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Offline Telesphorus

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« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2010, 07:12:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: treadingwater
    A baby death at home is always caused by the selfishness and irresponsibility of the mother.  A baby dies in the hospital no one would dare put such blame on the attendants.


    The difference is that doctors and nurses often have the skills and techniques to save a mother and child when dangerous situations come up.  Something a lone woman does not have.

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    No charges were ever made against the woman in question.  She continues to run a wonderful website http://www.joyousbirth.info/.


    I don't see how a Catholic can call that wonderful.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    « Reply #46 on: July 10, 2010, 08:31:44 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Quote from: treadingwater
    A baby death at home is always caused by the selfishness and irresponsibility of the mother.  A baby dies in the hospital no one would dare put such blame on the attendants.


    The difference is that doctors and nurses often have the skills and techniques to save a mother and child when dangerous situations come up.  Something a lone woman does not have.


    That's not always true and can be quite the opposite depending on the knowledge of the woman in question. But, yes, MOST women would not know as much as a doctor or nurse.

    My question is who is following the advice of these websites? Is it women who do indeed have the knowledge and experience necessary or is it women who've read a few blogs but don't really know enough for this to legitimately be a prudent decision. I'd like to think it's only the first group, but throwing a bunch of information up on the Internet can be dangerous in terms of who reads this or that and then thinks they know it all.


    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #47 on: July 10, 2010, 09:22:08 PM »
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  • but a woman in labor is necessarily constrained by her condition Mater.

    Offline MaterDominici

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    « Reply #48 on: July 10, 2010, 09:44:33 PM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    but a woman in labor is necessarily constrained by her condition Mater.


    Not necessarily. The biggest "inconvenience" would be catching the baby, but many home birthers do water births. Second would be simply being worn out by the process and unable to function. I was totally worn out with my last, but I get worn out just walking down the street, so I can't say as I'm anything close to typical in that respect.  :smirk:

    How do you think her condition would be restraining?

    Just to clarify, I think it imprudent for ANY woman to give birth alone without someone else present who has sufficient knowledge of how to react in all situations. But, I don't think she's completely nuts for wanting to do so ... only a little nuts.  :smile: ha ha

    WANTING to go to a hospital without a specific complication requiring you to do so is more nutty imo.

    Offline treadingwater

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    « Reply #49 on: July 13, 2010, 05:09:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    But, I don't think she's completely nuts for wanting to do so ... only a little nuts.  :smile: ha ha
    .


    Thanks, aren't we all just a little nuts? :laugh1:


    Offline MaterDominici

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    « Reply #50 on: July 13, 2010, 08:27:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: treadingwater
    Quote from: MaterDominici
    But, I don't think she's completely nuts for wanting to do so ... only a little nuts.  :smile: ha ha
    .


    Thanks, aren't we all just a little nuts? :laugh1:


    You bet!  :wink:

    So, when are you due?

    Offline treadingwater

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    « Reply #51 on: August 14, 2010, 04:40:36 PM »
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  • Came across this article says it all better than I can...
     

    What Does the Bible Say About Childbirth?




    "God blessed them and said to them, 'Be fruitful and increase in number.  Fill the earth and subdue it.' " (Genesis 1:28).  Obviously childbirth was an important and intended function for humans.

    Genesis chapter 3 tells us the story of mankind's disobedience to God, and his banishment from paradise.  It is from this passage that many MISUNDERSTANDINGS of childbirth have arisen.

    In the figurative creation story, Genesis 3:14 says, "So the Lord God said to the serpent, 'Because you have done this, "cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals."  You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life.  And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

    Not only did God curse the serpent, but he also cursed the ground.  Verse 17 says, "...cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life."

    Because of the serpent's deception, he was cursed.  The ground was also cursed.  But man and woman were never cursed!  Because of their disobedience, God changed the circuмstances they would have to live under.  He made everything more difficult.  Instead of simply picking fruit off of trees that were flourishing, Adam would have to do hard work to get his food.  Instead of childbirth being easy and effortless, there would be some hard work involved there as well.  The reason for this, however, was not because man and woman were cursed, but because they would buy into the deception and lies that would keep them from exercising their God's ordained authority to have dominion over the earth.

