Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Poll

Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?

He was a traitor who tried to kill a great German leader.
7 (31.8%)
He was a Catholic hero who tried to save his country from the nαzιs.
10 (45.5%)
The attempted tyrranicide was justified.
4 (18.2%)
I don't know or care about WWII history.
1 (4.5%)

Total Members Voted: 15

Voting closed: November 12, 2017, 09:03:04 PM

Author Topic: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?  (Read 20075 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Incredulous

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9314
  • Reputation: +9123/-872
  • Gender: Male
Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
« Reply #75 on: November 08, 2017, 12:55:41 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What did you think of the video?


    The Condit video is equivalent to a college graduate history course.

    Once you sit through and comprehend the lecture, the leagues of paper written about the Third Reich, go up in smoke.

    Condit's Hitler argument jives with the independent Fatima prophecy and Red Symphony interview concerning the start of WWII.

    By January 1938, Hitler was considered a "Bonapartist" or rogue, by the Rothschild power elite.

    He had independently printed state money and this was a very dangerous act, for the tribe, because other nations could easily duplicate Hitler's program.  Of course, the Rothschilds have admitted, the basis of their power comes from their control of a nation's money.

    Hitler and the German nation had to be crushed.  This was just a continuation of the zionist war declared on Germany by world jewery  in 1933.

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12120
    • Reputation: +7648/-2331
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #76 on: November 08, 2017, 12:59:39 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Why not type in "Why didn't Franco help Hitler" into your Internet search bar and then begin to sort it out!

    If the general view of WW2 and Hitler is a sham, as LeDeg contests, I highly doubt that google will be a good reference point for "true" history.  Too many filters; too much fake news to weed through.  I'm asking an honest question.  I wouldn't know what's fake or not.


    Offline JPaul

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3832
    • Reputation: +3723/-293
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #77 on: November 08, 2017, 03:39:45 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • A crisis was made up?
    I suppose the state of the Germany during the Weimar "Republic" was made up? The political intrigue between the Zionists and British in the Balfour agreement was made up? The declaration of war by the Jews against Germany in 1933 was made up? The central bankers comprised of mostly Jews was made up? The creation of the Bolsheviks/Marxists and their plan to dominate Europe by systematically deposing the monarchs was made up? That Hitler kicked the bankers out and imprisoned a Rothschild was made up? How much more can I present?
    JayneK will give the video credence, but refuses to read a book that is quite enlightening and rely upon hearsay? Disingenuous to say the least. Ciou
    You know Jayne, you stated that you will listen to Pius XI over me. Fine. I will listen to someone who wasn't shielded by his entourage that was filled with Marxist sympathizers, men like Leon Degrelle. A man who was there in the halls and trenches. A man who took action and started a Catholic movement in Belgium, defended his people and Europe against the Marxists and died attending only the TLM until he died in 1994, and defended Hitler till the day he died. Franco praised him as a hero and loyal son of the Church.  
    I will not defend a scoundrel like Pacelli, who sided with the menace that undermined the Church after the war. The side that were Marxists, Zionists, Masons and the real enemies of the Church.
    Put the kool aid down folks, and learn. You have been duped. Just like you were at one time with Vatican II, the New Mass, etc., etc., etc.
    This could not be more true or said as well. :applause:

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4161
    • Reputation: +2305/-1228
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #78 on: November 09, 2017, 06:58:39 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • JayneK will give the video credence, but refuses to read a book that is quite enlightening and rely upon hearsay? Disingenuous to say the least.
    You know Jayne, you stated that you will listen to Pius XI over me. Fine. I will listen to someone who wasn't shielded by his entourage that was filled with Marxist sympathizers, men like Leon Degrelle. A man who was there in the halls and trenches. A man who took action and started a Catholic movement in Belgium, defended his people and Europe against the Marxists and died attending only the TLM until he died in 1994, and defended Hitler till the day he died. Franco praised him as a hero and loyal son of the Church.  
    I will not defend a scoundrel like Pacelli, who sided with the menace that undermined the Church after the war. The side that were Marxists, Zionists, Masons and the real enemies of the Church.
    Put the kool aid down folks, and learn. You have been duped. Just like you were at one time with Vatican II, the New Mass, etc., etc., etc.
    It is not so much that I give the video credence as that it is more interesting to me because of the Zionism connection.  I have very strong anti-Zionist feelings so that piqued my interest. A book just about Hitler sounds pretty boring.

