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Author Topic: Starting a Mass Centre  (Read 5326 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Starting a Mass Centre
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2022, 01:48:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on December 13, 2022, 01:24:43 PM
    So you are obligated to go to a Mass celebrated by a man who confers doubtful sacraments? He is a real priest, but a doubtful bishop.
    He allegedly allows his lay supporters to practice occult rites.
    What about his preaching? Is it free from error?
    Using this logic, we would be obliged to attend an indult mass, if it is celebrated by a valid priest.
    This doesn't sound right to me at all.

    It doesn’t sound right to you because your Catholic sense is kicking in. 🙂
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #16 on: December 13, 2022, 02:02:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on December 13, 2022, 01:24:43 PM
    So you are obligated to go to a Mass celebrated by a man who confers doubtful sacraments? 

    I think +Williamson said the sacraments are valid.
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    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #17 on: December 13, 2022, 02:11:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on December 13, 2022, 02:02:55 PM
    I think +Williamson said the sacraments are valid.

    Fr. Pfeiffer's episcopal consecration was long discussed here on this board when it took place.

    The consesus was that it was doubtful, if I remember correctly.

    It would be wise to revisit that thread if you are seriously considering going to Fr. Pfeiffer's to receive the sacraments.

    About Bp. Williamson, I have never seem him disapproving the doubtful Novus Ordos priests who were admitted to the SSPX without a conditional ordination, so, unfortunately, his opinion on the validity of sacraments must be considered with great caution.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #18 on: December 13, 2022, 02:16:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on December 13, 2022, 01:42:05 PM
    Who sent him? Who gave him the authority to set up a chapel? The Church didn’t set up that chapel, he did by his own volition. You are only obliged to go to a mass that the Church Herself authorizes.

    hmmm :confused: ... food for thought.  Since technically no Traditional chapel has canonical recognition and authorization, does this mean Trad Catholics are not technically / legally obliged to assist at those Masses on Sundays?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #19 on: December 13, 2022, 02:27:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on December 13, 2022, 01:24:43 PM
    So you are obligated to go to a Mass celebrated by a man who confers doubtful sacraments? He is a real priest, but a doubtful bishop.
    He allegedly allows his lay supporters to practice occult rites.
    What about his preaching? Is it free from error?
    Using this logic, we would be obliged to attend an indult mass, if it is celebrated by a valid priest.
    This doesn't sound right to me at all.
    He is a valid priest, why do you say his sacraments are doubtful? 
    It is tragic  but too bad for him and his supporters.
    Walk out when he starts his sermon. Very, very easy to do. I've done it enough times in the early days of this crisis to tell you it is very easy, almost too easy to do.
    No, I always avoid all things NO, that includes the NO's indult.

    It does not sound right because in this age of "the wild west" of traditionalists, necessity dictates that we be judge and jury on everything, but the law of the Church still obliges us under pain of mortal sin to get to Mass if there is one we can get to. We have no choice in this. Whatever “bishop” Pfeiffer is or is not, he still is certainly a validly ordained priest who offers the Holy Sacrifice that we are obligated, under pain of mortal sin to attend. 

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #20 on: December 13, 2022, 02:31:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on December 13, 2022, 01:42:05 PM
    Who sent him? Who gave him the authority to set up a chapel? The Church didn’t set up that chapel, he did by his own volition. You are only obliged to go to a mass that the Church Herself authorizes.
    He was ordained in Winona in 1994 so his ordination is valid, and he was sent by the same authority that sends all trad priests - that's a whole other discussion I think. 

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #21 on: December 13, 2022, 02:39:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on December 13, 2022, 02:11:48 PM
    Fr. Pfeiffer's episcopal consecration was long discussed here on this board when it took place.

    The consesus was that it was doubtful, if I remember correctly.

    It would be wise to revisit that thread if you are seriously considering going to Fr. Pfeiffer's to receive the sacraments.

    About Bp. Williamson, I have never seem him disapproving the doubtful Novus Ordos priests who were admitted to the SSPX without a conditional ordination, so, unfortunately, his opinion on the validity of sacraments must be considered with great caution.
    Personally, I doubt he is a bishop, but if he is a bishop he is in big trouble with Our Lord - that's my opinion. But we can and must get to Mass to fulfill our obligation to the Church or we sin. Too many trads do not take this obligation as serious as they should imo. My opinion remains, I will stick with the law of the Church and attend his Mass if that was all I had. I would not recommend listening to his council in confession unless it was soundly Catholic, but I would go to get absolution from him - that's what matters.

    We do not need to receive his communion, that obligation is for us to receive communion once a year - or we commit a mortal sin, that's another of the Church's laws. We're supposed to do what we can to abide by her laws whenever we can, and in this case of QVD's scenario, we can.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #22 on: December 13, 2022, 02:52:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on December 13, 2022, 02:27:30 PM
    He is a valid priest, why do you say his sacraments are doubtful?
    ...
    We have no choice in this. Whatever “bishop” Pfeiffer is or is not, he still is certainly a validly ordained priest who offers the Holy Sacrifice that we are obligated, under pain of mortal sin to attend.

    Well, his Mass is certainly valid, but not so sure about those offered by "priests" that he might ordain, or other people with doubtful orders that he's been known to parade through Boston.

