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Author Topic: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?  (Read 2250 times)

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Offline claudel

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Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2020, 05:14:15 PM »
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  • You must be really popular with the ladies. You have a great personality, Mr. Rosenbaum. Perhaps you would be so kind as to give me some Yiddish lessons sometime?

    … still awaiting your analysis, kiddo.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
    « Reply #31 on: October 08, 2020, 05:16:55 PM »
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  • I tend to agree with Tradman and Claudel.  Having said that, it is not a popular view among a number of Catholics.  It would be interesting to see a poll here.


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
    « Reply #32 on: October 08, 2020, 05:18:15 PM »
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  • Yes, it's a good summation of the sorry situation we all find ourselves in. The only thing Tradman omits—or rather, that I'd add—is that Trump seems to have relinquished his thinking capacity to his son-in-law, Jared Kushner. Indeed, Kushner might as well be de facto president. Nothing that Trump has said or done in the past year has been consonant with the platform that won him the 2016 election. Together, Trump and Kushner have tossed into the trash every point of advantage that Biden and hαɾɾιs have handed them.
    Agreed

    Offline claudel

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    Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
    « Reply #33 on: October 08, 2020, 05:19:19 PM »
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  • It is unfortunate that it used the expression "lesser of two evils" since that is not a Catholic idea.

    Pace you and Ladislaus, however, it is not an un-Catholic idea. It is a category of choice that good Catholics confront virtually every day.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
    « Reply #34 on: October 08, 2020, 05:38:31 PM »
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  • I think that this one aspect of the assessment overreaches. That is to say, whether it's correct or not hardly matters, because the great mass of those who plan to vote for Trump—even those at this website!—perceive him as the only rational choice in a situation where they see just one other option: a pair of candidates who rival Hillary Clinton for sheer wickedness and surpass her for stupidity. Please note that I write the foregoing as someone who hasn't voted since the great Gingrich betrayal of 1994 forever ripped the scales from my eyes.

    For better or worse, however, abstaining from voting remains an alternative that has failed to acquire critical mass. Whether it ever will is something that might soon become a moot point if the Establishment's plans for societal disruption following an apparent Trump victory go forward in the manner that the alternative media have revealed. In other words, I am telling my seventy-five-year-old bones and sinews that they will have to acquire the flexibility needed to be a doomsday prepper!
    Doomsday prepper seems to carry such negative connotation, but I've been doing it for several months because 1. Prepping can't hurt.  2. Not prepping can hurt a lot.    


    Offline claudel

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    Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
    « Reply #35 on: October 08, 2020, 05:59:05 PM »
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  • 1. Prepping can't hurt. 2. Not prepping can hurt a lot.    

    I hear you. Perhaps, like me, you have been taught a lesson by the ongoing covid hoax. Here we are, eight months in, and such taken-for-granted stuff as Tilex-style bathroom cleaner, hydrogen peroxide, and isopropyl alcohol remains difficult to get at less than five times their pre-hoax price—if one can even get them at all. At least toilet paper seems no longer to be vying with platinum for priceyness, but will that still be true after the election?

    As it happens, I have only myself to feed, and so I don't expect to find myself writing to poche with a request for a few packages from his thirty-year supply of Velveeta.

    Offline Your Friend Colin

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    Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
    « Reply #36 on: October 08, 2020, 06:15:33 PM »
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  • This article is immediately discredited by the use of the term "lesser of two evils".  That is alien to the fundamental principles of Catholic moral theology.

    It bases the opinion on the ramblings of a Modernist from the 1950s which makes no consideration regarding the principle of double effect, the only principle by which one can do something that has an unintended evil outcome, but argues from purely utilitarian principles.  One major flaw with Novus Ordo Watch is that they tend to subscribe to "Fifties-ism," believing that everything written before the magical year 1958 is automatically orthodox and authoritative, whereas the decay in Catholic theology was already far advanced by then.
    Do you have a citation from a Catholic source stating that the popular expression, “lesser of two evils”, is non-Catholic?

