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Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: Incredulous on November 05, 2017, 09:03:04 PM

Title: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Incredulous on November 05, 2017, 09:03:04 PM



Was the Catholic, Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg, a national traitor
or an international Catholic hero?

(http://www.dw.com/image/1270909_4.jpg)

In the Catholic Senus Fidelium video series, they claim Colonel van Stauffenberg asked his Bishop if he would endanger his soul if he αssαssιnαtҽd Hitler?  

The Bishop stated that due to the potential continued loss of life from the nαzι regime, the tyrranicide was justified.
He received the Bishop's blessing.

Hitler/German revisionist videos are in vogue, but it seems they're purposely overlooking the truth about the nαzι regime?


Background article below:

Sunday, 04 January 2009
Valkyrie: The Real Col. von StauffenbergWritten by  Selwyn Duke, New American magazine


(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/1a/de/23/1ade232e08f5ea2b17b2474a1a970f50--von-stauffenberg-operation-valkyrie.jpg)

On a sultry July day in 1944, a man walks into the "Wolf's Lair" carrying a briefcase. He is initiating a bold plot, one that aims to αssαssιnαtҽ one of the world's most ruthless and powerful men, Adolf Hitler, and topple the whole of his nαzι government. Integral to this ambitious coup is what lies in his briefcase, a bomb.  It is set to detonate ... the wheels are in motion. It is only a matter of time now.


The man was Claus Philipp Maria Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg, the driving force behind what became known as the July 20 plot and the main character in Valkyrie, the recently released movie about the event. The film seeks to acquaint the audience with this hero and the conspiracy of which he was part, yet it depicts the machinations better than the man. 


And this is a shame, because quite a man he was.
Claus von Stauffenberg was born of aristocratic stock in his family's castle in what was then the Kingdom of Bavaria on November 15, 1907. He was the youngest of three brothers, and his Roman Catholic family was one of the oldest and most distinguished in southern Germany. Claus was a gifted boy and excelled in both academics and athletics. He gravitated toward literature, becoming a lover of poetry, and he learned to speak fluent Russian, French, and English, and was also semi-fluent in Greek and Latin. His equestrian skills won him a place on the German Olympic team. Nevertheless, he chose a military career, joined a cavalry regiment (horses were relied upon for many transportation duties even during WWII) in 1926 and four years later was commissioned a second lieutenant. In 1933, he married Nina Freiin von Lerchenfeld, and they ultimately would have five children together.


That same year Hitler rose to power in Germany. But von Stauffenberg would not become a nαzι and early on expressed misgivings about the regime, feelings that would become more intense as the National Socialists increasingly displayed their true colors. For example, he was appalled by the November 1938 Kristallnacht (Night of the Broken Glass), when in a single night the nαzιs ransacked thousands of Jєωιѕн businesses and homes. He considered Kristallnacht to be a stain upon Germany. In fact, owing to this atrocity and many others, that year he became completely disillusioned with the nαzιs. And he wasn't alone in his feelings.


Von Stauffenberg found kindred spirits in the German resistance movement, which, although comprising small autonomous groups, existed throughout the nαzι reign (1933-1945). This is not to say he was as yet an official member of the resistance — the most significant part of which was found in his milieu, the military — but he did have contact with some of its members and was well-aware that cօռspιʀαcιҽs to overthrow the regime existed. It was at this point that he started pondering effective ways to launch a coup. This included entertaining thoughts about assassinating Hitler.
The next year von Stauffenberg participated in the invasion of Poland, and then later in the Battle of France and Operation Barbarossa, the invasion of the Soviet Union. Witnessing more nαzι atrocities during these campaigns, his resolve to topple the regime stiffened. Then came a fateful year that would mark a turning point in his life: 1943.


It is this year that von Stauffenberg is transferred to Tunisia to fight in General Erwin Rommel's Afrika Korps, and it is there, on April 7, that he is severely wounded during an Allied air offensive.  Coming close to death, von Stauffenberg ultimately survives and recuperates quickly, but shrapnel has extracted its price: he loses his left eye, right hand, and fourth and fifth fingers on his left hand. But his convalescence in a Munich hospital gives him much time to think, and during this period his resolve is cemented: he decides to thoroughly devote himself to the task of destroying Hitler and his henchmen. Consequently, while he could have retired as a decorated officer, he instead informs his superiors that he intends to resume his duties come autumn.


Insofar as his conspiracy aims go, his wounds are a godsend as much as a cross. The imposing six-foot-three von Stauffenberg, already a lieutenant-colonel, is now a legendary figure. And by September 1943 he is stationed in the General Army Office in the Bendlerblock military building in Berlin and appointed as chief-of-staff to General Friedrich Olbricht, a fellow conspirator. Now von Stauffenberg has the opportunity to breathe new life into a disheartened resistance and becomes its heart and soul, its animating force.
Then, on July 1, 1944, von Stauffenberg is promoted to full colonel and appointed chief-of-staff to the Reserve Army commanding general, Friedrich Fromm, a man who is aware of the conspiracy and lukewarm toward it (the film portrays him as hostile to it). This is a stroke of luck for the conspirators, as von Stauffenberg, who once exclaimed to a colleague, "Is there no officer over there in the Führer's headquarters capable of shooting that beast?!" will now have his chance. His new position affords him the opportunity to meet Hitler face-to-face.
But killing the beast is not enough. The conspirators know that unless the whole nαzι hierarchy can be neutralized in one fell swoop, their efforts will be in vain — another beast will just take Hitler's place.


It is in presenting the logistics of the operation that the film Valkyrie does its best job, and it is in limiting itself to this that we find its greatest defect: a profound lack of character development.  Germans may be known for stoicism, but the movie reduces the principals almost to automatons. Tom Cruise portrays von Stauffenberg as having the personality of the Terminator — and not the quite lovable robot in T-2 but the instrument of death in the original. The actor seems to spend the entire film wearing the same expression, a stone-faced scowl; I can honestly say it's the only look I remember on his face. Is this the von Stauffenberg whose eldest son, Berthold, professed love for and called "our always-cheerful father"? Is this the man who, after suffering those horrific injuries that robbed him of most of his digits, quipped to friends that he had never really known what to do with so many fingers while he still had all of them anyway? I think not. Even when the film's von Stauffenberg meets Hitler for the purposes of coaxing the Fuhrer into signing revised Operation Valkyrie implementation plans that would serve the conspirators' ends, he sports the same looks-could-kill countenance, staring the leader down with V2 rockets firing from his one remaining eye.  No guten tag upon meeting, no danke upon departing, no signs of respect. Is this realistic?  OK, Mr. Singer (director Bryan Singer), von Stauffenberg really, really, really hates Adolf Hitler. We got that. But don't you think that he was at least a little bit clever? Don't you think that since getting the leader to sign the altered plans was integral to the coup that maybe, just perhaps, he might have decided to be more Oscar Schindler than Charles Manson?


Even more significantly, little is said about von Stauffenberg's deepest motivations. What brought a career army officer to the point at which he was willing to undertake such a radical act? What were his moral conflicts and struggles with conscience? What was the evolution in his thinking?  Perhaps this is thought obvious; I mean, who wouldn't want to kill the man now regarded as the Devil incarnate? Yet this man was one of the few who tried and in doing so risked death for himself and his family. Something tells me his was a conscience worth exploring.


This oversight seems even more egregious when considering that von Stauffenberg was driven by some very strong religious convictions, a motivation hinted at with only the vaguest symbolism in the movie. Is this because secular audiences wouldn't cotton to religious content? Or is it because secular creators believe such convictions to be more incidental than instrumental? Whatever the case, it's obvious that faith provided the moral capital to commit what von Stauffenberg called "high treason," to transcend the bounds of fear and fidelity.


Von Stauffenberg's religiosity made itself apparent in many ways. For example, he became intimately connected with the "Kreisau Circle," a religious-philosophical dissident group that aimed to create a future Germany based on the development of small communities and Christian values. The group was led by von Stauffenberg's cousin Count Helmuth James von Moltke and was deeply involved in the July 20 plot. But we needn't divine the existence of his religious motivations based on association, as he expressed them quite clearly. 


As Nigel Jones writes in his piece "Claus von Stauffenberg — The Man Who Tried to Kill Hitler (http://www.historynet.com/claus-von-stauffenberg.htm)":
The decision to topple Hitler weighed heavily on Stauffenberg. Was it right, he asked a relative in mid-1943, to sacrifice the salvation of one's own soul if one might thereby save thousands of lives? He concluded that it was not only right, but imperative. Around that same time, he told several people, including Margarethe von Oven, a Replacement Army secretary who typed the orders he drafted, that he was consciously "committing high treason." He added that, faced with such an evil regime, he had had to choose between action and inaction, and as an active Christian there could only be one decision.


Yet the film allows religious motivations to be a casualty of war, either the war on Christianity or war-movie priorities or both. Thus is von Stauffenberg, the brave soldier, witty friend and father, philosopher, and faithful Catholic — a true man for all seasons — reduced to a mere instrument in the assassination plot, much like the bomb he carried. It's a defect that prevents the audience from forming the kind of emotional connection with the character that a more soulful treatment would engender.


So it is early July 1944, and von Stauffenberg is about to march into the history books. He and his compatriots have access to their target and a clever plan: Valkyrie.  "Operation Valkyrie" actually refers to an official German army operational plan created for the Reserve Army — the force for whose general von Stauffenberg is now chief-of-staff — and approved by Hitler himself. This army was originally intended as a force that could restore order in the event that Allied bombing or some other disruption causes civil unrest. But the conspirators had altered the plan so as to give the Reserve Army the authority to arrest the SS and nαzι leadership in the event of Hitler's assassination. The idea was to kill Hitler, cut communications, and then initiate Operation Valkyrie while claiming that a coup from within the nαzι Party had been launched, thereby tricking the Reserve Army into doing the conspirators' bidding. Then, once they had achieved control, they would install a new government.


Now, several assassination attempts had already failed (in total, there were 15 known attempts on Hitler's life). This was mainly because the nαzι leader changed his traveling timetable frequently to ensure that others would seldom know where he would be at a given time, although one failure was attributable to a bomb that was planted aboard his plane but didn't detonate. These disappointments are yet another reason why von Stauffenberg is intent upon doing the job himself. He will see it through personally.


The plan calls for von Stauffenberg to attend his war conferences with a briefcase containing two plastic explosives, which he will set with small pencil detonators that provide a 10 to 15 minute delay.  His first opportunity to implement Valkyrie comes on July 11 in Berchtesgaden, but because the conspirators believe it necessary to αssαssιnαtҽ high nαzι Party officials Hermann Goering and Heinrich Himmler as well and the latter isn't present, the mission is aborted. His second chance is on July 15 in Wolfsschanze, or Wolf's Lair, a German command post near Rastenburg in East Prussia. However, neither Goering nor Himmler is present; von Stauffenberg calls his compatriots and tells them that he will proceed regardless, but when he returns Hitler is gone. Then comes the day of July 20.


Von Stauffenberg is again attending a briefing in Rastenburg. He arrives with his fellow conspirator and adjutant Werner von Haeften and learns that, due to hot weather, the meeting will not take place in Hitler's stuffy reinforced bunker but in a wooden hut nearby. This presents a problem, as it will diminish the effectiveness of the bombs. For while the bunker would contain the energy of the blast, allowing it to kill through expansion, the hut will not. However, it is thought that even one bomb could do the job, and von Stauffenberg has two; he proceeds with the mission. So, making the excuse that he has to change his shirt, he enters a private bathroom to set the detonators. Unfortunately, von Stauffenberg finds himself short on time as the meeting has already begun and, hindered by his handicaps, is able to prime only one bomb. He then enters the conference room carrying his briefcase and places it under the wooden table around which Hitler and his officers had gathered. Then, after a few tense minutes, he quietly excuses himself, saying that he has to make a phone call. He hastily exits the structure.


Von Stauffenberg is about 100 yards from the hut. It is 12:42 p.m. . . . he hears a thunderous blast. This bomb was no dud.  Ursula Grosser Dixon describes the event in her piece "Long live our Sacred Germany":


Hitler was leaning across the table when General Heusinger concluded his report: "... and if the army group around Lake Peipus is not withdrawn immediately, there will be a catastrophe." At this precise moment the entire conference room was engulfed in a blinding flash of flame and a sound was heard like a roaring train. The heavy table rose into the air and landed in a corner, with splinters flying in all directions, lacerating and burning almost everyone.


Surveying the devastation, von Stauffenberg is sure that phase one of Valkyrie is a success. He then talks his way past the Wolf's Lair's checkpoints and boards his plane with von Haeften for the return flight to Berlin. He wants to get back to army headquarters posthaste and help direct the operation.


About two hours later at approximately 3 p.m., von Stauffenberg's plane lands in Rangsdorf near Berlin. But to his surprise, there is no car waiting for him. Something seems amiss — and something certainly is. The messages the Bendlerblock received about the assassination were either unclear or indicated that Hitler survived, making the conspirators hesitant to activate the Reserve Army. After all, they knew that if the Reserve Army's officers knew their Fuhrer was alive, the plot was doomed to failure. Von Stauffenberg is convinced that news of Hitler's survival is a bluff, however, and has his adjutant call the Bendlerblock to inspire his compatriots to act.


When von Stauffenberg arrives at the Bendlerblock around 4:30 p.m., he finds that the conspiracy is finally being put into effect. He aggressively takes control of the situation, orchestrating the coup, and hundreds of phone calls are made. The resistance starts to take control of some areas, SS men are arrested and Joseph Goebbels' Propaganda Ministry is surrounded by troops. But precious time has been lost and, therefore, proper measures not yet taken. The most significant oversight is that the resistance had not severed relevant communications, a failure that allows confirmation of Hitler's survival to be disseminated. This causes the less resolute among the conspirators to waver. Most notably, the lukewarm General Fromm, driven by self interest, switches sides and orders the arrest of the other Bendlerblock conspirators; instead, however, they take him into custody.


It is now 7 p.m., and the steadily deflating coup is still moving forward, but then there is a fateful moment. By this time Hitler has recovered enough to make phone calls, and he contacts Goebbels, who is in danger of arrest. Goebbels puts the commander of the troops surrounding his ministry, Major Otto Remer, on the phone with Hitler, who then orders Remer to crush the resistance. This spells the end of the coup.
At around 10 p.m., fighting erupts in the Bendlerblock between officers supporting the putsch and those opposing it, and von Stauffenberg is wounded in the shoulder during a brief gun battle. By 11 p.m., General Fromm has regained control, and, perhaps in an effort to conceal his involvement, takes immediate action against the plotters. At around midnight, he has von Stauffenberg, Olbricht, von Haeften, and an officer named Albrecht Mertz von Quirnheim executed by firing squad.


In the aftermath of the coup, many would feel Hitler's wrath. He orders that some conspirators be hanged like cattle, with piano wire from meat hooks, and many others are shot. In fact, Hitler uses the event as a pretext to purge the Reich of anyone who has drawn his suspicion and arrests about 7,000 people, of whom approximately 2,000 are executed. Among these victims are Stauffenberg's eldest brother Berthold and his cousin Caesar von Hofacker. Even the calculating General Fromm finds his ruse to no avail and in the end saves his life no more than his honor.  Additionally, many commit ѕυιcιdє, and many thousands are sent to cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρs. The resistance is no more.


The coup was a bit of a long shot from the get-go, but it was no ѕυιcιdє mission. In fact, if matters had unfolded in just a slightly different way, the outcome might have been far different.  First, if the war briefing in Rastenberg had been held in Hitler's bunker as planned, the detonation of one bomb might have sufficed. Then, if von Stauffenberg had left the second, unprimed bomb in his briefcase (he took it with him and discarded it), it might have exploded due to sympathetic detonation and provided the force necessary to kill Hitler. It's also said that an officer at the briefing accidentally knocked the briefcase over and, upon picking it up, moved it to the other side of a thick oak table leg, thereby shielding Hitler from the brunt of the blast. Did this make a difference? Perhaps. While Hitler suffered only minor injuries, the explosion did kill four and severely wound many others, so a different positioning of the charge might have slain the beast.  Then we have to wonder: would the conspirators have been able to carry the day if they had activated the Reserve Army immediately? A definitive answer will probably always elude us.


