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Author Topic: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei  (Read 57851 times)

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Offline drew

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2019, 07:05:51 AM »
No, I do not need to do that. If you have a claim, it is your job to prove it.

What you have done is say that Archbishop Lefebvre did not subscribe to your version of EENS. From there you go to the broad claim he "did not regard dogma as the proximate rule of faith". Perhaps your "evidence" doesn't support your claim, because, for instance, your claim is too broad.

Frankly, you could work on communication. Try defining the terms you use, so that it does not appear that you are using them in different senses in different places.


I am sorry.  Let's begin by improving "communication" with definition.
 
Catholic faith is believing what God has revealed on the authority of God the revealer and since God is the revealer these revealed truths are believed with divine faith.  These revealed truths are found in Scripture and Tradition.  Thus Scripture and Tradition constitute the remote rule of faith.  The Magisterium is the teaching of the Church grounded upon the Church's attributes of Authority and Infallibility.  The Magisterium can only ultimately be engaged by the pope in either the ordinary and universal OR the extra-ordinary mode of operation.  When the Magisterium defines an article of revealed truth from Scripture and Tradition that defined truth is called a DOGMA and then this revealed truth becomes a formal object of divine and Catholic faith.
 
These defined truths are as St. Pius X said, "Truths fallen from heaven."  They are irreformable in both their form and matter, that is, irreformable in both their meaning and manner of expression.  As Vatican I said:

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"Hence, too, that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by Holy mother Church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding." Vatican I

Dogmas constitute the proximate rule of faith and this can be demonstrated by the definition of heresy.  Heresy is the defined by St. Thomas as, "a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas."  This offers an essential definition (the best of all definitions) of a heretic which definition gives the genus and species.  The genus is those who "professed the faith of Christ" and the species difference is between those who keep dogma as their rule of faith and those who do not. A heretic fails to keep dogma as his rule of faith.  The faithful are those who do.
 
Archbishop Lefebvre believed that a Jew as "good-willed" Jew, a Hindu as a "good-willed" Hindu, a Moslem as a "good-willed" Moslem, a Buddhist as a "good-willed Buddhist, a Protestant as a "good-willed" Protestant, etc., are in a state of grace, temples of the Holy Ghost, members of the Church, and heirs to heaven because of their "goodness" which God sees and rewards. 

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"The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.
 The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion. They are saved in their religion but not by it. There is no Buddhist church in heaven, no Protestant church. This is perhaps hard to accept, but it is the truth. I did not found the Church, but rather Our Lord the Son of God. As priests we must state the truth."

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, Open Letter to Confused Catholics

Compare this to what Pope John Paul II believed:
 
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Normally, it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour.
 John Paul II, The Seeds of the Word in the Religions of the World, September 9, 1998


 For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ's redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her.

John Paul II, General Audience, May 31, 1995

Not a dime's worth of difference between +Lefebvre and the JPII the Great Ecuмenist regarding the Catholic doctrine of soteriology.  This belief logically brought JPII to the Prayer Meeting at Assisi and those who defend the +Lefebvre's belief have not been able to explain why in principle he found it an abomination, and as a consequence of it, consecrated the four as bishops.  
 
Now I won't quote the dogmas that touch upon the doctrine of Catholic soteriology.  Everyone on this forum knows them and you can look them up yourself. But, consider this, the "good-willed" Buddhist as a Buddhist does not believe in a single article of revealed truth from God, he has not received any sacrament, he is not subject to the Roman pontiff and yet he is a member of the Church and on his way to heaven.  This belief directly contradicts several Catholic dogmas.  The only way around the problem requires the corruption of dogma.  The most common manner in corrupting dogma is to not regard it as a "truth fallen from heaven" but a man-made axiom, that is, a general guideline that is situationally determined.  Another way is to treat dogma not as a "truth fallen from heaven" but perceptive norm which any physical or psychological burden can excuse.
 
