Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)  (Read 5267 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Yeti

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 4154
  • Reputation: +2435/-528
  • Gender: Male
Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2020, 02:17:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I probably stepped into a bear trap with my last post, but that's okay. Ideas need to be questioned in order to be validated, and if an idea is true then it should be able to stand up to criticism.
    .
    I will just add that I have never seen any pre-Vatican II book say that it is immoral to receive a vaccine that was created with the help of aborted fetal tissue. While this is probably because such an idea was unthinkable before Vatican II, you will certainly see them explain that involvement with the sins of others is only sinful if one's involvement somehow helps the sin be committed, or directly cooperates in some way. That is the link that I think is completely missing between the customer in Walgreens getting his flu shot, and the abortion doctor murdering the baby whose cells are used to develop the medicine being injected into the guy in Walgreens. The latter is not helping the former in any way that I've ever seen demonstrated.
    .
    Okay, you guys can bring the flames now. :laugh1:

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #16 on: August 24, 2020, 02:21:19 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • August Tweet by Bishop Strickland of Tyler, TX (referenced by ++Vigano):

    I renew my call that we reject any vaccine that is developed using aborted children. Even if it originated decades ago it still means a child’s life was ended before it was born & then their body was used as spare parts. We will never end abortion if we do not END THIS EVIL!”

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Bishopoftyler/status/1289613264125485057
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12718
    • Reputation: +8109/-2501
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #17 on: August 24, 2020, 02:23:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yeti, I too have questions.  The logic isn’t full-proof.  (1) Vaccines aren’t advertised as having fetal cells, so it’s not like it’s common knowledge.  (2) The number of steps away from a sin you are, affects the culpability.  (3)  Theoretically, I agree that it’s immoral, but in practice, it’s hard to say who is guilty.  (4). Is there an alternative non-abortion vaccine?  No, because no one knows which vaccines have fetal cells and which don’t.  Or maybe they ALL have fetal cells.  In which case, then there’s no avoiding it (if you get a shot).
    .
    How many products are bought in the USA, which are made from slave labor (defrauding workers of their pay - one of the 4 sins that cries to heaven for vengeance).  So everyone that buys shoes, clothing, and rice from overseas (which is like 90% of the market) is guilty of slave labor?  No, but that’s the same logic.

    Offline PAT317

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 916
    • Reputation: +787/-117
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #18 on: August 24, 2020, 02:26:16 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • August Tweet by Bishop Strickland of Tyler, TX (referenced by ++Vigano):

    I renew my call that we reject any vaccine that is developed using aborted children. Even if it originated decades ago it still means a child’s life was ended before it was born & then their body was used as spare parts. We will never end abortion if we do not END THIS EVIL!”

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Bishopoftyler/status/1289613264125485057
    .

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4154
    • Reputation: +2435/-528
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #19 on: August 24, 2020, 02:36:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • August Tweet by Bishop Strickland of Tyler, TX (referenced by ++Vigano):

    I renew my call that we reject any vaccine that is developed using aborted children. Even if it originated decades ago it still means a child’s life was ended before it was born & then their body was used as spare parts. We will never end abortion if we do not END THIS EVIL!”

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Bishopoftyler/status/1289613264125485057
    His last statement needs some kind of proof or argument. In any case, committing murder and using the body of a murder victim for scientific research are two completely different things. Even now, one can lawfully and morally donate his body for research after he dies a natural death. The argument is still lacking the link between how using aborted fetal tissue contributes to abortion. Indeed, the argument seems to rely on retro-causality or time travel or some other absurdity, if we are saying that someone receiving a vaccine today is helping to kill a child who was murdered decades ago. The more you think about this idea, the weirder it gets.


    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #20 on: August 24, 2020, 02:38:05 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I probably stepped into a bear trap with my last post, but that's okay. Ideas need to be questioned in order to be validated, and if an idea is true then it should be able to stand up to criticism.
    .
    I will just add that I have never seen any pre-Vatican II book say that it is immoral to receive a vaccine that was created with the help of aborted fetal tissue. While this is probably because such an idea was unthinkable before Vatican II, you will certainly see them explain that involvement with the sins of others is only sinful if one's involvement somehow helps the sin be committed, or directly cooperates in some way. That is the link that I think is completely missing between the customer in Walgreens getting his flu shot, and the abortion doctor murdering the baby whose cells are used to develop the medicine being injected into the guy in Walgreens. The latter is not helping the former in any way that I've ever seen demonstrated.
    .
    Okay, you guys can bring the flames now. :laugh1:

    The SSPX says there’s no problem with remote and passive cooperation in evil if there is grave inconvenience.

