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Author Topic: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei  (Read 58496 times)

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #225 on: February 04, 2019, 08:23:52 PM »

The reason for canon XIII was your insistence that Pope Pius V had created a "new rite". In case you forgot:

https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/a-step-for-the-regularization-of-the-sspx-dissolution-of-ecclesia-dei/msg641628/#msg641628

No other comments. Good luck.

The fact that he did, even if you want to insist that Quo Primum was only a revision or restoration of the "immemorial rite", proves that the canon indeed excludes the Pope. Once a liturgical rite receives the approbation of the Supreme Pontiff, as previously said, such rite becomes part of the "received and approved" ones used by the Catholic Church. It is the right of the Holy See alone and not yours, to determine which revisions are valid and safe for the faithful.


From Pope Leo XIII, in Apostolicae Curae:

Quote
24. In the examination of any rite for the effecting and administering of Sacraments, distinction is rightly made between the part which is ceremonial and that which is essential, the latter being usually called the “matter and form”. All know that the Sacraments of the New Law, as sensible and efficient signs of invisible grace, ought both to signify the grace which they effect, and effect the grace which they signify. Although the signification ought to be found in the whole essential rite, that is to say, in the “matter and form”, it still pertains chiefly to the “form”; since the “matter” is the part which is not determined by itself, but which is determined by the “form”.

The only possible way that the 62's Missal is defective is if John XXIII was not a true Pope of the Catholic Church, so the Holy See did not really promulgated it. Otherwise, there is no reason to believe that the "essential" of the Mass has been changed. The right for the "examination of any rite" belongs to the Holy See alone, as well as for the "effecting and administering of Sacraments".

Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #226 on: February 04, 2019, 08:39:20 PM »
There is a historical example of a pope declaring a “received and approved” rite illegal and this “law” was overturned and declared to have been unjust, that is, it was declared to not have been a law at all.  Therefore, should the pope attempt this act he need not be obeyed.   He does not possess the authority to overturn the dogmatically established rites or the authority to enact laws that are contrary to right reason and against the common good.  This is fully consistent with what Msgr. Gamber said which I previously posted, and it is fully consistent with Catholic moral theology, which I also previously posted.

The only historical evidence here is that, consistent to the teachings of the Catholic Church, "the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification" (Mediator Dei,58 ).

A pope wanted to suppress a rite (Ambrosian) and passed a law to that effect. During his pontificate, the law remained valid. The next pope overturned it. That is a historical example of popes having equal authority on matters of discipline such liturgical rites. You want to see here an encouraging example for "resistance" on the part of the laity, but there is nothing really to it. Ultimately, it was the decision of a pope alone which did away with the "unjust" law of the previous pope. A pope is not superior to the other.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #227 on: February 04, 2019, 09:39:57 PM »
Agree on both points, Cantarella.  Drew wants to take the approach that he will ignore the 62 missal unless a FUTURE pope confirms that it’s ok.  In absense of a grave reason to ignore the missal, the logic should be the other way around.  If John was the pope, we have to accept his missal until it’s been outlawed by a future pope.  

I don’t want to get into sedevacantism here but...it’s ironic that Drew uses the same sede logic which he so vehemently opposes.  The sedes argue that the pope is not the pope due to grave reasons, unless a future one clarifies the matter.  I argue that, in both the liturgy and the papacy, you must have a grave and CERTAIN reason to declare either the pope or the liturgy to be ignored.  

With the 62 missal, we have circuмstantially grave reasons (ie Bugnini) but the changes themselves aren’t certain and factually bad.  You could argue that the indult makes it a certainty but I would argue that the indult laws are unnecessary, being that the original permission granted for the 62 missal was never abolished...a legal fact Drew continues to ignore.  This fact brings the argument back full circle and we are left to judge the 62 missal on its liturgical/doctrinal merits alone, which cannot be said to be objectively wrong, therefore we must logically assume the missal is valid until a future pope says otherwise.  Assuming that John was a valid pope...

Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #228 on: February 04, 2019, 09:44:06 PM »
The question is still of no interest and it has nothing to do with the consequences of the argument.  It is not possible for the “received and approved” immemorial Roman rite to be reduced to the status of an Indult or grant of legal privilege regardless of the conditions.  It becomes even more unpalatable when the conditions are morally and doctrinally repugnant.  
What I think you're saying is that you think the 1949 missal is the "received and approved" rite, so any attempt to give it as an indult would be void. If so, how is that different than Pax's argument about the 1962 missal - that 1962 is "received and approved" and the later attempt to give it as an indult is void? The 1962 missal, like the missals before, included Quo Primum and the constitutions of Urban VIII and Clement VIII; it is prima facie in the line of revisions of the missal of St. Pius V. This is unlike the missal of Paul VI which only has the constitution of Paul VI - it clearly started a new line.

However, if you're saying that 1949 has the capacity to be "received and approved" because as far as you know it hasn't been given as an indult, that is a question of fact. Indults have been given for things other than 1962. I recalled one for a church to use 1949, but unfortunately can't find verification any more, so something may have changed, 

Nevertheless, as you must know, the FSSP has an indult to use the old holy week (from before 1952). According to the way you apply your argument to 1962, because the old holy week has been given as an indult, and an indult is not compatible with the received and approved rite, the old holy week cannot be the received and approved rite.

I could see someone object that this FSSP indult is for only the FSSP, and it has one prayer different (and I'm sure you can guess which one if you didn't already know). If so, then consider that the SSPX (and probably many other priests using 1962 missals) do some details different, too

Re: A Step for the Regularization of the SSPX? - Dissolution of Ecclesia Dei
« Reply #229 on: February 05, 2019, 02:50:07 AM »
The Need for Mutual Humility and Support Between the SSPX and the FSSP
PETER KWASNIEWSKI

We all know about the recent decision to suppress the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei. In reaction, the SSPX issued this snubbing statement:

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2019/02/the-need-for-mutual-humility-and.html