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Author Topic: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei  (Read 57803 times)

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Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #75 on: January 09, 2019, 06:02:44 AM »
Good point, except the pre-Tridentine mass was revised multiple times by Pope St Gregory in the 400s, so his changes would be null as well.  Then in the 200s and 300s you had the development of the Greek, Syrian, Coptic, Byzantine and Latin rites and these would all have to be rejected too, since if the pope can’t make changes then the only “received and approved” rite would be the Aramaic rite directly from Christ.  

Yes, "the Pope has authority on these matters". But all the changes to the Missals previous to 1962 have been ORGANIC. If the pope could do anything he wanted ("master of the liturgy") it would not have been codified by Pius V. Re read Quo Primum and I recommend The Liturgical Year by Gueranger O.S.B.
 
Adding St. Joseph to the Canon is not a "minor" change. It broke away from the tradition of only having martyrs named in the Canon which Leo XIII refused even to discuss, when he was asked about it he replied: "I'm only the pope". He also had the vision of the future of the Church that prompted him to write the old Prayer to St. Michael.
 
Not only St. Joseph's name added to the Canon broke with a ancient tradition but the 1700+ years old Good Friday Prayer for the Conversion of the Jews was changed.
 
The changes by Bugnini were massive and serious changes he viewed as "gross accretions  and evident distortions". I attend Mass daily and I'm edified by these "accretions" that as Bugnini said were only the beginning to arrive at the Novus Ordo and made it clear in 1962 that it was only transitional.



Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #76 on: January 09, 2019, 06:36:45 AM »
Quote
Not only St. Joseph's name added to the Canon broke with a ancient tradition but the 1700+ years old Good Friday Prayer for the Conversion of the Jews was changed.
Doesn’t matter.  

(1) Both these prayers were not from Christ, therefore they aren’t part of the Divine/doctrinal part of the mass, which is the ONLY part that can’t be changed. 

The canon prayers were not part of Church tradition until the 400s with pope St Gregory the great (and this only for the Latin rite...not sure if other rites have an old Canon).  

(2) they were added/created by the Church and an earlier pope, so  they are part of the human/changeable part of the liturgy.  A pope has the power to change human laws, however old.

(3) These changes do not affect the doctrine/theology/substance of the mass, either in its sacrificial nature or its purpose as the greatest prayer to God.

Not only are you “making a mountain out of a molehill” but you are making yourself a judge of the Pope, since you’re claiming that John XXIII doesn’t have the power to chnage what another pope added.  Hogwash.


Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #77 on: January 09, 2019, 07:02:12 AM »
Doesn’t matter.  

(1) Both these prayers were not from Christ, therefore they aren’t part of the Divine/doctrinal part of the mass, which is the ONLY part that can’t be changed.

The canon prayers were not part of Church tradition until the 400s with pope St Gregory the great (and this only for the Latin rite...not sure if other rites have an old Canon).  

(2) they were added/created by the Church and an earlier pope, so  they are part of the human/changeable part of the liturgy.  A pope has the power to change human laws, however old.

(3) These changes do not affect the doctrine/theology/substance of the mass, either in its sacrificial nature or its purpose as the greatest prayer to God.

Not only are you “making a mountain out of a molehill” but you are making yourself a judge of the Pope, since you’re claiming that John XXIII doesn’t have the power to chnage what another pope added.  Hogwash.
A couple of points (one in which I disagree with you and one in which I agree):

(1) I disagree that the Good Friday prayer doesn't change doctrine.  It removes the word "faithless/perfidious".  This certainly changes the way the Church has always taught to view the Jews (also keep in mind that this led the way to the Novus Ordo prayer that now states that Jews are actually "faithful").  

It is my understanding that the Church doesn't teach that Catholic doctrine is only reflected in certain sections of the mass.  If you believe otherwise, please provide Church support for that.


(2)  I agree with your point about judging a Pope if one believes that John XXIII is actually a true pope.  If John XXIII was a certainly true pope, then he can make accidental (vs substantial) changes to the liturgy just like any other true pope.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #78 on: January 09, 2019, 08:45:02 AM »
Quote
(1) I disagree that the Good Friday prayer doesn't change doctrine.  It removes the word "faithless/perfidious".  This certainly changes the way the Church has always taught to view the Jews (also keep in mind that this led the way to the Novus Ordo prayer that now states that Jews are actually "faithful").  