But a better question is whether success would have really made a difference. Was the coup attempt just an exercise in futility? After all, late in 1944, Germany was being bombarded and the Allies smelled victory. And after years of sacrificing blood and treasure in history's greatest conflict, they were in no mood for compromise. Thus, unconditional surrender, humiliation, and suffering were to be Germany's lot regardless. Yet we mustn't forget that, in the least, a successful coup would have meant the closure of the death camps, and more children, siblings, and parents could have been reunited at war's end.


Most of all, though, we should remember that if the coup's fate rested on practical considerations, it might never have been attempted. Its real animating force was not the phlegmatic cost-benefit analysis brass but men such as von Stauffenberg, those intrepid souls stuck between history and a hellacious place and serving something higher than themselves, higher than country, higher even than family.


We are told that this man for all season's last words before being executed were "Long live our sacred Germany!" He saw his way clear to commit high treason to do right by Germany, and I suspect this is because while he loved her, he loved the sacred most of all.

Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: GottmitunsAlex on November 05, 2017, 09:59:00 PM
Seems he ended up doing that which he claimed to have despised. Planting a dirty bomb on several folks and making a break for it is not totally honorable. To call this an act of "Catholic" heroism is truly, remarkable.

But by and large the vast majority of Catholics serving in the Wehrmacht and the Waffen-SS (including volunteers) were quite loyal and in fact quite optimistic about being victorious over the ʝʊdɛօ-communists.

"The German Nation has a great duty to fulfill in the face of the Eternal Almighty. Abroad and at home the Fuehrer has thanked God that his plea for His blessing for our good and just cause was expressed more than once, and was understood. Certainly, other nations opposed to us pray to God and beg Him to grant them victory. God is, in the same manner, Father of all nations, but He is not, in the same manner, arbiter of justice and injustice, of honesty and mendacity. From reports of field chaplains who were with you on all fronts during the past year, I was able to observe how naturally and joyfully you participated in religious services and received the sacraments, not only immediately before battle, but also in the many months when the fronts were quiet. Your Christian faith was everywhere where you, as soldiers, often had to achieve the superhuman, and was a valuable part of your spiritual and moral equipment." -1940,  +Franz Julius Rarkowski, S.M., Field Bishop of the German Army
There were 560 Catholic military chaplains in nαzι Germany at the outbreak of Wold War II.
(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/93/80/ca/9380ca15b4f4c706602aabf61b8d57c6--franz-military.jpg)
(http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_04_2010/post-1222-127047296474.jpg)
(http://www.catholicarrogance.org/+Artwork/Catholic_liberalism/CardinalBertram.jpg)
(http://ww2gravestone.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/degrelle-y-la-iglesia-cat%C3%B3lica-300x199.jpg)
You may not be seeing the real Catholic heroes the German armed forces (along with its volunteers) had to offer.
(Dirty bombing your own superiors and fellow soldiers does not have any heroic or redeeming qualities.)




Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: GottmitunsAlex on November 05, 2017, 10:18:20 PM
(https://preview.ibb.co/h0RZqw/Whats.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fTr0Vw)
Feldbischof  Bishop Franz Justus Rarkowski, S.M.   (I erroneously typed Julius instead of Justus in my previous post)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nHZLVw/WhatsM.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ivEb3G)


Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 06, 2017, 08:12:02 AM
http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html (http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html)

MIT BRENNENDER SORGE
Quote

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI
ON THE CHURCH AND THE GERMAN REICH
TO THE VENERABLE BRETHREN
THE ARCHBISHOPS AND BISHOPS OF GERMANY AND OTHER ORDINARIES
IN PEACE AND COMMUNION WITH THE APOSTOLIC SEE.



