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Traditional Catholic Faith => Politics and World Leaders => Topic started by: Christs Servant on October 07, 2020, 08:37:54 AM

Title: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Christs Servant on October 07, 2020, 08:37:54 AM
With both presidential candidates espousing support for ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, war hungry Israel, Jews & Judaism, abortion (Biden), and overall social immorality, is it even morally permissible to vote this election? Would it be a mortal sin?

What are your thoughts?
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Last Tradhican on October 07, 2020, 09:41:45 AM
Quote from: Christs Servant on October 07, 2020, 08:37:54 AM
With both presidential candidates espousing support for ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, war hungry Israel, Jews & Judaism, abortion (Biden), and overall social immorality, is it even morally permissible to vote this election? Would it be a mortal sin?

What are your thoughts?
It is not morally permissible to vote for any abortionist. So Catholics can't vote for Biden.

So, the question becomes is it morally permissible to vote for a presidential candidate espousing support for ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, war hungry Israel, Jews & Judaism?

I am voting for Trump despite his espousing support for ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, war hungry Israel, Jews & Judaism. If Biden wins, we will go on a fast track train into abortion, Euthanasia, forced killer vaccines, population control, gun confiscation and  total slavery. Not much of a choice. At least Trump gives us some time to breathe for a good pope to come and rescue the world, or Trump's conversion.  

It is only by God's Will that Trump or Biden wins. 
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: RomanCatholic1953 on October 07, 2020, 09:59:02 AM
Vote for Trump.

Biden and the Democrats will bring great evils to the country and the world.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Matthew on October 07, 2020, 04:50:39 PM
Quote from: RomanCatholic1953 on October 07, 2020, 09:59:02 AM
Vote for Trump.

Biden and the Democrats will bring great evils to the country and the world.
This!
Of course it's morally permissible to vote in this election.
We're at a crossroads. It's actually quite imperative.

Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Seraphina on October 07, 2020, 08:30:12 PM
Yes, it’s morally permissible if it’s morally permissible to vote for one immoral candidate to prevent an even more immoral candidate from winning.  
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Tradman on October 08, 2020, 10:32:07 AM
Quote from: Last Tradhican on October 07, 2020, 09:41:45 AM
It is not morally permissible to vote for any abortionist. So Catholics can't vote for Biden.

So, the question becomes is it morally permissible to vote for a presidential candidate espousing support for ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, war hungry Israel, Jews & Judaism?

I am voting for Trump despite his espousing support for ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, war hungry Israel, Jews & Judaism. If Biden wins, we will go on a fast track train into abortion, Euthanasia, forced killer vaccines, population control, gun confiscation and  total slavery. Not much of a choice. At least Trump gives us some time to breathe for a good pope to come and rescue the world, or Trump's conversion.  

It is only by God's Will that Trump or Biden wins.
It is every voter's duty to stay informed.  Information proves there is no lesser of two evils in this POTUS race.  Trump just funded Bill Gate's GAVI population control foundation to the tune of 12 Billion dollars after the WHO's top guns moved to GAVI from the WHO.  WHO and GAVI have the same agenda, but if you don't know what that is, know that Bill Gates is the founder of GAVI. The 12 Billion from Trump to Bill Gates exceeds by far money given by Obama's 600 million to WHO.  GAVI funds abortion, birth control and sterilizing vaccines under the guise of health care in third world countries, and it has Agenda 30 goals for reducing population worldwide.  So, on the US side, Trump is a saint.  Out the backdoor he's RBG.  Biden and Trump are both pro gαy, and Trump's daughter Ivanka is pushing hard for world wide vaccines for every person. Trump's son-in-law is working for Israel's interests with connections to huge sums of money through Trump. Trump and the rest of the Billionaires have increased their net worth up to 50% in the last 6 months thanks to Covid, while the money they stole was the last change in people's pockets. Anyone who thinks Trump is good, is caught up in the game of politics and banks on phantom gains, ignoring the bigger picture.  Trump is using the most advanced techniques in politics: Play your constituents like a fiddle and you'll have no opposition to what you're really up to.  If people voted their consciences for real, they could not vote for either candidate, but ought to go home and pray like never before.        
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Jaynek on October 08, 2020, 03:14:11 PM
Yes, it is morally permissible.  Here is an article explaining the principles of moral theology on which this conclusion is based:  https://novusordowatch.org/2020/09/morality-of-voting-permissible-lesser-of-two-evils/ (https://novusordowatch.org/2020/09/morality-of-voting-permissible-lesser-of-two-evils/)
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Ladislaus on October 08, 2020, 03:51:08 PM
Quote from: Christs Servant on October 07, 2020, 08:37:54 AM
With both presidential candidates espousing support for ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, war hungry Israel, Jews & Judaism, abortion (Biden), and overall social immorality, is it even morally permissible to vote this election? Would it be a mortal sin?

What are your thoughts?

Of course it's permissible to vote.

Or do you mean vote for either Trump or Biden?

I hold that a Catholic cannot vote for either of these two.

There's a Constitution Party candidate and voters can also write someone in.  I tend to write in Pat Buchanan.

Trump promotes sodomy and the funding for Planned Parenthood increased by a record amount under Trump.  This support for Planned Parenthood undermines the argument from double effect that might otherwise justify a vote for Trump despite his promotion of sodomy.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Christs Servant on October 08, 2020, 03:54:08 PM
Quote from: Ladislaus on October 08, 2020, 03:51:08 PM
Of course it's permissible to vote.

Or do you mean vote for either Trump or Biden?

I hold that a Catholic cannot vote for either of these two.

There's a Constitution Party candidate and voters can also write someone in.  I tend to write in Pat Buchanan.

Trump promotes sodomy and the funding for Planned Parenthood increased by a record amount under Trump.  This support for Planned Parenthood undermines the argument from double effect that might otherwise justify a vote for Trump despite his promotion of sodomy.
I meant during this upcoming election due to both Biden & Trump holding to deeply immoral policies, visions, and actions.
The more I read about President Trump, the more I come to agree with your view. I think, ultimately, it is better to sit this one out as a Catholic.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Ladislaus on October 08, 2020, 03:55:09 PM
Quote from: Jaynek on October 08, 2020, 03:14:11 PM
Yes, it is morally permissible.  Here is an article explaining the principles of moral theology on which this conclusion is based:  https://novusordowatch.org/2020/09/morality-of-voting-permissible-lesser-of-two-evils/ (https://novusordowatch.org/2020/09/morality-of-voting-permissible-lesser-of-two-evils/)

This article is immediately discredited by the use of the term "lesser of two evils".  That is alien to the fundamental principles of Catholic moral theology.

It bases the opinion on the ramblings of a Modernist from the 1950s which makes no consideration regarding the principle of double effect, the only principle by which one can do something that has an unintended evil outcome, but argues from purely utilitarian principles.  One major flaw with Novus Ordo Watch is that they tend to subscribe to "Fifties-ism," believing that everything written before the magical year 1958 is automatically orthodox and authoritative, whereas the decay in Catholic theology was already far advanced by then.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Ladislaus on October 08, 2020, 03:58:34 PM
Quote from: Christs Servant on October 08, 2020, 03:54:08 PM
I meant during this upcoming election due to both Biden & Trump holding to deeply immoral policies, visions, and actions.
The more I read about President Trump, the more I come to agree with your view. I think, ultimately, it is better to sit this one out as a Catholic.