    That’s the argument of the 2005 Vatican docuмent which they have endorsed.

    ++Vigano seems to be saying using such vaccines is intrinsically evil (ie., their use allows for no exceptions).

    To make this argument, ++Vigano needs to show that the object of the act is evil, in which case, neither circuмstance nor intention can make the act permissible.

    So what is the object?

    Properly identifying the object is where theologians and biased commentators can get cute.

    Consider a man about to drink poison because he fears being captured by the enemy:

    Is the object simply “drinking,” with the drink being a poison a mere circuмstance?

    Or is the object “drinking poison,” with the poisonous nature of the potion being inseparable from the drinking?

    I suspect there will be arguments about this, but if we return to the matter at hand:

    Is the object merely “being vaccinated,” (in which case it is only the intention and/or abortive circuмstances which would make the act evil, as the SSPX is implicitly arguing)?

    Or, is the object “using abortive vaccines," with the abortive nature of the vaccine being morally inextricable from the act (as ++Vigano seems to be arguing)?

    In any case, now that ++Viganò’s position is clear and indisputable, I hope he will take the next step and defend it against the 2005 docuмent which his opinion clearly opposes.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12718
    • Reputation: +8109/-2501
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #21 on: August 24, 2020, 02:44:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The only way you could argue that it is intrinsically evil is if the vaccines were openly advertised as having abortive cells, and the purpose of the vaccine is to "accept abortion" or "take part in" the abortion industry (i.e. a pinch of incense to the gods).  Being that these fetal cells are only used to create a "medicine" (so the story goes), then it's a gray area.
    .
    It's like the famous example of if an expectant mother's life is in danger, and the doctor performs an operation to save her life, however this causes (or could cause) the death of the baby, then such an act is not immoral, because the intent was not to kill the baby.  

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 15060
    • Reputation: +10006/-3163
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #22 on: August 24, 2020, 02:47:26 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • The only way you could argue that it is intrinsically evil is if the vaccines were openly advertised as having abortive cells, and the purpose of the vaccine is to "accept abortion" or "take part in" the abortion industry (i.e. a pinch of incense to the gods).  Being that these fetal cells are only used to create a "medicine" (so the story goes), then it's a gray area.
    .
    It's like the famous example of if an expectant mother's life is in danger, and the doctor performs an operation to save her life, however this causes (or could cause) the death of the baby, then such an act is not immoral, because the intent was not to kill the baby.  

    Wrong:

    A moral act is intrinsically evil because its object is evil.

    Whether or not the recipient (or parent) is aware of the abortive cells used in production only pertains to culpability (i.e., ignorance is a mitigating factor, but does not make an evil act good) as a circuмstance of the human act in question.

    But regardless of circuмstances, it is the essence of an intrinsically evil act to remain evil regardless of circuмstances and intention, in view of its evil object.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Matto

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6882
    • Reputation: +3852/-406
    • Gender: Male
    • Love God and Play, Do Good Work and Pray
    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #23 on: August 24, 2020, 02:48:49 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • I know you didn't mean it this way, Yeti, but when I read your posts I couldn't help but think, "It is okay to eat dead babies as long as you don't kill them yourselves but only buy them from the butcher and cook them and eat them after they were already killed. I've never read any pre-vatican II books opposing the eating of already dead human babies."

    But it is worse than just vaccines, I have heard they use dead babies in foods like coffee creamers and sodas and cosmetics and who knows what else. Once the baby killing was rationalized, the dead baby parts became a commodity like the mythical Jєωιѕн lampshades and soaps but this time it is real. It is likely that all of us have consumed dead babies already in our foods, not even counting the vaccines, without even knowing it.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4154
    • Reputation: +2435/-528
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #24 on: August 24, 2020, 02:50:08 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yeti, I too have questions.  The logic isn’t full-proof.  (1) Vaccines aren’t advertised as having fetal cells, so it’s not like it’s common knowledge.
    .
    This is irrelevant, since we know and we are the ones discussing it. My point with the guy in Walgreens is not that he doesn't know the drug was made using fetal cells, but rather that he didn't abort the baby and didn't even use the cells to make the drug that is being injected into his arm.
    .