    Fr. Cranny’s dissertation received the approbation of the Church. It bears the nihil obstat of Fr. Francis Connell. You’re asking us to believe you rather than Fr. Cranny, Fr. Connell and Abp O’Boyle. Frs. McHugh and Callan teach that it is permissible to vote for an unworthy candidate to prevent a greater evil. 

    Fr. Cranny cites Tanqueray, Prummer, Merkelbach and numerous other theologians to prove his assertions - which presumably all bear ecclesiastical approbation. Your accusation of calling Fr. Cranny a Modernist and thus his work is ridiculous. 

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
    « Reply #37 on: October 08, 2020, 06:54:16 PM »
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  • As you know, it is the traditional position that it is morally permissible to vote for unworthy candidates under certain circuмstances. This position is grounded in Catholic moral theology, not utilitarianism.

    You see, I'm not buying that.  It's a position that is oft repeated, but I have never seen it treated rigorously from the standpoint of Catholic moral theological principles.  When someone balances degrees of good and evil, one is squarely in the utilitarian mindset.  Catholic moral theology unequivocally holds, almost as its first principle, that one can never do evil even if to prevent some greater evil, i.e. the end does not justify the means.  I have not yet seen a serious theological treatment of the issue which makes this clear.  There's only one way in which Catholics can perform an act that has an evil outcome, and that is based on the principle of double effect.  Again, I have not seen a serious and rigorous theological treatment among a Traditional Catholic theologian regarding the application of double effect to voting.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
    « Reply #38 on: October 08, 2020, 06:57:49 PM »
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  • Pace you and Ladislaus, however, it is not an un-Catholic idea. It is a category of choice that good Catholics confront virtually every day.

    No, claudel, it most certainly is un-Catholic.  As per my previous post, it violates what is practically the first principle of Catholic moral theology, that one cannot perform an evil act even if to prevent a greater evil, i.e. that the end does not justify the means.  This principle is what distinguishes the Catholic moral system from all others.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
    « Reply #39 on: October 08, 2020, 07:40:26 PM »
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  • Can you give any examples of how Trump actually promoted LGBT crap?  I know he says he is the most LGBT president ever and he has waved the rainbow flag but that looks like just a lot of talk and no action.  He prevented govt paying for gender transitions.  He stopped the navy from modifying traditional military culture to accommodate gender-neutral terminology.  That's why sodomites hate him and vote Demonrat.  Planned Parenthood funding is not his fault.  He is pro-life.  He attended the pro-life rally in DC.  No other president has ever done that.  Mike Pence re-affirmed that position in the VP debate.  If PP funding increased, you can attribute that to the necessity of making deals both with Congressional Republicans and with the Demonrats.  If you don't make deals, you don't get anything done.  If you don't get anything done, you don't get re-elected.  There's only so much one man can do.  He is dependent on getting support both from Republican lawmakers as well as the general public.  If PP funding went up it is because jackasses are not voting for pro-life candidates that have a chance of winning.  Instead they want to pretend that they are above the fray and superior to the rest of us dolts who actually vote for viable candidates.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
    « Reply #40 on: October 08, 2020, 08:29:47 PM »
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  • Can you give any examples of how Trump actually promoted LGBT crap?  I know he says he is the most LGBT president ever and he has waved the rainbow flag but that looks like just a lot of talk and no action.  He prevented govt paying for gender transitions.  He stopped the navy from modifying traditional military culture to accommodate gender-neutral terminology.  That's why sodomites hate him and vote Demonrat.  Planned Parenthood funding is not his fault.  He is pro-life.  He attended the pro-life rally in DC.  No other president has ever done that.  Mike Pence re-affirmed that position in the VP debate.  If PP funding increased, you can attribute that to the necessity of making deals both with Congressional Republicans and with the Demonrats.  If you don't make deals, you don't get anything done.  If you don't get anything done, you don't get re-elected.  There's only so much one man can do.  He is dependent on getting support both from Republican lawmakers as well as the general public.  If PP funding went up it is because jackasses are not voting for pro-life candidates that have a chance of winning.  Instead they want to pretend that they are above the fray and superior to the rest of us dolts who actually vote for viable candidates.
    https://thepostmillennial.com/trump-is-objectively-the-most-pro-gαy-president-in-history/
    Trump is not really pro life except in the US where his election depends on SAYING he's pro life and making sure people believe him HERE.  12 Billion dollars for Bill Gates' population control GAVI is proof that Trump is double dealing. GAVI is an abortion promoting, birth control supporting, vaccination pushing, population control entity in the name of health organization that is destroying lives over seas.  There is no excuse for Trump backing Bill Gates with billions of dollars.        