As I said, one can always vote, but I personally do not believe I can in good conscience vote for either Biden or Trump.  I might write in Pat Buchanan.  That would be voting.  I have no authority, of course, to bind anyone's conscience, but this is the decision I have come to by the application of Catholic moral principles.

Given the Trump administration's record funding of Planned Parenthood, that makes him responsible for murder, and the principle of double effect no longer applies.  One cannot commit even a single murder in order to prevent an infinitely greater number or murders.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: SeanJohnson on October 08, 2020, 04:02:58 PM
Plus, both Biden and Trump are vaccination apostles.

And the fact that the forthcoming COVID19 vaccines will likely be produced with abortive stem cell lines (which Vigano, Burke, Strickland, and Schneider say can never be used) adds another layer or moral murkiness to the whole thing.

Or does it?  I note the same Vigano who supports Trump, is the same Vigano who says we can never use abortive vaccines.

Can anyone work that one out?
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: 2Vermont on October 08, 2020, 04:06:29 PM
As far as I'm concerned, unless you live in a swing state, the issue is moot. 
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Matto on October 08, 2020, 04:08:37 PM
Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 08, 2020, 04:02:58 PM
And the fact that the forthcoming COVID19 vaccines will likely be produced with abortive stem cell lines (which Vigano, Burke, Strickland, and Schneider say can never be used) adds another layer or moral murkiness to the whole thing.
I have heard that some of the vaccines are from aborted fetal cells, and other vaccines change your DNA in some way. So our choice is to either cooperate in abortion or become trans-human. In that case if one had to choose either of those vaccines, which would  be worse?
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: forlorn on October 08, 2020, 04:09:10 PM
Quote from: 2Vermont on October 08, 2020, 04:06:29 PM
As far as I'm concerned, unless you live in a swing state, the issue is moot.
You never know. No one expected Michigan and Wisconsin to flip; they were most certainly not considered swing states.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Christs Servant on October 08, 2020, 04:10:18 PM
Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 08, 2020, 04:02:58 PM
Plus, both Biden and Trump are vaccination apostles.

And the fact that the forthcoming COVID19 vaccines will likely be produced with abortive stem cell lines (which Vigano, Burke, Strickland, and Schneider say can never be used) adds another layer or moral murkiness to the whole thing.

Or does it?  I note the same Vigano who supports Trump, is the same Vigano who says we can never use abortive vaccines.

Can anyone work that one out?
Maybe His Excellency Monsignor Vigano has ulterior motives?
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Matto on October 08, 2020, 04:12:43 PM
Quote from: Christs Servant on October 08, 2020, 04:10:18 PM
Maybe His Excellency Monsignor Vigano has ulterior motives?
I still find the whole Taylor Marshall thing being on Trump's team officially to be so weird. And Vigano writing love letters to Trump. So weird.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Nadir on October 08, 2020, 04:22:37 PM
Quote from: Tradman on October 08, 2020, 10:32:07 AM
It is every voter's duty to stay informed.  Information proves there is no lesser of two evils in this POTUS race.  Trump just funded Bill Gate's GAVI population control foundation to the tune of 12 Billion dollars after the WHO's top guns moved to GAVI from the WHO.  WHO and GAVI have the same agenda, but if you don't know what that is, know that Bill Gates is the founder of GAVI. The 12 Billion from Trump to Bill Gates exceeds by far money given by Obama's 600 million to WHO.  GAVI funds abortion, birth control and sterilizing vaccines under the guise of health care in third world countries, and it has Agenda 30 goals for reducing population worldwide.  So, on the US side, Trump is a saint.  Out the backdoor he's RBG.  Biden and Trump are both pro gαy, and Trump's daughter Ivanka is pushing hard for world wide vaccines for every person. Trump's son-in-law is working for Israel's interests with connections to huge sums of money through Trump. Trump and the rest of the Billionaires have increased their net worth up to 50% in the last 6 months thanks to Covid, while the money they stole was the last change in people's pockets. Anyone who thinks Trump is good, is caught up in the game of politics and banks on phantom gains, ignoring the bigger picture.  Trump is using the most advanced techniques in politics: Play your constituents like a fiddle and you'll have no opposition to what you're really up to.  If people voted their consciences for real, they could not vote for either candidate, but ought to go home and pray like never before.        
This is the truth of the matter.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: SeanJohnson on October 08, 2020, 04:25:59 PM
I could see voting for Buchanan or whoever the Constitution Party endorsed, but what would be the point in voting then?  Might as well just stay home.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: claudel on October 08, 2020, 04:26:10 PM
Quote from: Christs Servant on October 08, 2020, 04:10:18 PM

Maybe His Excellency Monsignor Vigano has ulterior motives?

That's a pretty snide thing to say in the absence of any substantiating evidence in its support. I suggest that you either offer some evidence or withdraw the offending statement. Otherwise, it won't be long till others join me in wondering whether you have ulterior motives and what they might be.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: SeanJohnson on October 08, 2020, 04:28:08 PM
Quote from: claudel on October 08, 2020, 04:26:10 PM
That's a pretty snide thing to say in the absence of any substantiating evidence in its support. I suggest that you either offer some evidence or withdraw the offending statement. Otherwise, it won't be long till others join me in wondering whether you have ulterior motives and what they might be.
THIS^^^^^
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: 2Vermont on October 08, 2020, 04:34:49 PM
Quote from: forlorn on October 08, 2020, 04:09:10 PM
You never know. No one expected Michigan and Wisconsin to flip; they were most certainly not considered swing states.
Both of those states were not historically solidly blue.  Percentages were fairly close.  Perhaps they weren't technically "swing states" but changing color wasn't out of the question.  OTOH, I live in Vermont.

The other piece to the puzzle is the number of electoral votes.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: claudel on October 08, 2020, 04:36:03 PM
Quote from: Nadir on October 08, 2020, 04:22:37 PM

This is the truth of the matter.

Yes, it's a good summation of the sorry situation we all find ourselves in. The only thing Tradman omits—or rather, that I'd add—is that Trump seems to have relinquished his thinking capacity to his son-in-law, Jared Kushner. Indeed, Kushner might as well be de facto president. Nothing that Trump has said or done in the past year has been consonant with the platform that won him the 2016 election. Together, Trump and Kushner have tossed into the trash every point of advantage that Biden and hαɾɾιs have handed them.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Christs Servant on October 08, 2020, 04:38:38 PM
Quote from: claudel on October 08, 2020, 04:26:10 PM
That's a pretty snide thing to say in the absence of any substantiating evidence in its support. I suggest that you either offer some evidence or withdraw the offending statement. Otherwise, it won't be long till others join me in wondering whether you have ulterior motives and what they might be.
You are quite defensive & hostile in response to an off hand remark in regards to a post associated with the possible political machinations that may be behind the scenes with the recent letter that His Excellency sent to President Trump. It implied nothing like what you read into it.

Also, you should always wonder about the ulterior motives of others that you don't know. No such thing as pure and innocent in the land of anonymity.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Christs Servant on October 08, 2020, 04:40:03 PM
Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 08, 2020, 04:28:08 PM
THIS^^^^^
Okay. That>>>>>>>>>>
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Tradman on October 08, 2020, 04:46:31 PM
Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 08, 2020, 04:02:58 PM
Plus, both Biden and Trump are vaccination apostles.

And the fact that the forthcoming COVID19 vaccines will likely be produced with abortive stem cell lines (which Vigano, Burke, Strickland, and Schneider say can never be used) adds another layer or moral murkiness to the whole thing.