St. Pius X quoting Benedict XIV said:

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Our Predecessor, Benedict XIV, had just cause to write: ‘We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect.’ 
Pope St. Pius X, Acerbo Nimis

But corruption of dogma is typically proceeded by corruption of the mind.  No matter what a man believes it will always be found to rest upon first principles that cannot be formally demonstrated.  The Communist believes that nothing exists beyond matter and movement; the Hindu believes that everything perceived by the senses is an illusion; and this is true for every religious or philosophical system.  The faithful Catholic is grounded upon the first principles of the understanding: a thing is what it is, a thing is not what it is not, necessity for sufficient cause, necessity for sufficient reason, etc.  These first principles are infused in man's nature who is made in the 'image and likeness of God'.  Modern philosophy, turning its back on God, is grounded upon an attempt to overthrow the first principles.  That is essentially what Descartes tried to do.  Modernism (and Neo-modernism) as a heresy is, according to St. Pius X grounded upon the philosophy of Kant.  That is, in my opinion, why all modern philosophy is nominalistic with all the destruction that flows from that error.  It is from Descartes and Kant that all modern atheism is grounded.
 
I bring this to you attention because the natural wisdom is characterized by the habit of the first principles.  The world we live in today denies them, usually not directly, but the denial suffuses everything they say and do.  It is the water we are swimming in and it will invariably effect everyone unless they are militant in their opposition.  Neo-modernism is the current style and as the current style is invisible to those who wear it. 
 
Now we can speculate on what method Archbishop Lefebvre used to overturn the literal meaning of dogma but that fact that he did overturn it cannot be disputed.  If you agree with Archbishop Lefebvre that the "good-willed" Buddhist is a member of the Church simple say so.  And then you can offer your own definition of dogma.
 
Drew

Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2019, 10:26:55 AM »
Straw-man much?
Archbishop Lefebvre had a doctorate in theology and his writings display a good understanding of the liturgy and doctrine, including lex orandi lex credendi. He is not infallible, but it's amusing to watch people with much less understanding try to argue that the Archbishop was fundamentally wrong.

Beware of the straw-man!


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2019, 10:57:11 AM »
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The immemorial "received and approved" rite of Mass cannot be abrogated.  Any discussion as whether or not it has been done presupposes that it can be done.

Agree, the True Mass cannot be abrogated.  I never said it had.

I'm saying that the 1962 is ESSENTIALLY, SUBSTANTIALLY and NON-ACCIDENTALLY the same as St Pius V's missal, which is the same as Pope St Gregory's missal of the 400s and which is the same (in all essentials) as what Christ taught the Apostles.

If you are arguing that the 1962 missal has serious, substantial changes to it, then please be specific.


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But the whole purpose of Summorum Pontificuм (SP) was not to "free" the Missal but to restructure the "reform of the reform."  Those who accepted the "freeing" of the 1962 Missal from SP also accepted the legitimacy of the entire liturgical reform in principle and acknowledged that the 1962 Missal and the 1969 Missal were two forms of one rite as necessary conditions for its use.  This last claim is in fact true since both were products of Bugnini's reform principles.

By the way, after Benedict published SP he then revoked additional liturgical reform docuмents specifically the two that brought about the 1965 changes.  The whole thing was therefore a legal scam and the Italian Episcopate may have a valid legal argument.  

You are currently witnessing the revoking of Ecclesia Dei and the Italian Episcopal conference declaring SP illegal.  The argument you are making is not built upon anything more stable than legal opinion.  Even if I were to grant your claim that Benedict was correct and JPII was in error by treating the 1962 Missal as Indult, it makes no difference.  Benedict treated it as a grant of legal privilege.  In fact, SP imposed new requirements on the use of the 1962 Missal that did not exist before.  All those using the 1962 Missal have at least implicitly accepted all these conditions.  It really makes no difference between the two because a "received and approved" immemorial rite grounded upon dogma can no more be a grant of legal privilege than can it be an Indult.  Either way, it reduces the Missal to matter of mere discipline.  As I said in the previous post, Rome has treated the 1962 Missal as a matter of mere discipline from 1962 until this present day without exception.  
All the indult laws are superfluous, contradictory and illegal.  Your points above, while great points, are irrelevant to my argument.  The 1962 missal existed LONG before the indult laws, so these are irrelevant.


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A lengthy book could easily be written on the changes in the 1962 Missal and the damage they have done to the faith.
 Please explain in detail.  I disagree.


