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Offline Matthew

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What is a Liberal?
« on: September 23, 2013, 03:27:37 PM »
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  • People throw around the term "liberal" these days like it's nothing.

    But what is a liberal?

    Could we get some definitions?  Maybe a dictionary definition, a definition from the book "Liberalism is a Sin", and perhaps a more specific definition as it applies to Catholics?

    It helps to define terms.

    At this point, calling someone a "liberal" is about the same as calling them a "stupid-head". It's a baseless name with little meaning. No one ever goes into detail about what they're criticizing in their opponent. Just the hot-button name "liberal". I guess that's the worst thing you can call someone in a group of Trad Catholics, right?

    We've had a ton of threads about the general topic of "race" and "racism" -- it helps to define "racism" to be able to discuss it. Same for Liberalism.

    I'll start us off:

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/liberalism

    Quote
    : belief in the value of social and political change in order to achieve progress
     
    Full Definition of LIBERALISM

    1
    :  the quality or state of being liberal
    2
    a often capitalized :  a movement in modern Protestantism emphasizing intellectual liberty and the spiritual and ethical content of Christianity
    b :  a theory in economics emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usually based on free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard
    c :  a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties; specifically :  such a philosophy that considers government as a crucial instrument for amelioration of social inequities (as those involving race, gender, or class)
    d capitalized :  the principles and policies of a Liberal party


    So far, I don't think that is what most people are talking about. On to the next definition, I guess...
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    Offline Matthew

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    What is a Liberal?
    « Reply #1 on: September 23, 2013, 03:30:39 PM »
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  • Here is what New Advent has to say:

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09212a.htm


    Liberalism

    A free way of thinking and acting in private and public life.

    Definition

    The word liberal is derived from the Latin liber, free, and up to the end of the eighteenth century signified only "worthy of a free man", so that people spoke of "liberal arts", "liberal occupations". Later the term was applied also to those qualities of intellect and of character, which were considered an ornament becoming those who occupied a higher social position on account of their wealth and education. Thus liberal got the meaning of intellectually independent, broad-minded, magnanimous, frank, open, and genial. Again Liberalism may also mean a political system or tendency opposed to centralization and absolutism. In this sense Liberalism is not at variance with the spirit and teaching of the Catholic Church. Since the end of the eighteenth century, however, the word has been applied more and more to certain tendencies in the intellectual, religious, political, and economical life, which implied a partial or total emancipation of man from the supernatural, moral, and Divine order. Usually, the principles of 1789, that is of the French Revolution, are considered as the Magna Charta of this new form of Liberalism. The most fundamental principle asserts an absolute and unrestrained freedom of thought, religion, conscience, creed, speech, press, and politics. The necessary consequences of this are, on the one hand, the abolition of the Divine right and of every kind of authority derived from God; the relegation of religion from the public life into the private domain of one's individual conscience; the absolute ignoring of Christianity and the Church as public, legal, and social institutions; on the other hand, the putting into practice of the absolute autonomy of every man and citizen, along all lines of human activity, and the concentration of all public authority in one "sovereignty of the people". This sovereignty of the people in all branches of public life as legislation, administration, and jurisdiction, is to be exercised in the name and by order of all the citizens, in such a way, that all should have share in and a control over it. A fundamental principle of Liberalism is the proposition: "It is contrary to the natural, innate, and inalienable right and liberty and dignity of man, to subject himself to an authority, the root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself". This principle implies the denial of all true authority; for authority necessarily presupposes a power outside and above man to bind him morally.
    These tendencies, however, were more or less active long before 1789; indeed, they are coeval with the human race. Modern Liberalism adopts and propagates them under the deceiving mask of Liberalism in the true sense. As a direct offspring of Humanism and the Reformation in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, modern Liberalism was further developed by the philosophers and literati of England especially Locke and Hume, by Rousseau and the Encyclopedists in France, and by Lessing and Kant in Germany. Its real cradle, however, was the drawing-rooms of the moderately free-thinking French nobility (1730-1789), especially those of Mme Necker and her daughter, Mme de Staël. The latter was more than anybody else the connecting link between the free-thinking elements before and after the Revolution and the centre of the modern Liberal movement both in France and Switzerland. In her politico-religious views she is intimately connected with Mirabeau and the Constitutional party of the Revolution. These views find their clearest exposition in her work "Considérations sur les principaux événements de la Révolution française". She pleads for the greatest possible individual liberty, and denounces as absurd the derivation of human authority from God. The legal position of the Church, according to her, both as a public institution and as a property-owner is a national arrangement and therefore entirely subject to the will of the nation; ecclesiastical property belongs not to the church but to the nation; the abolition of ecclesiastical privileges is entirely justified, since the clergy is the natural enemy of the principles of Revolution. The ideal form of government is in smaller states the republic, in larger ones the constitutional monarchy after the model of England. The entire art of government in modern times, consists, according to Mme de Staël, in the art of directing public opinion and of yielding to it at the right moment.