    I have no issues with the validity of the +Thuc line, though there is a weak link in Bishop Webster's priestly lineage (there's a docuмent indicating that too was resolved), but the first attempt by +Webster to consecrated Fr. Pfeiffer was clearly invalid (not even just doubtful).  They claim it was redone conditionally later, but we have only their word for it, and the credibility of their assessment that the second attempt was valid is undermined by their claims that the first one was valid.
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #23 on: December 13, 2022, 03:14:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on December 13, 2022, 02:11:48 PM
    About Bp. Williamson, I have never seen him disapproving the doubtful Novus Ordos priests who were admitted to the SSPX without a conditional ordination, so, unfortunately, his opinion on the validity of sacraments must be considered with great caution.

    I agree and my statement was done partly in jest.  What seems to be happening is a complete reversal of logic - one can attend the New Order Bastard Service, which is valid and produces miracles, but going to a trad priest whose Ordination is without question is to be avoided (due mainly to the bizarre 'Consecration' but also because he disagrees with +Williamson).

    I'm getting the idea from a few people on CathInfo that there's more of an issue with other trads than with the New Order established by the enemies of the Church.  Funny stuff.  I'm open to having my mind changed.
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #24 on: December 13, 2022, 03:26:03 PM »
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    • Quote
    going to Mass is a man made rule of the Church 

    The OP makes the mistake of calling the Church a human institution. It is a Divine institution.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #25 on: December 13, 2022, 03:55:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on December 13, 2022, 02:52:27 PM
    Well, his Mass is certainly valid, but not so sure about those offered by "priests" that he might ordain, or other people with doubtful orders that he's been known to parade through Boston.

    I have no issues with the validity of the +Thuc line, though there is a weak link in Bishop Webster's priestly lineage (there's a docuмent indicating that too was resolved), but the first attempt by +Webster to consecrated Fr. Pfeiffer was clearly invalid (not even just doubtful).  They claim it was redone conditionally later, but we have only their word for it, and the credibility of their assessment that the second attempt was valid is undermined by their claims that the first one was valid.
    Yes, I would avoid his priests as I do NO priests, to me his whole consecration fiasco was like something out of a movie or something, so for me I simply completely avoid that whole saga.

    As for +Thuc, I think people simply accept a lot of confusing or misinformation about him. His consecrations are valid even if illicit. His main problem, imo, was that he consecrated a lot of bishops he probably should not have, but what's done cannot be undone, again, imo.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #26 on: December 13, 2022, 04:12:22 PM »
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    • There is no obligation (under pain of sin) to attend any particular lifeboat. We are all obligated to DO OUR BEST to KEEP THE FAITH especially if we have souls under our charge.

    But the choice of which lifeboat -- which Mass/Sacraments provider to make use of -- that is left to our own wisdom and prudence.

    No one, not even a lay pope on CathInfo, can bind anyone's conscience in this matter. God will judge each of us, that we did our best with what we had (what choices we had, our own particular situation). And no one knows your EXACT situation like you do. That's why we all must give our fellow Catholics the benefit of the doubt, and not try to compel their consciences under threats of mortal sin.

    And yes, I believe it highly prudent to avoid Fr. Pfeiffer's cult AT ALL COSTS, as in "even if you have no other option than staying home 365 days a year and getting ZERO Masses".

    Because there are worse situations, and worse fates, than having no Mass to attend. Many saints believed a bad priest was worse than no priest, for example. That's where I'm getting my opinion/thinking on this issue.

    Let's put it this way: if priests with dangerous errors weren't justification for staying home on Sunday, then WHAT IN THE HECK HAVE WE TRADS BEEN DOING THIS PAST 50 YEARS? Isn't this concept the very foundation and justification for the Traditional Movement? That the Novus Ordo has destroyed souls, and so it is prudent/humble to NOT EXPOSE OURSELVES to such cunning, crafty errors that have deceived many? Wouldn't a Trad cult with a charismatic leader qualify, as much as your average Novus Ordo priest?

    See, it's not just about the Mass. It's about the Faith. It's always been about the Faith.

    Just like in the 90's, it was a better move to send your kids to public school than a Novus Ordo "Catholic" school. Because NO religious instruction, where your defenses are up against all the pagans, can be BETTER than being sent to a "safe" place like a "Catholic" school where they will imbibe heresy and error, where their defenses will NOT be up.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #27 on: December 13, 2022, 05:00:43 PM »
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    • If we are not obligated, then why not be a home-aloner? 
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    Offline Marius

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #28 on: December 13, 2022, 05:08:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on December 13, 2022, 02:27:30 PM
    He is a valid priest, why do you say his sacraments are doubtful?
    It is tragic  but too bad for him and his supporters.
    Walk out when he starts his sermon. Very, very easy to do. I've done it enough times in the early days of this crisis to tell you it is very easy, almost too easy to do.
    No, I always avoid all things NO, that includes the NO's indult.

    It does not sound right because in this age of "the wild west" of traditionalists, necessity dictates that we be judge and jury on everything, but the law of the Church still obliges us under pain of mortal sin to get to Mass if there is one we can get to. We have no choice in this. Whatever “bishop” Pfeiffer is or is not, he still is certainly a validly ordained priest who offers the Holy Sacrifice that we are obligated, under pain of mortal sin to attend.
    This is my understanding as well, so long as the Priest and Mass are themselves valid, that the obligation does not cease.
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    Offline Marius

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    Re: Starting a Mass Centre
    « Reply #29 on: December 13, 2022, 05:10:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on December 13, 2022, 05:00:43 PM
    If we are not obligated, then why not be a home-aloner?
    Similar to the Dimond's argument to avoid all Traditionalist priests who do not ascribe to their views.
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