Venerable Brethren, Greetings, and Apostolic Blessing.
It is with deep anxiety and growing surprise that We have long been following the painful trials of the Church and the increasing vexations which afflict those who have remained loyal in heart and action in the midst of a people that once received from St. Boniface the bright message and the Gospel of Christ and God's Kingdom.
2. And what the representatives of the venerable episcopate, who visited Us in Our sick room, had to tell Us, in truth and duty bound, has not modified Our feelings. To consoling and edifying information on the stand the Faithful are making for their Faith, they considered themselves bound, in spite of efforts to judge with moderation and in spite of their own patriotic love, to add reports of things hard and unpleasant. After hearing their account, We could, in grateful acknowledgment to God, exclaim with the Apostle of love: "I have no greater grace than this, to hear that my children walk in truth" (John iii. 4). But the frankness indifferent in Our Apostolic charge and the determination to place before the Christian world the truth in all its reality, prompt Us to add: "Our pastoral heart knows no deeper pain, no disappointment more bitter, than to learn that many are straying from the path of truth."
3. When, in 1933, We consented, Venerable Brethren, to open negotiations for a concordat, which the Reich Government proposed on the basis of a scheme of several years' standing; and when, to your unanimous satisfaction, We concluded the negotiations by a solemn treaty, We were prompted by the desire, as it behooved Us, to secure for Germany the freedom of the Church's beneficent mission and the salvation of the souls in her care, as well as by the sincere wish to render the German people a service essential for its peaceful development and prosperity. Hence, despite many and grave misgivings, We then decided not to withhold Our consent for We wished to spare the Faithful of Germany, as far as it was humanly possible, the trials and difficulties they would have had to face, given the circuмstances, had the negotiations fallen through. It was by acts that We wished to make it plain, Christ's interests being Our sole object, that the pacific and maternal hand of the Church would be extended to anyone who did not actually refuse it.
4. If, then, the tree of peace, which we planted on German soil with the purest intention, has not brought forth the fruit, which in the interest of your people, We had fondly hoped, no one in the world who has eyes to see and ears to hear will be able to lay the blame on the Church and on her Head. The experiences of these last years have fixed responsibilities and laid bare intrigues, which from the outset only aimed at a war of extermination. In the furrows, where We tried to sow the seed of a sincere peace, other men - the "enemy" of Holy Scripture - oversowed the cockle of distrust, unrest, hatred, defamation, of a determined hostility overt or veiled, fed from many sources and wielding many tools, against Christ and His Church. They, and they alone with their accomplices, silent or vociferous, are today responsible, should the storm of religious war, instead of the rainbow of peace, blacken the German skies.
5. We have never ceased, Venerable Brethren, to represent to the responsible rulers of your country's destiny, the consequences which would inevitably follow the protection and even the favor, extended to such a policy. We have done everything in Our power to defend the sacred pledge of the given word of honor against theories and practices, which it officially endorsed, would wreck every faith in treaties and make every signature worthless. Should the day ever come to place before the world the account of Our efforts, every honest mind will see on which side are to be found the promoters of peace, and on which side its disturbers. Whoever had left in his soul an atom of love for truth, and in his heart a shadow of a sense of justice, must admit that, in the course of these anxious and trying years following upon the conclusion of the concordat, every one of Our words, every one of Our acts, has been inspired by the binding law of treaties. At the same time, anyone must acknowledge, not without surprise and reprobation, how the other contracting party emasculated the terms of the treaty, distorted their meaning, and eventually considered its more or less official violation as a normal policy. The moderation We showed in spite of all this was not inspired by motives of worldly interest, still less by unwarranted weakness, but merely by Our anxiety not to draw out the wheat with the cockle; not to pronounce open judgment, before the public was ready to see its force; not to impeach other people's honesty, before the evidence of events should have torn the mask off the systematic hostility leveled at the Church. Even now that a campaign against the confessional schools, which are guaranteed by the concordat, and the destruction of free election, where Catholics have a right to their children's Catholic education, afford evidence, in a matter so essential to the life of the Church, of the extreme gravity of the situation and the anxiety of every Christian conscience; even now Our responsibility for Christian souls induces Us not to overlook the last possibilities, however slight, of a return to fidelity to treaties, and to any arrangement that may be acceptable to the episcopate. We shall continue without failing, to stand before the rulers of your people as the defender of violated rights, and in obedience to Our Conscience and Our pastoral mission, whether We be successful or not, to oppose the policy which seeks, by open or secret means, to strangle rights guaranteed by a treaty.
6. Different, however, Venerable Brethren, is the purpose of this letter. As you affectionately visited Us in Our illness, so also We turn to you, and through you, the German Catholics, who, like all suffering and afflicted children, are nearer to their Father's heart. At a time when your faith, like gold, is being tested in the fire of tribulation and persecution, when your religious freedom is beset on all sides, when the lack of religious teaching and of normal defense is heavily weighing on you, you have every right to words of truth and spiritual comfort from him whose first predecessor heard these words from the Lord: "I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not: and thou being once converted, confirm thy brethren" (Lukexxii. 32).
7. Take care, Venerable Brethren, that above all, faith in God, the first and irreplaceable foundation of all religion, be preserved in Germany pure and unstained. The believer in God is not he who utters the name in his speech, but he for whom this sacred word stands for a true and worthy concept of the Divinity. Whoever identifies, by pantheistic confusion, God and the universe, by either lowering God to the dimensions of the world, or raising the world to the dimensions of God, is not a believer in God. Whoever follows that so-called pre-Christian Germanic conception of substituting a dark and impersonal destiny for the personal God, denies thereby the Wisdom and Providence of God who "Reacheth from end to end mightily, and ordereth all things sweetly" (Wisdom viii. 1). Neither is he a believer in God.
8. Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community - however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds.
9. Beware, Venerable Brethren, of that growing abuse, in speech as in writing, of the name of God as though it were a meaningless label, to be affixed to any creation, more or less arbitrary, of human speculation. Use your influence on the Faithful, that they refuse to yield to this aberration. Our God is the Personal God, supernatural, omnipotent, infinitely perfect, one in the Trinity of Persons, tri-personal in the unity of divine essence, the Creator of all existence. Lord, King and ultimate Consummator of the history of the world, who will not, and cannot, tolerate a rival God by His side.
10. This God, this Sovereign Master, has issued commandments whose value is independent of time and space, country and race. As God's sun shines on every human face so His law knows neither privilege nor exception. Rulers and subjects, crowned and uncrowned, rich and poor are equally subject to His word. From the fullness of the Creators' right there naturally arises the fullness of His right to be obeyed by individuals and communities, whoever they are. This obedience permeates all branches of activity in which moral values claim harmony with the law of God, and pervades all integration of the ever-changing laws of man into the immutable laws of God.
11. None but superficial minds could stumble into concepts of a national God, of a national religion; or attempt to lock within the frontiers of a single people, within the narrow limits of a single race, God, the Creator of the universe, King and Legislator of all nations before whose immensity they are "as a drop of a bucket" (Isaiah xI, 15).
12. The Bishops of the Church of Christ, "ordained in the things that appertain to God (Heb. v, 1) must watch that pernicious errors of this sort, and consequent practices more pernicious still, shall not gain a footing among their flock. It is part of their sacred obligations to do whatever is in their power to enforce respect for, and obedience to, the commandments of God, as these are the necessary foundation of all private life and public morality; to see that the rights of His Divine Majesty, His name and His word be not profaned; to put a stop to the blasphemies, which, in words and pictures, are multiplying like the sands of the desert; to encounter the obstinacy and provocations of those who deny, despise and hate God, by the never-failing reparatory prayers of the Faithful, hourly rising like incense to the All-Highest and staying His vengeance.
13. We thank you, Venerable Brethren, your priests and Faithful, who have persisted in their Christian duty and in the defense of God's rights in the teeth of an aggressive paganism. Our gratitude, warmer still and admiring, goes out to those who, in fulfillment of their duty, have been deemed worthy of sacrifice and suffering for the love of God.
14. No faith in God can for long survive pure and unalloyed without the support of faith in Christ. "No one knoweth who the Son is, but the Father: and who the Father is, but the Son and to whom the Son will reveal Him" (Luke x. 22). "Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent" (John xvii. 3). Nobody, therefore, can say: "I believe in God, and that is enough religion for me," for the Savior's words brook no evasion: "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son hath the Father also" (1John ii. 23).
15. In Jesus Christ, Son of God made Man, there shone the plentitude of divine revelation. "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets last of all, in these days hath spoken to us by His Son" (Heb. i. 1). The sacred books of the Old Testament are exclusively the word of God, and constitute a substantial part of his revelation; they are penetrated by a subdued light, harmonizing with the slow development of revelation, the dawn of the bright day of the redemption. As should be expected in historical and didactic books, they reflect in many particulars the imperfection, the weakness and sinfulness of man. But side by side with innumerable touches of greatness and nobleness, they also record the story of the chosen people, bearers of the Revelation and the Promise, repeatedly straying from God and turning to the world. Eyes not blinded by prejudice or passion will see in this prevarication, as reported by the Biblical history, the luminous splendor of the divine light revealing the saving plan which finally triumphs over every fault and sin. It is precisely in the twilight of this background that one perceives the striking perspective of the divine tutorship of salvation, as it warms, admonishes, strikes, raises and beautifies its elect. Nothing but ignorance and pride could blind one to the treasures hoarded in the Old Testament.
16. Whoever wishes to see banished from church and school the Biblical history and the wise doctrines of the Old Testament, blasphemes the name of God, blasphemes the Almighty's plan of salvation, and makes limited and narrow human thought the judge of God's designs over the history of the world: he denies his faith in the true Christ, such as He appeared in the flesh, the Christ who took His human nature from a people that was to crucify Him; and he understands nothing of that universal tragedy of the Son of God who to His torturer's sacrilege opposed the divine and priestly sacrifice of His redeeming death, and made the new alliance the goal of the old alliance, its realization and its crown.
17. The peak of the revelation as reached in the Gospel of Christ is final and permanent. It knows no retouches by human hand; it admits no substitutes or arbitrary alternatives such as certain leaders pretend to draw from the so-called myth of race and blood. Since Christ, the Lord's Anointed, finished the task of Redemption, and by breaking up the reign of sin deserved for us the grace of being the children God, since that day no other name under heaven has been given to men, whereby we must be saved (Acts iv. 12). No man, were every science, power and worldly strength incarnated in him, can lay any other foundation but that which is laid: which is Christ Jesus (1 Cor. iii 11). Should any man dare, in sacrilegious disregard of the essential differences between God and His creature, between the God-man and the children of man, to place a mortal, were he the greatest of all times, by the side of, or over, or against, Christ, he would deserve to be called prophet of nothingness, to whom the terrifying words of Scripture would be applicable: "He that dwelleth in heaven shall laugh at them" (Psalms ii. 3).
18. Faith in Christ cannot maintain itself pure and unalloyed without the support of faith in the Church, "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. iii. 15); for Christ Himself, God eternally blessed, raised this pillar of the Faith. His command to hear the Church (Matt. xviii. 15), to welcome in the words and commands of the Church His own words and His own commands (Luke x. 16), is addressed to all men, of all times and of all countries. The Church founded by the Redeemer is one, the same for all races and all nations. Beneath her dome, as beneath the vault of heaven, there is but one country for all nations and tongues; there is room for the development of every quality, advantage, task and vocation which God the Creator and Savior has allotted to individuals as well as to ethnical communities. The Church's maternal heart is big enough to see in the God-appointed development of individual characteristics and gifts, more than a mere danger of divergency. She rejoices at the spiritual superiorities among individuals and nations. In their successes she sees with maternal joy and pride fruits of education and progress, which she can only bless and encourage, whenever she can conscientiously do so. But she also knows that to this freedom limits have been set by the majesty of the divine command, which founded that Church one and indivisible. Whoever tampers with that unity and that indivisibility wrenches from the Spouse of Christ one of the diadems with which God Himself crowned her; he subjects a divine structure, which stands on eternal foundations, to criticism and transformation by architects whom the Father of Heaven never authorized to interfere.
19. The Church, whose work lies among men and operates through men, may see her divine mission obscured by human, too human, combination, persistently growing and developing like the cockle among the wheat of the Kingdom of God. Those who know the Savior's words on scandal and the giver of scandals, know, too, the judgment which the Church and all her sons must pronounce on what was and what is sin. But if, besides these reprehensible discrepancies be between faith and life, acts and words, exterior conduct and interior feelings, however numerous they be, anyone overlooks the overwhelming sum of authentic virtues, of spirit of sacrifice, fraternal love, heroic efforts of sanctity, he gives evidence of deplorable blindness and injustice. If later he forgets to apply the standard of severity, by which he measures the Church he hates, to other organizations in which he happens to be interested, then his appeal to an offended sense of purity identifies him with those who, for seeing the mote in their brother's eye, according to the Savior's incisive words, cannot see the beam in their own. But however suspicious the intention of those who make it their task, nay their vile profession, to scrutinize what is human in the Church, and although the priestly powers conferred by God are independent of the priest's human value, it yet remains true that at no moment of history, no individual, in no organization can dispense himself from the duty of loyally examining his conscience, of mercilessly purifying himself, and energetically renewing himself in spirit and in action. In Our Encyclical on the priesthood We have urged attention to the sacred duty of all those who belong to the Church, chiefly the members of the priestly and religious profession and of the lay apostolate, to square their faith and their conduct with the claims of the law of God and of the Church. And today we again repeat with all the insistency We can command: it is not enough to be a member of the Church of Christ, one needs to be a living member, in spirit and in truth, i.e., living in the state of grace and in the presence of God, either in innocence or in sincere repentance. If the Apostle of the nations, the vase of election, chastised his body and brought it into subjection: lest perhaps, when he had preached to others, he himself should become a castaway (1 Cor. ix. 27), could anybody responsible for the extension of the Kingdom of God claim any other method but personal sanctification? Only thus can we show to the present generation, and to the critics of the Church that "the salt of the earth," the leaven of Christianity has not decayed, but is ready to give the men of today - prisoners of doubt and error, victims of indifference, tired of their Faith and straying from God - the spiritual renewal they so much need. A Christianity which keeps a grip on itself, refuses every compromise with the world, takes the commands of God and the Church seriously, preserves its love of God and of men in all its freshness, such a Christianity can be, and will be, a model and a guide to a world which is sick to death and clamors for directions, unless it be condemned to a catastrophe that would baffle the imagination.
20. Every true and lasting reform has ultimately sprung from the sanctity of men who were driven by the love of God and of men. Generous, ready to stand to attention to any call from God, yet confident in themselves because confident in their vocation, they grew to the size of beacons and reformers. On the other hand, any reformatory zeal, which instead of springing from personal purity, flashes out of passion, has produced unrest instead of light, destruction instead of construction, and more than once set up evils worse than those it was out to remedy. No doubt "the Spirit breatheth where he will" (John iii. 8): "of stones He is able to raise men to prepare the way to his designs" (Matt. iii. 9). He chooses the instruments of His will according to His own plans, not those of men. But the Founder of the Church, who breathed her into existence at Pentecost, cannot disown the foundations as He laid them. Whoever is moved by the spirit of God, spontaneously adopts both outwardly and inwardly, the true attitude toward the Church, this sacred fruit from the tree of the cross, this gift from the Spirit of God, bestowed on Pentecost day to an erratic world.
21. In your country, Venerable Brethren, voices are swelling into a chorus urging people to leave the Church, and among the leaders there is more than one whose official position is intended to create the impression that this infidelity to Christ the King constitutes a signal and meritorious act of loyalty to the modern State. Secret and open measures of intimidation, the threat of economic and civic disabilities, bear on the loyalty of certain classes of Catholic functionaries, a pressure which violates every human right and dignity. Our wholehearted paternal sympathy goes out to those who must pay so dearly for their loyalty to Christ and the Church; but directly the highest interests are at stake, with the alternative of spiritual loss, there is but one alternative left, that of heroism. If the oppressor offers one the Judas bargain of apostasy he can only, at the cost of every worldly sacrifice, answer with Our Lord: "Begone, Satan! For it is written: The Lord thy God shalt thou adore, and Him only shalt thou serve" (Matt. iv. 10). And turning to the Church, he shall say: "Thou, my mother since my infancy, the solace of my life and advocate at my death, may my tongue cleave to my palate if, yielding to worldly promises or threats, I betray the vows of my baptism." As to those who imagine that they can reconcile exterior infidelity to one and the same Church, let them hear Our Lord's warning: - "He that shall deny me before men shall be denied before the angels of God" (Luke xii. 9).
22. Faith in the Church cannot stand pure and true without the support of faith in the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. The same moment when Peter, in the presence of all the Apostles and disciples, confesses his faith in Christ, Son of the Living God, the answer he received in reward for his faith and his confession was the word that built the Church, the only Church of Christ, on the rock of Peter (Matt. xvi. 18). Thus was sealed the connection between the faith in Christ, the Church and the Primacy. True and lawful authority is invariably a bond of unity, a source of strength, a guarantee against division and ruin, a pledge for the future: and this is verified in the deepest and sublimest sense, when that authority, as in the case of the Church, and the Church alone, is sealed by the promise and the guidance of the Holy Ghost and His irresistible support. Should men, who are not even united by faith in Christ, come and offer you the seduction of a national German Church, be convinced that it is nothing but a denial of the one Church of Christ and the evident betrayal of that universal evangelical mission, for which a world Church alone is qualified and competent. The live history of other national churches with their paralysis, their domestication and subjection to worldly powers, is sufficient evidence of the sterility to which is condemned every branch that is severed from the trunk of the living Church. Whoever counters these erroneous developments with an uncompromising No from the very outset, not only serves the purity of his faith in Christ, but also the welfare and the vitality of his own people.
23. You will need to watch carefully, Venerable Brethren, that religious fundamental concepts be not emptied of their content and distorted to profane use. "Revelation" in its Christian sense, means the word of God addressed to man. The use of this word for the "suggestions" of race and blood, for the irradiations of a people's history, is mere equivocation. False coins of this sort do not deserve Christian currency. "Faith" consists in holding as true what God has revealed and proposes through His Church to man's acceptance. It is "the evidence of things that appear not" (Heb. ii. 1). The joyful and proud confidence in the future of one's people, instinct in every heart, is quite a different thing from faith in a religious sense. To substitute the one for the other, and demand on the strength of this, to be numbered among the faithful followers of Christ, is a senseless play on words, if it does not conceal a confusion of concepts, or worse.
24. "Immortality" in a Christian sense means the survival of man after his terrestrial death, for the purpose of eternal reward or punishment. Whoever only means by the term, the collective survival here on earth of his people for an indefinite length of time, distorts one of the fundamental notions of the Christian Faith and tampers with the very foundations of the religious concept of the universe, which requires a moral order.
25. "Original sin" is the hereditary but impersonal fault of Adam's descendants, who have sinned in him (Rom. v. 12). It is the loss of grace, and therefore of eternal life, together with a propensity to evil, which everybody must, with the assistance of grace, penance, resistance and moral effort, repress and conquer. The passion and death of the Son of God has redeemed the world from the hereditary curse of sin and death. Faith in these truths, which in your country are today the butt of the cheap derision of Christ's enemies, belongs to the inalienable treasury of Christian revelation.
26. The cross of Christ, though it has become to many a stumbling block and foolishness (1 Cor. i. 23) remains for the believer the holy sign of his redemption, the emblem of moral strength and greatness. We live in its shadow and die in its embrace. It will stand on our grave as a pledge of our faith and our hope in the eternal light.
27. Humility in the spirit of the Gospel and prayer for the assistance of grace are perfectly compatible with self-confidence and heroism. The Church of Christ, which throughout the ages and to the present day numbers more confessors and voluntary martyrs than any other moral collectivity, needs lessons from no one in heroism of feeling and action. The odious pride of reformers only covers itself with ridicule when it rails at Christian humility as though it were but a cowardly pose of self-degradation.
28. "Grace," in a wide sense, may stand for any of the Creator's gifts to His creature; but in its Christian designation, it means all the supernatural tokens of God's love; God's intervention which raises man to that intimate communion of life with Himself, called by the Gospel "adoption of the children of God." "Behold what manner of charity the Father hath bestowed on us, that we should be called and should be the sons of God" (1 John iii. 1). To discard this gratuitous and free elevation in the name of a so-called German type amounts to repudiating openly a fundamental truth of Christianity. It would be an abuse of our religious vocabulary to place on the same level supernatural grace and natural gifts. Pastors and guardians of the people of God will do well to resist this plunder of sacred things and this confusion of ideas.
29. It is on faith in God, preserved pure and stainless, that man's morality is based. All efforts to remove from under morality and the moral order the granite foundation of faith and to substitute for it the shifting sands of human regulations, sooner or later lead these individuals or societies to moral degradation. The fool who has said in his heart "there is no God" goes straight to moral corruption (Psalms xiii. 1), and the number of these fools who today are out to sever morality from religion, is legion. They either do not see or refuse to see that the banishment of confessional Christianity, i.e., the clear and precise notion of Christianity, from teaching and education, from the organization of social and political life, spells spiritual spoliation and degradation. No coercive power of the State, no purely human ideal, however noble and lofty it be, will ever be able to make shift of the supreme and decisive impulses generated by faith in God and Christ. If the man, who is called to the hard sacrifice of his own ego to the common good, loses the support of the eternal and the divine, that comforting and consoling faith in a God who rewards all good and punishes all evil, then the result of the majority will be, not the acceptance, but the refusal of their duty. The conscientious observation of the ten commandments of God and the precepts of the Church (which are nothing but practical specifications of rules of the Gospels) is for every one an unrivaled school of personal discipline, moral education and formation of character, a school that is exacting, but not to excess. A merciful God, who as Legislator, says - Thou must! - also gives by His grace the power to will and to do. To let forces of moral formation of such efficacy lie fallow, or to exclude them positively from public education, would spell religious under-feeding of a nation. To hand over the moral law to man's subjective opinion, which changes with the times, instead of anchoring it in the holy will of the eternal God and His commandments, is to open wide every door to the forces of destruction. The resulting dereliction of the eternal principles of an objective morality, which educates conscience and ennobles every department and organization of life, is a sin against the destiny of a nation, a sin whose bitter fruit will poison future generations.
30. Such is the rush of present-day life that it severs from the divine foundation of Revelation, not only morality, but also the theoretical and practical rights. We are especially referring to what is called the natural law, written by the Creator's hand on the tablet of the heart (Rom. ii. 14) and which reason, not blinded by sin or passion, can easily read. It is in the light of the commands of this natural law, that all positive law, whoever be the lawgiver, can be gauged in its moral content, and hence, in the authority it wields over conscience. Human laws in flagrant contradiction with the natural law are vitiated with a taint which no force, no power can mend. In the light of this principle one must judge the axiom, that "right is common utility," a proposition which may be given a correct significance, it means that what is morally indefensible, can never contribute to the good of the people. But ancient paganism acknowledged that the axiom, to be entirely true, must be reversed and be made to say: "Nothing can be useful, if it is not at the same time morally good" (Cicero, De Off. ii. 30). Emancipated from this oral rule, the principle would in international law carry a perpetual state of war between nations; for it ignores in national life, by confusion of right and utility, the basic fact that man as a person possesses rights he holds from God, and which any collectivity must protect against denial, suppression or neglect. To overlook this truth is to forget that the real common good ultimately takes its measure from man's nature, which balances personal rights and social obligations, and from the purpose of society, established for the benefit of human nature. Society, was intended by the Creator for the full development of individual possibilities, and for the social benefits, which by a give and take process, every one can claim for his own sake and that of others. Higher and more general values, which collectivity alone can provide, also derive from the Creator for the good of man, and for the full development, natural and supernatural, and the realization of his perfection. To neglect this order is to shake the pillars on which society rests, and to compromise social tranquillity, security and existence.
31. The believer has an absolute right to profess his Faith and live according to its dictates. Laws which impede this profession and practice of Faith are against natural law.
Parents who are earnest and conscious of their educative duties, have a primary right to the education of the children God has given them in the spirit of their Faith, and according to its prescriptions. Laws and measures which in school questions fail to respect this freedom of the parents go against natural law, and are immoral. The Church, whose mission it is to preserve and explain the natural law, as it is divine in its origin, cannot but declare that the recent enrollment into schools organized without a semblance of freedom, is the result of unjust pressure, and is a violation of every common right.
32. As the Vicar of Him who said to the young man of the Gospel: "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matt. xix. 17), We address a few paternal words to the young.
33. Thousands of voices ring into your ears a Gospel which has not been revealed by the Father of Heaven. Thousands of pens are wielded in the service of a Christianity, which is not of Christ. Press and wireless daily force on you productions hostile to the Faith and to the Church, impudently aggressive against whatever you should hold venerable and sacred. Many of you, clinging to your Faith and to your Church, as a result of your affiliation with religious associations guaranteed by the concordat, have often to face the tragic trial of seeing your loyalty to your country misunderstood, suspected, or even denied, and of being hurt in your professional and social life. We are well aware that there is many a humble soldier of Christ in your ranks, who with torn feelings, but a determined heart, accepts his fate, finding his one consolation in the thought of suffering insults for the name of Jesus (Acts v. 41). Today, as We see you threatened with new dangers and new molestations, We say to you: If any one should preach to you a Gospel other than the one you received on the knees of a pious mother, from the lips of a believing father, or through teaching faithful to God and His Church, "let him be anathema" (Gal. i. 9). If the State organizes a national youth, and makes this organization obligatory to all, then, without prejudice to rights of religious associations, it is the absolute right of youths as well as of parents to see to it that this organization is purged of all manifestations hostile to the Church and Christianity. These manifestations are even today placing Christian parents in a painful alternative, as they cannot give to the State what they owe to God alone.
34. No one would think of preventing young Germans establishing a true ethnical community in a noble love of freedom and loyalty to their country. What We object to is the voluntary and systematic antagonism raised between national education and religious duty. That is why we tell the young: Sing your hymns to freedom, but do not forget the freedom of the children of God. Do not drag the nobility of that freedom in the mud of sin and sensuality. He who sings hymns of loyalty to this terrestrial country should not, for that reason, become unfaithful to God and His Church, or a deserter and traitor to His heavenly country. You are often told about heroic greatness, in lying opposition to evangelical humility and patience. Why conceal the fact that there are heroisms in moral life? That the preservation of baptismal innocence is an act of heroism which deserves credit? You are often told about the human deficiencies which mar the history of the Church: why ignore the exploits which fill her history, the saints she begot, the blessing that came upon Western civilization from the union between that Church and your people? You are told about sports. Indulged in with moderation and within limits, physical education is a boon for youth. But so much time is now devoted to sporting activities, that the harmonious development of body and mind is disregarded, that duties to one's family, and the observation of the Lord's Day are neglected. With an indifference bordering on contempt the day of the Lord is divested of its sacred character, against the best of German traditions. But We expect the Catholic youth, in the more favorable organizations of the State, to uphold its right to a Christian sanctification of the Sunday, not to exercise the body at the expense of the immortal soul, not to be overcome by evil, but to aim at the triumph of good over evil (Rom. xii. 21) as its highest achievement will be the gaining of the crown in the stadium of eternal life (1 Cor. ix. 24).
35. We address a special word of congratulation, encouragement and exhortation to the priests of Germany, who, in difficult times and delicate situations, have, under the direction of their Bishops, to guide the flocks of Christ along the straight road, by word and example, by their daily devotion and apostolic patience. Beloved sons, who participate with Us in the sacred mysteries, never tire of exercising, after the Sovereign and eternal Priest, Jesus Christ, the charity and solicitude of the Good Samaritan. Let your daily conduct remain stainless before God and the incessant pursuit of your perfection and sanctification, in merciful charity towards all those who are confided to your care, especially those who are more exposed, who are weak and stumbling. Be the guides of the faithful, the support of those who fail, the doctors of the doubting, the consolers of the afflicted, the disinterested counselors and assistants of all. The trials and sufferings which your people have undergone in post-War days have not passed over its soul without leaving painful marks. They have left bitterness and anxiety which are slow to cure, except by charity. This charity is the apostle's indispensable weapon, in a world torn by hatred. It will make you forget, or at least forgive, many an undeserved insult now more frequent than ever.
36. This charity, intelligent and sympathetic towards those even who offend you, does by no means imply a renunciation of the right of proclaiming, vindicating and defending the truth and its implications. The priest's first loving gift to his neighbors is to serve truth and refute error in any of its forms. Failure on this score would be not only a betrayal of God and your vocation, but also an offense against the real welfare of your people and country. To all those who have kept their promised fidelity to their Bishops on the day of their ordination; to all those who in the exercise of their priestly function are called upon to suffer persecution; to all those imprisoned in jail and cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρs, the Father of the Christian world sends his words of gratitude and commendation.
37. Our paternal gratitude also goes out to Religious and nuns, as well as Our sympathy for so many who, as a result of administrative measures hostile to Religious Orders, have been wrenched from the work of their vocation. If some have fallen and shown themselves unworthy of their vocation, their fault, which the Church punishes, in no way detracts from the merit of the immense majority, who, in voluntary abnegation and poverty, have tried to serve their God and their country. By their zeal, their fidelity, their virtue, their active charity, their devotion, the Orders devoted to the care of souls, the service of the sick and education, are greatly contributing to private and public welfare. No doubt better days will come to do them better justice than the present troublous times have done. We trust that the heads of religious communities will profit by their trials and difficulties tO renew their zeal, their spirit of prayer, the austerity of their lives and their perfect discipline, in order to draw down God's blessing upon their difficult work.
38. We visualize the immense multitudes of Our faithful children, Our sons and daughters, for whom the sufferings of the Church in Germany and their own have left intact their devotion to the cause of God, their tender love for the Father of Christendom, their obedience to their pastors, their joyous resolution to remain ever faithful, happen what may, to the sacred inheritance of their ancestors. To all of them We send Our paternal greetings. And first to the members of those religious associations which, bravely and at the cost of untold sacrifices, have remained faithful to Christ, and have stood by the rights which a solemn treaty had guaranteed to the Church and to themselves according to the rules of loyalty and good faith.
39. We address Our special greetings to the Catholic parents. Their rights and duties as educators, conferred on them by God, are at present the stake of a campaign pregnant with consequences. The Church cannot wait to deplore the devastation of its altars, the destruction of its temples, if an education, hostile to Christ, is to profane the temple of the child's soul consecrated by baptism, and extinguish the eternal light of the faith in Christ for the sake of counterfeit light alien to the Cross. Then the violation of temples is nigh, and it will be every one's duty to sever his responsibility from the opposite camp, and free his conscience from guilty cooperation with such corruption. The more the enemies attempt to disguise their designs, the more a distrustful vigilance will be needed, in the light of bitter experience. Religious lessons maintained for the sake of appearances, controlled by unauthorized men, within the frame of an educational system which systematically works against religion, do not justify a vote in favor of non-confessional schools. We know, dear Catholic parents, that your vote was not free, for a free and secret vote would have meant the triumph of the Catholic schools. Therefore, we shall never cease frankly to represent to the responsible authorities the iniquity of the pressure brought to bear on you and the duty of respecting the freedom of education. Yet do not forget this: none can free you from the responsibility God has placed on you over your children. None of your oppressors, who pretend to relieve you of your duties can answer for you to the eternal Judge, when he will ask: "Where are those I confided to you?" May every one of you be able to answer: "Of them whom thou hast given me, I have not lost any one" (John xviii. 9).
40. Venerable Brethren, We are convinced that the words which in this solemn moment We address to you, and to the Catholics of the German Empire, will find in the hearts and in the acts of Our Faithful, the echo responding to the solicitude of the common Father. If there is one thing We implore the Lord to grant, it is this, that Our words may reach the ears and the hearts of those who have begun to yield to the threats and enticements of the enemies of Christ and His Church.
41. We have weighed every word of this letter in the balance of truth and love. We wished neither to be an accomplice to equivocation by an untimely silence, nor by excessive severity to harden the hearts of those who live under Our pastoral responsibility; for Our pastoral love pursues them none the less for all their infidelity. Should those who are trying to adapt their mentality to their new surroundings, have for the paternal home they have left and for the Father Himself, nothing but words of distrust, in gratitude or insult, should they even forget whatever they forsook, the day will come when their anguish will fall on the children they have lost, when nostalgia will bring them back to "God who was the joy of their youth," to the Church whose paternal hand has directed them on the road that leads to the Father of Heaven.
42. Like other periods of the history of the Church, the present has ushered in a new ascension of interior purification, on the sole condition that the faithful show themselves proud enough in the confession of their faith in Christ, generous enough in suffering to face the oppressors of the Church with the strength of their faith and charity. May the holy time of Lent and Easter, which preaches interior renovation and penance, turn Christian eyes towards the Cross and the risen Christ; be for all of you the joyful occasion that will fill your souls with heroism, patience and victory. Then We are sure, the enemies of the Church, who think that their time has come, will see that their joy was premature, and that they may close the grave they had dug. The day will come when the Te Deum of liberation will succeed to the premature hymns of the enemies of Christ: Te Deum of triumph and joy and gratitude, as the German people return to religion, bend the knee before Christ, and arming themselves against the enemies of God, again resume the task God has laid upon them.
43. He who searches the hearts and reins (Psalm vii. 10) is Our witness that We have no greater desire than to see in Germany the restoration of a true peace between Church and State. But if, without any fault of Ours, this peace is not to come, then the Church of God will defend her rights and her freedom in the name of the Almighty whose arm has not shortened. Trusting in Him, "We cease not to pray and to beg" (Col. i. 9) for you, children of the Church, that the days of tribulation may end and that you may be found faithful in the day of judgment; for the persecutors and oppressors, that the Father of light and mercy may enlighten them as He enlightened Saul on the road of Damascus. With this prayer in Our heart and on Our lips We grant to you, as a pledge of Divine help, as a support in your difficult resolutions, as a comfort in the struggle, as a consolation in all trials, to You, Bishops and Pastors of the Faithful, priests, Religious, lay apostles of Catholic Action, to all your diocesans, and specially to the sick and the prisoners, in paternal love, Our Apostolic Benediction.
Given at the Vatican on Passion Sunday, March 14, 1937. 
PIUS XI
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 06, 2017, 08:26:55 AM
http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html (http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html)