    Development and principal types of modern Liberalism in non-English-speaking countries

    Since the so-called Liberal principles of 1789 are based upon a wrong notion of human liberty, and are and must forever be contradictory and indefinite in themselves, it is an impossibility in practical life to carry them into effect with much consistency. Consequently the most varying kinds and shades of Liberalism have been developed, all of which remained in fact more conservative than a logical application of Liberal principles would warrant. Liberalism was first formulated by the Protestant Genevese (Rousseau, Necker, Mme de Staël, Constant, Guizot); nevertheless it was from France, that it spread over the rest of the world, as did its different representative types. These developed in closest connection with the different Revolutions in Europe since 1789. The principal types are:—

    Anti-ecclesiastical Liberalism

    (1) The old Liberalism, first advocated by Mme de Staël and Constant. It may be described as the drawing-room Liberalism of the free-thinking educated classes, who, however, did not condescend to become practical politicians or statesmen; they were superior observers, infallible critics, standing above all parties. In later days some few of these old Liberals, animated by a truly liberal chivalry, stood up for the rights of suppressed minorities against Jacobin majorities, for instance, Littré and Laboulaye in France (1879-1880).

    (2) Closely connected with this old Liberalism of Mme de Staël is doctrinaire Liberalism which originated in the lecture-hall of Royer-Collard and in the salon of the Duc de Broglie (1814-1830). It was the Liberalism of the practical politicians and statesmen, who intended to re-establish, maintain, and develop, in the different states, the constitutional form of government based upon the principles of 1789. The most prominent representatives of this body were, besides de Broglie, Royer-Collard, Guizot in France, Cavour in Italy, von Rotteck and his partisans in Germany.

    (3) Bourgeois Liberalism, was the natural outgrowth of doctrinaire Liberalism. It adapted itself more to the interests of the propertied and moneyed classes; for the clergy and nobility having been dispossessed of their political power, these were the only classes which could make use of the new institutions, the people not being sufficiently instructed and organized to do so. The rich industrial classes, therefore, were from the very beginning and in all countries the mainstay of Liberalism, and Liberalism for its part was forced to further their interests. This kind of bourgeois Liberalism enjoyed its highest favour in France during the time of the citizen-king, Louis-Philippe (1830-40), who openly avowed his dependence upon it. It flourished in Germany, as "national Liberalism", in Austria, as "political Liberalism in general", in France, as the Liberalism of Gambetta's Opportunist party. Its characteristic traits are materialistic, sordid ideals, which care only for unrestrained enjoyment of life, egoism in exploiting the economically weak by means of tariffs which are for the interests of the classes, a systematic persecution of Christianity and especially of the Catholic Church and her institutions, a frivolous disregard and even a mocking contempt of the Divine moral order, a cynical indifference in the choice and use of means — slander, corruption, fraud, etc. — in fighting one's opponents and in acquiring an absolute mastery and control of everything.

    (4) The Liberal "parties of progress" are in opposition to the Conservatives and the Liberals of the bourgeois classes, in so far as these, when once in power, usually care little or nothing for further improvements according to their Liberal principles, whereas the former lay more stress on the fundamental tenets of Liberalism themselves and fight against a cynical one-sided policy of self-interest; for this reason they appear to an outsider more fair-minded.