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The primary damage is most certainly the relegation of the Missal to a matter of mere discipline.  Still, whether or not the 1962 Missal is the "received and approved" immemorial Roman rite would be moot because it can only be proved by competent authority.  Since "competent authority" is not accessible you and others who adopt the 1962 Missal have taken a position that is liturgically and legally indefensible at this time.
The competant authority is Pope John XXIII, if you believe he was pope.  If you don't believe he was pope, then I see why you would reject the 62 missal.  What is your stance?

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2019, 11:13:08 AM »
This is an article written by Fr Wathen over 10 years ago.  He's not infallible, obviously, but being that his background and training were before V2 and were "normal" (compared to most Trad priests), I would say his opinion carries more weight than Trad priests of our day, who are younger have little to no connection to a diocesan seminary training and the "normal", orthodox Catholic operations of developing priests.



The 1962 Missal
By Fr James F Wathen

"The reader should know that popes periodically have found reason to issue new Missals; Pope St. Pius X did so in 1910. The obvious reason is that, as time goes by, saints are canonized and feast days are assigned to them. In addition, the popes are free to establish new feasts for whatever reason. Pope Pius XII established the feasts the Queenship of Mary (May 31) and St. Joseph the Workman (May 1). All editions of the Missale since 1570 have been essentially the same as the Missale Romanum issued that year, but all of them have been different in that they followed different Calendars. The Missale's Calendar indicates not only what Mass is to said on all the days of the year, but "ranks" the feasts, the highest being a Mass of the First Class with a Privileged Octave."




    Now and then I get a question about the 1962 Roman Missal. My response is that there is nothing wrong with this Missal, in fact, it is an excellent Missal, and there is no reason why a priest should not use it.

  Pope John XXIII did three good things, one was the publication of the encyclical, Veterum sapientia, the second was the reformed Breviary, the third was the 1962 Missale Romanum.

  The Encyclical was a eloquent defense and encomium of Latin as the proper language of the Roman Rite, which alone could serve adequately for the Church's prayers to God. This letter was issued in the year 1961. At the time, there was some discussion about it among priests and and in Catholic publications. We may easily conclude that it was not written by Pope John, but some member of the Roman Curia, one of the conservative cardinals perhaps, who was alarmed at the increasingly loud clamor in favor of the vernacular, particularly in the Mass and the other Sacramental rites. Pope John put his name to the letter, but did nothing to implement it; he probably knew that it was a "dead letter" (no pun intended), as he knew what schemes were "in the works." As a consequence, the Encyclical was all but forgotten. During the 1960s, the vernacular began to be introduced and with time won the day completely. Nothing was done in defense of Latin. Every word in Veterum sapientia has proved to have been well-chosen and prophetic. When the Church is reformed, Latin will be restored.

  Before he died, Pope Pius XII ordered that both the Missale Romanum and the Roman Breviary should be revised. (The Breviary, also called "the Divine Office," is the official prayer book of the Roman Rite, from which every priest was obliged to recite certain prayers every day.) Pius did this in 1955. The new Breviary was published early in the reign of Pope John XXIII, 1960, the Missal in 1962. It was natural that these two tasks be done as one project, in order that both follow the same liturgical calendar; the "Office of the day" is meant to be an extension of the Liturgy of the day. This means that if the Mass is in honor of the Nativity of Our Lady, the Office of the day should be the same.

  Curiously, some Traditionalist priests disturb lay people about the 1962 Missal, for who knows what purpose? Their favorite argument is that the Missal was fathered by Masons in the Vatican, possibly Msgr. Annibale Bugnini. Whether this is true or not--and there is no evidence in the Missal itself that it is--there is no reason why a priest should not use this Missal, if he chooses to. We have one such Missal here at St. Paul's Chapel, and I say Mass here in the same way that I do elsewhere using older Missals.

  The reader should know that popes periodically have found reason to issue new Missals; Pope St. Pius X did so in 1910. The obvious reason is that, as time goes by, saints are canonized and feast days are assigned to them. In addition, the popes are free to establish new feasts for whatever reason. Pope Pius XII established the feasts the Queenship of Mary (May 31) and St. Joseph the Workman (May 1). All editions of the Missale since 1570 have been essentially the same as the Missale Romanum issued that year, but all of them have been different in that they followed different Calendars. The Missale's Calendar indicates not only what Mass is to said on all the days of the year, but "ranks" the feasts, the highest being a Mass of the First Class with a Privileged Octave.