MIT BRENNENDER SORGE
Perhaps just some pertinent excerpts and a link next time ma'am?
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: poche on November 06, 2017, 08:49:37 AM
Back in October of 2016, I praised and recommended Mark Riebling’s brilliant and exciting book, Church of Spies: The Pope’s Secret War against Hitler. Riebling focused almost exclusively on the relationship between the Vatican and the network of those within Germany who were seeking to replace Adolph Hitler and establish a government oriented toward the common good. This network relied heavily on Catholic priests, religious and lay people. Planning was highly influenced by Pius XII and Catholic social teaching.

Important as Church of Spies is, it was not part of its purpose to cover the entire range of Catholic resistance to Hitler in all the regions controlled by the Third Reich, including (for example) the widespread efforts of Catholics to hide Jews, protect them, and get them to safety. There was even a Catholic youth group which yielded up its own martyrs through its determined opposition to the government-sponsored Hitler Youth movement. All of this, and much more, is the subject of a new book by Peter Bartley, Catholics Confronting Hitler, published by Ignatius.

Subtitled “The Catholic Church and the nαzιs”, Bartley’s book covers not only papal initiatives but the Catholic response to Hitler in Poland and the Western European regions occupied by the Germans, along with the efforts to rescue the Jews of Central and Eastern Europe. Other important chapters cover occupied Rome, the problems faced by Vatican diplomacy, and the many kinds of heroic opposition to Hitler within Germany itself. Key names from Riebling’s narrative appear again here, but Bartley unveils the full scope of Catholic resistance, from top to bottom, in each affected region: France, Italy, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Poland, Slovakia, Rumania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Greece and Hungary.

Catholics Confronting Hitler, while not the personal adventure story made possible by Mark Riebling’s highly-focused account of the particular people involved in the Catholic spy network, still manages to be dramatic in its own right. The stakes are so high, and the chronicle of Catholic resistance so clear and specific, that the reader finds himself cheering on those brave souls. At the same time, there is no doubt that the research is genuine: Bartley includes a bibliography of over 150 primary and secondary sources to back up his claims, and strategic footnotes are provided to let the reader know what information came from which sources. There is also a highly useful index.

This comprehensive account is a testament to widespread heroism on the part of Catholics and other Christians. Anyone who reads both Church of Spies and Catholics Confronting Hitler will realize that the ghost of “Hitler’s Pope” has been completely exorcized. The role played by the Catholic Church—the pope, cardinals, bishops, priests, religious and laity—in protecting Jews and resisting Hitler in countless ways is now proven to be exactly what everyone on the scene (including Hitler) knew it to be in the 1940s—and nothing like the myth which the sycophants of a newly secular culture invented once the realities had faded from memory.

As Bartley concludes:

Alas, the truth is often obscured by an atmosphere of prejudice and hate for Rome…[but] Catholics need have no doubts…. Rather, they have every reason to feel proud. Two reigning popes and three future popes in significant ways offered resistance to Hitler. The facts are well-attested. Wherever nαzιsm held sway, it found an unrelenting foe in the pope and the Catholic Church. [p. 258]
Now, unfortunately, too much of what was considered horrific in the 1940s has become commonplace. Contemporary culture is very forward in its own sacrifices to Ba’al. May Catholics find a similar courage and determination today.

http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/the-city-gates.cfm?id=1409 (http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/the-city-gates.cfm?id=1409)


Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 06, 2017, 09:05:31 AM
Perhaps just some pertinent excerpts and a link next time ma'am?
http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html (http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html)

"...the evidence of events should have torn the mask off the systematic hostility leveled at the Church. Even now that a campaign against the confessional schools, which are guaranteed by the concordat, and the destruction of free election, where Catholics have a right to their children's Catholic education, afford evidence, in a matter so essential to the life of the Church, of the extreme gravity of the situation and the anxiety of every Christian conscience..."

"...We turn to you [the German bishops], and through you, the German Catholics, who, like all suffering and afflicted children, are nearer to their Father's heart. At a time when your faith, like gold, is being tested in the fire of tribulation and persecution, when your religious freedom is beset on all sides, when the lack of religious teaching and of normal defense is heavily weighing on you, you have every right to words of truth and spiritual comfort..." 

"We thank you, Venerable Brethren, your priests and Faithful, who have persisted in their Christian duty and in the defense of God's rights in the teeth of an aggressive paganism. Our gratitude, warmer still and admiring, goes out to those who, in fulfillment of their duty, have been deemed worthy of sacrifice and suffering for the love of God."

"In your country, Venerable Brethren, voices are swelling into a chorus urging people to leave the Church, and among the leaders there is more than one whose official position is intended to create the impression that this infidelity to Christ the King constitutes a signal and meritorious act of loyalty to the modern State. Secret and open measures of intimidation, the threat of economic and civic disabilities, bear on the loyalty of certain classes of Catholic functionaries, a pressure which violates every human right and dignity. Our wholehearted paternal sympathy goes out to those who must pay so dearly for their loyalty to Christ and the Church; but directly the highest interests are at stake, with the alternative of spiritual loss, there is but one alternative left, that of heroism."

"The believer has an absolute right to profess his Faith and live according to its dictates. Laws which impede this profession and practice of Faith are against natural law."

"Thousands of voices ring into your ears a Gospel which has not been revealed by the Father of Heaven. Thousands of pens are wielded in the service of a Christianity, which is not of Christ. Press and wireless daily force on you productions hostile to the Faith and to the Church, impudently aggressive against whatever you should hold venerable and sacred."

"To all those who have kept their promised fidelity to their Bishops on the day of their ordination; to all those who in the exercise of their priestly function are called upon to suffer persecution; to all those imprisoned in jail and cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρs, the Father of the Christian world sends his words of gratitude and commendation."

"Then We are sure, the enemies of the Church, who think that their time has come, will see that their joy was premature, and that they may close the grave they had dug. The day will come when the Te Deum of liberation will succeed to the premature hymns of the enemies of Christ: Te Deum of triumph and joy and gratitude, as the German people return to religion, bend the knee before Christ, and arming themselves against the enemies of God, again resume the task God has laid upon them."
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 06, 2017, 09:54:41 AM

Quote
When Hitler took power in 1933 he supported the re-established military chaplaincy for three reasons: first, because religion to him was a critical element in cultivating loyalty and motivating soldiers; second, the chaplaincy was a means of control over the troops, and third, it was a vehicle for imputing nationalistic loyalties for the sake of enhancing Germany’s historic civilization. The Vatican was also intensely interested in the future of the Catholic military chaplaincy. The Reich Concordat between the Holy See and the new nαzι government that was signed in July 1933 contained explicit directions for the future governance of this chaplaincy. It made this service directly responsible to the pope and gave the chaplains independence from any guidance or authority from the local German bishops. It also included a secret clause for the possible reintroduction of military conscription whereby Catholic clergy would be directed to the pastoral care of the troops or else drafted into the army’s medical service.

This agreement cleared the way for the appointment of the Catholic field bishop, Franz Justus Rarkowski who, although not a nαzι Party member, was known as an ardent supporter of the chief planks of nαzι ideology—particularly the restoration of Germany’s greatness, the strident opposition to Bolshevism, and the drive to enhance German racial purity that included its antisemitic component. Rarkowski’s appointment was, however, opposed by several of the diocesan German bishops who felt he lacked the necessary academic qualifications for episcopal rank. He was never invited to the regular meetings of the German Catholic hierarchy and in fact proved to be an ineffectual leader, unable to take a strong stand in defense of his agency. He was rated to be weak and easily controlled, and suffered from bouts of ill health that led to his retirement in early 1945. Georg Werthmann, his deputy or field vicar-general, was a much stauncher character. Fortunately, he survived the 1945 disaster and took refuge in a Bavarian monastery. During his internment there, he drafted a large series of notes about the chaplaincy, which were to be used for a future book. These extensive notes have survived and have provided Rossi with a “treasure trove” that she has lucidly and skillfully exploited.

These sources give us a clear indication of the numbers involved, which were astonishingly miniscule. The total number of Catholic priests in the chaplaincy was only 545, including those who were taken prisoner or were dismissed. The highest number in the field at any one time was only 390 in summer 1941. Given the fact that millions of young Germans, many of them Catholics, were conscripted, this disparity was striking and was made only worse at the end of 1942...



https://muse.jhu.edu/article/604247/summary (https://muse.jhu.edu/article/604247/summary)
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Pax Vobis on November 06, 2017, 10:14:06 AM
I read the autobiography from the Baroness, Elizabeth Von Guttenberg, "Holding the Stirrup".  She was related to Claus by marriage.  She was very catholic and related in detail the history before, during and after WW1.  I have no doubt that many of the nobles who attempted Hitler's death, did so only after all other measures were tried.  There were multiple attempts to re-establish the monarchy in Germany but they were thrwarted and the men were executed.  The nobility truly cared about Germany and many were good catholics.  They made great sacrifices; they weren't concerned with regaining wealth, but bringing back morality and God into the country.  Towards the end of WW1 many nobility were imprisoned and never heard from again.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 06, 2017, 01:39:39 PM
I think that Gottmituns (and the people who voted that Hitler was a great leader) have been mislead by the thought of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" to an inappropriate sympathy toward the Reich government.  In spite of its opposition to some enemies of the Church, it was itself also our enemy.