    (5) Liberal Radicals are adherents of progressive modern ideas, which they try to realize without consideration for the existing order or for other people's rights, ideas, and feelings. Such was the first Liberal political party, the Spanish Jacobinos in 1810. This is the Radicalism, which under the mask of liberty is now annihilating the rights of Catholics in France.

    (6) The Liberal Democrats want to make the masses of the common people the deciding factor in public affairs. They rely especially on the middle classes, whose interests they pretend to have at heart.

    (7) Socialism is the Liberalism of self-interest nurtured by all classes of Liberals described above, and espoused by the members of the fourth estate and the proletariat. It is at the same time nothing but the natural reaction against a one-sided policy of self-interest. Its main branches are:

    Communism, which tries to reorganize the social conditions by abolishing all private ownership;
    Radical Social Democracy of Marx (founded 1848), common in Germany and Austria;
    Moderate Socialism (Democratic Socialistic Federation in England, Possibilists in France, etc.);
    Anarchist parties founded by Bakunin, Most, and Krapotkin, after 1868, for some periods allied to Social Democracy. Anarchism as a system is relatively the most logical and radical development of the Liberal principles.
    Ecclesiastical Liberalism (Liberal Catholicism)

    (1) The prevailing political form of modern Liberal Catholicism, is that which would regulate the relations of the Church to the State and modern society in accordance with the Liberal principles as expounded by Benjamin Constant. It had its predecessors and patterns in Gallicanism, Febronianism, and Josephinism. Founded 1828 by Lamennais, the system was later defended in some respects by Lacordaire, Montalembert, Parisis, Dupanloup, and Falloux.

    (2) The more theological and religious form of Liberal Catholicism had its predecessors in Jansenism and Josephinism; it aims at certain reforms in ecclesiastical doctrine and discipline in accordance with the anti-ecclesiastical liberal Protestant theory and atheistical "science and enlightenment" prevailing at the time. The newest phases of this Liberalism were condemned by Pius X as Modernism. In general it advocates latitude in interpreting dogma, oversight or disregard of the disciplinary and doctrinal decrees of the Roman Congregations, sympathy with the State even in its enactments against the liberty of the Church, in the action of her bishops, clergy, religious orders and congregations, and a disposition to regard as clericalism the efforts of the Church to protect the rights of the family and of individuals to the free exercise of religion.

    Condemnation of Liberalism by the Church

    By proclaiming man's absolute autonomy in the intellectual, moral and social order, Liberalism denies, at least practically, God and supernatural religion. If carried out logically, it leads even to a theoretical denial of God, by putting deified mankind in place of God. It has been censured in the condemnations of Rationalism and Naturalism. The most solemn condemnation of Naturalism and Rationalism was contained in the Constitution "De Fide" of the Vatican Council (1870); the most explicit and detailed condemnation, however, was administered to modern Liberalism by Pius IX in the Encyclical "Quanta cura" of 8 December, 1864 and the attached Syllabus. Pius X condemned it again in his allocution of 17 April, 1907, and in the Decree of the Congregation of the Inquisition of 3 July, 1907, in which the principal errors of Modernism were rejected and censured in sixty-five propositions. The older and principally political form of false Liberal Catholicism had been condemned by the Encyclical of Gregory XVI, "Mirari Vos", of 15 August, 1832 and by many briefs of Pius IX (see Ségur, "Hommage aux Catholiques Libéraux", Paris, 1875). The definition of the papal infallibility by the Vatican council was virtually a condemnation of Liberalism. Besides this many recent decisions concern the principal errors of Liberalism. Of great importance in this respect are the allocutions and encyclicals of Pius IX, Leo XIII, and Pius X. (Cf., Recueil des allocutions consistorales encycliques . . . citées dans le Syllabus", Paris, 1865) and the encyclicals of Leo XIII of 20 January, 1888, "On Human Liberty"; of 21 April, 1878, "On the Evils of Modern Society"; of 28 December, 1878, "On the Sects of the Socialists, Communists, and Nihilists"; of 4 August, 1879, "On Christian Philosophy"; of 10 February, 1880, "On Matrimony"; of 29 July, 1881, "On the Origin of Civil Power"; of 20 April, 1884, "On Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ"; of 1 November, 1885, "On the Christian State"; of 25 December, 1888, "On the Christian Life"; of 10 January, 1890, "On the Chief Duties of a Christian Citizen"; of 15 May, 1891, "On the Social Question"; of 20 January, 1894, "On the Importance of Unity in Faith and Union with the Church for the Preservation of the Moral Foundations of the State"; of 19 March, 1902, "On the Persecution of the Church all over the World". Full information about the relation of the Church towards Liberalism in the different countries may be gathered from the transactions and decisions of the various provincial councils. These can be found in the "Collectio Lacensis" under the headings of the index: Fides, Ecclesia, Educatio, Francomuratores.
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    Offline Matto