    Quote
    (2) The number of steps away from a sin you are, affects the culpability.

    .
    I think it's more like your culpability is determined by the nature of your involvement, but that's probably what you are getting at. Driving a get-away car for bank robbers is a sin, if you know they are robbing the bank. You are helping them get away with the crime, which is helping them commit the crime. But what about eating at a mafia-owned restaurant because you like the chianti and mozzarella? So you give them a $50 bill for your dinner, even though you know they may well use that exact same bill to pay a hit-man to kill someone in a rival gang. Is it wrong for you to pay with that bill, or even to eat there in the first place? Of course not. You are not contributing anything to murder.
    .

    Quote
    (3)  Theoretically, I agree that it’s immoral, but in practice, it’s hard to say who is guilty.

    .
    The abortion doctor is guilty, for starters, along with the nurses. Then the mother is obviously guilty, and the father if he supports the abortion, and any family members who encourage it. See how this works? People who commit a sin or directly influence its commission are the guilty ones.
    .

    Quote
    (4). Is there an alternative non-abortion vaccine?

    .
    I don't think this matters until it is demonstrated that there is a problem with the aborted-cell vaccine to begin with.

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4154
    • Reputation: +2435/-528
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #25 on: August 24, 2020, 02:52:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I know you didn't mean it this way, Yeti, but when I read your posts I couldn't help but think, "It is okay to eat dead babies as long as you don't kill them yourselves but only buy them from the butcher and cook them and eat them after they were already killed. I've never read any pre-vatican II books opposing the eating of already dead human babies."
    Cannibalism isn't a question that comes up that often in theology books, but I believe it's forbidden except in cases of extreme necessity (imminent starvation). The body being, potentially, the temple of the Holy Ghost, it is sinful to desecrate it or treat it with irreverence. This is why cemeteries are holy places.


    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4154
    • Reputation: +2435/-528
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #26 on: August 24, 2020, 02:55:51 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The only way you could argue that it is intrinsically evil is if the vaccines were openly advertised as having abortive cells, and the purpose of the vaccine is to "accept abortion" or "take part in" the abortion industry (i.e. a pinch of incense to the gods).  Being that these fetal cells are only used to create a "medicine" (so the story goes), then it's a gray area.
    Well, maybe, but I don't see how this would work in practice. In any case, it isn't happening now, so this is academic anyway. So you are saying the government would say, "Anyone who receives this vaccination, we will accept their participation as accepting the practice of abortion." I mean, who cares how they interpret your actions anyway? Someone getting injected with medicine is really not doing anything more than taking medicine.

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4154
    • Reputation: +2435/-528
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #27 on: August 24, 2020, 03:10:53 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The SSPX says there’s no problem with remote and passive cooperation in evil if there is grave inconvenience.

    That’s the argument of the 2005 Vatican docuмent which they have endorsed.

    ++Vigano seems to be saying using such vaccines is intrinsically evil (ie., their use allows for no exceptions).

    To make this argument, ++Vigano needs to show that the object of the act is evil, in which case, neither circuмstance nor intention can make the act permissible.

    So what is the object?

    Properly identifying the object is where theologians and biased commentators can get cute.

    Consider a man about to drink poison because he fears being captured by the enemy:

    Is the object simply “drinking,” with the drink being a poison a mere circuмstance?

    Or is the object “drinking poison,” with the poisonous nature of the potion being inseparable from the drinking?

    I suspect there will be arguments about this, but if we return to the matter at hand:

    Is the object merely “being vaccinated,” (in which case it is only the intention and/or abortive circuмstances which would make the act evil, as the SSPX is implicitly arguing)?
    .
    Yeah, well, I certainly haven't seen any explanation for why it would be intrinsically evil to use the cells of an aborted fetus for scientific research, much less to receive a medicine developed using such material.
    .
    In the example of the guy drinking poison, it's clear that his object is ѕυιcιdє, because he is drinking to prevent himself from being taken alive. ѕυιcιdє is always sinful. The object isn't drinking in itself, because then he would be just as happy to drink a can of Coke in the same situation as he is to drink the poison. But if you grabbed the poison away from such a person and handed him a Coke (possibly quoting the old advertising slogan, "Have a Coke!"), he would get angry because you interfered with his real object. He is using death as a way of escaping the enemy, which is immoral. (Some people seem to think Coke is poisonous, so those people can replace "Coke" with "smart water" or whatever they like :laugh2:).
    .
    The object of taking medicine is to restore or protect one's health. That is a good object.
    .