Pius XI makes it very clear in Mit brenennder Sorge that this regime oppressed Catholics and was our enemy.  Here is a similar account from Wikipedia: 

Quote
Persecution of the Catholic Church in Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_Germany) followed the nαzι takeover.[334] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/nαzι_Germany#cite_note-FOOTNOTEKershaw2008332-342) Hitler moved quickly to eliminate political Catholicism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_Catholicism), rounding up functionaries of the Catholic-aligned Bavarian People's Party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_People%27s_Party) and Catholic Centre Party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Centre_Party), which along with all other non-nαzι political parties ceased to exist by July.[335] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/nαzι_Germany#cite_note-FOOTNOTEKershaw2008290-343) The Reichskonkordat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat) (Reich Concordat) treaty with the Vatican was signed in 1933, amid continuing harassment of the church in Germany.[273] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/nαzι_Germany#cite_note-FOOTNOTEKershaw2008295-280) The treaty required the regime to honour the independence of Catholic institutions and prohibited clergy from involvement in politics.[336] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/nαzι_Germany#cite_note-FOOTNOTEEvans2005234.E2.80.93235-344) Hitler routinely disregarded the Concordat, closing all Catholic institutions whose functions were not strictly religious.[337] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/nαzι_Germany#cite_note-FOOTNOTEGill199457-345)Clergy, nuns and lay leaders were targeted, with thousands of arrests over the ensuing years, often on trumped-up charges of currency smuggling or immorality.[338] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/nαzι_Germany#cite_note-FOOTNOTEShirer1960234.E2.80.93235-346) Several high-profile Catholic lay leaders were targeted in the 1934 Night of the Long Knives (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives) assassinations.[339] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/nαzι_Germany#cite_note-FOOTNOTEKershaw2008315-347)[340] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/nαzι_Germany#cite_note-FOOTNOTELewis200045-348)[341] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/nαzι_Germany#cite_note-FOOTNOTEConway200192-349) Most Catholic youth groups refused to dissolve themselves and Hitler Youth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth) leader Baldur von Schirach (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldur_von_Schirach) encouraged members to attack Catholic boys in the streets.[342] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/nαzι_Germany#cite_note-FOOTNOTEEvans2005226.2C_237-350) Propaganda campaigns claimed the church was corrupt, restrictions were placed on public meetings and Catholic publications faced censorship. Catholic schools were required to reduce religious instruction and crucifixes were removed from state buildings.[343] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/nαzι_Germany#cite_note-FOOTNOTEEvans2005239.E2.80.93240-351)
Opposition to a regime such as this is understandable and justified.  The Catholic resistance in Germany, in some ways, resembles that of the Christiada in Mexico.  I'm wondering if those of you who see Colonel von Stauffenberg as a traitor would say the same of the Cristeros.  If not, in what way are the situations different?
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JezusDeKoning on November 06, 2017, 04:30:02 PM

I think that Gottmituns (and the people who voted that Hitler was a great leader) have been mislead by the thought of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" to an inappropriate sympathy toward the Reich government.  In spite of its opposition to some enemies of the Church, it was itself also our enemy.

Pius XI makes it very clear in Mit brenennder Sorge that this regime oppressed Catholics and was our enemy.  Here is a similar account from Wikipedia:
Opposition to a regime such as this is understandable and justified.  The Catholic resistance in Germany, in some ways, resembles that of the Christiada in Mexico.  I'm wondering if those of you who see Colonel von Stauffenberg as a traitor would say the same of the Cristeros.  If not, in what way are the situations different?

Quote
"Hitler biographer Alan Bullock (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Bullock) wrote that though Hitler was raised as a Catholic, and retained some regard for the organisational power of Catholicism, he had utter contempt for its central teachings which he said, if taken to their conclusion, "would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuits_and_nαzι_Germany#cite_note-Hitler_p218-8) Richard J. Evans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_J._Evans) wrote that Hitler believed that in the long run National Socialism and religion would not be able to co-exist, and stressed repeatedly that nαzιsm was a secular ideology, founded on modern science: "Science, he declared, would easily destroy the last remaining vestiges of superstition." Germany could not tolerate the intervention of foreign influences such as the Pope, and "priests, he said, were 'black bugs', 'abortions in black cassocks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassock).'"[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuits_and_nαzι_Germany#cite_note-9)" -Wikipedia, from the biography of Hitler


Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 06, 2017, 04:40:08 PM
The poll questions are all caddywhumpus anyway; at the very least they are unclear. 

Example: What does "great German leader" mean?

The Antichrist, for example, will be a "great (x) leader". 

Then, contingent upon the above, can't someone be a non-traitor and try to kill a "great German leader"?

Great leader? Great German? Great both? Okay, then what does/did it mean to be "German" and so, a great one?

By what terms? Who set them?
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: GottmitunsAlex on November 06, 2017, 07:02:37 PM
 Catholic field bishop, Franz Justus Rarkowski who, although not a nαzι Party member, was known as an ardent supporter of the chief planks of nαzι ideology—particularly the restoration of Germany’s greatness, the strident opposition to Bolshevism, and the drive to enhance German racial purity that included its antisemitic component.

https://muse.jhu.edu/article/604247/summary (https://muse.jhu.edu/article/604247/summary)
A failed and (quite poor) attempt to discredit a Catholic bishop (a Marist one at that) head of the chaplaincy of the German armed forces consecrated by the Apostolic nuncio to Germany (1930-1945) Excellency +Cesare Vincenzo Orsenigo for precisely that role. 
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-H26878%2C_Berlin%2C_Neujahrsempfang_in_der_neuen_Reichskanzlei.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146II-856%2C_Nuntius_Orsenigo_besucht_Kriegsgefangenenlager.jpg)
You are going to attempt to discredit the Apostolic nuncio as well? What? "Racial purity" Because they were in "anti-semetic" and what? "Strident opponents of Bolshevism"?
It does not surprise me one bit coming from you.
In regards to the Cristeros:  If anything, Europeans who were in Mexico helping the Cristeros in any capacity actually joined the Waffen-SS. Example: Standartenfuhrer Leon Degrelle. 
Pius XI was "misinformed" to say the least regarding the Cristeros and ordered them through the bishops to the disarmament truce "Arreglos". More Cristeros were killed after the "arreglos" than during the official 3 year war.
Pope Pius XII after Spain's victory over the ʝʊdɛօ-communists emitted the "Con Inmenzo Gozo" Apostolic blessing through the radio April 16 1939 to Spain and its allies for their victory.  Aside from God's grace the only other reason Spain won was because of Germany: Legion Kondor.  
If you didn't know, the official death toll for religious in Spain: 13 bishops, 4,172 diocesan priests and seminarians, 2,364 monks and friars and 283 nuns. 
In Mexico:  Between 1926–1929 40 priests were killed. There were 4,500 priests serving the people before the rebellion, but by 1934 there were only 334 licensed by the government to serve 15 million people. The rest had been eliminated by emigration, expulsion and assassination.By 1935, 17 states had no priests at all.
Pius XII did not want to make the same type of decision regarding Catholics fighting the ʝʊdɛօ-communists in Europe like his predecessor did and instead of asking the Catholics in each Christian country to desist and stop, he gave them his blessing.  Remember Pius XII was the Nuncio to Germany until 1930. He knew the decadence and the Jєωιѕн stranglehold on the country ever since the treaty of Versailles. During the Wiemar period. 
Christian Europe was fighting a war against ʝʊdɛօ-communism. It was not only Germany. And countries who were already controlled by the ʝʊdɛօ-communists, well many of their Catholic and protestant volunteers joined the German ranks to fight the ʝʊdɛօ-communists.
António de Oliveira Salazar, Francisco Franco, Eoin O'Duffy, Augustinas Voldemaras, Ferenc Szálasi, Mons. Jozef Tiso, Ante Pavelić, Léon Degrelle, Philippe Pétain, Benito Mussolini among others.
These men were never ex-communicated. Nor did Mit Brennender Sorge specifically ex-communicate any Catholic  serving in the Reich in any capacity.  (We all know about ex-communications latae sentantiae.)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BRNs6ziCQAAR8hX.jpg)


.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: GottmitunsAlex on November 06, 2017, 07:05:39 PM
The poll questions are all caddywhumpus anyway; at the very least they are unclear.

Example: What does "great German leader" mean?

The Antichrist, for example, will be a "great (x) leader".

Then, contingent upon the above, can't someone be a non-traitor and try to kill a "great German leader"?

Great leader? Great German? Great both? Okay, then what does/did it mean to be "German" and so, a great one?

By what terms? Who set them?
I agree. The voting options were limited and not described correctly. He was Austrian. In any case.. The "great" is subjective. 
But the poll narrative is a tad bit tilted to one side... 
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 06, 2017, 07:34:43 PM
Quote
These men were never ex-communicated. Nor did Mit Brennender Sorge specifically ex-communicate any Catholic  serving in the Reich in any capacity.  (We all know about ex-communications latae sentantiae.)
I do not see how this is relevant.  There is no question that the Reich government persecuted Catholics and that it was considered an enemy of the Church.  The encyclical clearly says so.  

Pius XI also explained in that encyclical that his concern not to make the situation worse for German Catholics meant that he could not be as blunt as he otherwise would have been.  Obviously, under such circuмstances, he was not going to single out powerful men by name for excommunication.

The Reich government was evil.  No matter how much you approve of its actions against Jews and Communists, it was opposed to the Catholic Faith and oppressive to Catholic people.  I do not see how it is possible to be a good Catholic and give this government the amount of approval that you do.  

You give no quarter to Jews because they are enemies of the Church.  Why then this double standard?  Why are you giving this other enemy of the Church a free pass?
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Incredulous on November 06, 2017, 07:41:46 PM
The poll questions are all caddywhumpus anyway; at the very least they are unclear.

Example: What does "great German leader" mean?

The Antichrist, for example, will be a "great (x) leader".

Then, contingent upon the above, can't someone be a non-traitor and try to kill a "great German leader"?

Great leader? Great German? Great both? Okay, then what does/did it mean to be "German" and so, a great one?

By what terms? Who set them?
Okay,  nice puppy doggy... 

Here's an easier one for you:

Was Colonel Claus a good or bad guy ?     :farmer:
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: GottmitunsAlex on November 06, 2017, 07:45:01 PM
I do not see how this is relevant.  There is no question that the Reich government persecuted Catholics and that it was considered an enemy of the Church.  The encyclical clearly says so.  

Pius XI also explained in that encyclical that his concern not to make the situation worse for German Catholics meant that he could not be as blunt as he otherwise would have been.  Obviously, under such circuмstances, he was not going to single out powerful men by name for excommunication.

The Reich government was evil.  No matter how much you approve of its actions against Jews and Communists, it was opposed to the Catholic Faith and oppressive to Catholic people.  I do not see how it is possible to be a good Catholic and give this government the amount of approval that you do.  

You give no quarter to Jews because they are enemies of the Church.  Why then this double standard?  Why are you giving this other enemy of the Church a free pass?
Germans were not enemies of the Church.  False dichotomy. The Church had enemies within. Especially in that time period when you had the new "Conversos". Fr. Gregory Baum is a prime example: MARRANOS.
THOSE ARE THE TRUE ENEMIES.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 06, 2017, 08:00:02 PM
Germans were not enemies of the Church.  False dichotomy. The Church had enemies within. Especially in that time period when you had the new "Conversos". Fr. Gregory Baum is a prime example: MARRANOS.
THOSE ARE THE TRUE ENEMIES.
I did not say that Germans were the enemies of the Church.  Nobody in this thread has said that.  Pius XI, however, said that the Reich government was the enemy of the Church. I accept his teaching.  So should you.

It is reasonable enough to consider Gregory Baum an enemy of the Church considering all the bad influence he had.  However, no matter how bad he was, it does not make Mit brennender Sorge go away.  We can name any number of groups or individuals who could be considered enemies of the Church.  That will never be a good reason to say that the Reich government was not an enemy of the Church.

For the record, my husband is of part German heritage. I have a daughter who is married to a German.  I have a son who is engaged to a German.  I even live in a German-settled area that was originally called Berlin.  I don't have any issues with Germans.  
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Clemens Maria on November 06, 2017, 09:59:02 PM
My understanding is that Hitler was hated by all his generals and he was responsible for military policies that cost many German lives.  He was sleeping when D-Day got under way and everyone was afraid to wake him because he was such a vindictive bastard.  So they could not get authorization to move Panzer divisions into place.  He basically liquidated Rommel.  He was totally inept.  And yet he would not negotiate peace.  If ever there was cause to put down a rabid dog, this was it.  A Catholic bishop approved.  Stauffenberg may not be a hero but I believe he acted out of a love for his country.  I don't see how a successful assassination of Hitler would have done more harm to Germany than what Hitler did in the final year of the war.  Good riddance to that cowardly pervert.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JezusDeKoning on November 06, 2017, 10:30:05 PM
My understanding is that Hitler was hated by all his generals and he was responsible for military policies that cost many German lives.  He was sleeping when D-Day got under way and everyone was afraid to wake him because he was such a vindictive bastard.  So they could not get authorization to move Panzer divisions into place.  He basically liquidated Rommel.  He was totally inept.  And yet he would not negotiate peace.  If ever there was cause to put down a rabid dog, this was it.  A Catholic bishop approved.  Stauffenberg may not be a hero but I believe he acted out of a love for his country.  I don't see how a successful assassination of Hitler would have done more harm to Germany than what Hitler did in the final year of the war.  Good riddance to that cowardly pervert.
The world would've been a better place if Hitler were never born and the nαzι Party stopped dead in its tracks.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JPaul on November 07, 2017, 08:49:22 AM
It is amazing just how ingrained the Jєωιѕн narrative of WWII is in most western countries and particularly in Catholics. So many doped minds and lazy intellects. There has been so much doctored and false information put forth in this thread alone that it is staggering.

                The Jews the victors, the world their victims.

Let us face the fact, the Jews, Masonry, and the Communists won that war, and as a result, we have the world in which we live in today.  We are thouroughly immersed in the depravity sufferd by pre war Germany, the Church has been rendered ineffective by its true and ancient enemy, and the west is ruled by the decendents of Babylon.

All things by the way, that the National socialists tried to destroy, but were themselves destroyed by the Devils from the east who our Lady warned would devour the world. Her words never heeded, the lessons never learned.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 07, 2017, 09:06:28 AM
It is amazing just how ingrained the Jєωιѕн narrative of WWII is in most western countries and particularly in Catholics. So many doped minds and lazy intellects. There has been so much doctored and false information put forth in this thread alone that it is staggering.
Are you claiming that Mit brennender Sorge is "doctored and false information"?
It is a papal encyclical written by the contemporary reigning pope.  I can think of no better guide to how we Catholics should view that time and place in history.

And I do not understand your reference to "the Jєωιѕн narrative" influencing Catholics.  Nothing like that was going on in this thread.  Nobody said anything about Hitler being evil because he killed 6 million Jews.  I would be surprised if most posters in this thread even thought that.  I know that I am skeptical of the "h0Ɩ0cαųst industry."

There is overwhelming evidence, some even from our own Pope, that Hitler tried to use the Church for his own ends and was a persecutor of Catholics.  It is not Jews who tell us that.  If anything, Jews downplay the sufferings of anyone else under Hitler.

If you have some evidence that anything said in this thread was false, let's see it.  Your empty assertions are unpersuasive.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JezusDeKoning on November 07, 2017, 09:27:57 AM
It is amazing just how ingrained the Jєωιѕн narrative of WWII is in most western countries and particularly in Catholics. So many doped minds and lazy intellects. There has been so much doctored and false information put forth in this thread alone that it is staggering.

                The Jews the victors, the world their victims.

Let us face the fact, the Jews, Masonry, and the Communists won that war, and as a result, we have the world in which we live in today.  We are thouroughly immersed in the depravity sufferd by pre war Germany, the Church has been rendered ineffective by its true and ancient enemy, and the west is ruled by the decendents of Babylon.

All things by the way, that the National socialists tried to destroy, but were themselves destroyed by the Devils from the east who our Lady warned would devour the world. Her words never heeded, the lessons never learned.
So you're basically endorsing nαzιsm.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JPaul on November 07, 2017, 10:01:44 AM
So you're basically endorsing nαzιsm.
Case in point!
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Pax Vobis on November 07, 2017, 10:19:11 AM
Still don't get your point, JPaul.  We're talking at a 100 ft level and you're at a "summary" 10,000 ft level.  Please apply your general point to the specific question at hand.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: klasG4e on November 07, 2017, 11:12:55 AM
What political assassinations in world history, if any, have been morally justified via Catholic criteria and where can we find the Catholic commentary which sets out said justification for such and such assassinations?

What is the Catholic criteria, if any, and where is it found which would justify political assassination of a nation's leader?
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 07, 2017, 11:28:30 AM
This poll thread was derailed since post #4. (Third reply)
How does looking at the Church teaching regarding the Reich government derail the thread?  How else would we determine whether the assassination attempt was justified?

