Author Topic: Bin Laden Dead (Read 19444 times)

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #135 on:** June 01, 2011, 02:57:30 PM »

Quote from: Vandaler

Quote from: gladius_veritatis
Has anyone seen a shred of actual evidence that BO's story is true?

The resignation of ISI chief, Lt. Gen. Ahmed Pasha after an 11 hour session in Pakistan's parliament (that was partially televised in Pakistan) should be good enough no ?

Uh, no. Are you serious?

This proves nothing, Van. Do you possess a reliable transcript from the session?

Vandaler · « **Reply #136 on:** June 01, 2011, 06:30:41 PM »

No complete transcript are available to my knowledge, but what follows proves without a doubt that Pakistan is peeved at seeing their sovereignty violated by the U.S. in the course of the attack in Abbottabad.

The order of the day of the parliament to discuss the matter...

The official resolutions that came out of this meeting.

Highlights:

The Senate of Pakistan and the National Assembly, in a Joint Session held on 13-14 May 2011, considered the situation arising from the unilateral US forces action in Abbottabad on 2 May 2011.

After an in-depth discussion, including presentations made on the relevant issues by the Director General, Inter-Services Intelligence, Director General (Military Operations) and Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Operations), the Joint Session of Parliament resolved as under:

Condemned the US unilateral action in Abbottabad, which constitutes a violation of Pakistan's sovereignty;

Strongly asserted that unilateral actions, such as those conducted by the US forces in Abbottabad, as well as the continued drone attacks on the territory of Pakistan, are not only unacceptable but also constitute violation of the principles of the Charter of the United Nations, international law and humanitarian norms and such drone attacks must be stopped forthwith, failing which the Government will be constrained to consider taking necessary steps including withdrawal of transit facility allowed to NATO/ISAF forces.

____________

No where in the resolutions is there any expression of doubts as to the objective and result from the Operation.

This is all taken from the Pakistani Governement Official web site.

My point is, if the Pakistani government is bent out of shape over something that clearly happened according to them, your in an extremely poor position to contradict them.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #137 on:** June 02, 2011, 09:26:01 AM »

What does that item PROVE happened, Van?

The US conducted a raid in Pakistan; nothing more.

IMO, there is still a total of ZERO pieces of solid evidence that OBL was still alive, was living in that compound, was shot by SEALs, dumped at sea, etc.

I am NOT saying I can PROVE he died more than nine years ago. However, it has NOT been PROVED that he died in this recent raid.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #138 on:** June 02, 2011, 09:29:36 AM »

Quote from: Vandaler

Pakistan is peeved at seeing their sovereignty violated by the U.S. in the course of the attack in Abbottabad.

They are pissed that we keep killing their civilians, too, but that does not seem to change our insane policies or lessen the drone activity.

Calling this proof of the story of OBL's death is a stretch (to put it kindly).

Vandaler · « **Reply #139 on:** June 02, 2011, 01:02:14 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

They are pissed that we keep killing their civilians, too, but that does not seem to change our insane policies or lessen the drone activity.

Red herring

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Calling this proof of the story of OBL's death is a stretch (to put it kindly).

I'm not calling it proof, in the way you mean it. I mean it rather as a reasonable basis to believe. I'm glad I finally got you to agree that there was indeed a military operation in the compound in Abbottabad in the night of May 2nd by US forces. I guess your position now it that an operation occurred, but something else happened as opposed to what we've been told.

For the record, the proof (not perfect but beyond any reasonable doubt) is the DNA match. You don't accept that, because you haven't seen it, even though you (or I) don't have the expertise to qualify such pieces of data.

Vandaler · « **Reply #140 on:** June 02, 2011, 01:28:13 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

What does that item PROVE happened, Van?

The US conducted a raid in Pakistan; nothing more.

I'll double down since you seem to hold that Pakistan officials are honest brokers when they say something in parliament.

Here in this video (upper right), the prime minister himself calling the fact that OBL was right under their nose all this time, an "intelligence failure". In other words, they acknowledge that he was there even though it's embarrassing to them.

And again, if they acknowledge it, it means that they have accepted the proof they have seen (which is likely much more then we have) and thus that it puts you, Gladius and all other naysayers with no access to special information in an extremely poor position to contradict them.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #141 on:** June 06, 2011, 07:10:49 AM »

Quote from: Vandaler

I'm glad I finally got you to agree that there was indeed a military operation in the compound in Abbottabad in the night of May 2nd by US forces.

Did I ever deny it? No. You did not finally get me to agree with anything, Van.

Quote

I guess your position now it that an operation occurred, but something else happened as opposed to what we've been told.

When did I say, "Nothing happened that night. There were no US troops in the area, etc."? You are clearly making more out of my denial of the official story than is reasonable or just.

Quote

For the record, the proof (not perfect but beyond any reasonable doubt) is the DNA match.