    Quote
    Or, is the object “using abortive vaccines," with the abortive nature of the vaccine being morally inextricable from the act (as ++Vigano seems to be arguing)?

    .
    Well, the average person receiving the vaccine would not have this intention. If there is some inherent connection between receiving this vaccine and helping to abort children, I would certainly like to see it, but that's what's missing here.
    .
    Using cadavers for scientific research is as old as time, and I have never seen any claim that it is wrong to use a cadaver that was murdered, much less that it is wrong to receive treatments that depend on knowledge derived from the cadavers of murder victims. But this in no way takes away from the heinousness of the sin of murder.

    Offline Cera

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6722
    • Reputation: +3089/-1600
    • Gender: Female
    • Pray for the consecration of Russia to Mary's I H
    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #28 on: August 24, 2020, 03:24:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I quite agree that this is a remarkable docuмent. Sean has already drawn attention to sentences and paragraphs that are strikingly eloquent and admirably forthright. I would only add that here, as in earlier missives, ++Viganò takes pains to contextualize his arguments in ways both subtle and suggestive. I hardly think that he would write with such immense care if he did not wish or intend to create a body of instruction with didactic and pastoral significance—in other words, to do the sort of thing that bishops regularly did before the episcopacy was transformed by Vatican II into the College of Kumbaya.

    My sense is that ++Viganò, in all his messages since the dramatic first one, has been as interested in heuristics (stimulating investigation) as in hermeneutics (interpretation), history (specifically, of the subversion and betrayal of the Faith), and moral and doctrinal instruction (especially as it concerns the conciliar church's doctrinal discontinuity with the True Church). He always seems to be saying, as the Book of Revelation does, "Let him with ears to hear, listen," and here, as elsewhere, he makes glancing mention of ideas, cօռspιʀαcιҽs, and movements of the past and present that seem calculated to prompt those with ears to hear and minds pricked by curiosity to look up references to things they may know little or nothing about.

    I am thinking of the references to such present-day things as the Bilderberg Group and the Trilateral Commission or to such longer-standing enemies as "Masonic and globalist thought" and Malthusianism. Best and subtlest of all, however, is his identifying quantum dots and similar initiatives with the Mark of the Beast in Revelation. If the wider audience for this letter should turn out to be the ever-growing anti-vax community, a great many of whose non-Catholic members are evangelicals and fundies, the reference to Revelation—the most widely referenced book of the Bible in most non-mainstream Protestant sects—cannot fail to strike a chord with them.

    Last but not least, the evident sarcasm in the parenthetical note about the president of the Pontifical Academy for Life (what an Orwellian name!), formerly the bishop of Terni, led me to look him up. His name is Vincenzo Paglia, and all you need to know about him is to be found here. Mamma mia!
    Thank you for looking that up. Now I pray that I can unsee the "art." Loathsome. Similar homoerotic "art" has replaced traditional Catholic art at Santa Barbara mission.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12718
    • Reputation: +8109/-2501
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Vigano on Rejecting Abortive Vaccines (Again)
    « Reply #29 on: August 24, 2020, 03:27:03 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    This is irrelevant, since we know and we are the ones discussing it. My point with the guy in Walgreens is not that he doesn't know the drug was made using fetal cells,

    It's not clear if EVERY vaccine has fetal cells, or only certain ones, or certain types.  Again, it's not advertised on the vaccine.  Doctors don't know, nurses don't know.  Vaccine makers deny it or say they were only used sometimes.  No one can say, with absolute certainty, that vaccine 1002, received in Hospital x, on last tuesday, had fetal cells.  It's just not clear.
    .
    The urban legend is that Pepsi uses fetal cells in Mt Dew and soft drinks.  Some whistleblowers claimed it happened.  Pepsi denies it.  So is it intrinsically evil to drink a soft drink?  How would anyone know the truth vs fiction?
    .

    Quote
    The abortion doctor is guilty, for starters, along with the nurses. Then the mother is obviously guilty, and the father if he supports the abortion, and any family members who encourage it. See how this works? People who commit a sin or directly influence its commission are the guilty ones.

    I'm speaking of the guilt of the vaccine makers.  The purchaser of fetal cells is guilty, because they are profiting off death.  But what about the scientist who uses them to make medicine?  Not as clear.