Or does it?  I note the same Vigano who supports Trump, is the same Vigano who says we can never use abortive vaccines.

Can anyone work that one out?
Poor Vigano wants what we all want: No Biden/hαɾɾιs.  But if avoiding rule by ladies is the goal, that makes Trump the likely answer. People do not comprehend that we are entering enslavement by the ruling class either way.  Even worse, Trump is more capable of hailing the nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr than anyone because he's a business man who understands how money works, how to profit from it and is physically and mentally up to the job. That's why he's POTUS and will continue to be POTUS because we live in a freemasonic world where cash for the elite is the rule. Trump is doing an amazing job convincing Christians that waffling on principles out of desperation, hoping to stave off evil, they are doing the right thing. They are doing the opposite. They believe him because they so desperately want a worldly kingdom.  Not to be too ashamed, even Peter fell for that one.  I recently saw a website that said the name Trump is short for trumpet and I actually wondered if that wasn't some sort of sign.
When good people refuse to give a single inch, and yes, if necessary, go down with the ship for love of Truth, only then will there be a light at the end of the tunnel.  It's terrible news people won't tolerate, but things are only going to get way worse. Personally, I don't want any part in bringing it about. Good Catholics still think we have to vote, but given Biden or Trump, it is becoming obvious that we have to quit the globalist game and put some serious stock in Fatima.         
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: claudel on October 08, 2020, 04:53:23 PM
Quote from: Christs Servant on October 08, 2020, 04:38:38 PM

… the recent letter that His Excellency sent to President Trump … implied nothing like what you read into it.

Well, I grant that I'm pretty thick, especially when it comes to reading the big words in correspondence. Maybe Sean has had the wool pulled over his eyes, too. Thus, it would be a real mitzvah [ahem] if you could enlighten us as to what that devious old archbishop was actually up to. I await your analysis with bated breath.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Christs Servant on October 08, 2020, 05:00:48 PM
Quote from: claudel on October 08, 2020, 04:53:23 PM
Well, I grant that I'm pretty thick, especially when it comes to reading the big words in correspondence. Maybe Sean has had the wool pulled over his eyes, too. Thus, it would be a real mitzvah [ahem] if you could enlighten us as to what that devious old archbishop was actually up to. I await your analysis with bated breath.
🤣
You must be really popular with the ladies. You have a great personality, Mr. Rosenbaum. Perhaps you would be so kind as to give me some Yiddish lessons sometime? 
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Jaynek on October 08, 2020, 05:11:31 PM
Quote from: Ladislaus on October 08, 2020, 03:55:09 PM
This article is immediately discredited by the use of the term "lesser of two evils".  That is alien to the fundamental principles of Catholic moral theology.

It bases the opinion on the ramblings of a Modernist from the 1950s which makes no consideration regarding the principle of double effect, the only principle by which one can do something that has an unintended evil outcome, but argues from purely utilitarian principles.  One major flaw with Novus Ordo Watch is that they tend to subscribe to "Fifties-ism," believing that everything written before the magical year 1958 is automatically orthodox and authoritative, whereas the decay in Catholic theology was already far advanced by then.
It is unfortunate that it used the expression "lesser of two evils" since that is not a Catholic idea.  I thought the value of the article was the reference to and summary of Cranny's work, an overview of traditional Catholic moral theology. It was a simplified presentation for people who aren't prepared to slog through all the details of double effect and cooperation in evil.  Perhaps it was even over-simplified, but it did link to Cranny's full work for those up for the fuller treatment.

As you know, it is the traditional position that it is morally permissible to vote for unworthy candidates under certain circuмstances. This position is grounded in Catholic moral theology, not utilitarianism.

My own view is that the current situation meets the conditions in which it is permissible to vote for an unworthy candidate.  If, however, you cannot in conscience vote for Trump (Biden is clearly out of the question) then you are under no obligation to do so.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: claudel on October 08, 2020, 05:12:37 PM
Quote from: Tradman on October 08, 2020, 04:46:31 PM

… Trump is doing an amazing job convincing Christians that waffling on principles out of desperation, hoping to stave off evil, they are doing the right thing. They are doing the opposite. They believe him because they so desperately want a worldly kingdom.

I think that this one aspect of the assessment overreaches. That is to say, whether it's correct or not hardly matters, because the great mass of those who plan to vote for Trump—even those at this website!—perceive him as the only rational choice in a situation where they see just one other option: a pair of candidates who rival Hillary Clinton for sheer wickedness and surpass her for stupidity. Please note that I write the foregoing as someone who hasn't voted since the great Gingrich betrayal of 1994 forever ripped the scales from my eyes.

For better or worse, however, abstaining from voting remains an alternative that has failed to acquire critical mass. Whether it ever will is something that might soon become a moot point if the Establishment's plans for societal disruption following an apparent Trump victory go forward in the manner that the alternative media have revealed. In other words, I am telling my seventy-five-year-old bones and sinews that they will have to acquire the flexibility needed to be a doomsday prepper!
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: claudel on October 08, 2020, 05:14:15 PM
Quote from: Christs Servant on October 08, 2020, 05:00:48 PM

You must be really popular with the ladies. You have a great personality, Mr. Rosenbaum. Perhaps you would be so kind as to give me some Yiddish lessons sometime?

… still awaiting your analysis, kiddo.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: 2Vermont on October 08, 2020, 05:16:55 PM
I tend to agree with Tradman and Claudel.  Having said that, it is not a popular view among a number of Catholics.  It would be interesting to see a poll here.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Tradman on October 08, 2020, 05:18:15 PM
Quote from: claudel on October 08, 2020, 04:36:03 PM
Yes, it's a good summation of the sorry situation we all find ourselves in. The only thing Tradman omits—or rather, that I'd add—is that Trump seems to have relinquished his thinking capacity to his son-in-law, Jared Kushner. Indeed, Kushner might as well be de facto president. Nothing that Trump has said or done in the past year has been consonant with the platform that won him the 2016 election. Together, Trump and Kushner have tossed into the trash every point of advantage that Biden and hαɾɾιs have handed them.
Agreed
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: claudel on October 08, 2020, 05:19:19 PM
Quote from: Jaynek on October 08, 2020, 05:11:31 PM

It is unfortunate that it used the expression "lesser of two evils" since that is not a Catholic idea.

Pace you and Ladislaus, however, it is not an un-Catholic idea. It is a category of choice that good Catholics confront virtually every day.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Tradman on October 08, 2020, 05:38:31 PM
Quote from: claudel on October 08, 2020, 05:12:37 PM
I think that this one aspect of the assessment overreaches. That is to say, whether it's correct or not hardly matters, because the great mass of those who plan to vote for Trump—even those at this website!—perceive him as the only rational choice in a situation where they see just one other option: a pair of candidates who rival Hillary Clinton for sheer wickedness and surpass her for stupidity. Please note that I write the foregoing as someone who hasn't voted since the great Gingrich betrayal of 1994 forever ripped the scales from my eyes.

