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Author Topic: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei  (Read 58781 times)

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Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #195 on: January 29, 2019, 07:47:23 PM »
Fine. You have more time than me to remember every.single.post. ever made
I don't have more time but I remember obvious errors. Listen to Fr. de Pauw.

Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #196 on: January 29, 2019, 08:29:30 PM »
I think you've come up with what looks like a simple answer to a difficult problem, but from my viewpoint, your answer just doesn't match reality.

For example, in the breviary before 1911 there was a tradition of reciting the "laudete" psalms every morning at lauds. This practice was one of the most ancient traditions in the prayer of the Church. Our Lord may very well have said these same psalms in morning prayer.

Nevertheless, St. Pius X's reform of the breviary did away with this.

If I understand your argument correctly, you must reject the breviary reform of Pope St. Pius X as "iconoclast" for daring to set aside ecclesiastical traditions.

The liturgy is not "purely discipline" and no one here thinks that. We all agree the divine elements can't be changed. But human elements can and have changed, as evidenced by history such as the Pius X breviary reform.

No Stanley, you do not understand the argument correctly.  I am not familiar with the changes in the breviary but the breviary is not the “received and approved” rite and even if it were, my argument is NOT grounded upon making formal judgments that are reserved to properly constituted authority.  My argument is grounded upon drawing conclusions from a few simple facts:

1)      Bugnini began in 1948 as head of the Pian commission with the intent of overturning the “received and approved” rite of Mass.  This was accomplished with certainty by in his Missal 1969 by both sides of this question.
2)      Exactly when the “received and approved” rite ended and the new rite began is a matter of speculation but we know for fact that:
a)      The “received and approved” rite was ended before 1962 because Rome under three popes has legally relegated this Missal to an Indult and to a grant of legal privilege attached to unacceptable conditions for faithful Catholics.  This fact is absolutely incompatible with a “received and approved” rite.
b)      There must be a presumption in favor of the legislator as to the correctness and meaning of their laws.  That is, until proven otherwise by competent authority, 1962 rite must be regarded as sharing a common provenance with the 1969 Bugnini Missal expressing one ‘lex orandi, lex credenda.’
3)      That the “received and approved” rites cannot be changed into other new rites by any pastor of the churches whomsoever is dogma, that is, a formal object of divine and Catholic faith that has been incorporated into the Tridentine profession of faith.
4)      Therefore, every Catholic faithful to tradition must, whenever possible, attend a Mass that is without question the “received and approved” Roman rite of Mass.
5)      My argument is not based upon determining exactly what is and what is not of divine origin, OR what is and what is not of discipline.  Those that affirm that they can on their own authority determine what Bugnini corruptions are compatible and what are not have usurped to themselves an authority they do not possess.  What is worse, they cannot structure an intelligible argument against an abusive authority that is grounded upon dogmatic truth.


Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #197 on: January 29, 2019, 09:10:41 PM »
How do you in right conscience reject the infallible teachings of Vatican I Council? Your traditionalist position is a contradiction, merely founded upon rebellion towards the one you consider Vicar of Christ.

Pastor Aeternus, Chapter III "On the Power and Nature of the Primacy of the Roman Pontiff"

If John XXIII was indeed Pope, then the 1962' Tridentine Missal is the one you should be using, in good Faith.

Yes we understand your argument.  "If John XXIII is the pope you must accept the 1962 Missal".  "If Paul VI is the pope you must accept the 1969 Missal, and that Vatican II is without error".  "If John Paul II is the pope you must accept the indult".  "If Benedict XVI is the pope you must accept the 1962 Bugnini Missal as a grant of legal privilege, the Novus Ordo and all of Vatican II".  This is your same old argument.  You hold the pope as your rule of faith when your rule of faith should be DOGMA.  You corrupt moral obligations to regulate obedience by the virtue of Religion.  You corrupt the law by divorcing from its necessary relationship to being an act of reason for the common good. 
 
You have read nothing.  Your entire reason is subjected to a perverse will.  You read little snippets, sentences taken out of context to support your particular passion and never enter into yourself for serious reflection upon what you say.  You cannot even remember what you say from one post to the other and are offended when reminded of your contradictions.
 
Dogma is the proximate rule of faith.  Until you understand this you will have no intellectual or moral grounding. 

Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #198 on: January 29, 2019, 09:33:31 PM »
CIC 1917, Canon 1257:

Quote
The Holy See alone has the right to enact the form of the sacred liturgy, as well as to approve the liturgical books.



Until you can demonstrate that the form of the Sacred Liturgy was indeed altered in the 1962 revision of the Tridentine Rite, you have no grounds to resist anything.

Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #199 on: January 29, 2019, 09:40:19 PM »

Dogma is the proximate rule of faith.  Until you understand this you will have no intellectual or moral grounding.

Your appeal to Dogma does not work in your favor. The Council of Trent declared concerning "the power of the Church as regards the dispensation of the Sacraments of the Eucharist"

Council of Trent, Session 21, Chapter 2
Quote
"It furthermore declares, that this power has ever been in the Church, that, in the dispensation of the sacraments, their substance being untouched, it may ordain,- or change, what things soever it may judge most expedient, for the profit of those who receive, or for the veneration of the said sacraments, according to the difference of circuмstances, times, and places…. Wherefore, holy Mother Church, knowing this her authority in the administration of the sacraments, although the use of both species has,- from the beginning of the Christian religion, not been infrequent, yet, in progress of time, that custom having been already very widely changed,- she, induced by weighty and just reasons,- has approved of this custom of communicating under one species, and decreed that it was to be held as a law; which it is not lawful to reprobate, or to change at pleasure, without the authority of the Church itself."
  

The introduction, approval, and modification of liturgical rites does belong to the Church, so long as the substance is not changed.