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Author Topic: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)  (Read 5262 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2020, 04:06:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 24, 2020, 03:54:57 PM
    It's a step removed from that.  If there were people going around having abortions so they could sell them for vaccines, one would argue that creating the market demand for these could almost be classified as formal participation in the evil.  There's no evidence that a single extra abortion was motivated by the need to acquire a few small samples of tissue.  When one creates MOTIVATION to evil, then one can be a formal participant in the evil, becoming part of the FORMAL cause for the evil.

    So these vaccines are slightly more removed being being able to impute formal participation in abortion because there's no indication that it was the formal cause of any abortions.
    I’m just highlighting the fact that +Strickland  is laying the blame at Catholics’ feet when he says their using abortive vaccines will result in the perpetuation of abortion (ie., they are increasing demand).
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #46 on: August 24, 2020, 04:08:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 24, 2020, 04:06:22 PM
    I’m just highlighting the fact that +Strickland  is laying the blame at Catholics’ feet when he says their using abortive vaccines will result in the perpetuation of abortion (ie., they are increasing demand).
    If women were being paid a bounty to abort their babies by vaccine makers who needed a constant supply of such material, this could be argued. But in practice I don't think there is any causal connection between a woman's choice to abort her child and a drug company using matter from the baby's dead body.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #47 on: August 24, 2020, 04:17:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on August 24, 2020, 04:08:24 PM
    If women were being paid a bounty to abort their babies by vaccine makers who needed a constant supply of such material, this could be argued. But in practice I don't think there is any causal connection between a woman's choice to abort her child and a drug company using matter from the baby's dead body.
    The bounty is paid to Planned Parenthood.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #48 on: August 24, 2020, 04:33:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matto on August 24, 2020, 04:01:57 PM
    Catholics 1800 years ago - "No, not even a speck of incense will I burn to the false gods of Caesar."

    Catholics today (even sedes :facepalm:) - "Sure, go have yourselves injected with the flesh of murdered babies. No pre-vatican II docuмents condemned it."

    And we condemn women for wearing pants.

    I do think we will be forced to take the vaccine at gunpoint.

    We're all dirty to some extent, Matto.  When we buy things from most of the major retailers, we're creating a market for their slave-labor goods.  We're also helping to give these evil corporations profits which they often use for nefarious and evil purposes.  It's almost as if we just can't get away from it in any realistic way.  We're trapped in this cesspool of evil ... short of taking radical steps which we can't do given our duties of state.  If I lived by myself and did not have a wife and children to care for, I would probably go completely off grid and adopt as much of an Amish-type lifestyle as I could (minus their heresies of course).  Nor would a handful of people here or there doing the same make any difference.  There has to be a group effort pushed by the leaders of the Church, who, alas!, have given themselves over to evil.  If a Holy Pope ordered all Catholics to refuse the vaccines, things would start changing as billions of people now suddenly can't be ignored.  Why aren't Catholics rioting and burning down abortion clinics?

    With that said, there's no compelling reason for any Catholic to accept the abortion-tissue vaccines.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #49 on: August 24, 2020, 05:27:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 24, 2020, 03:42:02 PM
    OK, we've gone over this 50 times.

    1) material participation in abortion

    and

    2) desecration of the dead

    Let's say they suddenly put the whole bodies of aborted babies on the market for sale.  Would it be OK to purchase them as feed for your farm animals?
    I'm against taking a vaccine that uses foetal tissue, largely for reason (2), but I don't really understand the argument for (1).

    For taking a vaccine that uses cells that were reproduced from an abortion that occurred 40 years ago is participating in abortion, then participating in sin must be something so insanely broad that basically everything we ever do is participating in sin. Not only would buying shoes that were made slave labour participating in slavery, but even buying shoes that were produced in a factory that was built by slave labour 40 years ago would also be participating in slavery. Is entering a building that stands where a graveyard stood 100 years ago participating in desecration of the dead? Is a man paying his taxes in territory illegally annexed decades prior participating in unjust war? Heck, is changing the tire on a bastard's car participating in adultery?

    I mean, I just don't understand how it could possibly be participating in the abortion in any meaningful way, without condemning literally every action a person could possibly make in one way or another. The charge of desecration of the dead makes sense, since the vaccine or its production still has cells produced from the foetus involved to this day. And one could also easily argue that it's also sinful because it's unnecessarily supporting an industry that wouldn't exist, at least in its current form, without abortion. But I really don't understand how it's participation in abortion.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #50 on: August 24, 2020, 05:50:19 PM »
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    • Regarding the use of fetal cells for #2 (playing devil’s advocate here), such cells are used in the chemical process to CREATE the vaccine.  Are such cells even chemically present in the final product?  Or are the cells chemically changed/extinguished in the process?  Just asking questions.  
    .
    Example:  Cremation is sinfully desecrating bodies.  But once a body is burned, and the ashes are put into the ground, is not the body chemically gone?  The body was chemically altered when it burned, especially if it was mixed with some chemical additives, so can’t one argue that such ashes aren’t “sacred” anymore?  
    .
    Just like if you want to burn holy objects that are broken, once you burn them, the natural essence is gone, so is the blessing attached. 
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    Offline B from A

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #51 on: August 24, 2020, 05:53:12 PM »
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    • People need to stop being naive & do a little research. 