For better or worse, however, abstaining from voting remains an alternative that has failed to acquire critical mass. Whether it ever will is something that might soon become a moot point if the Establishment's plans for societal disruption following an apparent Trump victory go forward in the manner that the alternative media have revealed. In other words, I am telling my seventy-five-year-old bones and sinews that they will have to acquire the flexibility needed to be a doomsday prepper!
Doomsday prepper seems to carry such negative connotation, but I've been doing it for several months because 1. Prepping can't hurt.  2. Not prepping can hurt a lot.    
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: claudel on October 08, 2020, 05:59:05 PM
Quote from: Tradman on October 08, 2020, 05:38:31 PM

1. Prepping can't hurt. 2. Not prepping can hurt a lot.    

I hear you. Perhaps, like me, you have been taught a lesson by the ongoing covid hoax. Here we are, eight months in, and such taken-for-granted stuff as Tilex-style bathroom cleaner, hydrogen peroxide, and isopropyl alcohol remains difficult to get at less than five times their pre-hoax price—if one can even get them at all. At least toilet paper seems no longer to be vying with platinum for priceyness, but will that still be true after the election?

As it happens, I have only myself to feed, and so I don't expect to find myself writing to poche with a request for a few packages from his thirty-year supply of Velveeta.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Your Friend Colin on October 08, 2020, 06:15:33 PM
Quote from: Ladislaus on October 08, 2020, 03:55:09 PM
This article is immediately discredited by the use of the term "lesser of two evils".  That is alien to the fundamental principles of Catholic moral theology.

It bases the opinion on the ramblings of a Modernist from the 1950s which makes no consideration regarding the principle of double effect, the only principle by which one can do something that has an unintended evil outcome, but argues from purely utilitarian principles.  One major flaw with Novus Ordo Watch is that they tend to subscribe to "Fifties-ism," believing that everything written before the magical year 1958 is automatically orthodox and authoritative, whereas the decay in Catholic theology was already far advanced by then.
Do you have a citation from a Catholic source stating that the popular expression, “lesser of two evils”, is non-Catholic?

Fr. Cranny’s dissertation received the approbation of the Church. It bears the nihil obstat of Fr. Francis Connell. You’re asking us to believe you rather than Fr. Cranny, Fr. Connell and Abp O’Boyle. Frs. McHugh and Callan teach that it is permissible to vote for an unworthy candidate to prevent a greater evil. 

Fr. Cranny cites Tanqueray, Prummer, Merkelbach and numerous other theologians to prove his assertions - which presumably all bear ecclesiastical approbation. Your accusation of calling Fr. Cranny a Modernist and thus his work is ridiculous. 
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Ladislaus on October 08, 2020, 06:54:16 PM
Quote from: Jaynek on October 08, 2020, 05:11:31 PM
As you know, it is the traditional position that it is morally permissible to vote for unworthy candidates under certain circuмstances. This position is grounded in Catholic moral theology, not utilitarianism.

You see, I'm not buying that.  It's a position that is oft repeated, but I have never seen it treated rigorously from the standpoint of Catholic moral theological principles.  When someone balances degrees of good and evil, one is squarely in the utilitarian mindset.  Catholic moral theology unequivocally holds, almost as its first principle, that one can never do evil even if to prevent some greater evil, i.e. the end does not justify the means.  I have not yet seen a serious theological treatment of the issue which makes this clear.  There's only one way in which Catholics can perform an act that has an evil outcome, and that is based on the principle of double effect.  Again, I have not seen a serious and rigorous theological treatment among a Traditional Catholic theologian regarding the application of double effect to voting.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Ladislaus on October 08, 2020, 06:57:49 PM
Quote from: claudel on October 08, 2020, 05:19:19 PM
Pace you and Ladislaus, however, it is not an un-Catholic idea. It is a category of choice that good Catholics confront virtually every day.

No, claudel, it most certainly is un-Catholic.  As per my previous post, it violates what is practically the first principle of Catholic moral theology, that one cannot perform an evil act even if to prevent a greater evil, i.e. that the end does not justify the means.  This principle is what distinguishes the Catholic moral system from all others.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Clemens Maria on October 08, 2020, 07:40:26 PM
Can you give any examples of how Trump actually promoted LGBT crap?  I know he says he is the most LGBT president ever and he has waved the rainbow flag but that looks like just a lot of talk and no action.  He prevented govt paying for gender transitions.  He stopped the navy from modifying traditional military culture to accommodate gender-neutral terminology.  That's why sodomites hate him and vote Demonrat.  Planned Parenthood funding is not his fault.  He is pro-life.  He attended the pro-life rally in DC.  No other president has ever done that.  Mike Pence re-affirmed that position in the VP debate.  If PP funding increased, you can attribute that to the necessity of making deals both with Congressional Republicans and with the Demonrats.  If you don't make deals, you don't get anything done.  If you don't get anything done, you don't get re-elected.  There's only so much one man can do.  He is dependent on getting support both from Republican lawmakers as well as the general public.  If PP funding went up it is because jackasses are not voting for pro-life candidates that have a chance of winning.  Instead they want to pretend that they are above the fray and superior to the rest of us dolts who actually vote for viable candidates.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Tradman on October 08, 2020, 08:29:47 PM
Quote from: Clemens Maria on October 08, 2020, 07:40:26 PM
Can you give any examples of how Trump actually promoted LGBT crap?  I know he says he is the most LGBT president ever and he has waved the rainbow flag but that looks like just a lot of talk and no action.  He prevented govt paying for gender transitions.  He stopped the navy from modifying traditional military culture to accommodate gender-neutral terminology.  That's why sodomites hate him and vote Demonrat.  Planned Parenthood funding is not his fault.  He is pro-life.  He attended the pro-life rally in DC.  No other president has ever done that.  Mike Pence re-affirmed that position in the VP debate.  If PP funding increased, you can attribute that to the necessity of making deals both with Congressional Republicans and with the Demonrats.  If you don't make deals, you don't get anything done.  If you don't get anything done, you don't get re-elected.  There's only so much one man can do.  He is dependent on getting support both from Republican lawmakers as well as the general public.  If PP funding went up it is because jackasses are not voting for pro-life candidates that have a chance of winning.  Instead they want to pretend that they are above the fray and superior to the rest of us dolts who actually vote for viable candidates.
https://thepostmillennial.com/trump-is-objectively-the-most-pro-gαy-president-in-history/
Trump is not really pro life except in the US where his election depends on SAYING he's pro life and making sure people believe him HERE.  12 Billion dollars for Bill Gates' population control GAVI is proof that Trump is double dealing. GAVI is an abortion promoting, birth control supporting, vaccination pushing, population control entity in the name of health organization that is destroying lives over seas.  There is no excuse for Trump backing Bill Gates with billions of dollars.        
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Clemens Maria on October 08, 2020, 08:39:04 PM
Quote from: Tradman on October 08, 2020, 08:29:47 PM
https://thepostmillennial.com/trump-is-objectively-the-most-pro-gαy-president-in-history/
Trump is not really pro life except in the US where his election depends on SAYING he's pro life and making sure people believe him HERE.  12 Billion dollars for Bill Gates' population control GAVI is proof that Trump is double dealing. GAVI is an abortion promoting, birth control supporting, vaccination pushing, population control entity in the name of health organization that is destroying lives over seas.  There is no excuse for Trump backing Bill Gates with billions of dollars.        
So the US govt never funded GAVI before Trump was elected in 2016?  And Trump personally insisted that funding be added for GAVI or he wouldn't sign the bill?  I don't think you understand how the US political process works.  Trump doesn't get to sculpt the budget into his own likeness and image.  He has to work with Congress and the Senate.  For the last two years Congress was controlled by the Demonrats.  So his power to dictate the budget is limited.  It is a compromise.  If he doesn't compromise then he gets blamed for holding up the budget.  And then more Demonrats get elected.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Tradman on October 08, 2020, 08:46:37 PM
https://www.thelastamericanvagabond.com/vaccine-bait-switch-millions-pulled-from-who-trump-gives-billions-gates-founded-gavi/