  In introducing the New Breviary, Pope John indicated that the main goal of the revision was a simplification, which meant eliminating certain unnecessary prayers and dropping certain feasts. There is nothing in the 1960 Breviary with which anyone should have any complaint. For the same reason, because the 1962 Missal was part of the same project, the changes to be found in it are altogether unobjectionable, even well-advised.

 Those who revised the Missal must have been reading the same liturgical essays we were reading in the seminary in the 1950s. Not all liturgists were revolutionaries. There were those who called attention to certain things that ought to be changed, because, not surprisingly, through the years since the last edition of the Missal (1925), and before, certain changes had been introduced which were out of keeping with the spirit and tradition of the Roman Rite. Both the Breviary of 1960 and the Missale of 1962 conform closely to this tradition. Most certainly, there is nothing in either of these works which suggests subversion or Liberalism.

  The reason I speak approvingly of the 1962 Missal is that its Calendar is a decided improvement on that of the Missale issued before it, that of Pope Benedict XV. Some of the reasons the Calendar is better are that:

1. The ranking of the feasts is simpler. Before, there were feasts described as Simple, Semiduplex, Duplex, etc. Now there were only six grades of feasts: Simple, Double, Second Class, First Class, First Class feast with a Non-privileged Octave, Christmas, and First Class feast with a Privileged Octave, Easter and Pentecost. If there is no special Mass on a certain day, it is called a "Ferial Day."

2. Now all Sundays are Second Class feasts; if another Second Class feast falls on Sunday, the Sunday Liturgy takes precedence. The purpose of this change is to make sure that the Sunday is given its due prominence. The Sunday Mass is part of the Christological cycle in the Liturgical year, as distinct from the Sanctoral cycle, and it is right that the Sunday Liturgy center on Christ our Savior. Other days in the Christological cycle are all the days of Lent and the Ember Days.
 
3. All the octaves except the three feasts mentioned above were dropped. There were too many octaves, so that the Masses of certain feasts were repeated pointlessly. At times there were two octaves running concurrently (the Octave of St. Stephen during the Christmas Octave).
 
4. The older Missals called for at least two additional Orations (and Secret Prayers and Postcommunion Prayers). Sometimes there was a fourth. During the Second World War, Pope Pius XII commanded that the Prayer for Peace and the Prayer to Our Lady be added at all Masses. Their inclusion caused that sometimes there were as many as four Orations. The 1962 Missal rescinded this accretion, and prescribed that there never be more that two additional Orations. There is no reason not to accept this rescission, as it is contrary to the spirit of the Liturgy to multiply prayers in this manner. The Roman Liturgy avoids anything verbose, sentimental, florid, repetitious, or superfluous; these are reasons why our Liturgy is so substantial, commanding, and admirable.
 
5. Some of the feasts of Saints were dropped completely. There was no harm in this. Some people were greatly alarmed by this, as if the Church was thereby pronouncing that the individuals who, as they amusingly put it, "got the axe," were not in Heaven. It helps to remember that the Saints and Angels are members of the Church, members of the Church Triumphant. The Church is greater than they and the Church in no way diminishes their glory by reducing the rank of their feast days. (You can be sure none of the Saints lose sleep or needed counseling when this happens.)The Saints don't sleep, Dummy! Oh! You’re right. I wasn't thinkin'.)
 
