moral and dogmatic certainty.  Ok, these 2 types do exist.  But I don't think dogmatic certainty applies here, because we're not talking about "faith and morals" in a dogmatic sense.  We're talking about sin/morality.


    Secondly, to judge one guilty of manifest, formal heresy has to do with morals, and the DENIAL of dogma, but declaring someone a heretic isn't a dogmatic decree, but govt/moral one. 

    Dogmatic certainty has to do with an article of faith; a part of Divine Revelation; what I must believe.  Moral certainty has to do with what I must do (i.e. what the Church decides or tells me how to act).

    In this case, the judgement is not of a dogma, so there's no dogmatic certainty.  The judgement is one of morals, a violation of faith, so it's related to moral certainty.  It's not a LESS CERTAIN situation, but only a certainty of a different type.  A judgement of this type couldn't be dogmatic, because it has nothing to do with Revelation, Scripture or Tradition.



    A private judgement couldn't be considered 'morally certain', but only FACTUALLY certain.  Or legally certain.

    If you're using Canon Law to make a judgement, then you can only be legally certain.  Canon Law is a human/govt creation and, while it deals with morals, it is not a 'morally certain' guideline, unless the Church decides formally. 


    The second issue is, you're not even a canon lawyer and your "certainty" regarding your legal interpretations is (even if accurate) not certain at all, but only probable.  If a number of canon lawyers agreed with you, then your opinion would rise to the level of "legally certain".  But still, this is not morally certain, which only the Church can have.

    Morally certain implies that one sins by NOT following or by doing something which is commanded or prohibited.  So say that you can be "morally certain" of your own opinion, and thus, your PERSONAL conscience is bound only...this is anti-catholic and the definition of protestant private interpretation.  Catholics don't/can't "bind" their own conscience; you go ask a priest or an authority, and THEY bind your conscience...but only based on a rule that the Church has put into practice.  A priest/bishop (especially in Tradition, where they have no jurisdiction) is not allowed to bind anyone's conscience of their own decision, except in confession.

    That's a lot of verbiage, but you still have not provided the evidence that only the Church can have moral certitude that one is a public manifest formal heretic.

    This author makes good points on this issue (emphasis mine):

    Quote
    "Some argue that we cannot know if the 'Pope' is a formal or merely a material heretic, because only God can judge the interior, and heresy is a matter of interior rejection of Catholic doctrine, not merely exterior. It’s amazing to me that any Catholic could make this argument, but many do, among many supposedly traditional priests and laymen dedicated to defending conciliar pontiffs.' It utterly destroys the visible nature of the Church. The question is entirely in the external forum, thus it relies solely on externally verifiable evidences, as in every other legal proceeding. If this argument were valid, no one could ever have been condemned as a heretic, or indeed could be condemned of any crime at all, either by the Church or by secular authorities, since the guilty intention essential to any crime could never be judged. The fundamental principle of reason is that people are responsible for their actions. If a criminal act is committed, it is assumed, until proven otherwise, that the person is liable for it. This is stated in canon law (2200:2):

    'Posita externa legis violatione, dolus in foro externo praesumitur, donec contrarium probetur.'

    'When an external violation of the law has been posited, criminal intent is presumed in the external forum, until the contrary is proved.'

    It is further argued that, in the case of heresy, dolus consists in the pertinacious rejection of Catholic teaching, which cannot be assumed merely from a denial of a doctrine. This is true, but pertinacity can also, and must also, be inferred from the person’s actions. That is why one or two admonitions are mentioned by St. Paul. These admonitions do not need to be formal and explicit, to judge that pertinacity is present, at least they do not need to be made by every individual. If the public evidence is sufficient for a moral certitude of pertinacity, then the conclusion follows."

    Source

    Offline Catholic Knight

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  • Yes, the principle of papa dubious nullus papa suffices to strip such a one of authority or, to use Fr. Chazal's term, put him in a state of suspension.  It's not about the sign on his door or the white cassock he wears, but about the designation of the Church (aka election).

    Think about this scenario for a minute.  Cardinal Cushing was an open, pertinacious, manifest heretic.  "No salvation outside the Church?  Nonsense."  Was he then a non-bishop of Boston, or until he were to be removed by the Church still somehow function that office for the purposes of, say, granting jurisdiction to the priests in his diocese?  SPs (including myself) hold the former, whereas SVs would logically have to hold the latter ... though I doubt any of them would hold it when applied to this scenario.  Most SVs would say that some priest who rejected Cushing's authority and started his own chapel within the Archdiocese of Boston would be a schismatic.  SPism makes the most sense, and, as I pointed out, Pope St. Celestine referred to Nestorius as lacking authority since he began preaching his heresies, and yet referred to him as excommunicandus ... someone who should be excommunicated, rather than as ipso facto excommunicated.

    SPism provides the best balance between divine judgment ipso facto stripping a pope of authority (the formal aspect of office) and yet avoiding a chaotic "Wild West" Catholicism where any given "Aunt Helen" could go around deciding who is and who isn't the pope.

    I rejected straight SVism after talking to a guy who decided that Pius IX was not the pope and realized that there's something terribly wrong with that, but that straight SVism provides no "backstop" in principle against such scenarios, and John of St. Thomas pointed out the same thing.  Unfortunately, the Catjetan/John of St. Thomas papa haereticus deponendus position violates the principles of papa a nemine judicandus, which Father Kramer rightly points out was elevated to near-dogmatic status at Vatican I.  Yet some of their objections against straight SVism are valid, and are best addressed by SPism or Fr. Chazal's variation thereof.

    I already wrote and/or quoted that excommunication is a Church penalty for the public sin of manifest formal heresy.  It is the effect of the public sin of manifest formal heresy in Church law.  Excommunication is not the cause of loss of office for the public sin of manifest formal heresy.  The loss of office is the direct and immediate effect of the public sin of manifest formal heresy.  With the loss of office comes the loss of the ordinary jurisdiction attached to that office, and all claim to that office.

    That someone claims that Pope Pius IX was not the pope is an abuse of the reality.  Abuses do nullify principles.  In today's case, we are speaking about Jorge Bergoglio.  Many people, even though they don't understand its effects, accuse him of the public sin of manifest formal heresy.  The opposite today is true, that is, that to claim that Jorge Bergoglio is not a public manifest formal heretic is an abuse of reality.  The Church teaches that the public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.  The following syllogism then applies:

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church.
    But Jorge Bergoglio has committed the public sin of manifest formal heresy.
    Therefore, Jorge Bergoglio is separated from the Church.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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  • The post above should read:

    Abuses do not nullify principles.