Make no mistake, the vaccination push by GAVI works in the name of "health" which actually translates in third world countries to abortion on demand and forced birth control. Trump counts on rallies and speeches and sound bites, saying he's pro life, takes great pains to show he stands against abortion, yet he funnels money to destroy life overseas where no one is watching.  And guess what? The scam is working. Not one single traditional Catholic group has fully exposed this and all of them support Trump because at least in the US, Trump is pro life and Biden is such a liberal pile of crap, that no one will bat an eye to what Trump is really up to.  The real enemy, Satan, is way ahead of us this time, and in order to stop the bleeding that will bring devastation to our country, we really only need to quit making excuses for the likes of Trump and those elite who are more clever than ever at making the world a better place for demonic worship.      
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Clemens Maria on October 08, 2020, 08:52:20 PM
Anyone who opposes Trump is in my mind immediately suspect of being a subversive cultural marxist.  He is the most anti-marxist president ever.  That's why the left hates him so much they have fallen into Trump Derangement Syndrome.  The left has become a coalition of feminists, sodomites, blacks, and immigrants who use identity politics and victim status to co-opt our traditional western values (Christendom).  Their goal is to seize control of all of our institutions and use them to advance their anti-christian (anti-Catholic really) agenda.  If you think funding for GAVI is bad now, just let Joe Biden get elected and see how much funding goes to GAVI then.  Let's see what happens when the Demonrats control both houses and the president.  Do you remember during Obama's terms how the FBI was using the Southern Poverty Law Center's hate list to classify traditional Catholics as a hate group?  If the Demonrats control everything, your chapel (if you are traditional Catholic, which I wonder about) will be a hate group center needing to be closed down by the govt authorities.  You'll be lucky if they don't throw you in jail.  On the upside, you will have plenty of time to wring your hands over GAVI funding.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Clemens Maria on October 08, 2020, 08:57:13 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if the Demonrats hired people to infiltrate Catholic sites to demoralize them and encourage them to not vote or to write in a loser candidate who has no chance of winning.  It really isn't going to cost them that much.  George Soros has billions to spend on this type of infiltration and it fits right in with the cultural marxist strategy.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Tradman on October 08, 2020, 08:59:52 PM
Quote from: Clemens Maria on October 08, 2020, 08:39:04 PM
So the US govt never funded GAVI before Trump was elected in 2016?  And Trump personally insisted that funding be added for GAVI or he wouldn't sign the bill?  I don't think you understand how the US political process works.  Trump doesn't get to sculpt the budget into his own likeness and image.  He has to work with Congress and the Senate.  For the last two years Congress was controlled by the Demonrats.  So his power to dictate the budget is limited.  It is a compromise.  If he doesn't compromise then he gets blamed for holding up the budget.  And then more Demonrats get elected.
Obama funded the աօʀʟd ɦɛaʟtɦ օʀɢaռiʐatɨօռ promoting abortion and the population control agenda to the tune of 500 million dollars a year all in the name of health.  Suddenly, Trump says he doesn't support WHO, but sends WAY more money to GAVI.  GAVI is Bill Gates' plan to reduce world population worldwide.  Why do we even have to wonder what they are up to?    
From their website (link below): Since 2007 GAVI has been funding new Health System Strengthening (HSS) programs that encourage and enable countries to identify infrastructure and resource weaknesses that are barriers to the achievement of immunisation and other public health goals. They ensure that trained professionals are given the tools they need to give proper care to those who need it the most.

https://www.who.int/workforcealliance/about/en/

The GAVI "alliance" is an octopus of companies that go way beyond vaccines to form a conglomeration of population control advocates in bed with the world banks.  The US is funding abortion through Trump and destroying lives overseas.  Overseas for now.  

     
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Tradman on October 08, 2020, 09:05:30 PM
Quote from: Clemens Maria on October 08, 2020, 08:52:20 PM
Anyone who opposes Trump is in my mind immediately suspect of being a subversive cultural marxist.  He is the most anti-marxist president ever.  That's why the left hates him so much they have fallen into Trump Derangement Syndrome.  The left has become a coalition of feminists, sodomites, blacks, and immigrants who use identity politics and victim status to co-opt our traditional western values (Christendom).  Their goal is to seize control of all of our institutions and use them to advance their anti-christian (anti-Catholic really) agenda.  If you think funding for GAVI is bad now, just let Joe Biden get elected and see how much funding goes to GAVI then.  Let's see what happens when the Demonrats control both houses and the president.  Do you remember during Obama's terms how the FBI was using the Southern Poverty Law Center's hate list to classify traditional Catholics as a hate group?  If the Demonrats control everything, your chapel (if you are traditional Catholic, which I wonder about) will be a hate group center needing to be closed down by the govt authorities.  You'll be lucky if they don't throw you in jail.  On the upside, you will have plenty of time to wring your hands over GAVI funding.
Sorry, this isn't about Democrats and Republicans, but about good vs. evil. Trumps activities prove he is not what you think.  He plays his cards well, and has fooled many people, but simple investigation of what is really going on will prove that this is a coup to destroy the country, make slaves of the people and bring population control and the NWO to the masses.  I'm fighting cultural Marxism with everything I've got.  Sadly, Trump is the enemy.   
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Clemens Maria on October 08, 2020, 09:08:37 PM
Tradman, I guess you would prefer that funding go to the China-controlled WHO instead of the US-controlled GAVI?  Who's side are you on?  I agree with you that vaccines are generally evil, but at least Trump is intent on bringing things under control of the US govt.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Clemens Maria on October 08, 2020, 09:21:13 PM
I'm sure there are many CIA assets in GAVI.  So that's how we control it.  Obviously, China controls the WHO.  Gates probably is being pushed out.  Even mainstream media is starting to cast Gates in a negative light.  So his influence will be waning.  If you want to assert that the US shouldn't be messing around with international health organizations, I would agree with that.  But that's not going to happen.  So it's a choice between a US-controlled org and a China-controlled org.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Tradman on October 08, 2020, 09:23:20 PM
Quote from: Clemens Maria on October 08, 2020, 09:08:37 PM
Tradman, I guess you would prefer that funding go to the China-controlled WHO instead of the US-controlled GAVI?  Who's side are you on?  I agree with you that vaccines are generally evil, but at least Trump is intent on bringing things under control of the US govt.
No, I don't want China or anyone to promote vaccines or birth control or abortion no matter who they are. Yet, the US is doing all those things with Trump's help.  This isn't so much about vaccines, but about Bill Gates hiding a bigger agenda under the guise of vaccines supposedly to fight Covid, when in reality, he's raking in BILLIONS from the US gov to promote population control and Trump is helping him. You can suggest what you want about me, but to avoid the obvious conclusion of what is happening merely proves that you haven't done your research.   
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Tradman on October 08, 2020, 09:27:10 PM
Quote from: Clemens Maria on October 08, 2020, 09:21:13 PM
I'm sure there are many CIA assets in GAVI.  So that's how we control it.  Obviously, China controls the WHO.  Gates probably is being pushed out.  Even mainstream media is starting to cast Gates in a negative light.  So his influence will be waning.  If you want to assert that the US shouldn't be messing around with international health organizations, I would agree with that.  But that's not going to happen.  So it's a choice between a US-controlled org and a China-controlled org.
The former head of WHO left to help GAVI Alliance and has become the head of the "World Bank" and is working with GAVI in third world countries.  Does that set off any alarms for you?  I don't want Trump to be a bad guy.  But sadly, that is what is happening. 
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Tradman on October 08, 2020, 09:29:01 PM
https://www.gavi.org/our-alliance/governance