It seems a lot more pertinent that posting pictures of German soldiers, which you apparently have no problem with.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on November 07, 2017, 11:41:34 AM
The man was a traitor and was part of a British plot. He was flipped. 


Hitler was a hero for Germany and ultimately Europe. Churchill was a damn traitor to his own people because he had Jєωιѕн puppet strings on him. That's how he came to power to begin with. 


Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 07, 2017, 11:46:02 AM
What political assassinations in world history, if any, have been morally justified via Catholic criteria and where can we find the Catholic commentary which sets out said justification for such and such assassinations?

What is the Catholic criteria, if any, and where is it found which would justify political assassination of a nation's leader?
The Catholic Encyclopedia has an article on the morality of tyrannicide that may shed some light on your questions: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15108a.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15108a.htm)

tl;dr version:  theological opinion is split
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: klasG4e on November 07, 2017, 12:06:28 PM
Thank you much Jaynek!  The article is indeed quite helpful! I have pasted it below for the sake of convenience.

Tyrannicide
Help support New Advent and get the full contents of this website as an instant download (https://gumroad.com/l/na2). Includes the Catholic Encyclopedia, Church Fathers, Summa, Bible and more — all for only $19.99...
Tyrannicide literally is the killing of a tyrant, and usually is taken to mean the killing of a tyrant by a private person for the common good. There are two classes of tyrants whose circuмstances are widely apart — tyrants by usurpation and tyrants by oppression. A tyrant by usurpation (tyrannus in titula) is one who unjustly displaces or attempts to displace the legitimate supreme ruler, and he can be considered in the act of usurpation or in subsequent peaceful possession of the supreme power. A tyrant by oppression (tyrannus in regimine) is a supreme ruler who uses his power arbitrarily and oppressively.

Tyrant by usurpation
While actually attacking the powers that be, a tyrant by usurpation is a traitor acting against the common weal, and, like any other criminal, may be put to death (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12565a.htm) by legitimate authority. If possible, the legitimate authority must use the ordinary forms of law (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09053a.htm) in condemning the tyrant to death, but if this is not possible, it can proceed informally and grant individuals (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07762a.htm) a mandate to inflict the capital punishment (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12565a.htm). St. Thomas (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14663b.htm) (In II Sent., d. XLIV, Q. ii, a. 2), Suarez (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14319a.htm) (Def. fidei, VI, iv, 7), and the majority of authorized theologians (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14580a.htm) say that private individuals (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07762a.htm) have a tacit mandate from legitimate authority to kill (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15108a.htm) the usurper when no other means of ridding the community of the tyrant are available. Some, however, e.g. Crolly (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04514c.htm) (De justitia, III, 207), hold that an express mandate is needed before a private person (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm) can take on himself the office of executioner of the usurping tyrant. All authorities hold that a private individual (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07762a.htm) as such, without an express or tacit mandate from authority, may not lawfully kill (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15108a.htm) an usurper unless he is actually his unjust aggressor (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01210a.htm). Moreover, it sometimes happens that an usurper is accorded the rights (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13055c.htm) of a belligerent, and then a private individual (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07762a.htm), who is a non-combatant, is excluded by international law (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09073a.htm) from the category of those to whom authority is given to kill (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15108a.htm) the tyrant (Crolly (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04514c.htm), loc. cit.).

If an usurper has already established his rule and peacefully reigns, until the prescriptive period has run its course the legitimate ruler can lawfully expel him by force if he is able to do so, and can punish him with death (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12565a.htm) for his offence. If, however, it is out of the legitimate ruler's power to re-establish his own authority, there is nothing for it but to acquiesce in the actual state of affairs and to refrain from merging the community in the miseries of useless warfare (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15546c.htm). In these circuмstances, subjects are bound to obey the just laws (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09053a.htm) of the realm, and can lawfully take an oath (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11176a.htm) of obedience to the de facto ruler, if the oath (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11176a.htm) is not of such a nature as to acknowledge the legitimacy of the usurper's authority (cf. Brief (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03052b.htm) of Pius VIII (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12134a.htm), 29 Sept., 1830). This teaching is altogether different from the view of those who put forward the doctrine (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05075b.htm) of accomplished facts, as it has come to be called, and who maintain that the actual peaceful possessor of the ruling authority is also legitimate ruler. This is nothing more or less than the glorification of successful robbery (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14564b.htm).

Tyrant by oppression
Looking on a tyrant by oppression as a public enemy, many authorities claimed for his subjects the right of putting him to death (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12565a.htm) in defence of the common good. Amongst these were John of Salisbury (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08478b.htm) in the twelfth century (Polycraticus III, 15; IV, 1; VIII, 17), and John Parvus (Jehan Petit) (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08482b.htm) in the fifteenth century. The Council of Constance (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04288a.htm) (1415) condemned as contrary to faith (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) and morals (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10559a.htm) the following proposition:
Quote
"Any vassal or subject can lawfully and meritoriously kill, and ought to kill, any tyrant. He may even, for this purpose, avail himself of ambushes, and wily expressions of affection or of adulation, notwithstanding any oath (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11176a.htm) or pact imposed upon him by the tyrant, and without waiting for the sentence or order of any judge." (Session XV)
Subsequently a few Catholics (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm) defended, with many limitations and safeguards, the right of subjects to kill a tyrannical ruler. Foremost amongst these was the Spanish (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14169b.htm) Jesuit (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14081a.htm) Mariana (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09659b.htm). In his book, "De rege et regis institutione" (Toledo, 1599), he held that people ought to bear with a tyrant as long as possible, and to take action only when his oppression surpassed all bounds. They ought to come together and give him a warning; this being of no avail they ought to declare him a public enemy and put him to death (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12565a.htm). If no public judgment could be given, and if the people were unanimous, any subject might, if possible, kill him by open, but not by secret means. The book was dedicated to Philip III of Spain (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14169b.htm) and was written at the request of his tutor Garcias de Loaysa, who afterwards became Bishop (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm) of Toledo. It was published at Toledo in the printing-office of Pedro Rodrigo, printer to the king, with the approbation (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01656b.htm) of Pedro de Oñ, Provincial (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12514b.htm) of the Mercedarians (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10197b.htm) of Madrid (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09516a.htm), and with the permission of Stephen Hojeda, visitor of the Society of Jesus (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14081a.htm) in the Province of Toledo (see JUAN MARIANA (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09659b.htm)). Most unfairly the Jesuit Order (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14081a.htm) has been blamed for the teaching of Mariana (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09659b.htm). As a matter of fact, Mariana (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09659b.htm) stated that his teaching on tyrannicide was his personal opinion, and immediately on the publication of the book the Jesuit (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14081a.htm) General Aquaviva ordered that it be corrected. He also on 6 July, 1610, forbade any member of the order to teach publicly or privately that it is lawful to attempt the life of a tyrant.

Though Catholic doctrine (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05075b.htm) condemns tyrannicide as opposed to the natural law (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09076a.htm), formerly great theologians (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14580a.htm) of the Church (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) like St. Thomas (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14663b.htm) (II-II, Q. xlii, a.2), Suarez (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14319a.htm) (Def. fidei, VI, iv, 15), and Bañez, O.P. (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02247a.htm) (De justitia et jure, Q. lxiv, a. 3), permitted rebellion against oppressive rulers when the tyranny had become extreme and when no other means of safety were available. This merely carried to its logical (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09324a.htm) conclusion the doctrine (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05075b.htm) of the Middle Ages (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10285c.htm) that the supreme ruling authority comes from God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) through the people for the public good. As the people immediately give sovereignty to the ruler, so the people can deprive him of his sovereignty when he has used his power oppressively. Many authorities, e.g. Suarez (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14319a.htm) (Def. fiedei, VI, iv, 18), held that the State, but not private persons (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm), could, if necessary (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10733a.htm), condemn the tyrant to death (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12565a.htm). In recent times Catholic (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm) authors, for the most part, deny that subjects have the right (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13055c.htm) to rebel against and depose an unjust (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08010c.htm) ruler, except in the case when the ruler was appointed under the condition that he would lose his power if he abused it. In proof (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12454c.htm) of this teaching they appeal to the Syllabus of Pius IX (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12134b.htm), in which this proposition is condemned: "It is lawful to refuse obedience to legitimate princes, and even to rebel" (prop. 63). While denying the right of rebellion in the strict sense whose direct object is the deposition of the tyrannical ruler, many Catholic (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm) writers, such as Crolly (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04514c.htm), Cathrein, de Bie, Zigliara (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15759a.htm), admit the right of subjects not only to adopt an attitude of passive resistance against unjust (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08010c.htm) laws (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09053a.htm) but also in extreme cases to assume a state of active defensive resistance against the actual aggression of a legitimate, but oppressive ruler.

Many of the Reformers were more or less in favour of tyrannicide. Luther held that the whole community could condemn the tyrant to death (Sämmtliche Werke", LXII, Frankfort-on-the-Main and Erlangen, 1854, 201, 206). Melanchthon (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10151a.htm) said that the killing of a tyrant is the most agreeable offering that man can make to God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) (Corp. Ref., III, Halle, 1836, 1076). The Calvinist (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03198a.htm) writer styled Junius Brutus held that individual subjects have no right (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13055c.htm) to kill a legitimate tyrant, but that resistance must be authorized by a representative council of the people (Vindiciae contra Tyrannos, p. 45). John Knox (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08680a.htm) affirmed that it was the duty (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05215a.htm) of the nobility, judges, rulers, and people of England (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05445a.htm) to condemn Queen Mary (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09766a.htm) to death (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12565a.htm) (Appellation).
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: St Ignatius on November 07, 2017, 12:15:06 PM
For all those who despise Hitler for all the wrong reasons, I would highly recommend them to read this book...  

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/417E1WJXYXL._AC_SY400_.jpg)

Available to read online here... (https://archive.org/stream/Irving_David_-_Hitlers_War_and_the_War_Path#page/n1/mode/1up)
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on November 07, 2017, 12:31:03 PM
For all those who despise Hitler for all the wrong reasons, I would highly recommend them to read this book...  

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/417E1WJXYXL._AC_SY400_.jpg)

Available to read online here... (https://archive.org/stream/Irving_David_-_Hitlers_War_and_the_War_Path#page/n1/mode/1up)
:applause:
Fantastic book that I'm reading again right now. Anything by Irving is top shelf. 
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JPaul on November 07, 2017, 12:38:51 PM
My understanding is that Hitler was hated by all his generals and he was responsible for military policies that cost many German lives.  He was sleeping when D-Day got under way and everyone was afraid to wake him because he was such a vindictive bastard.  So they could not get authorization to move Panzer divisions into place.  He basically liquidated Rommel.  He was totally inept.  And yet he would not negotiate peace.  If ever there was cause to put down a rabid dog, this was it.  A Catholic bishop approved.  Stauffenberg may not be a hero but I believe he acted out of a love for his country.  I don't see how a successful assassination of Hitler would have done more harm to Germany than what Hitler did in the final year of the war.  Good riddance to that cowardly pervert.
Hitler was not hated by all of his generals. That is false. He was not inept and made many military decisions based upon the advice of his military staff. Some he made unilaterally or with his close circle.
Stauffenberg was at best disloyal. It was not for him to decide the military policy for his superiors but to carry them out or refuse to so according to his conscience
Planting a bomb in a crowded tent of his countrymen was cowardly, and and not the act of a Catholic conscience, and their is also the issue of collaboration with the allies which would make him a traitor and place him in league with the Communists and Masons. That is who would have benefitted from Hitles death, and to the detriment of the German people.  The post war record attests to this with millions dying after the end of the war.
There were over twenty peace proposals made by his government, both before and during the war.  One even included the offer to return to the pre-war boundaries. All were rejected by the Allies. the claim that he would not negotiate is not in accordance with the facts and therefore false.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 07, 2017, 12:43:54 PM
Irving's book is famous for its sympathetic view of Hitler.  I do not understand why Catholics are showing so much sympathy to a persecutor of the Church.  It's as if we had people telling us to think more positively about Nero and Diocletian.

We can't just dismiss the accusations of persecution as propaganda.  We have this from the pope of the time.  There is no reason to question that the persecution happened.  Somehow, we have posters here who seem to think the persecution of Catholics was OK.

Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on November 07, 2017, 01:01:45 PM
Irving's book is famous for its sympathetic view of Hitler.  I do not understand why Catholics are showing so much sympathy to a persecutor of the Church.  It's as if we had people telling us to think more positively about Nero and Diocletian.

We can't just dismiss the accusations of persecution as propaganda.  We have this from the pope of the time.  There is no reason to question that the persecution happened.  Somehow, we have posters here who seem to think the persecution of Catholics was OK.
Have you read the book?
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 07, 2017, 01:06:59 PM
Have you read the book?
No and I have no intention of doing so.  I have limited time available for reading and that is not something I want to use it on.

Do you deny that the book is sympathetic to Hitler?  Unless I was wrong about that, my point still stands.  Catholics should not be fostering sympathy to a persecutor of the Church.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: klasG4e on November 07, 2017, 01:13:27 PM
Fiction:   A holy Catholic priest was walking in Berlin one day in the midst of the horrors of WW II when he was approached in the open by a group of fallen away and secretly and viciously anti-Catholic individuals who wanted to deceitfully gain testimony against him to be given to either Church authorities or to German government authorities depending on how the priest would reply.  "Oh, holy priest we beg of you to advise us in the midst of our confusion.  Is it lawful to support Hitler or should we follow our morally justifiable Catholic instincts and conspire to do away with him.  The holy priest sensing their wicked intrigues answered, "Render unto Hitler that which is owing to Hitler and to God that which is owing to God."
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on November 07, 2017, 01:23:58 PM
No and I have no intention of doing so.  I have limited time available for reading and that is not something I want to use it on.

Do you deny that the book is sympathetic to Hitler?  Unless I was wrong about that, my point still stands.  Catholics should not be fostering sympathy to a persecutor of the Church.
So you have no credibility in making your comments about the book. 
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 07, 2017, 01:36:01 PM
So you have no credibility in making your comments about the book.
I said that the book was famous for being sympathetic to Hitler.  This is something that a person could know without reading the book.  I did do the necessary research to discover the book's reputation and my comment was quite credible.

If you have some evidence that the book's reputation is undeserved please present it.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JPaul on November 07, 2017, 01:40:54 PM
Irving's book is famous for its sympathetic view of Hitler.  I do not understand why Catholics are showing so much sympathy to a persecutor of the Church.  It's as if we had people telling us to think more positively about Nero and Diocletian.

We can't just dismiss the accusations of persecution as propaganda.  We have this from the pope of the time.  There is no reason to question that the persecution happened.  Somehow, we have posters here who seem to think the persecution of Catholics was OK.
Jaynek, it is sad to say but to those who hold distorted opinions of this historical period, anyone, who would give the National Socialists or Hitler a fair and objective hearing and accounting will be seen as being "sympathetic" to that which you have predetermined is a great evil. And this is done without consideration to all information which can be found and not a selective segment which paints a one dimensional assessment of these subjects. The Jews have labeled Irving as being sympathetic because he was honest about what he could confirm through his research. Regardless of that, he remains a sound and reliable historian in the bulk of his work.
There were hundreds of thousands of Catholics who were incinerated in Germany, hundreds of Churches and convents reduced to rubble, tens of millions of Catholics who were murdered and starved in Ukraine.
One needs to discern the proportion and intensity of persecution before declaring who it was thyat was truly the persecutor of Catholics at this time. It seemed to have escaped the Vatican's attention as well. 
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: klasG4e on November 07, 2017, 01:51:46 PM
Irving's book is famous for its sympathetic view of Hitler.  I do not understand why Catholics are showing so much sympathy to a persecutor of the Church.  It's as if we had people telling us to think more positively about Nero and Diocletian.