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
    « Reply #41 on: October 08, 2020, 08:39:04 PM »
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  • https://thepostmillennial.com/trump-is-objectively-the-most-pro-gαy-president-in-history/
    Trump is not really pro life except in the US where his election depends on SAYING he's pro life and making sure people believe him HERE.  12 Billion dollars for Bill Gates' population control GAVI is proof that Trump is double dealing. GAVI is an abortion promoting, birth control supporting, vaccination pushing, population control entity in the name of health organization that is destroying lives over seas.  There is no excuse for Trump backing Bill Gates with billions of dollars.        
    So the US govt never funded GAVI before Trump was elected in 2016?  And Trump personally insisted that funding be added for GAVI or he wouldn't sign the bill?  I don't think you understand how the US political process works.  Trump doesn't get to sculpt the budget into his own likeness and image.  He has to work with Congress and the Senate.  For the last two years Congress was controlled by the Demonrats.  So his power to dictate the budget is limited.  It is a compromise.  If he doesn't compromise then he gets blamed for holding up the budget.  And then more Demonrats get elected.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
    « Reply #42 on: October 08, 2020, 08:46:37 PM »
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  • https://www.thelastamericanvagabond.com/vaccine-bait-switch-millions-pulled-from-who-trump-gives-billions-gates-founded-gavi/

    Make no mistake, the vaccination push by GAVI works in the name of "health" which actually translates in third world countries to abortion on demand and forced birth control. Trump counts on rallies and speeches and sound bites, saying he's pro life, takes great pains to show he stands against abortion, yet he funnels money to destroy life overseas where no one is watching.  And guess what? The scam is working. Not one single traditional Catholic group has fully exposed this and all of them support Trump because at least in the US, Trump is pro life and Biden is such a liberal pile of crap, that no one will bat an eye to what Trump is really up to.  The real enemy, Satan, is way ahead of us this time, and in order to stop the bleeding that will bring devastation to our country, we really only need to quit making excuses for the likes of Trump and those elite who are more clever than ever at making the world a better place for demonic worship.      

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
    « Reply #43 on: October 08, 2020, 08:52:20 PM »
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  • Anyone who opposes Trump is in my mind immediately suspect of being a subversive cultural marxist.  He is the most anti-marxist president ever.  That's why the left hates him so much they have fallen into Trump Derangement Syndrome.  The left has become a coalition of feminists, sodomites, blacks, and immigrants who use identity politics and victim status to co-opt our traditional western values (Christendom).  Their goal is to seize control of all of our institutions and use them to advance their anti-christian (anti-Catholic really) agenda.  If you think funding for GAVI is bad now, just let Joe Biden get elected and see how much funding goes to GAVI then.  Let's see what happens when the Demonrats control both houses and the president.  Do you remember during Obama's terms how the FBI was using the Southern Poverty Law Center's hate list to classify traditional Catholics as a hate group?  If the Demonrats control everything, your chapel (if you are traditional Catholic, which I wonder about) will be a hate group center needing to be closed down by the govt authorities.  You'll be lucky if they don't throw you in jail.  On the upside, you will have plenty of time to wring your hands over GAVI funding.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
    « Reply #44 on: October 08, 2020, 08:57:13 PM »
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  • It wouldn't surprise me if the Demonrats hired people to infiltrate Catholic sites to demoralize them and encourage them to not vote or to write in a loser candidate who has no chance of winning.  It really isn't going to cost them that much.  George Soros has billions to spend on this type of infiltration and it fits right in with the cultural marxist strategy.