Does this help to see what is going on?  I have more, but it will take pages to post it all.  
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Clemens Maria on October 08, 2020, 09:31:04 PM
Gates is incompetent.  He got tossed out of Microsoft and now it is only a matter of time before he gets tossed out of his foundation.  He is a nerd/geek with social/mental problems and maybe a pervert too.  He's never going to be a Soros.  So if you have to choose between GAVI and WHO, choose GAVI.  At least the US has control of it. 
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Tradman on October 08, 2020, 09:37:09 PM
Quote from: Clemens Maria on October 08, 2020, 09:31:04 PM
Gates is incompetent.  He got tossed out of Microsoft and now it is only a matter of time before he gets tossed out of his foundation.  He is a nerd/geek with social/mental problems and maybe a pervert too.  He's never going to be a Soros.  So if you have to choose between GAVI and WHO, choose GAVI.  At least the US has control of it.
GAVI IS WHO, just a different acronym.  Just like the US was behind 9/11, the same power brokers are destroying our country for monetary gain and control. All of these health organizations are funded to the gills by the US and all of them are about population control and abortion.  Gates, Soros, China, Trump, there are no good guys.        
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Clemens Maria on October 08, 2020, 09:37:25 PM
To try to cast Trump as a globalist is a joke.  He pulled out of the Paris Climate Accord as soon as he got in.  Globalists hate him.  Everything he does as far as foreign policy is concerned is designed to give the US and Israel more control.  He's never going to willingly give money to China or Russian-controlled orgs.

Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Clemens Maria on October 08, 2020, 09:39:15 PM
Trump is a good guy.  You should consider that many on the left share your exact sentiments.  That should give you pause.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Nadir on October 08, 2020, 09:43:04 PM
Quote from: Clemens Maria on October 08, 2020, 09:31:04 PM
  So if you have to choose between GAVI and WHO, choose GAVI.  At least the US has control of it.
If I were a US citizen, I would be ashamed to say that the US has control over it.
Quote
The Gavi Alliance has ... public charity status in the United States.
Wow! public "charity" status!!!
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Clemens Maria on October 08, 2020, 09:50:37 PM
Even more shameful is the fact that the CDC and FDA and Fauci are taking orders from the China-controlled WHO.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Tradman on October 08, 2020, 09:53:58 PM
Quote from: Clemens Maria on October 08, 2020, 09:39:15 PM
Trump is a good guy.  You should consider that many on the left share your exact sentiments.  That should give you pause.
Satan is way more sophisticated in destroying the world than just resting on right/left politics.  I despise everything the left is about, but I cannot deny what is happening with the traitors on the right.  I appreciate that you stand for, truth, life, and the American way and I hope Trump is what he appears to be on the surface.  In any event, God has good things in store for those who love Him and that's really all we should hope to do.       
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Nadir on October 08, 2020, 09:55:41 PM
Quote from: Clemens Maria on October 08, 2020, 09:37:25 PM
Everything Trump does as far as foreign policy is concerned is designed to give the US and Israel more control.  
Ah! the picture is coming clearer. I see men as trees walking. 
.
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: claudel on October 08, 2020, 10:52:58 PM
Quote from: Clemens Maria on October 08, 2020, 08:52:20 PM

Anyone who opposes Trump is in my mind immediately suspect of being a subversive cultural marxist.  He is the most anti-marxist president ever.

First a lazy newbie moron calls me a Jew, and now Clemens Maria informs me I'm a subversive cultural Marxist. Live and learn.

Quote from: Clemens Maria on October 08, 2020, 08:52:20 PM

The left has become a coalition of feminists, sodomites, blacks, and immigrants who use identity politics and victim status to co-opt our traditional western values (Christendom). Their goal is to seize control of all of our institutions and use them to advance their anti-christian (anti-Catholic really) agenda.

Our traditional Western values have been in a big pile on a public landfill site since the late sixties. Haven't you been paying attention? The cleanout actually began in the thirties, but everyone was too busy loving FDR and hating Hitler to notice what was happening. As for your coalition of malefactors, you need to realize that none of them would amount to a hill of beans if the Jews weren't pulling their strings and funding their parties and their vices on a full-time basis. Furthermore, it is the Jews and the Jews alone who control all of "our" (= their) institutions. Is it possible that you fail to see that?

The only discernible difference between poor, misunderstood Trump and the evil "Demonrats," as you call them, is merely that they are the puppets of two different Jєωιѕн factions whose primary disagreement concerns whether constant war or a mix of war and economic subterfuge is better for the Jews of the Diaspora and for their storefront state, Israel. The two factions are in total agreement, however, about the need for unlimited Muslim and Third World immigration to the West and in their all-consuming hatred for the Cross and those who follow It.

In some ways the most disheartening thing is that all the Trump groupies here at CathInfo roll out the excuse that Trump's hands are tied, that he has no choice but to compromise, whenever they are confronted with the fact that he has kept none of his campaign promises and done nothing to stem legal and illegal immigration or control antifa and black criminality. They ignore the plain fact that Clinton, Bush II, and Obama ran this country for twenty-four years by means of literally hundreds of executive orders—and all with the Congress, whether run by Republicans or Democrats, knowing precisely what they were doing! The American people have been living as subjects of an executive dictatorship longer than half of this forum's membership has been alive. Trump could easily have acted with the same impunity as his predecessors, but he's been too bloody lazy even to learn what his Cabinet appointees think or what their departments are empowered to do without ever needing to consult him. And please don't tell me that his deeply held principles are what have kept him from cleaning out the stables for the past four years!
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: PAT317 on October 08, 2020, 11:18:34 PM
Quote from: claudel on October 08, 2020, 05:59:05 PM
As it happens, I have only myself to feed, and so I don't expect to find myself writing to poche with a request for a few packages from his thirty-year supply of Velveeta.
:laugh1:
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Clemens Maria on October 09, 2020, 07:30:15 PM
Wisconsin Pro-Life Group Endorses President Trump: “He Has a Proven Track Record of Defending Life”
Steven Ertelt   Jun 12, 2020   |   4:46PM    Madison, WI


A Wisconsin pro-life organization has issued its endorsement for President Donald Trump’s re-election bid, saying he has been dedicated to advancing pro-life principles as president. Wisconsin Right to Life’s Political Action Committee has endorsed President Trump for his 2020 re-election bid.