We can't just dismiss the accusations of persecution as propaganda.  We have this from the pope of the time.  There is no reason to question that the persecution happened.  Somehow, we have posters here who seem to think the persecution of Catholics was OK.
I think a much greater Catholic case for assassination if one was to be made would be for an assassination by a Russian national of Stalin.  That said, I would like to mention a book I purchased a few years back at -- get ready -- the SSPX seminary bookstore at Winona!  It's quite an amazing and highly docuмented book.  I am surprised there is not more publicity about it.  The blurb for the nearly 600 page book describes it simply as: "The writings and speeches of the Pope and the German hierarchy, the official decrees and instructions of the government, and the speeches and teachings of the nαzι Party."
See The Persecution of the Catholic Church in the Third Reich  (https://www.amazon.com/Persecution-Catholic-Church-Third-Reich/dp/1589801377)
(https://www.amazon.com/Persecution-Catholic-Church-Third-Reich/dp/1589801377)
(https://www.amazon.com/Persecution-Catholic-Church-Third-Reich/dp/1589801377)
(https://www.amazon.com/Persecution-Catholic-Church-Third-Reich/dp/1589801377)
(https://www.amazon.com/Persecution-Catholic-Church-Third-Reich/dp/1589801377)

 (https://www.amazon.com/Persecution-Catholic-Church-Third-Reich/dp/1589801377)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51KwqlQ6pxL._SX313_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg) (https://www.amazon.com/Persecution-Catholic-Church-Third-Reich/dp/1589801377)
(https://www.amazon.com/Persecution-Catholic-Church-Third-Reich/dp/1589801377)
(https://www.amazon.com/Persecution-Catholic-Church-Third-Reich/dp/1589801377)
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 07, 2017, 01:56:48 PM
Jaynek, it is sad to say but to those who hold distorted opinions of this historical period, anyone, who would give the National Socialists or Hitler a fair and objective hearing and accounting will be seen as being "sympathetic" to that which you have predetermined is a great evil.
Premise 1: Source that I have a duty to believe (papal encyclical) says Hitler et al. persecuted the Church.

Premise 2: Persecuting the Church is a great evil.

Conclusion: Therefore I believe that Hitler & Co. committed a great evil.

Most of the pro-Hitler arguments in this thread have been based on claiming that other people were worse or that Hitler did some good things too.  These are illogical and unconvincing.

I would need to see evidence that Pius XI was wrong in his official teaching docuмent along with a good explanation of how he could be wrong.  Nobody has posted anything like that.  
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: klasG4e on November 07, 2017, 01:58:06 PM
Let's try again.  It came out just fine in my preview of same.

https://www.amazon.com/Persecution-Catholic-Church-Third-Reich/dp/1589801377 (https://www.amazon.com/Persecution-Catholic-Church-Third-Reich/dp/1589801377)
 (https://www.amazon.com/Persecution-Catholic-Church-Third-Reich/dp/1589801377)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51KwqlQ6pxL._SX313_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: klasG4e on November 07, 2017, 02:01:36 PM
I think a much greater Catholic case for assassination if one was to be made would be for an assassination by a Russian national of Stalin.  That said, I would like to mention a book I purchased a few years back at -- get ready -- the SSPX seminary bookstore at Winona!  It's quite an amazing and highly docuмented book.  I am surprised there is not more publicity about it.  The blurb for the nearly 600 page book describes it simply as: "The writings and speeches of the Pope and the German hierarchy, the official decrees and instructions of the government, and the speeches and teachings of the nαzι Party."
See The Persecution of the Catholic Church in the Third Reich  (https://www.amazon.com/Persecution-Catholic-Church-Third-Reich/dp/1589801377)
(https://www.amazon.com/Persecution-Catholic-Church-Third-Reich/dp/1589801377)
(https://www.amazon.com/Persecution-Catholic-Church-Third-Reich/dp/1589801377)
(https://www.amazon.com/Persecution-Catholic-Church-Third-Reich/dp/1589801377)
(https://www.amazon.com/Persecution-Catholic-Church-Third-Reich/dp/1589801377)

 (https://www.amazon.com/Persecution-Catholic-Church-Third-Reich/dp/1589801377)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51KwqlQ6pxL._SX313_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg) (https://www.amazon.com/Persecution-Catholic-Church-Third-Reich/dp/1589801377)
(https://www.amazon.com/Persecution-Catholic-Church-Third-Reich/dp/1589801377)
(https://www.amazon.com/Persecution-Catholic-Church-Third-Reich/dp/1589801377)
I had a lot of trouble with the link.  In any event, the book which can be seen at Amazon is titled:
The Persecution of the Catholic Church in the Third Reich
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: klasG4e on November 07, 2017, 02:08:55 PM
 Persecution of the Catholic Church in the Third Reich, The Paperback – July 31, 2003

Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JPaul on November 07, 2017, 03:00:52 PM
In the first place, discount the fact that Stauffenberg was a Catholic.  Catholicism was not his motivation for taking part in his betrayal of his oaths and countymen. His was a case of disloyalty and the attempted reckless murder of his fellow officers.
I think that precludes any partisan hero worship that might be coming his way.

The fact of the matter is, that Germany was at war with the Bolshevik communists inside and outside of its borders and was at war with Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and the тαℓмυdic Jews as represented by the "allies". These facts were germane to what was transpiring at the time.  At such a moment and in such a context, I believe that it is clear where Von Stauffenberg's loyalties should have been as his actions and those of other contributed to both Germany's and Christendom's defeat at the hands of these Satanic enemies and  we and the Church are now enslaved by them. No, he was not a Catholic hero,  Leon Degrelle was a Catholic hero who fought for justice, his Faith, and his folk.


Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 07, 2017, 03:23:05 PM
In the first place, discount the fact that Stauffenberg was a Catholic.  Catholicism was not his motivation for taking part in his betrayal of his oaths and countymen. His was a case of disloyalty and the attempted reckless murder of his fellow officers.
I think that precludes any partisan hero worship that might be coming his way.

The fact of the matter is, that Germany was at war with the Bolshevik communists inside and outside of its borders and was at war with Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and the тαℓмυdic Jews as represented by the "allies". These facts were germane to what was transpiring at the time.  At such a moment and in such a context, I believe that it is clear where Von Stauffenberg's loyalties should have been as his actions and those of other contributed to both Germany's and Christendom's defeat at the hands of these Satanic enemies and  we and the Church are now enslaved by them. No, he was not a Catholic hero,  Leon Degrelle was a Catholic hero who fought for justice, his Faith, and his folk.
How do you know what his motivation was?  I have seen sources which state that he consulted with a Cardinal before making his decision.  That suggests his faith was a factor.

And if you claim it was not faith, it would be more convincing if you proposed an alternative motivation.  Is there evidence he did it for money?  Was bombing people his hobby?  This was a rather extreme course of action.  There are not a lot of things that could motivate a person to do such a thing.  A serious Catholic believing he was protecting the common good from a tyrant is a plausible scenario and you have not offered a competing one.

Yet again you comment on how bad Hitler's enemies were.  You seem to be implying that this makes it OK for him to persecute the Church. Is that really what you think?

Your defense of Hitler seems to be to describe who his enemies were. But the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend, especially when he is obviously causing me harm.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Pax Vobis on November 07, 2017, 03:30:19 PM
JPaul,
I would argue that Christendom was already HIGHLY under attack and impaired WELL before Hitler even came into power and before WWI.  You seem to be arguing of the "lesser of 2 evils" being the nαzιs, therefore Stauffenberg should have supported them.  As a german noble, before the nobility's lands and titles were stripped from them, they were responsible for the economic and social welfare of their counties, in which hundreds of germans lived.  The nobles were like mini-kings, who took care of their citizens and had a responsibility in running the overall govt of united germany. 

Stauffenberg, based on his letters and stories from his sister in law, was very catholic and his love of country was based on christian ideals, and his duty to his citizens.  I find it hard to fathom that he was trying to help the communists by killing hitler, as you insinuate.  You are assuming that he knew the full evils and dangers of russia at the time and also that he had the luxury to know what was going on during the war, at a macro level.  My perception is that his loyalties were to his faith and country, first, which is why he tried to restore the monarchy multiple times. 

Making the argument that trying to overthrow hitler was bad because it helped russia is an argument one can only make AFTER the war is over.  Hindsight is 20/20. 
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Pax Vobis on November 07, 2017, 03:37:51 PM
Quote
Catholicism was not his motivation for taking part in his betrayal of his oaths and countymen. His was a case of disloyalty and the attempted reckless murder of his fellow officers.
Betrayal of what oath?  His oath to the SS?  His countrymen were the peasants of Germany, not the nαzιs, who were an extreme political faction who hijacked the elections.  He owed no loyalty to those who destroyed the catholic way of life, who subverted morality, who stole lands from the nobles, who dethroned the king and who eventually imprisoned him.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JPaul on November 07, 2017, 04:02:14 PM
JPaul,
I would argue that Christendom was already HIGHLY under attack and impaired WELL before Hitler even came into power and before WWI.  You seem to be arguing of the "lesser of 2 evils" being the nαzιs, therefore Stauffenberg should have supported them.  As a german noble, before the nobility's lands and titles were stripped from them, they were responsible for the economic and social welfare of their counties, in which hundreds of germans lived.  The nobles were like mini-kings, who took care of their citizens and had a responsibility in running the overall govt of united germany.

Stauffenberg, based on his letters and stories from his sister in law, was very catholic and his love of country was based on christian ideals, and his duty to his citizens.  I find it hard to fathom that he was trying to help the communists by killing hitler, as you insinuate.  You are assuming that he knew the full evils and dangers of russia at the time and also that he had the luxury to know what was going on during the war, at a macro level.  My perception is that his loyalties were to his faith and country, first, which is why he tried to restore the monarchy multiple times.

Making the argument that trying to overthrow hitler was bad because it helped russia is an argument one can only make AFTER the war is over.  Hindsight is 20/20.
WWII was indeed a Holy War between Christian Europe and Jews, Masonry, and Communism. Even though Christian Europe was already compromised this war was decisive in what shape the future would take.
Which was the greater threat and the greater evil is self evident. Christendom was surely suffering before the war. It was evident in how political the Church and the popes had become, for example the abandonment of the Christeros by the pope and the Bishops. We never did see a like encyclical against the Masonic regime and Callas. The Church and Catholic Mexico is still under their yoke today.
Hitler knew the dangers of the Bolshevik threat and was very public in his warnings about it.  No officer in the NS military could have been unaware.  Many many volunteers in the Waffen SS from many countries saw the danger and fought for Germany on the Eastern front. The Jєωιѕн press hid this information as did the allies but it was an unavoidable reality to anyone in the military.
If Von Stauffenberg helped these dark forces it would have been by default not by intent. I do not know if he was involved with the allies or not as has been alleged but will research that further. He was indeed interested in restoring the position and influence of the Aristocracy which had slipped under the NS govt.
Hindsight, is what we are living under today, but that reality was clear to predict if one experienced pre-war Wiemar Germany. There was no way to save Germany, its fate had already been decided. Read the earlier book by the Jєωιѕн author name "Germany Must Perish" .  there was no doubt to the outcome if Germany was defeated.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Pax Vobis on November 07, 2017, 04:16:20 PM
Giving him the benefit of the doubt, considering he tried to restore the monarchy, could it not have been that he thought by Hitler's death they could restore the banished king, thereby saving Germany?  That seems to have been his intent, which is a good and catholic one. 

If you are arguing that his attempt on Hitler wounded Germany, and caused her to fall to russia, I find that very weak.  Germany's society was an immoral timebomb, waiting to fall.  Their economy was destroyed.  The only attempt at restoring catholicism was through the monarchy.

If you want to argue that the monarchy wouldn't have survived, and Germany still would've fallen to russia, fine.  But, we'll never know...  I'd vote to try to restore catholicism vs defending an immoral govt, which will eventually fail anyway.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JPaul on November 07, 2017, 04:17:15 PM
Betrayal of what oath?  His oath to the SS?  His countrymen were the peasants of Germany, not the nαzιs, who were an extreme political faction who hijacked the elections.  He owed no loyalty to those who destroyed the catholic way of life, who subverted morality, who stole lands from the nobles, who dethroned the king and who eventually imprisoned him.
This was indeed what happened in Wiemar Germany and after WWI. The Catholic way of life was degraded long before Hitler was a whisper. And Hitler did not do what you charge, it had already been accomplished.
A man's oath is his Honor and the National Socialist were also his countrymen, and the elections were not hijacked. They were soundly elected as the legal government. This has always been disputed by the Communists but the fact remains.
The subversion of Germany's morality and the insertion of gross depravity was almost solely a Jєωιѕн effort, both between the wars and after WWII.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Pax Vobis on November 07, 2017, 04:24:27 PM
Quote
and the elections were not hijacked. They were soundly elected as the legal government.
Yes, they were sounded elected, in the end.  But before Hitler was even imprisoned, Germany had many years of "political hand wringing" where elections were hijaked, in the sense that they are today - with lies, arm twisting, scandalous "compromises" and voting scandals.  Hitler's party was the end result of many years of political manuevering.  Just because Hitler was soundly elected doesn't mean his platform was soundly supported; by that time, many of the people had no decent choice in candidates (much like the US for the last 50 years).
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JPaul on November 07, 2017, 04:38:36 PM
Giving him the benefit of the doubt, considering he tried to restore the monarchy, could it not have been that he thought by Hitler's death they could restore the banished king, thereby saving Germany?  That seems to have been his intent, which is a good and catholic one.

If you are arguing that his attempt on Hitler wounded Germany, and caused her to fall to russia, I find that very weak.  Germany's society was an immoral timebomb, waiting to fall.  Their economy was destroyed.  The only attempt at restoring catholicism was through the monarchy.

If you want to argue that the monarchy wouldn't have survived, and Germany still would've fallen to russia, fine.  But, we'll never know...  I'd vote to try to restore catholicism vs defending an immoral govt, which will eventually fail anyway.
PV, the future of any restoration of Monarchy had also been pre-determined. It would not be allowed.
The last decendant of the Christian Roman Imperial Emperors was ritually and satanically carried out in Russia right at the time of Our Lady's dire warnings.
Do you imagine that the тαℓмυdic Bolsheviks would tolerate a restoration in Germany?
The destruction of European Christian monarchies was systematically and sequentially carried out by the same dark forces. These dark principalities and powers were never beholden to the political systems of men. 
As for morality, you need to research and see what an immoral sewer Germany had become.
Under ther NS, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity was outlawed, the Lodges were closed and Masonry banned, decadent art, plays, music, and sculpture were destroyed and thier creators shown the door out of Germany.  Marriage and families were encouraged and subsidized. Usury was banned and Germany was once again in control of its currency and its destiny. This is not exactly as you have described things.
Even accounting for the unsucessful or bad things involved with this regime, that they raised the standard of living, morality, and social order of Germany in a short 3 years, should at least give a reasonable man pause before he condemns the whole thing as evil and a failure.
 
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 07, 2017, 04:45:26 PM
Under ther NS, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity was outlawed, the Lodges were closed and Masonry banned, decadent art, plays, music, and sculpture were destroyed and thier creators shown the door out of Germany.  Marriage and families were encouraged and subsidized. Usury was banned and Germany was once again in control of its currency and its destiny. This is not exactly as you have described things.
Even accounting for the unsucessful or bad things involved with this regime, that they raised the standard of living, morality, and social order of Germany in a short 3 years, should at least give a reasonable man pause before he condemns the whole thing as evil and a failure.
 
One of the bad things involved with this regime was the persecution of Catholics.  You really sound like you think it was worth it.
This regime was systematically trying to destroy/subvert Catholicism. 

How can you weigh "standard of living, morality, and social order" against that?  These are not even good things when they are done in a godless way.  
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Pax Vobis on November 07, 2017, 04:57:34 PM
Quote
Do you imagine that the тαℓмυdic Bolsheviks would tolerate a restoration in Germany?
You give them too much credit.  The devil can't just do anything he wants.  God can protect anyone He desires.  We can't avoid an idealistic, catholic goal simply because we *think* it won't work.  If that was the attitude, then we might as well have surrendered before the battle of Lepanto...

As far as any good the nαzιs did in Germany, I'm not a WW2 historian by any means.  I'll take your word for it.  Did Hitler double cross political powers, much like Napoleon?  Probably.  Does that make him good?  No.  He was the lesser of 2 evils, I say.