    Aborted Fetal Cell Line Vaccines And The Catholic Family

    Go to the sections on:
    "The Need for Further Fetal Tissue"
    "New Aborted Fetal Cell Lines Underway"
    "Encouraging Further Abortions and Research"
    "The Hunt for Fresh Fetuses"
    "An Incentive to Abort" ("Women considering abortion are more likely to do so if they believe they can donate the fetus for research. As presented by the Nebraska Catholic Conference at the State Capitol Rotunda, March 21, 2001, numerous studies and polls conducted over the years show the following:")
    "Crystal Clear Complicity" etc. 
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    Offline B from A

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #52 on: August 24, 2020, 05:57:07 PM »
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    From fetal tissue to stem cell research, pharmaceutical companies would not be investing billions of dollars into these new cell lines unless they felt sure they would have a market. In fact, if parents did NOT use the vaccines obtained from aborted fetal cell lines at all, such action would have effectively ended the practice years ago. It would not be a fair or accurate statement to say that people who use the vaccines do not contribute to an immoral act, because in fact, they are providing financial motivation and incentive plus actual funding to the pharmaceutical industry to continue this immoral practice.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #53 on: August 24, 2020, 05:59:20 PM »
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    It would not be a fair or accurate statement to say that people who use the vaccines do not contribute to an immoral act, because in fact, they are providing financial motivation and incentive plus actual funding to the pharmaceutical industry to continue this immoral practice.


    Vaccines are both protected by law and also forced by law (in many states).  The ultimate responsibility for these crimes are lawmakers and drug companies.  If getting the covid vaccine is intrinsically evil, then vaccines have been intrinsically evil for 40+ years.  Ultimately new-rome's last "doctrine" that they uphold is "sanctity of life" so the covid vaccine is an easy 'headline grabber' to highlight to the "consevative" novus ordo sheeple that the bishops are "fighting for good".
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #54 on: August 24, 2020, 07:06:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on August 24, 2020, 05:27:58 PM
    For taking a vaccine that uses cells that were reproduced from an abortion that occurred 40 years ago is participating in abortion, then participating in sin must be something so insanely broad that basically everything we ever do is participating in sin.

    Yes, there's such a thing as remote material participation in sin.  Remote material participation can be justified depending on the need to do so.  Nevertheless, if you believe, as I do, that vaccines are not only not beneficial to health, but positively harmful, there's no justification for even this remote participation.

    So, for instance, we do remotely participate in evil in buying goods from Amazon or Walmart.  But the simple fact is that we have needs to buy things to get by in life.  And the more remote the participation, the less serious an offsetting consideration is required to make it justified.

    I believe that receiving abortion-tissue vaccines is less remote than something like buying goods from Walmart, but it's not nothing either.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #55 on: August 24, 2020, 07:13:13 PM »
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    • Let's assume for a second that the infants whose tissues were used had died of natural causes, from a miscarriage.

    Would it still be wrong to use vaccines made from their tissues?

    I argue yes.  So that's one aspect of it.  I believe that it's almost akin to cannibalism.  With cannibalism one ingests the human tissue; here we inject it.

    Now one can compound this with the sin of abortion, and that makes it even worse.

    So, for instance, let's say that people died of some cause, and they donated their skin to be used to make lampshades (as per the old nαzι human lampshade story).  That would be incredibly disrespectful to the human bodies that God intended to be temples of the Holy Spirit ... not to mention extremely gross.  Now let's say that the people had been victims of a serial murderer or genocidal maniac leader of some kind.  That would make it worse.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #56 on: August 24, 2020, 07:34:38 PM »
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    I believe that receiving abortion-tissue vaccines is less remote than something like buying goods from Walmart, but it's not nothing either.

    Sure, I agree with that.  But the issue of MANDATORY vaccines makes the involvement in evil even less remote than buying chinese-slavery goods.  In the former, one may not have a choice (temporally speaking); in the latter, you can shop elsewhere.  I don't see a similarity in culpability between fetal cell vaccines and the 'mark of the beast'.  The former is (possibly, arguably) a necessary evil one "could" accept (depending on the circuмstances), while the latter is a denial of the Faith.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #57 on: August 24, 2020, 09:34:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 24, 2020, 07:06:37 PM
    Yes, there's such a thing as remote material participation in sin.  Remote material participation can be justified depending on the need to do so.  
    Where is the need to do so with a COVID19 vaccine?
    1) Hardly anyone dies from it
    2) The vaccine probably won't work
    3) The vaccine is poison and not medicine.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #58 on: August 24, 2020, 09:56:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 24, 2020, 07:06:37 PM
    Yes, there's such a thing as remote material participation in sin.  Remote material participation can be justified depending on the need to do so.  Nevertheless, if you believe, as I do, that vaccines are not only not beneficial to health, but positively harmful, there's no justification for even this remote participation.

    So, for instance, we do remotely participate in evil in buying goods from Amazon or Walmart.  But the simple fact is that we have needs to buy things to get by in life.  And the more remote the participation, the less serious an offsetting consideration is required to make it justified.

    I believe that receiving abortion-tissue vaccines is less remote than something like buying goods from Walmart, but it's not nothing either.
    If participation is to partake in, than how could one possibly participate in an abortion that took place before they were even conceived? Sure, I can benefit from that sin, but benefitting from a sin that took place before I ever existed is not a sin of my own. 

    I agree that I can participate in the sin of desecration, since that clearly takes place to this day with the reproduction of the cells of the deceased, but someone being able to participate in a sin from before they ever existed surely defies the laws of chronology. How can I possibly partake in the murder of someone who died before I was conceived? I'd have to be a time traveller.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #59 on: August 24, 2020, 11:16:05 PM »
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    Where is the need to do so with a COVID19 vaccine?
    1) Hardly anyone dies from it
    2) The vaccine probably won't work
    3) The vaccine is poison and not medicine.

    The need would arise (1) for those ignorant enough to disagree with your above truths (i.e. media brainwashed), and (2) if such a vaccine is mandated by force or through other grave penalties (loss of job, loss of house, separation of family, jail).
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