    I am having trouble seeing how your position could be Catholic.  I can follow both the Sedevacantist and "Recognize and Resist" arguments, but you don't seem to fit either of those.  Your view seems to be that you can ignore the pope whenever you feel like it.

    But perhaps I am missing something.  I don't see what Pacelli (aka Pius XII) has to do with whether one should believe an encyclical written by the previous pope, Pius XI.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12120
    • Reputation: +7648/-2331
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #79 on: November 09, 2017, 07:32:33 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Welp, I guess the Hitler apologists just want to give us a summary of their views and nothing substantial, even though we've asked.  I find it hard to believe though, that he was some bastion of catholicism and morality.  Where's the proof?  Franco's name has been dragged through the mud but there's plenty of evidence that he was a staunch catholic, and possibly a saint.  

    Hitler?  The only thing we can say about him is that he turned on his once-friends of the global elite.  Is this good?  Sure.  But that doesn't mean he was an exemplary catholic leader.  Was he better than the rest of the leaders at the time (i.e. Roosevelt, Churchill, Mussolini, etc)?  I can buy that.  But just because he changed his tune into a "germany first" chant from a "global govt" symphony doesn't mean he was God's gift to Germany.  It just means there was in-fighting in the different freemasonic factions...much like what is going on now, between Trump and the rest of the world (Trump is "old school" who wants a global govt with countries' sovereignty still intact, which differs from the way that the Bush's/Obama want it, which are weak "country states" and a powerful UN).  It's just a different way to skin the cat.

    This brings us back to the main question:  Was Stauffenberg wrong to try to kill Hitler?  Putting aside the morality of killing a tyrant...let's just assume that it's allowed (I'm not sure if it is; it would depend).  If it was allowed, and if you are a Hitler apologist, please show me the evidence that Stauffenberg was an evil man?  My evidence says he was a good catholic with intentions to restore catholicism to Germany.  You call him a traitor just because he was against Hitler.  I argue that even if Hitler was against the 'global elite' that doesn't mean he was a good, catholic leader.  Maybe he wanted his own version of tyranny, independent of the thumb of the rothchilds?    


    Offline klasG4e

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2307
    • Reputation: +1344/-235
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #80 on: November 09, 2017, 07:38:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • One could only imagine the heated discussions among Muslims debating among themselves as to whether the assassination (if one had actually occurred) of any one of some of our most recent presidents by a Muslim American military officer should be seen as making the assassin an American traitor or a Muslim hero; this in view, of course, of the tremendous death and destruction of all sorts America has brought to their lands.  (This is not to say, of course, that Christ is not the king of their nations whether He be recognized as such or not.)

    Even Catholics of those lands could very well have a heated debate among themselves over whether or not an assassination as mentioned above, but one carried out by a Catholic American military officer should be seen as making the assassin an American traitor or a Catholic hero.

    Offline JPaul

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3832
    • Reputation: +3723/-293
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #81 on: November 09, 2017, 09:12:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It has become apparent that no fruitful or rational discussion is possible on this and other like subjects as those who hold opposing opinions do not speak the same language and see concepts, ideologies, and moral and religious matters with the same divergence of apprehension.

    There is a great lack of scholarship and diligence in this generation and both neo-traditional and conciiar neo-catholics are infected almost in the same proportions as the mainstream.  Intellect and reason are given to man for discernment and apprehension of truth, and to let such faculties languish must be a sin in some unseen realm.




    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12120
    • Reputation: +7648/-2331
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #82 on: November 09, 2017, 09:13:32 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Your analogy is both good and poor.  Good in the sense that most American presidents in the past 100 years were awful and traitorous to america themselves, much like, I argue, was Hitler.  

    It is a bad analogy in the sense that Catholicism has never been part of America's govt (nor even its society, except due to sheer #s of Catholics which USED TO practice here).  And certainly, we didn't live through a few decades of a total loss of catholic culture, which had been part of Germany's culture for what, 14 centuries?  