For the record, DNA cannot even be tested and matched within the amount of time we supposedly had the body. Further, DNA would prove some dead guy was OBL, and, if he had already died (in 2001, say), could easily be obtained at any time during the last nine years.

There is no proof, which is why we will never be shown the various pieces of supposed evidence.

Vandaler · « **Reply #142 on:** June 06, 2011, 08:42:21 AM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

There is no proof, which is why we will never be shown the various pieces of supposed evidence.

Vandaler · « **Reply #143 on:** June 06, 2011, 11:26:39 AM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

When did I say, "Nothing happened that night. There were no US troops in the area, etc."? You are clearly making more out of my denial of the official story than is reasonable or just.

You're right, I misread previous posts. Sorry about that.

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

For the record, DNA cannot even be tested and matched within the amount of time we supposedly had the body.

Not so.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=did-rapid-dna-analysis-verify-osama-2011-05-04

I'm in fact surprised you would come up with such a canard since if it were true, it would be the kind of "gotcha" that is without appeal and it would be claimed by all the worlds government, and all the scientific authorities unanimously. This is a matter where amateur sleuthing and blogger guesswork is worthless. You probably know that, but fail to apply the same laser sharp evidence requirement to your own arguments then you require from others.

Quote

Further, DNA would prove some dead guy was OBL, and, if he had already died (in 2001, say), could easily be obtained at any time during the last nine years. There is no proof, which is why we will never be shown the various pieces of supposed evidence.

Intuitively, you know that if OBL was indeed killed on May 1st, in a hasty military operation, in a compound in which he lived and hardly ever left these past many years, that the entire place would be a treasure trove of ADN in the form of blood, hair, clothes, residue, toothbrush... for Pakistani's to challenge the ADN match if they needed to.

So I say again, since Pakistan authorities accept that OBL was killed as claimed while sitting on the mountain of evidence, then, you are placing yourself in an impossible position to argue from.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #144 on:** June 06, 2011, 11:39:03 AM »

Quote from: Vandaler

You're right, I misread previous posts. Sorry about that.

No worries, amigo :)

Quote

So I say again, since Pakistan authorities accept that OBL was killed as claimed while sitting on the mountain of evidence, then, you are placing yourself in an impossible position to argue from.

At the end of the day, I am not too concerned about what Paki 'authorities' do or do not accept as true, nor do I believe they are 'sitting on a mountain of evidence.' Maybe they are; maybe they are not. If so, and they want to world to believe it, all they have to do is SHOW the evidence.

FWIW, my position, which is far from "impossible", is this:

I have not seen ANY evidence that supports BO's claim. Telling me that others have seen it, so I should just believe the official story, too, is worthless.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #145 on:** June 06, 2011, 11:44:26 AM »

Quote from: Vandaler

I'm in fact surprised you would come up with such a canard since if it were true, it would be the kind of "gotcha" that is without appeal and it would be claimed by all the worlds government, and all the scientific authorities unanimously.

You have too much faith in governments and scientists, Van. Modern history is full of examples that contradict your faith. The modern world runs on lies and the perpetuation thereof by an incomprehensibly-corrupt establishment.

Vandaler · « **Reply #146 on:** June 06, 2011, 11:55:37 AM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

You have too much faith in governments and scientists, Van. Modern history is full of examples that contradict your faith. The modern world runs on lies and the perpetuation thereof by an incomprehensibly-corrupt establishment.

It's not about my faith in this or that... it's that your counter-argument to the effect that the DNA tests takes to long is wrong. You're concluding on false premises.

Since we both agree that he's dead, perhaps we call it a day ?

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #147 on:** June 06, 2011, 02:28:30 PM »

Let us grant that the DNA test can be done in five minutes (or whatever)... I am still unimpressed with the 'proof' that has or has not been made public. Once they have actually shared ANYTHING that can be examined by third/independent parties, then we can resume the discussion. Until then...

He is dead; 'all' is well :)

Pax tecuм, amigo :)

the smart sheep · « **Reply #148 on:** June 24, 2011, 11:33:01 PM »

The modern world runs on lies and the perpetuation thereof by an incomprehensibly-corrupt establishment.[/quote]

agreed

Did you know that on May 1st JPII was beatified, Prince William was married and bin laden was killed (for the ninth time)? Looks like one big party weekend for the Zionist.

And I am pretty sure May 1 st is a celebration day for dictators like Stalin, Lenin and Mao Zedong.

the smart sheep

Raoul76 · « **Reply #149 on:** March 04, 2015, 12:28:48 AM »

Another correction here: I retract saying the Saddam execution video was fake, I'd thought that he was tried by an international UN-style court, rather than one in Baghdad, thus it seemed very strange that he would be handed over to a lynch mob-looking death. I also apologize for saying that was a lynch mob although it does have that look to it from our perspective.

The world is rife with fakery and psychological manipulation but you have to go by what facts you have, I don't really have any facts against that video.