“President Trump is one of the most pro-life presidents in the history of our country,” shares Kristen Nupson, PAC director of Wisconsin Right to Life.
President Trump, the first sitting president in United States history to attend and address the annual March for Life in person, has received wide support from pro-life groups across the county.
Nupson told LifeNews.com that “We are proud to support President Trump as the only viable candidate with a proven track record of defending the right to life. Even more importantly than his remarks at his State of the Union Addresses or the March for Life, Donald Trump has demonstrated through action his support of the unborn during his time in office. His administration has consistently backed pro-life policy and worked to build a culture of life both here in the nation and internationally.”
“We are confident President Trump will continue to advocate for the unborn and we are proud to endorse him as he seeks re-election,” states Nupson.
As President, Donald Trump has:
•Pledged to veto any legislation that weakens pro-life policy
•Vowed to defend the right to life
•Stated his opposition to any laws or policies that would encourage the destruction of human life at any stage
•Called on Congress to pass legislation to prohibit late-term abortion
•Issued regulations to ensure Title X funding does not benefit facilities that provide or refer for abortions
•Committed to defund abortion providers
Nupson said Trump’s pro-life record contrasts with that of Joe Biden, who she explained “openly supports abortion on demand as a constitutional right.”
 (https://secure.campaigner.com/CSB/Public/Form.aspx?fid=1515255)
In one of his first acts as president, Trump reinstated and expanded the Mexico City Policy (https://www.lifenews.com/2017/01/23/president-donald-trump-signs-executive-order-to-defund-international-planned-parenthood/), which prohibits taxpayer funding to groups that promote or provide abortions overseas. The change defunded Planned Parenthood’s international arm (https://www.lifenews.com/2018/06/06/president-trumps-decision-to-defund-international-planned-parenthood-cost-it-100-million/) of about $100 million in U.S. tax dollars.
Trump has repeatedly called out the Democratic Party’s extreme position on abortion. During his State of the Union address Trump slammed the governors of New York and Virginia for promoting abortion up to birth and infanticide (https://www.lifenews.com/2019/02/05/trump-slams-abortion-infanticide-in-sotu-all-children-born-and-unborn-made-in-the-image-of-god/). He also called for Congress to pass a ban on late-term abortions on babies who are capable of feeling pain.
Trump and his administration have made a number of changes to protect those who morally object to abortions, expanding conscience protections (https://www.lifenews.com/2019/04/18/trump-admin-steps-up-defense-of-pro-life-doctors-nurses-who-dont-want-to-be-involved-in-abortion/) for medical workers who believe it is wrong to kill an unborn baby and increasing religious exemptions for Obamacare (https://www.lifenews.com/2018/10/17/new-video-highlights-president-trumps-top-10-pro-life-accomplishments/).
His administration also intervened to stop the United Nations from supporting abortion in a resolution about sɛҳuąƖ violence. In 2018, under his leadership, the State Department removed references (https://www.lifenews.com/2018/02/22/trump-admin-removes-obamas-abortion-advocacy-from-key-report-on-human-rights/) to the so-called “right” to abort an unborn baby from a global human rights report as well.
During his presidency, the administration also finalized a new Title X rule (https://www.lifenews.com/2019/02/22/president-donald-trump-defunds-planned-parenthood-will-cut-almost-60-million-in-taxpayer-funding-2/) that requires health care entities to completely separate abortion from their taxpayer-funded services. Planned Parenthood, which already has said it will not comply (https://www.lifenews.com/2019/02/22/planned-parenthood-slams-president-trump-for-cutting-its-tax-funding-he-hates-women-and-minorities/), could lose about $60 million annually through the policy change. However, the abortion group is suing to block the cuts.
Trump has appointed dozens of conservative judges to federal courts as well, including two to the U.S. Supreme Court and he has repeatedly told the UN that he will not promote abortion as a human right.


SOURCE: https://www.lifenews.com/2020/06/12/wisconsin-pro-life-group-endorses-president-trump-he-has-a-proven-track-record-of-defending-life/
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Clemens Maria on October 09, 2020, 07:43:04 PM
Maybe the best way to get an idea of Trump's pro-family record is to see what the sodomites think of him.  So here is their analysis:


Trump’s record on LGBTQ rights has been vile from the moment he took office. We kept a list.
Trump is still busy pushing his anti-LGBTQ agenda. We're still busy tracking it.
By Juwan J. Holmes (https://www.lgbtqnation.com/author/juwanholmes/) Wednesday, September 9, 2020
(https://lgbtqnation-assets.imgix.net/2019/05/trump-flag-burning162.jpeg?w=790&h=530&fit=crop&auto=format&auto=compress&crop=faces)Photo: Graham Gremore

From the moment he stepped into the White House, President Donald Trump’s record on LGBTQ rights has continued to get worse and worse.
It has now been over 3 years, and despite administration officials’ claims (https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2020/09/gαy-trump-official-throws-tantrum-asked-ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity-initiative/) that he is a “pro-LGBTQ” president, the attacks from the White House are still coming. From erasing any mentions of LGBTQ rights from federal websites minutes after his inauguration (https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2017/01/new-trump-white-house-website-absent-mention-lgbt-rights-climate-change/) to supporting a school’s right to fire a gαy teacher (https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2020/09/trump-administration-defends-school-mike-pences-home-state-fired-gαy-teacher/), Trump’s LGBTQ rights record couldn’t be more heinous.

Thankfully, our friends at GLAAD run the Trump Accountability Project (https://www.glaad.org/tap/donald-trump), and they have kept a tally of the nonstop barrage on the community’s civil rights. From erasing our issues to allowing healthcare providers to discriminate against LGBTQ people, it’s all on the list.
And, of course, we’ve been here reporting it all for you. We’ll continue to monitor the situation with our partners at GLAAD until Trump finally leaves office – and update this list as necessary.

A Complete List of the Trump Administration’s Record on LGBTQ Rights
2020
2019


2018
2017
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Clemens Maria on October 09, 2020, 08:02:56 PM
 Trump’s Immigration Record
By Mark Krikorian (https://www.nationalreview.com/author/mark-krikorian/)
October 1, 2020 10:22 AM
(https://i1.wp.com/www.nationalreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/trump-wall-ariz-2020.jpg?fit=800%2C450&ssl=1) President Donald Trump tours a section of recently built border wall in San Luis, Ariz., June 23, 2020.  Mexico hasn’t paid for a wall, but there has been progress
 
It’s beginning to look like Mexico isn’t going to be paying for the wall after all.
But it turns out that our neighbor to the south did something far more important: The Trump administration persuaded Mexico to work with us to reduce the number of bogus asylum claims by Central Americans, claims that were threatening to make the border fence irrelevant.
 
And that’s just one of the immigration accomplishments the administration can point to. There have been plenty of stumbles, of course, and it won’t be clear for some time whether the Trump presidency will represent a net plus or minus in the long run for the cause of controlling immigration. But a look back at the past four years shows quite a few salutary changes, usually made in the face of implacable, even maniacal, opposition.
First, the minus side of the ledger. Many of the administration’s immigration mistakes have been a result of the president’s own weaknesses: impulsiveness, lack of attention to detail, holding a grudge. For instance, the first major initiative, the ban on travelers from seven terror-prone nations (Syria, Libya, Iran, Yemen, Somalia, North Korea, and Venezuela), was perfectly defensible. But the failure to prepare properly, by laying out a detailed legal defense and by coordinating with all those who’d be involved, resulted in a PR and administrative mess.
Likewise with the “zero tolerance” policy at the southern border, where illegal aliens bringing children with them as a stratagem to gain release into the U.S. were instead prosecuted for the federal crime of infiltrating the border. The resulting child-separation fiasco was amplified and distorted by a hostile media, but the original disarray could have been avoided with less haste and more planning.
 