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    What is a Liberal?
    « Reply #2 on: September 23, 2013, 03:33:35 PM »
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  • I would say that a liberal is someone who thinks man is more important than God. Like in the Novus Ordo how they are always talking about the dignity of Man and the rights of man and they don't care at all about the dignity and rights of God.
    R.I.P.
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    Offline Matthew

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    What is a Liberal?
    « Reply #3 on: September 23, 2013, 03:37:18 PM »
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  • Ok, so...

    My post about how men should move out and get established...exalts man above God how exactly...?  

    So God likes to see a man stay at home until he moves out the day after he gets married (or maybe not even then)? God prefers multi-generational households?

    I'm not seeing it.
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    Offline wallflower

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    What is a Liberal?
    « Reply #4 on: September 23, 2013, 03:42:30 PM »
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  • I am glad you are starting this thread and I hope it is fruitful. Not to be too bold but what you are going through now is what many have gone through before with that label. Sometimes it's warranted and we should always be open to eradicating liberalism from our thoughts and actions. However, many times it has boiled down to "you don't agree with me" or "you don't agree with me enough," therefore you are liberal. It becomes a juvenile name-calling. I would be interested to see a thoughtful discussion on true liberalism by the more learned posters.


    Offline Matto

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    What is a Liberal?
    « Reply #5 on: September 23, 2013, 03:46:38 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Ok, so...

    My post about how men should move out and get established...exalts man above God how exactly...?  

    So God likes to see a man stay at home until he moves out the day after he gets married (or maybe not even then)? God prefers multi-generational households?

    I'm not seeing it.

    I think God prefers the families to stay together. Multi-generational households would be best but if not possible then even after marriage the children should find a house close by the parents so they can be together and take care of each other.

    Going out to be independent is neglectful of your parents and your siblings who now that you are older you should be helping to take care of.

    I understand that this is not always possible because of the economy, but I think it is ideal for the families to stay close together always instead of spreading out.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline InfiniteFaith

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    What is a Liberal?
    « Reply #6 on: September 23, 2013, 03:48:09 PM »
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  • This is a really good question. I have thought about this before.

    I think that a liberal is someone who views the world as being uncertain and that there is not much truth that we know of. They show this in their actions and words.

    A liberal is someone who believes in things without any evidence. Basically someone who believes in what they hear in the media, and so forth, without holding any constructive criticism/skepticism.

    A liberal is someone who makes decisions based on feeling rather than logic.

    A liberal is someone who believes in what is easier to believe then rejects the truth when it crosses their path because it goes against their agenda.

    A liberal is someone who will lie in order to advance an agenda. They think that is ok to lie because, in their minds, their agenda is what is right.

    Liberals are generally anti religionist because they believe that religion causes war, and we are better off without religion.

    A liberal believes in the idea that society needs to progress past the way things used to be. In their minds, this is for the betterment of society. Generally what these "progressive" ideals lead to is bad things. They just don't realize it nor do they want to.

    A liberal is, a lot of times, a hypocrite. They accuse you of things that they are guilty of themselves. When they accuse you of something, it is generally them the ones who are doing it.

    A liberal is stubborn,  and does not live by the truth. They make a lot of false accusations.

    *Note: All of these or some of these may apply to liberals. This is not to say that all liberals hold all of these qualities.