    Genesis 3:16 says,  "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain will you give birth to children.  Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

    Now the misunderstanding comes from the word "pain" in this verse, which has been mistranslated.  This word is NOT referring to physical pain.  It is referring to hard work and emotional travail.  The same word translated "pain" in the Greek Septuagint version of Genesis 3:16 is also used in Luke 22:45, and this helps to give us an idea of its true meaning.

    "When he rose from prayer and went back
    to the disciples, he found them asleep,
    exhausted from sorrow."

    The word "sorrow" in this verse is the same word translated "pain" in Genesis 3:16.  The apostles had not been enduring any physical pain in the garden of Gethsemane; they were exhausted from worrying about Jesus' impending death on the cross.  They had worked themselves up into an emotional frenzy that had drained them of their strength and incapacitated them.  Does that sound like what happens to a woman in labor?

    Because the sensations of childbirth are strange to a woman, and because she has not properly prepared herself for what it will be like, she often becomes fearful.  Because she does not know how to cope with these new sensations, she often works herself up into quite an emotional state, and comes to dread and fear each contraction.  This creates what has been called the Fear-Tension-Pain cycle.

    Imagine that you have to get up and speak in front of a large audience of people.  The auditorium is filled, and you are waiting to go out and deliver your message.  What might be happening in your body at that time?  What physical sensations might you feel?

    Butterflies in stomach
    Knees shaking
    Sweaty palms
    Heart racing
    Tension in neck and shoulders
    Muscle Pain
    Queasy stomach
    Shortness of breath
    Feeling faint

    All of these are the body's way of reacting to fear.  Nearly all women experience these same sensations during childbirth - not because they are having a baby, but because these sensations are part of a fear reaction.  Because the sensations of childbirth are new to a woman and she is confused, she does not realize they are due to her own fear reaction.

    God never cursed man or woman.  In the figurative creation story, He did curse the serpent and the ground.  But he gave man & woman dominion over the earth, and power over deception by giving them direct, intuitive access to the wisdom of the ages, which provides direction in every situation.

    You see, even though God did not "curse" woman with pain in childbirth, the circulation of this figurative creation story has facilitated a change in the physical nature of the world we live in.  He said two things would happen:  woman would have much mental and emotional discomfort (sorrow) in childbirth, and he also said that husbands would try to rule over their wives.  These two things were not God's will for marriage and childbirth, they were a result of deception.  Because we create our own reality , the circulation of this figurative creation-and-fall story has caused those who believe it to create a situation in which there is significant pain during the childbirth process.  It has also caused a situation in which men feel justified in dominating women, and women feel forced to accept this domination.  Also, due to the fact that before the flood there was superior nutrition which caused childbirth to be painless, because the uterus was receiving all the nutrients it needed to function properly, now that the flood has destroyed the high nutrient content of the foods we eat, unless women are aware and make sure to provide a high level of nutrition during pregnancy, they will probably have pain.  It is not inevitable, and can be prevented.

    When husbands and wives seek God's will for their marriage, there will be no adversarial relationship, no one person ruling another.  By the same token, when women seek God's way of giving birth, there will be no pain!  Evil, pain, suffering, disease....we have the power to do away with them, through the teachings of Jesus Christ.

    "Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.  But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our  iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed."     Isaiah 53:4-5

    We are able to overcome pain, deception, and obstacles the same way Jesus did - by realizing our inherent power which comes from God, and by changing our belief about the situation we are in.  His punishment brings us peace because we know that, just as he was delivered from the pain and suffering of the cross, we can also be delivered from our pain and suffering.  Jesus did suffer on the cross, but he did not die there as many Christian teachers suggest.  There is much historical evidence, from the Dead Sea Scrolls and other sources, that Jesus was delivered from eventual death on the cross and went on to teach in other countries, to other cultures.  He died and was buried in India, along with Mary his mother.  Jesus knew at the time he went to the cross that a plan would be put in place which would deliver him, and he was able to stabalize his physical condition so that he would not die before the plan was carried out.  There are many reasons why he went through this horrendous physical torture, but one of them was to show us that nothing is impossible to us.  Even though we make mistakes, missing the mark, if we follow his teachings, we can reverse our sickness, negative emotional states, and any punishment imposed by self or others.  Changing our lives is within our power, just as it was within Jesus' power as the most spiritually evolved human that ever lived.