It is my understanding that the Church doesn't teach that Catholic doctrine is only reflected in certain sections of the mass.  If you believe otherwise, please provide Church support for that.
Deleting the word doesn't change anything.  What it "led to" is irrelevant because we're talking about the 1962 missal, not what came after it. 

Secondly, this change affects one prayer, of one subsection of prayers, of one particular liturgy, which is used only once a year.  It has NO effect on the mass.  Hardly a ground-breaking matter. 

Offline drew

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #79 on: January 09, 2019, 09:18:48 PM »
No, I accept the 62 missal because IT IS A LEGAL REVISION OF QUO PRIMUM.  Regardless of the intention of the changes, regardless of the goal of the changes, regardless of who envisioned the changes, the changes themselves WERE NOT SUBSTANTIVE alterations of the St Pius V missal.  Therefore, the revisions are “approved and received” because in non-doctrinal changes, the pope has authority to chnage the liturgy.  In non-essential matters, yes, the liturgy is a matter of discipline because a lot of the Church’s liturgy is of human origin and development.  

The changes post 62 don’t have to be accepted because 1) they were not legally part of a revision of Quo Primum, and the docuмents never claimed they were. 2) the changes, therefore, lack the binding and authoritative legal elements that Quo Primum clearly expressed, and 3) Neither John XXIII or Paul VI ever commanded these changes to be accepted by all the Church, under pain of sin (unlike the 62 changes, which are enforced by Quo Primum’s strict regulations.)

I’ll quote what I already said before.  Please read this slowly and study the legal docuмents.

Pope John XXIII's law of 1962 is a revision of St Pius V's missal.  It precedes the Ecclesia Dei by over 20 years and "S.P." by 40 years.

The indult laws of the 80s and 2007 are null and void because they seek to limit the permissions and commands of Quo Primum, which are legally in force “in perpetuity”.  No post 1962 law/pope has EVER revised or ended the law of Quo Primum, as Benedict XVI admitted in his “motu”.  Thus, no Catholic must follow the indults (which are legal word games with no substance or penalty for ignoring them), or needs permission for the TLM because Quo Primum grants a perpetual indult/permission which is based on both doctrine and discipline and is legally binding under pain of sin.


PAX,

Your entire conceptual presentation of the typical 1962 Missal as an organic emendation of Quo Primum is a fantasy.  It is fantasy because no one really knows what the 1962 typical edition is.  

This Missal and breviary were published in a general form in the Motu Proprio, Rubricarum Instructum, on July 25, 1962.
http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-xxiii/la/motu_proprio/docuмents/hf_j-xxiii_motu-proprio_19600725_rubricarum-instructum.html

There is no mention of Quo Priumum in this docuмent.  And neither does the publication by the Cardinal Larraona, Sacred Congregation of Rites who was responsible for the publication of the Missal and breviary.  (I have included a picture of that docuмent, but not sure if it uploaded properly).




What John XXIII does appeal to in Rubricarum Instructum is the Pian Commission and he says that he is implementing their work in anticipation of the Council.

You are claiming that the 1962 typical edition is an organic development of the Roman rite and has all the binding authority of Quo Primum.  The only possible grounds for this is that the Quo Primum was reprinted in the preface of the Missal.  Now understand this, Quo Primum was in every edition of the 1962 Missal until the Missal that was published in 1965.  In the later editions of the 1962 Missal the entire Mass was in the vernacular excepting the canon.  This is a link to pictures a late edition of the 1962 Missal in the vernacular.  
https://ordorecitandi.blogspot.com/search?q=1962

What is worse for your argument, the first typical edition of the 1962 Missal was first published in July 25, 1962. St. Joseph’s name was not added to the communicantes until December 8, 1962 by John XXIII in Nove hisce temporibus.  Every subsequent republication of the 1962 Missal contains the name of St. Joseph in the canon. So just what is the “typical edition” of the 1962 Missal?  I do not know and neither do you, and a lot of people who are very knowledgeable about this question have not arrived at any definitive answer either.