    Offline InfiniteFaith

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    What is a Liberal?
    « Reply #7 on: September 23, 2013, 04:05:16 PM »
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  • Also, a liberal blames personal issues on psychological disorders and such. Instead of realizing that someone may be dealing with negative thoughts because they are not in communion with God.

    A liberal prefers equality over freedom. They would much rather take away freedom in order for "equality" to exist. The reality is, when they take away freedoms it does not correct the problem. Furthermore, a liberal supports wicked people being on the same level in society as good people. They empathize way too much when wicked people are on the bottom.

    A liberal is someone who, even though they say they are for equality, are really not. Liberals tend to play favorites based on how much they like people. They would rather see the people they like rise up the ladder than the people who work the hardest and are more deserving.





    Offline Matthew

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    What is a Liberal?
    « Reply #8 on: September 23, 2013, 04:11:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: wallflower
    I am glad you are starting this thread and I hope it is fruitful. Not to be too bold but what you are going through now is what many have gone through before with that label. Sometimes it's warranted and we should always be open to eradicating liberalism from our thoughts and actions.


    Oh yes, I understand that Liberalism is in the air we breathe here in America, and like fish swimming in an ink-filled pond it's impossible to stay totally pure from it.

    However, that's not what people are talking about when they throw around the epithet "liberal".

    Quote from: wallflower
    However, many times it has boiled down to "you don't agree with me" or "you don't agree with me enough," therefore you are liberal. It becomes a juvenile name-calling.


    Exactly!

    I think it would be useful to learn exactly what Liberalism is, so we can all use the term appropriately, rather than like a Catholic cuss word.
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    Offline MaterDominici

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    What is a Liberal?
    « Reply #9 on: September 23, 2013, 04:15:17 PM »
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  • A whole book about it! Free!

    (You don't have to read it all, here's "What Liberalism Is".)

    http://www.liberalismisasin.com/chapter2.htm
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline Timothy

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    What is a Liberal?
    « Reply #10 on: September 23, 2013, 06:20:42 PM »
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  • Speaking strictly from a political point of view, "Liberal" can mean one of three things, depending on where you are in the world.

    In Europe, and other democracies other than the United States, "Liberal" often refers to a person or group that favors little government intervention in the economy, low taxes, strong personal liberties, and a generally secular society, but usually only to the point of being ambivalent to religion.  They often fall in the center of the political spectrum with Social Democrats and Socialists to the left (who favor strong government regulation of the economy, high taxes, and secularism to the point of being hostile to religion) and Conservatives and Christian Democrats to the right (whose political positions vary greatly depending on the country).  A European "Liberal" can be equated with a "Libertarian" in the United States.

    In the United States, "Liberal" basically means the same thing that "Social Democrat" or "Socialist" means in Europe.  They are opposed, on a large scale, only by American-style Conservatism.

    In the rest of the world, "Liberal" usually refers to a person or group that is pro-democracy and (especially in the Middle East) pro-secularist.


    Offline Timothy

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    What is a Liberal?
    « Reply #11 on: September 23, 2013, 06:39:11 PM »
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  • In the 18th and 19th Century Europe, liberalism was one of the two major political forces, the other being conservatism.  Liberals typically favored democracy, republicanism, secularism, and social equality.

    In Europe, liberals were replaced as the main political force of the left in the 20th Century by Socialists.

    Offline Graham

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    What is a Liberal?
    « Reply #12 on: September 23, 2013, 07:01:38 PM »
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  • What I have always understood by liberalism (since I began to move towards Catholicism) is the ideology of liberty of conscience.

    That liberalism is such a large error explains why its use and meaning sometimes appear diffuse.

    For instance, individualism is a species of liberalism. Encouraging single young men to move away from home as soon as possible is a policy which derives from and promote individualism, rather than that closeness and interdependence of family members across multiple generations which has typically characterised the natural household; calling it liberal is no less correct than calling it individualistic, just less accurate. To be clear, I'm talking about encouraging this as a general policy and a builder of manhood, not about it occuring in unusual circuмstances. And I'm not accusing Matthew of sin, since to me his idea was simply tainted with liberalism, rather than being outright liberal. But Matthew very rightly retracted and modified his initial position.