    Incidentally, the "sorrows" in the above verse which Jesus took upon himself are the same word translated "pain" in Genesis 3:16 and "sorrow" in Luke 22:45.  So that ties it all together.

    Barring some kind of physical obstruction, injury, or other physical complication, pain in childbirth can be virtually eliminated with proper preparation for birth, by providing excellent nutrition, by accepting that the body knows how to give birth, and realizing that pain is either the result of the fear response, or is the body's way of encouraging us to change our physical circuмstances so as to eliminate the pain and the cause of it.  We can use the pain, if it occurs, as a guide, knowing that it is directing us toward a solution.  And the solution must begin in our own minds.
     
     

    How Did Women Give Birth In The Bible?

    Exodus 1:15-21 tells us, "The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives,whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, 'When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live.'  The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live.  Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, 'Why have you done this?  Why have you let the boys live?' The midwives answered Pharoah, 'Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive.' So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous.  And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own."

    The midwives themselves said it best - "Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women."  Because the Hebrew women feared God, their births were somehow different.  Not only did God bless their births spiritually, but their birth practices were different.  Egyptian women who were used to lying around and being waited on hand and foot gave birth in the same manner, passively lying on a bed, enduring the experience.  Hebrew women, according to this passage, were vigorous throughout their births, and gave birth often with no help from anyone before the midwife arrived, or gave birth in an upright position on a birth stool if the midwife got there before the birth took place.  It also stated that, even if the midwife did arrive in time for the birth, that her task was simply to "observe" them on the birth stool.  She was a trained observer who watched for difficulties, but otherwise stayed out of the way.  For centuries, this is the way all women of faith gave birth.

    It seems clear that having a successful, victorious childbirth experience depends upon two main factors:

    1.  Learning to recognize and defeat the deceptions of childbirth.

    2.  Learning to give birth in the simple, vigorous, and active
         way that God intended.
     
     

    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #52 on: August 14, 2010, 05:10:27 PM »
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  • Giving birth without proper assistance is a grievous sin.

    May God have mercy on you and your child.


    Offline treadingwater

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    « Reply #53 on: August 14, 2010, 06:54:02 PM »
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  • Do you have a source or proof to backup your allegations?

    Offline wallflower

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    « Reply #54 on: August 14, 2010, 07:08:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: treadingwater
    I do not believe that childbirth is by nature dangerous, our fear of the process is.  

    Women left alone in labor become completely in tune to their bodies, present in the moment.   The presence of a birthing attendant deprives you of your focus instead of listening to your body your listening to their cues.

    We all believe conception is a gift from God I know childbirth is too.  Anyone who has given birth knows God is there in that moment.  To say that childbirth isn't spiritual is ludicrous, labor is a deep meditation of prayer.  Could you manage such an act surrounded by strangers disrupting your every thought, poking, prodding, robbing you of your dignity.

    Yes childbirth comes with risk but so does life.  We are all given tools to educate ourselves to lower or even eliminate risk, childbirth is no different.


    Oh my gosh, this thread scares me a little. Not because of a fear of childbirth but because of a fear of extremes. The bolded is simply not true. Perhaps in the Garden of Eden childbirth was not dangerous. However we live in the real world now and God only knows how many women throughout history have lost their lives to childbirth.

    What bible was this latest text taken from? This cannot be a Catholic article, is it? These people are clearly denying the tangible consequences of original sin on so many levels and trying to attribute them to some sort of psychology.

    The reason you are finding that most Catholic women will not go to this extreme is because they determine virtue to be virtuous only in moderation. You won't find this kind of psycho-babble among many Catholics. Does it help to eat well, rest, detox, exercise etc... absolutely. Does it help to try and be calm and prepared for the event? Absolutely. Can some women safely give birth at home? Absolutely. Is it wise not to have a plan B? No.