6. The introduction of the name of St. Joseph in the Canon was not new with this Missal. In the first session of the Council, Liberal bishops (probably coached by their more Liberal periti (advisors) began to make a great to-do about the fact that the name of St. Joseph was not in the Canon of the Mass. Their arguments were patently untheological, and patently shallow. They suggested that it was shameful that, after all these centuries, St. Joseph was still missing, as if this was an unpardonable oversight and disparagement toward the Foster Father of Christ, and the Spouse of our Lady--as if to say that our forefathers in the Faith deserved reprimand for such an omission. The reason why St. Joseph's name had never been included thus is obvious: Our Liturgy has its roots in the Church of the city and diocese of Rome. The names included in the Canon were the key personages in the devotion of the first Christians of the Eternal City: The Virgin Mary, St. John the Baptist, the Apostles, the first popes after St. Peter, Linus, Cletus, Clement, and Sixtus, and the great martyr heroes and heroines, who gave their lives for the Faith in Rome. The early Christians did not include the name of St. Joseph in the Mass because he did not take part in the public ministry of Christ and in the great redemptive acts of the Crucifixion, Resurrection, and Ascension, as Mary and the Apostles did, nor in the establishing of the Church in Rome. Through the centuries, the Church gave St. Joseph special recognition and named him the Protector of the Universal Church, but there is still no reason to name him in the Canon.
 
    At the Council, the debate went for many days, when, toward the end of the First Session, Pope John, by his own authority included the name in the Canon. We know now that all the indignant protesting was not inspired by a genuine devotion to St. Joseph, because since the Council, less and less attention has been given to St. Joseph and all the other saints. The whole purpose of the demonstration was to "break the seal" of the sacred Canon of the Mass, to violate that which by its very name was meant to remain sacrosanct, untouchable, and inviolable. We priests who remember those days in 1961 cannot read the Communicantes at Mass without recalling that the adding of the name of St. Joseph was nothing but an irreverent and hypocritical tactic. We have had time to see that those who trashed the ancient Liturgy care nothing for the honor of St. Joseph, his most chaste Spouse, the Mother of our Savior, nor for our Savior Himself. Regardless, there is no point of argument now. No harm is done by omitting St. Joseph's name, or including it. The Church will settle this matter in a saner day.
 
7. The 1962 Missal contains the "Restored Order of Holy Week," which was introduced by Pope Pius XII in 1956. It is markedly different from the 1962 Missal and was a harbinger of what might have been expected in a future liturgical reform. It is acceptable, but faulty, because it contains signs of Modernist/Liberal influence; it is meant to condition the faithful for things to come. The 1962 Missal was discarded with the introduction of the Novus Ordo Missae in 1969; the Restored Order of Holy Week is still very much with us.
 
    A glaring example of the Modernist mindset in the Holy Week Ritual is to be found in the Great Prayers of Good Friday. One of these Prayers, the eighth, is "For the Conversion of the Jews." In older Missals, the Prayer refers to the Jews as "perfidious" ("Oremus et pro Judaeis perfidis"). In the "Restored Order of Holy Week," the word perfidis is omitted.
 
    Moreover, the eighth Prayer is exceptional in the following respect: The other eight Prayers are for various intentions--the Church as a whole, the Catholic faithful, catechumens, those in false religions (who are referred to as heretics and schismatics), etc. Between the Invocation, that is, the invitation to pray for the following intention and why, and the Prayer itself, the priest (or deacon) invites the people: Oremus. Flectamus genua. (Let us pray. Let us genuflect.) The subdeacon, or the choir, or the people, respond: Levate. (Rise). In the old Liturgy, at the eighth Prayer, these words and this genuflection were conspicuously omitted. A prayer was offered for the conversion of the Jews, but this point of difference called attention to the experience that the Church has had with the Jews through the centuries, particularly to the tens of thousands of Jews who, during various epochs and in multiple places, entered the Church not to save their souls, but either for their personal, earthly gain, or for the sake of subverting it, or seizing control of it. The New Holy Week Liturgy prescribes that the Oremus, Flectamus genua, etc. be included, that the exception be removed. In such a seemingly inconsequential alteration, the revisers of the Liturgy gave vent to their opinion that, in effect, the centuries-old exception was improper, unchristian, and reprehensible, thus suggesting that the Church had been wrong in this rubric. It is due to this kind of thinking that while the clergy, led by the Pope, grovel in penitence and apology at the manner in which the Church found it necessary to deal with the impenitent "offspring of the Pharisees" through the centuries, the Church defaces and disfigures and deforms itself, and the тαℓмυdic onslaught on all things Catholic, Christian, and supernatural proceeds in a rush. It is no exaggeration to say that the Church has been most orthodox and fruitful, when it has manifested true understanding of the Jews as Christ's and its own worst human enemies.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2019, 11:16:18 AM »
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