 
 

Personnel mistakes have similarly been shaped by the president’s temperament. As he left office, Harry Truman said of his successor, “He’ll sit right here and he’ll say, Do this, do that! And nothing will happen. Poor Ike — it won’t be a bit like the Army. He’ll find it very frustrating.” Truman was wrong about the 34th president but not the 45th. Staffing would have been a problem for any outsider administration lacking a government-in-waiting of think-tankers, lobbyists, and consultants, but Trump’s penchant for Apprentice-style management has created a situation where the top personnel in charge of immigration at the Department of Homeland Security, including the secretary himself, are all “acting” managers, not having been confirmed by the Senate.
And finally, some of the administration’s shortcomings have been the result of bad choices: the president’s firing of Attorney General Jeff Sessions, the only high official with a clear vision for dealing with immigration; the nine-month delay in rescinding Obama’s illegal DACA work-permit program, which telegraphed hesitancy and weakness; the president’s curious ambivalence about E-Verify; and the decision to continue the made-up Optional Practical Training program, wherein some 200,000 foreign white-collar workers masquerade as students and are therefore not counted as participating in numerically capped, legitimate guest-worker programs, and are exempted (along with their employers) from paying payroll taxes. (The Optional Practical Training program has no basis in statute and is being challenged in court.)
 
But there is much on the plus side of the Trump administration’s immigration policy. Whoever is paying for the wall, it is, in fact, getting built. The criticisms of some on the right that the Border Patrol is merely replacing existing barriers is misplaced: A 30-foot bollard fence where there used to be a four-foot vehicle barrier that your grandma could duck under (something I’ve done numerous times) is new construction. The importance of the new walls was underlined by the sight of busloads of Central Americans of all ages clambering over and under the low vehicle barriers, after having been delivered to their Mexican side by smugglers, and then turning themselves in to lodge meritless asylum claims.
 

As mentioned above, getting Mexico’s help in regaining a modicuм of control over asylum has been another big win for the administration — one that I did not think possible. Central Americans who sneak across the border, or walk up to a border crossing, and regurgitate the asylum verbiage their smugglers taught them are no longer released into the U.S. or even necessarily detained. Instead, Mexico has agreed to let us return them across the border to await their hearing dates in Mexican border towns, eliminating much of the incentive to file such claims in the first place.
 
Refugee resettlement is another Trump win. Resettlement, which began as a cause in the wake of the communist takeover of Indochina, has turned into a racket, with State Department contractors such as World Relief and Catholic Charities being paid by the head to find apartments for refugees, sign them up for welfare, and move on to the next batch to resettle. The administration has broken the rice bowl of the refugee industry by cutting the overall number admitted while at the same time increasing the share of those who genuinely warrant resettlement and giving state and local governments more say-so in the process, reflecting the intent of the 1980 Refugee Act.

 

Immigrant self-sufficiency is another area where the Trump administration has brought practice into line with legislative intent. The oldest principle of American immigration policy, dating to colonial times, is that only newcomers who can support themselves should be admitted. This was incorporated into federal law nearly a century and a half ago, when the U.S. barred the admission of any foreigner likely at any time to become a “public charge.” The requirement was subsequently reiterated and tightened, most recently and notably in 1996, with the passage of the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act and the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act. 

But the Clinton administration, in writing the regulations based on those 1996 laws, deliberately subverted their intent by counting only cash benefits when calculating how much the U.S. provided to new immigrants. So, for the past 20 years, a prospective immigrant (while here in some nonimmigrant status) could have received, or could have been likely to receive in the future, food stamps, housing subsidies, Medicaid, and free school lunch and still be considered self-sufficient. The Trump administration has helped to rectify this absurd situation by issuing a new detailed rule expanding the kinds of welfare programs, and the amount of their use, that would lead to a prospective immigrant’s rejection as a likely public charge.
American workers have also benefited from the administration’s immigration moves, though not nearly as much as one might have expected, given the amount of pro-worker rhetoric during the 2016 campaign. We’ve seen an increase in worksite enforcement against illegal workers as well as their employers, though since enforcement had dropped to zero under Obama, there was nowhere to go but up. Most encouraging were the indictments earlier this year of managers at some of the chicken plants raided last year in Mississippi; they were charged with a variety of crimes, including wire fraud, identity theft, and harboring illegal aliens. More of that is vital.

White-collar workers have also made some gains thanks to Trump-administration actions. In 2016, Disney’s former IT staffers who had been replaced by foreign-visa workers (and been required to train them before leaving) campaigned with Trump in Florida on the strength of his commitment to protect American workers. Once in office, the administration took a variety of steps to tighten up the lax issuance and oversight of, especially, H-1B visas, used mainly by tech firms. Most dramatically, earlier this year, the plight of the IT staff at the Tennessee Valley Authority came to the president’s attention. Like those at Disney and literally hundreds of other firms, the TVA’s computer staff was being fired and replaced by foreign workers with H-1Bs. The president called in TVA worker representatives, fired the chairman of the board (TVA is a government corporation), and told the board to roll back the staff firings. Only if Trump is reelected will we know whether this was a one-off campaign stunt or a genuine long-term commitment.
 
We’ve seen other positive moves as well under Trump: steps to limit birth tourism (pregnant foreigners’ traveling to the U.S. to give birth here and thereby obtain American citizenship for the child); visa sanctions against so-called recalcitrant countries that refuse to accept their own citizens back when we try to deport them; and the refusal to sign two U.N. “global compacts” designed to gradually wrest control over immigration and refugee policy away from national governments.
3   (https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2020/10/19/trumps-immigration-record/#)
It’s not quite that we’re tired of winning on immigration and begging the president, “Please, it’s too much winning!” There’s much left to do, and even the initiatives already underway have been fought at every step by a lawless “resistance” judiciary that, especially at the district-court level, has dispensed with all pretense of judicial impartiality.
But even when the Trump administration has overcome the obstruction of the courts, all these positive moves come with an asterisk. You’ll notice that one important word has yet to appear in this article: “Congress.” All the changes undertaken by this administration, as with the prior two, are the result of executive actions of various kinds. Such measures are much easier for a subsequent administration to reverse than are changes in the underlying laws. Unfortunately, our national legislature seems to have given up on legislating, becoming, in Gibbon’s words about Rome’s impotent senate, “a venerable but useless monument of antiquity on the Capitoline hill.” Until that changes, immigration policy is likely to oscillate every four or eight years.

SOURCE: https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2020/10/19/trumps-immigration-record/
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: Clemens Maria on October 09, 2020, 08:08:56 PM
You could multiply similar reports of Trump's accomplishments.  The basic idea is that he did in fact follow through on his campaign promises in 2016.  He did work on building the wall although it is not done yet.  He is prolife.  He is anti-sodomy.  That explains why the left would dearly like to get rid of him, preferably with violence.  So he is a good guy and he is as good a candidate for traditional Catholics as we have ever had in this country.

This brings tears to my eyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJYRBT2vTJg
Title: Re: Is it Morally Permissible To Vote During The Upcoming Election?
Post by: 2Vermont on October 10, 2020, 11:20:56 AM
Quote from: Your Friend Colin on October 08, 2020, 06:15:33 PM
Do you have a citation from a Catholic source stating that the popular expression, “lesser of two evils”, is non-Catholic?

Fr. Cranny’s dissertation received the approbation of the Church. It bears the nihil obstat of Fr. Francis Connell. You’re asking us to believe you rather than Fr. Cranny, Fr. Connell and Abp O’Boyle. Frs. McHugh and Callan teach that it is permissible to vote for an unworthy candidate to prevent a greater evil.

Fr. Cranny cites Tanqueray, Prummer, Merkelbach and numerous other theologians to prove his assertions - which presumably all bear ecclesiastical approbation. Your accusation of calling Fr. Cranny a Modernist and thus his work is ridiculous.
Yes, there is no reason to question Fr Cranny.  Having said that, I have seen some folks interpret his teaching to conclude that if someone does not vote in this election, then they are sinning.