    Maybe we're all asking the wrong question?  Maybe the question is not:  Was Stauffenberg a hero vs a traitor?

    Maybe the question is:  In light of Germany's loss of the monarchy and its catholic heritage teetering on the edge of a cliff, was Stauffenberg justified in trying restore the monarchy in an attempt to save catholic Germany?  

    or should he have done nothing and supported Hitler, letting Germany slip into gradual socialism and eventual irreligiousness (as did all of Europe), for by supporting Hitler, he would have staved off the atheistic and godless attacks of Russia/Stalin?

    Answer:  As a nobleman of Germany, who was born with a God-given duty to his people and who had grown up being part of the ruling of his country, I think Stauffenberg had a very direct responsibility to affect the govt of Germany towards Catholicism, no matter the cost.  (This assumes one is allowed to αssαssιnαtҽ a tryannical leader.  I haven't studied this moral question.)  It would have been easily to just sit on the sidelines, fulfill his military duty, and go home to his estate and spend his days with his young family and friends.  That would have been the easy choice!  The fact that he didn't do this, suggests (apart from the the evidence we have from his personal letters) that catholic duty was first and foremost on his mind.  

    The choice of Germany was much more nuanced than just Hitler vs Stalin.  Let's not forget Mussolini, Churchill etc.  Their negative influence on a future Germany can't be ruled out. 

    As many have pointed out, Hitler turned in his masters, which presupposes that his original masters were anything but good.  Who's to say that Hitler's "turn" was from bad to good?  I'm taking spiritually here.  Maybe he turned from bad to less bad?  Even if he turned from a satanic globalist to a Protestant, bible-loving ruler, he's still not catholic and such a change would NOT have been good for Germany.  

    So the choice is clear: Catholicism or bust.  It's easy to second guess now, 70 years later, and say if Hitler had still ruled, Germany would've been better off.  I say, would they have been?  I doubt it.  When a catholic country falls away from the Truth, in any direction, in any incremental fall, the results are disastrous.  The end does not justify the means.  One cannot support a mediocre ruler (Hitler) in order to avoid a godless one (Stalin).


    One last question....if Hitler was such a "rebel" against the global elites, how did he escape into Argentina?  Who let him live for so long?  The joos have long been involved in Argentina - are you saying Hitler was able to hide there without the globalists knowing?  No way!  More likely, Hitler was a pawn in a global scheme to destroy Germany, much like Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin were pawns.  The real rulers are nameless and behind the scenes.  Hitler may have butted heads with them, but he fulfilled his purpose - Germany was destroyed economically, socially and religiously.  And Europe fell, post WW2, into socialism and irreligiousness because Germany was weak spiritually.  Mission accomplished.  


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12120
    • Reputation: +7648/-2331
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #83 on: November 09, 2017, 09:20:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    It has become apparent that no fruitful or rational discussion is possible on this and other like subjects as those who hold opposing opinions do not speak the same language and see concepts, ideologies, and moral and religious matters with the same divergence of apprehension.

    There is a great lack of scholarship and diligence in this generation and both neo-traditional and conciiar neo-catholics are infected almost in the same proportions as the mainstream.  Intellect and reason are given to man for discernment and apprehension of truth, and to let such faculties languish must be a sin in some unseen realm.
    Ive asked you and others for more specifics.  I'm open to listening.  The above is just a philosophic generalization.  You can't say we're poor thinkers without presenting the evidence.  

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12120
    • Reputation: +7648/-2331
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #84 on: November 09, 2017, 09:27:14 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • P.s.  I've talked to a friend who has read a lot of Irving (and is a big fan...has traveled to hear him speak) but he doesn't think Hitler was some savior of Germany, in the catholic sense.  Was he "over the top" vilified and "scape-goat'ed" by the joos for political and Israeli reasons?  That's obvious.  But that doesn't mean he was a good ruler for Germany.  

    Offline JPaul

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3832
    • Reputation: +3723/-293
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #85 on: November 09, 2017, 09:35:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Ive asked you and others for more specifics.  I'm open to listening.  The above is just a philosophic generalization.  You can't say we're poor thinkers without presenting the evidence.  
    The evidence is in your statements and conclusions. You do not need me to help, you are doing fine on your own.