    Whether you like to admit it or not, a woman IS in danger during childbirth, and so is her child (as the rest of the family is in danger of losing their wife, child, mother and sibling). All protestant denials aside, this is the nature of original sin and its consequences. There are varying degrees of danger from next to none to death, and therefore varying degrees of intervention (of which I agree many women now have too much), but it is a dangerous undertaking, period. To say that all those tangible symptoms of trauma during childbirth are all in a woman's head is insulting at best. There is fear for a reason.  

    The other serious problem I have with that article is the insinuation that a women's problems in childbirth mean that they are somehow lacking in God's grace. We cannot compare the way God treated the Hebrews in the OT with the way He operates with us now. He was much more visible to them in different ways than how He is with us now. I trust in God. As such God provided a very good team of specialists who found out that my son had complications in utero. He also provided a very good hospital and surgeon when I 100% HAD to have a c-section or lose my son. I wanted to go as naturally as possible, stay home as long as possible, use as few drugs as possible, maybe even do a water birth. However, God very clearly wanted a different kind of resignation to a different Will.

    I absolutely understand and agree that too many women use too much intervention unnecessarily these days, and don't do enough to draw from their natural strength, however that does nothing to discount intervention when it IS necessary. And the truth is that we never know if/when it will be necessary. It is our duty to be prudent in our considerations of childbirth especially when there could be two lives on the line.

    There is a very thin line between trusting and testing God, as Our Lord Himself attested to when He refused to jump from the pinnacle at satan's tempting. Not having a Plan B or at least an assistant during a home-based childbirth falls in that category.


    Offline Matto

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    « Reply #55 on: August 14, 2010, 07:23:13 PM »
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  • Hire a midwife. Beware of pride. God Bless.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Offline Cheryl

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    « Reply #56 on: August 14, 2010, 07:48:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    Hire a midwife. Beware of pride. God Bless.


    I agree with Matto, Mater and others, a midwife is necessary for a home birth.  Women have always had other women to assist at the birth of a child.  It's good to put our trust in God, but God trusts in us to use our free will to make informed decisions. I always wanted to have a home birth, but it was more difficult at the time I had my children to find a certified midwife. It is wise to have someone who knows about assisting at child birth just on the off chance there is a complication.  It would be a tragedy to lose your child due to a complication that could have been prevented with someone nearby to help. God Bless

    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    « Reply #57 on: August 14, 2010, 10:07:49 PM »
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  •   As a one who has no experience or information, I don't presume to challenge or question any link or information posted here. Nor I can distinguish between true science and tricks of some doctors. So it is just a question:
      Is it true that there is a certain form of defect in babies, which can be diagnosed only by a blood test, and that they can prevent a subsequent mental retardation if they give an injection to the newborn in the first two hours after birth?
      I wonder if it is true, and if true how much is the possibilty? If it is 0.0000001% then it doesn't worth attention, if 2% then yes.

    Offline treadingwater

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    « Reply #58 on: August 15, 2010, 10:55:11 AM »
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  • In case of any true emergency I would call an ambulance, which is what a midwife would do.  

    I don't know what complication you think a midwife can save you from that you can't do yourself? Anyone tell me so I can educate myself better to prepare for this upcoming disaster.

    I could easily hire a midwife but why would I hire someone to create panic?  If you look hard enough you can always find something to worry about.  What good are we as patients if we do not provide them with an opportunity to use their skills.

    It is not my pride that has brought me to this choice but a humble need for peace in birth.  I understand that most of you believe that childbirth by nature is dangerous, I believe the interference of humans is what is dangerous.




    Offline treadingwater

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    « Reply #59 on: August 15, 2010, 10:57:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: spouse of Jesus
     
      Is it true that there is a certain form of defect in babies, which can be diagnosed only by a blood test, and that they can prevent a subsequent mental retardation if they give an injection to the newborn in the first two hours after birth?
     .


    It is true that many defects can only be determined through a blood test.  No there is no shot to cure mental retardation.