    Another defining feature is the confusion of tolerance with charity, such that tolerance effectively becomes the greatest Christian virtue. People who exhibit this tendency in practice can rightly be called liberals, and while often posing as doctrinally staunch traditionalists are really the enablers of more radical liberalism. Thank you MaterDominici for linking to Liberalism is a Sin, and if anyone wishes, refer to chapter 19.



    Offline InfiniteFaith

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    What is a Liberal?
    « Reply #13 on: September 23, 2013, 07:15:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Graham
    What I have always understood by liberalism (since I began to move towards Catholicism) is the ideology of liberty of conscience.

    That liberalism is such a large error explains why its use and meaning sometimes appear diffuse.

    For instance, individualism is a species of liberalism. Encouraging single young men to move away from home as soon as possible is a policy which derives from and promote individualism, rather than that closeness and interdependence of family members across multiple generations which has typically characterised the natural household; calling it liberal is no less correct than calling it individualistic, just less accurate. To be clear, I'm talking about encouraging this as a general policy and a builder of manhood, not about it occuring in unusual circuмstances. And I'm not accusing Matthew of sin, since to me his idea was simply tainted with liberalism, rather than being outright liberal. But Matthew very rightly retracted and modified his initial position.

    Another defining feature is the confusion of tolerance with charity, such that tolerance effectively becomes the greatest Christian virtue. People who exhibit this tendency in practice can rightly be called liberals, and while often posing as doctrinally staunch traditionalists are really the enablers of more radical liberalism. Thank you MaterDominici for linking to Liberalism is a Sin, and if anyone wishes, refer to chapter 19.




    I read some of what Chapter 19 was talking about. Is this source official dogma? Or is it an opinion of another Catholic?

    Chapter 19 talks about correcting someone (crossing them) if they are in the wrong, and how this, if done correctly, is charitable. While I can see that if a neighbor of mine, who is outside of my family, is about to commit a mortal sin...it is my obligation to bring that to his/her attention. But Chapter 19 goes as far as punishing your neighbor for doing something wrong. I'm not sold on this.
    To whom are we subject to such punishment? Every neighbor of ours? It is my opinion that it is nobody's duty or responsibility (including other Catholics) to punish me for doing something wrong. Especially if it is someone who holds no authority over me, and is simply just my neighbor. But thats just me. Perhaps I am individualistic.

    To me, it is not their place. Perhaps I'm in the wrong though.

    Offline Graham

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    What is a Liberal?
    « Reply #14 on: September 23, 2013, 07:30:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    I read some of what Chapter 19 was talking about. Is this source official dogma? Or is it an opinion of another Catholic?


    It is derived strictly from the two great commandments.

    Quote from: InfiniteFaith
    Chapter 19 talks about correcting someone (crossing them) if they are in the wrong, and how this, if done correctly, is charitable. While I can see that if a neighbor of mine, who is outside of my family, is about to commit a mortal sin...it is my obligation to bring that to his/her attention. But Chapter 19 goes as far as punishing your neighbor for doing something wrong. I'm not sold on this.


    When done for love of the neighbour's soul, it is charity. According to the Baltimore Catechism, the first spiritual work of mercy is to admonish the sinner, the second is to instruct the ignorant.

    Quote from: Liberalism is a Sin
    It is: Sovereign Catholic inflexibility is sovereign Catholic charity. This charity is practiced in relation to our neighbor when in his own interest, he is crossed, humiliated and chastised. it is practiced in relation to a third party, when he is defended from the unjust aggression of another, as when he is protected from the contagion of error by unmasking its authors and abettors and showing them in their true light as iniquitous and pervert, by holding them up to the contempt, horror and execration of all. It is practiced in relation to God when, for His glory and in His service, it becomes necessary to silence all human considerations, to trample under foot all human (106) respect, to sacrifice all human interests, and even life itself to attain this highest of all ends. All this is Catholic inflexibility and inflexible Catholicity in the practice of that pure love which constitutes sovereign charity.


    This kind of charity is difficult to practise.

    Quote from: 1 Corinthians 13:4-7
    Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.


    The thing is to purify our intentions so as to be capable of it.