    Offline JPaul

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3832
    • Reputation: +3723/-293
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #86 on: November 09, 2017, 10:01:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • P.s.  I've talked to a friend who has read a lot of Irving (and is a big fan...has traveled to hear him speak) but he doesn't think Hitler was some savior of Germany, in the catholic sense.  Was he "over the top" vilified and "scape-goat'ed" by the joos for political and Israeli reasons?  That's obvious.  But that doesn't mean he was a good ruler for Germany.  
    Irving is but a small part of the puzzle. It takes a lot of effort and a search through many sources to come to an approximation of the true histories which have been so altered and suppressed for such a long time.
    This area is full of odd and sometimes malicious speculations and fabrications like Hitler was a Zionist, or the rothschilds financed him. These theorys are floated in the same circles as the Jesuits are Jews and the Vatican with them controls the world and the United Nations.
    Hitler was not a religious leader, he was a political leader and in three years he accomplished what he said he wanted to do. And Germany and the Germans as a whole benefitted greatly. That is all docuмented fact but more importantly he proclaimed that the Bolshevik communist were the greatest danger facing Europe and the world, just as our Lady, a religious icon, did. No one believed him either, and so the scourge is upon us now.

    Offline klasG4e

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2307
    • Reputation: +1344/-235
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #87 on: November 09, 2017, 11:01:08 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • If Hitler didn't exist -- as the saying goes -- the Tribe would have had to invent him.  But actually they did invent him, the false image that is.  They invented the false image of him.  In other words they lied and continue lying.  Hitler was obviously no saint, but he just as surely was not the individual the тαℓмυdic lying Jooos would have us believe he was, no more so than the false image the тαℓмυd would have us believe the Saviour was.

    Offline DZ PLEASE

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2928
    • Reputation: +741/-787
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #88 on: November 09, 2017, 11:10:24 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Regardless, these repeated comparisons to holy and most holy persons is increasingly disturbing.

    Also, back to basics; in gauging morality, motive and means matter.

    The right thing the wrong way, and/or for the wrong motives, is the wrong thing.

    Of course, the wrong thing is just wrong.

    War is a curse and, typically, a scam.

    Even "Iusus Bellae", is hardly an ideal situation.

    What can one steal from a thief?

    How can one betray one who betrays God?

    If "An unjust law, is no law at all" (S. Augustine, possibly f/ Plato or Aristotle) then what makes for lawful authority, and how is it lost?

    Just because I have the crown, that doesn't make me king.

    Offline LeDeg

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 778
    • Reputation: +535/-135
    • Gender: Male
    • I am responsible only to God and history.
    Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
    « Reply #89 on: November 09, 2017, 11:37:32 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • It is not so much that I give the video credence as that it is more interesting to me because of the Zionism connection.  I have very strong anti-Zionist feelings so that piqued my interest. A book just about Hitler sounds pretty boring.

    The book contains information that pertains precisely to that subject. 

    I am having trouble seeing how your position could be Catholic.  I can follow both the Sedevacantist and "Recognize and Resist" arguments, but you don't seem to fit either of those.  Your view seems to be that you can ignore the pope whenever you feel like it.

    This analysis is so laughable I can hardly incline myself to respond. I can ignore the pope whenever I want? What do you think R&R is?

    But perhaps I am missing something.  I don't see what Pacelli (aka Pius XII) has to do with whether one should believe an encyclical written by the previous pope, Pius XI.

    If you could bother to read the link I posted to what I have written in other threads, this would be obvious. Since Pius XI did not know German, since Pius XII was the papal nuncio to Germany and knew the language, and since Cardinal Siri had stated that the encyclical had been altered, how do you think that squares with the fact that Pius XI played a key role in getting Hitler elected in '33 and helping the NSDAP gain seats in the Reichstag? How does Pius XI support Hitler in gaining power, and then do an about face when nothing had come to light that was any different in tone to what the NSDAP stood on politically and socially between the time Hitler wrote Mein Kampf and 1938? There can only be one logical answer. And keep in mind, Rampolla was a mentor to Pacelli, a known Mason that had an enormous influence on the shaping of Pacelli's political views.  
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle