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Author Topic: When is the soul created?  (Read 4535 times)

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When is the soul created?
« on: November 11, 2012, 07:39:00 PM »
I've heard many "theory's" of the creation of the soul but lets take a short read of what the CHurch, Fathers, Doctors, Saints and Our Lady has taught in private revelation also:

In 1974, the Sacred Doctrine of the Faith gave its "Declaration on Procured Abortion" in which it is stated that the Church has not yet defined the moment the soul is created in the womb, yet the Church has declared that at conception is at that moment created a "human being" and to terminate that being is to commit murder of a "human being".  However, the question of the creation of the soul is and has not yet being dogmatically defined.

It was the opinion of the Old Testament and the Jews up until today, of the Fathers, Doctors and Saints, that the human soul (Intellect/Will) is not created until the moment of "Nidation" or at the moment when the mother first feels movement, which is and has been thought and taught to be around forty days for a male and eighty days for a female.

Philo the Jєωιѕн Philosopher (20BC-52AD) and Josephus the Jєωιѕн Historian (AD37-98), in conformity to rabbinic custom, ascribe to the distinction of the formed and unformed having different worth.  But of more importance are the opinions of the Church Fathers.  Tertulliams - Origen- St. Jerome - St. Augustine - St. Thomas and the Apostolic Constitutions - are all of the opinion that there is a delay in the infusion of the soul with the generation of man until the formation of the human body had reached the ultimate substantial form or completed formation, somethimes called lthe moment of "Quickening or Nidations", or again, the moment the mother  first feels the movement of life inside of her womb.  What is important to note here is that the opinion of the early Church Fathers, Doctors of the Church, and eminent writers, is predicated on their interpretation of Holy Scripture, according to the "Septuagint version of Exodus 21: 22-25, which reads as follows.

"And if two men strife and smite a woman with child, and her chidl be born imperfectly formed, he shall be forced to pay a penalty: as the woman's husband may lay upon him, he shall pay with a valuation.  But if it be perfectly formed, he shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for thooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

Modern versions of the Bible , traslate Exodus 21:22-25 somewhat differently.

DR. Kduvig Ott. in his "Fundamentals of CAtholic Dogma" p. 100f, gives the Aristotelian-scholastic viewpoint as presented by St. Thomas according to the Septuagint and the old-latin translation.

The Sacred Congregation of the Fatih , in the "Declaration On Procured Abortion, 1974, #7, p.9, &p. 26" explains that it was the common opinion of the early Church that of the delay of the infusion of the soul and that the "modern" consensus is that the soul is created at conception but that no definative declaration has been declared by the Church as of yet.

The Early Church Fathers and Doctors were unanimous in declaring for the delay of the infusion of the soul as taken from the meaning presented in Scripture.  Although, the Fathers and Doctors did not agree on the "method" that God used or acted on to delay the infusion, nevertheless they again were in agreement that the soul was not created until the moment of Nidation or Quickening.  It was St. Thomas who eventually came up with the explanation of how God created the human soul - in that firstly, at conception, although the life is human the soul is that of vegetative, as the body grows and develops the soul is transformed into animal and when the body is completely formed, then God in His act of Creation, instantly destroys the animal and creates and infuses the human soul.  

St. Thomas explains that starting at the moment of conception the single cell starts to divide and begins to grow immediately the heart, from the heart then the blood vessels with the nutrients and necessary elements begin to build the rest of the body until finally the last part of the body to be formed is the "brain" which is the vehicle by which the body presents to the soul the senses preceptions, which the Intellect gathers and then presents it to the will.  So that what St. Thomas is saying is that the human soul is not created until the brain is formed and at that instant God creates and infuses the human soul - God is firstly, indirectly, by pro-creation, with the co-operation of the parents, or Creator and at the moment of the complete formation of the brain, directly is our Father by the direct creation of our human soul.

Now: This has been the teaching and understanding of the Church, Fathers, Doctors and Saints of the Church for near two thousand years until the age of the enlightenment where this was questioned for the first time.  It is my faith and understanding that the "unanimous" teachings of the Fathers and Doctors is Cathloc Docrtine and unasailable.

In a catechism class with a certain priest I brought up this subject to which the priest became very angry and said:  Can you imagine if that was taught what the effect would be on the whole abortion debate.  To which I said, it is the duty of the priest and Church to teach the truth no matter where it may lie and this and has been the constant teaching of the Church. The priest then said that it is now the unanimous teaching of the Church and Theologians that the soul is created at conception - which I repeated that on the contrary, the Church in its 1974 Declaration says just the opposite, that it is not yet defined and that presently theologians are now of both opinions, but does not the unanimous, constant and centuries teaching of the Church rule first - or then we should follow the new teachings of Vatican II and the heretics now passing as Theologians in the Church.

Finally, the priest asked me did I get this from the "City of God" by the Ven. Mary of Agreda; and I said that I did firstly and then discovered after serious inquiry that it was also the teaching of the Church.

In "The City of God" dictated by Our Lady herself to the Venerable Mary of Agread in the 17th century, Vol. 4, The Coronation, p. 264, 265, #281: Our Lady does explain to Mary of Agreda that "ordinarily" the soul is delayed in its creation until the moment of Nidation thus supporting the teachings of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church.  I might say that Our Lady says at this point in the City of God that the salvation of pagans and idolaters is in certain propect.

This particular part of the City of God should be read by all as it has within it a treasure of teaching on this subject withing one paragraph.  It is my personal opinion that at some future date that this work, dicated directly by Our Lady herself to the Venerable Mary of Agreda - will someday be elevated to a position in the Church very close to right under the integrity of the Bible and Scripture itself.

It is a consolation to understand that many of these terrible abortions result not in the death of a baby with a soul, if aborted at least before 10 weeks, but the termination of a human life only, if I may say that at this moment considering the subject here.  It is still murder, one is still terminating the life of a potential human being at this point, but one not having a rational soul.  At this point we might resort to thinking objectively, of how things are and what the Church teaches, no matter our personal "feelings".

What say you?

When is the soul created?
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2012, 08:28:14 PM »
The old Aristotelian theory of embryology depended on spontaneous generation.

That theory is incorrect.  The rational soul of man is infused at the moment of conception - the development of the fetus is the unfolding of a form pre-existing in the embryo.  

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is also opposed to the idea of ensoulment into a spontaneously generating embryo around the time of the quickening (when limbs are formed)


When is the soul created?
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2012, 08:58:36 PM »
I was asked in front of an abortion clinic about 20 years ago when life begins.  Life begins at conception.  I say potential life begins with seed and sperm.  In a store, seeds for plants are carefully sealed and sold for a price. Are our seeds  created by God even more valuable?!   To destroy the seeds of man, purposely is against God, sinful. When conception takes place the soul is infused.  There is no room to destroy that which is of God.  

When is the soul created?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2012, 02:19:38 AM »
Quote from: Telesphorus
The old Aristotelian theory of embryology depended on spontaneous generation.

That theory is incorrect.  The rational soul of man is infused at the moment of conception - the development of the fetus is the unfolding of a form pre-existing in the embryo.  

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is also opposed to the idea of ensoulment into a spontaneously generating embryo around the time of the quickening (when limbs are formed)



What does "spontaneous generation" mean in regards to the supposed Aristotelian theory? Obviously you must agree, that God creates each soul "spontaneously".

The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is not necessarily relevant (nor does it teach contrary to St. Thomas, as one of the most celebrated theologians of modern times, Fr. Norberto del Prado showed in "Divus Thomas et Bulla Dogmatica Ineffabilis Deus").

It is at least absolutely legitimate for a Catholic to believe in successive animation, together with Jerome, Augustine, Thomas or the Decretum Gratianum, as long as nothing to the contrary is defined.

When is the soul created?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2012, 02:49:48 AM »
If ensoulment occurred not at conception but at some time later, that would make it moral to use the morning after pill, as you would not be killing a human being but some piece of tissue. Your theory is untenable.