In Summorum Pontificuм multiple references are made to the typical edition of the Roman Missal, which was promulgated by Blessed John XXIII in 1962 but the only reference link is to the Vatican web page of John XXIII providing links to all his publications and speeches. No “typical edition” of the 1962 Missal is identified.  Why?  Because no one knows what it is.


The 1962 Missal is a Bugnini transitional Missal and characteristic of all the Bugnini transitional missals, they were here today and gone tomorrow.  Bugnini took credit for the 1962 Missal and in the very act of taking credit for it, he announced that the Missal itself was already history.  The liturgical transition that Bugnini effected was the moving from the “received and approved” rite of Mass to the man-made production of the Novus Ordo.  The end was visualized from the beginning. One example to demonstrate this claim:

Quote
One sees disagreement over ideas with the Benedictine's view that the Octave (of Pentecost) be retained but with the others agreeing it should be abolished. The 1948 Commission took the decision to abolish the Octave of Pentecost at its seventh meeting on February 14th, 1950. (Vide: Bugnini, 'Reform..', p.320 & Giampietro, 'Antonelli..', p. 289) although this was not to happen in practice for two decades being dependent on working out the lectionary etc. for 'Ordinary Time'.  
Rubricarius, St. Lawrence Press

I have Bugnini’s book, but I do not have compatriot Antonelli’s.  Bugnini’s book is full of examples that were adopted by the Pian Commission but were not implemented for many years.

But the end for which Bugnini was working for you is immaterial.  You argue for the 1962 Bugnini transitional Missal that intention for the changes and the end for which the changes were made is immaterial because the changes were legally imposed by John XXIII.  You claim that “a lot of the liturgy is of human origin and development”, that is, you are claiming the liturgy is essentially a matter of mere discipline and that the lawgiver can do with it what he please as long as it is a “non-essential matter”.  I disagree and think that if you would spend a year reading daily Dom Gueranger’s The Liturgical Year, you would recognize how very, very little of the liturgy is of “human origin”.  It is essentially overall and in specific details the work of the Holy Ghost. Even Msgr. Gamber who was praised by Cardinal Ratzinger does not support this claim on the origin of the liturgy and the authority of the pope to do whatever he wants:

Quote
   "However, the term disciplina in no way applies to the liturgical rite of the Mass, particularly in light of the fact that the popes have repeatedly observed that the rite is founded on apostolic tradition (several popes are then quoted in the footnote). For this reason alone, the rite cannot fall into the category of 'discipline and rule of the Church.'  To this we can add that there is not a single docuмent, including the Codex Iuris Canonici, in which there is a specific statement that the pope, in his function as the supreme pastor of the Church, has the authority to abolish the traditional rite.  In fact, nowhere is it mentioned that the pope has the authority to change even a single local liturgical tradition.  The fact that there is no mention of such authority strengthens our case considerably.
     "There are clearly defined limits to the plena et suprema potestas (full and highest powers) of the pope.  For example, there is no question that, even in matters of dogma, he still has to follow the tradition of the universal Church-that is, as St. Vincent of Lerins says, what has been believed (quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab ominibus). In fact, there are several authors who state quite explicitly that it is clearly outside the pope's scope of authority to abolish the traditional rite."
Msgr. Klaus Gamber, The Reform of the Roman Liturgy
                                                                               
You accept the 1962 edition of the Bugnini transitional Missal because it was approved by the pope and you do not find anything in the Missal that offends your sense of what is “essential”.  You reject the 1965 transitional Missal even though it was approved by the pope because it offends your sense of what is “essential”.  You have made yourself the judge of what or what is not essential in the liturgy and that is an authority you do not possess.
 Even Archbishop Lefebvre used the 1965 edition and with even some subsequent Bugnini changes after 1965 at Econe through the 70s and possibly until 1983.  He found nothing in them that corrupted what he thought was “essential.”


Your argument can go nowhere. Neither you nor I can offer any more than opinions regarding what the pope can and cannot do regarding the liturgy.  Neither you nor I can determine exactly when the Novus Ordo replaced the “received and approved” Roman rite.  I admit this but you do not.

What I do is return to what is certain before Bugnini laid his filthy Masonic hands on the work of the Holy Ghost, with an argument grounded upon Catholic dogma.  What you cling to is an illusion that has no more stability now than it did in 1962 and cannot now or ever serve as unifying force defending Catholic tradition.  

Drew