Honest question, because I don't know - Was Hitler involved in the occult?  Seems there's a lot of evidence to say yes.  Did hitler die in argentina?  Seems the answer is yes.  So, if these are both true, even with the "good laws" he passed, at best, he's a hypocrite who played the germans.  At worse, he's a satanist who was involved in "in fighting" between masonic sects, (i.e. germany vs russia) to see who would rule the east.  Again, lesser of 2 evils.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on November 07, 2017, 07:24:26 PM
I said that the book was famous for being sympathetic to Hitler.  This is something that a person could know without reading the book.  I did do the necessary research to discover the book's reputation and my comment was quite credible.

If you have some evidence that the book's reputation is undeserved please present it.
Your comment is based on others opinions on a very sensitive subject. It's akin to the present political climate that anything to the right of the leftist position is "racist/nαzι/white supremacist".

My evidence is that I actually read the book. It is very well researched by the man who has helped define what it really means to be a historian rather than quote other historians books as their source. Naturally, anyone that presents the events in a manner that defies the mainstream view will be chastised as a "nαzι supporter". Really, it's childish and nonsense.

I read years ago William Shirer's book while waiting for my mothers chemo treatments. It struck me even then, and I was a believer in the normally presented narrative, that it was terribly biased. Firstly, Shirer, who is a Jew, should never have been given the task of doing it because of his ethnicity and the possibility of being biased. Secondly, Shirer chose to only use the prosecution's evidence from the Nuremberg trials for his writing and omitted all facts from the defense. In other words, whatever was used to paint the Germans in the worst possible light. Read Irving's book on the Nuremberg trials. It shows what a travesty that that trial really was.

The NSDAP did not persecute the Church. They persecuted subversives that happened to be Catholic. I have written extensively on this in another thread.
https://www.cathinfo.com/art-and-literature-for-catholics/catholics-and-hitler/
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on November 07, 2017, 07:26:53 PM
You give them too much credit.  The devil can't just do anything he wants.  God can protect anyone He desires.  We can't avoid an idealistic, catholic goal simply because we *think* it won't work.  If that was the attitude, then we might as well have surrendered before the battle of Lepanto...

As far as any good the nαzιs did in Germany, I'm not a WW2 historian by any means.  I'll take your word for it.  Did Hitler double cross political powers, much like Napoleon?  Probably.  Does that make him good?  No.  He was the lesser of 2 evils, I say.

Honest question, because I don't know - Was Hitler involved in the occult?  Seems there's a lot of evidence to say yes.  Did hitler die in argentina?  Seems the answer is yes.  So, if these are both true, even with the "good laws" he passed, at best, he's a hypocrite who played the germans.  At worse, he's a satanist who was involved in "in fighting" between masonic sects, (i.e. germany vs russia) to see who would rule the east.  Again, lesser of 2 evils.
The 'ol occult canard. I was wondering when this would be rolled out. It's total rubbish. But, as you said, you're no WWII historian, so I don't blame you.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 07, 2017, 09:15:55 PM
The NSDAP did not persecute the Church. They persecuted subversives that happened to be Catholic. I have written extensively on this in another thread.
https://www.cathinfo.com/art-and-literature-for-catholics/catholics-and-hitler/
Pius XI wrote an encyclical that said they did persecute the Church.  That carries a lot more weight than anything you could write.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on November 07, 2017, 09:30:35 PM
Pius XI wrote an encyclical that said they did persecute the Church.  That carries a lot more weight than anything you could write.
What encyclical are you referring to?
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Incredulous on November 07, 2017, 09:52:52 PM
Persecution of the Catholic Church in the Third Reich, The Paperback – July 31, 2003

  • Paperback: 592 pages
  • Publisher: Pelican Publishing (July 31, 2003)
  • Language: English
  • ISBN-10: 1589801377
  • ISBN-13: 978-1589801370
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α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м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)
(https://g.christianbook.com/dg/product/ingram/w185/801372.jpg)
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Incredulous on November 07, 2017, 10:02:18 PM
The 'ol occult canard. I was wondering when this would be rolled out. It's total rubbish. But, as you said, you're no WWII historian, so I don't blame you.
Here, I'm rolling it out, with references: 

Hitler was brought into the occult and mentored by jew.

Link (http://www.traditioninaction.org/History/G_006_nαzιGnostic05.html)
nαzιsm, a Gnostic-Manichean Sect - Part V

The Strange Personality of Adolf Hitler 

Cunha Alvarenga
Alfred Rosenberg was truly the brains behind the nαzι Gnosis. He was born in 1893 in Estonia to a family of Baltic Germans. He received his engineering doctorate in Moscow in early 1917. One year later, fleeing the Communist Revolution he emigrated to Germany.


(http://www.traditioninaction.org/History/HistImages/G_006_Rosemberg.jpg)
Rosenberg, left, present at Hitler's side from the beginning
Always with a theosophical bent, Rosenberg entered the Thule Society, the occult group we mentioned in a previous article (http://www.traditioninaction.org/History/G_005_nαzιGnostic04.html). For his remarkable learning, far surpassing the average mediocre mind, he caught the attention of Dietrich Eckart, also a member of the Thule group and editor of the People’s Observer

It was Eckart who introduced him to Hitler at the beginning of his political career. Rosenberg was one of the first to enlist in the nαzι Party and “his influence was decisive in the formation of the future ‘Lord of Germany,’ in whom he even further instilled anti-Semitism and the proclivity to the occult” (apud Hitler and the Cathar Tradition, p. 262). 

Anti-Catholic bend of nαzιsm 

In his key-work The Myth of the 20th Century, the most influential nαzι text after Hitler’s Mein Kampf, Rosenberg rejects the Old Testament; in the New Testament, he repudiates principally the Epistles of St. Paul. For this theoretician of nαzιsm “there is a negative Christianity and a positive Christianity. The former is linked to the image of the crucified Jesus, the latter to the image of the living Jesus” (ibid., p. 264). Rosenberg does not consider early Christianity as an enemy, since it exalts the personality of the living Jesus, but - following the path of the Gnostics to whom he adheres - he rejects the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Our Savior as mystifications of the Eastern mentality.


(http://www.traditioninaction.org/History/HistImages/G_006_God.jpg)
A pantheist concept of God akin to the Gnostic myths
His hatred of the Catholic Church as a social body is strongly avowed throughout his book. The notion of a one universal Church, whose dogma and morals should influence the life of the State – its culture, art and science – is for him “the remains of the chaos of those men who poisoned our minds.” From this perspective, he approves Martin Luther as an important step – but one that did not go far enough – in reasserting the “Aryan spirit” and setting up the idea of nationalism against the universal monarchy of the Pope” (apud Hitler and the Cathar Tradition, p. 264). 

To the philosopher Rosenthal, “every event is significant and expresses the eternal fight between the forces of light and darkness. From his perspective, all the heretics, the Cathars above all, are considered heroes in a tragedy of cosmic dimension. In this gigantic battle of the German-Nordic peoples of Europe against Roman universalism and conquering Catholicism, the history of the Albigensians, Valdenses, Cathars, early reformers, Huguenots and Lutherans play an avidly epic role” (pp. 264-265). 

According to his work The Myth of the 20th Century, the German mind rejects the static concept of one God, Sovereign of the Universe, and breaks with the Old Testament. With this rejection the German mind follows the spirit of Luther who “was liberated from the Jews and their lies.” To this cascade of blasphemies, the intellectual of nαzιsm adds that death should not be considered, as taught by Christianity, as the wages of sin (Rom 6:23); on the contrary it is a simple natural phenomenon that “does not disturb the eternal process that existed before us and will continue to exist after us” (p.268). Clearly these pantheist ideas are not original, but copied from the neo-Platonic School of Alexandria.


Quote
[Note: Philo of Alexandria, 25BC-50AC, made a synthesis of the Jєωιѕн Kabbalah and the Hellenist Gnosis of his time, considered one of the most encompassing works of Gnosis. It is normally referred to as the Gnostic School of Alexandria or neo-Platonic School of Alexandria. It was the basis for many heresies in the first centuries of the Church.]
The preternatural presence in Hitler’s life


(http://www.traditioninaction.org/History/HistImages/G_006_Gaze.jpg)
A gaze that speaks of his tendency to the occult
About the enigmatic personality of Hitler, Jean M. Angebert comments: “What is certain is that the prophetic, mystic and visionary aspects of this modern warlock presents to the world the hypocritical physiognomy of a harsh, insensible man who is unscrupulously able to condemn to death any person who stands in his way” (p.279). 

Either with individuals or before a multitude, Hitler revealed a great hypnotic power. Someone affirmed that he was possessed by invisible powers, his “unknown superiors” referred to by Hermann Rauschning. In his work Hitler Told Me, he describes the Führer as an antenna in touch with frightening, superior beings: 

“One of his domestics told me that Hitler often awakened at night shouting convulsively for help. He used to remain paralyzed sitting at the edge of his bed, overcome by a panic that made the whole bed shake. He shouted incomprehensible and clipped phrases, breathing with difficulty as if he were being suffocated. The same person reported one of these episodes to me with details that I normally would not have believed if the person had not been so certain. 


(http://www.traditioninaction.org/History/HistImages/G_006_Demagogue.jpg)
Above, an hypnothic capacity exerted through theatrical skills. Below, speaking to a mesmerized multitude.

(http://www.traditioninaction.org/History/HistImages/G_006_Crowd.jpg)
“During one of these crises, Hitler was standing in the middle of his room tottering, gazing around him with a hallucinated stare. Then he roared: “It is him! It is him! He is here!” His lips were blue and the sweat poured from his face in large drips. Suddenly he started to spell out numbers without meaning, then words and parts of phrases. It was horrible. He used bizarre and utterly strange words. Then he became quiet, although his lips continued to move. Someone began to rub him and gave him something to drink. Suddenly he roared again: “There! There in the corner! Who is there?” He pounded his foot on the floor and continued to roar. Someone told him that there was nothing unusual there; then little by little he calmed down” (Hermann Rauschning, Hitler m’a dit , apud Hitler and the Cathar Tradition, p. 282). 

“His words, ‘I follow the way that Providence points me with the confidence of a sleep-walker,’ indicates the lines of his supra-normal powers. But, from whom did he receive those powers? Would it be per chance from the Thule group that had initiated him in Eastern esotericism? Would it be from the mysterious man in the green gloves sent to him by the warlocks of Tibet? Or would it be from an older revelation?” (p. 283) 

Hitler hated hunters because he believed human souls were reincarnated in the bodies of animals, like the Cathars and Buddhists who believe in metempsychosis. (p.287) Once he declared: “Even those who commit ѕυιcιdє indisputably return to nature - body, soul and spirit” (Adolph Hitler, Libres Propos, Flammarion, Paris, 1952, apud Hitler and the Cathar Tradition, p. 291). 

From all that is affirmed in the book of Jean M. Angebert one thing seems certain to us: the Gnostic and occult character of National Socialism both in the actions and the aims of its principal leaders. It is another confirmation that a natural consequence of Gnosis is Socialism. 

In his book Out of the Night, about the fight of Communists and nαzιs after World War II, Marxist Jean Valtin reported the surprise and unease of the Communist grassroots in Germany who received the instruction not to resist the partisans of Hitler. 

A little before the fall of Berlin, Goebbels proclaimed in a radio speech that even though National Socialism was being defeated by arms, it would emerge victorious with the implantation of Socialism throughout the world. Considering the Hegelian origins of Marxist Socialism and its Gnostic roots, we can easily conceive that both National Socialism and Marxist Socialism could well reinforce each other in the dialectical shock of their apparent opposition. 



Posted May 15, 2008
Translated from Catolicismo, September 1971

Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Incredulous on November 07, 2017, 10:23:03 PM
For all those who despise Hitler for all the wrong reasons, I would highly recommend them to read this book...  

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/417E1WJXYXL._AC_SY400_.jpg)

Available to read online here... (https://archive.org/stream/Irving_David_-_Hitlers_War_and_the_War_Path#page/n1/mode/1up)

Interesting.  

I listened to some Irving interviews.  In one of them, he claimed Stauffenberg was a traitor.

Irving is known for defending Hitler, and blaming the SS head, Himmler, for German war atrocities.

For some reason, I don't trust Irving, even though he is a friend of Bishop Williamson.

Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Incredulous on November 07, 2017, 10:31:55 PM


The most satisfying lecture on Hilter's motivations came from the Cincinnati trad, Jim Condit.

The Final Solution to Adolf Hitler (https://youtu.be/YDf4RYxD0Js)

He theme is that Hitler was put into power by elite jews precisely to help herd the common jews back into Palestine.

A crisis had to be made up to get them out of Europe and Hitler was the guy to do it.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 07, 2017, 10:33:59 PM
The world would've been a better place if Hitler were never born and the nαzι Party stopped dead in its tracks.
That rings just a tad omniscient...
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 07, 2017, 10:39:35 PM
Anyone else get the impression that we're speaking of Roman, and not Berliner, critters here?
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 07, 2017, 10:46:13 PM
The enemy of my enemy is not my friend; my friend is my friend.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 07, 2017, 10:55:03 PM
Quote
America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests. 

H. Kissinger

America or no...
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 08, 2017, 07:06:57 AM

The most satisfying lecture on Hilter's motivations came from the Cincinnati trad, Jim Condit.

The Final Solution to Adolf Hitler (https://youtu.be/YDf4RYxD0Js)

He theme is that Hitler was put into power by elite jews precisely to help herd the common jews back into Palestine.

A crisis had to be made up to get them out of Europe and Hitler was the guy to do it.
Wow! That completely fits the development of Zionism.  
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 08, 2017, 07:12:28 AM
What encyclical are you referring to?
As  I posted earlier in the thread:
http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html (http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html)

"...the evidence of events should have torn the mask off the systematic hostility leveled at the Church. Even now that a campaign against the confessional schools, which are guaranteed by the concordat, and the destruction of free election, where Catholics have a right to their children's Catholic education, afford evidence, in a matter so essential to the life of the Church, of the extreme gravity of the situation and the anxiety of every Christian conscience..."

"...We turn to you [the German bishops], and through you, the German Catholics, who, like all suffering and afflicted children, are nearer to their Father's heart. At a time when your faith, like gold, is being tested in the fire of tribulation and persecution, when your religious freedom is beset on all sides, when the lack of religious teaching and of normal defense is heavily weighing on you, you have every right to words of truth and spiritual comfort..." 

"We thank you, Venerable Brethren, your priests and Faithful, who have persisted in their Christian duty and in the defense of God's rights in the teeth of an aggressive paganism. Our gratitude, warmer still and admiring, goes out to those who, in fulfillment of their duty, have been deemed worthy of sacrifice and suffering for the love of God."

"In your country, Venerable Brethren, voices are swelling into a chorus urging people to leave the Church, and among the leaders there is more than one whose official position is intended to create the impression that this infidelity to Christ the King constitutes a signal and meritorious act of loyalty to the modern State. Secret and open measures of intimidation, the threat of economic and civic disabilities, bear on the loyalty of certain classes of Catholic functionaries, a pressure which violates every human right and dignity. Our wholehearted paternal sympathy goes out to those who must pay so dearly for their loyalty to Christ and the Church; but directly the highest interests are at stake, with the alternative of spiritual loss, there is but one alternative left, that of heroism."

"The believer has an absolute right to profess his Faith and live according to its dictates. Laws which impede this profession and practice of Faith are against natural law."

"Thousands of voices ring into your ears a Gospel which has not been revealed by the Father of Heaven. Thousands of pens are wielded in the service of a Christianity, which is not of Christ. Press and wireless daily force on you productions hostile to the Faith and to the Church, impudently aggressive against whatever you should hold venerable and sacred."

"To all those who have kept their promised fidelity to their Bishops on the day of their ordination; to all those who in the exercise of their priestly function are called upon to suffer persecution; to all those imprisoned in jail and cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρs, the Father of the Christian world sends his words of gratitude and commendation."

"Then We are sure, the enemies of the Church, who think that their time has come, will see that their joy was premature, and that they may close the grave they had dug. The day will come when the Te Deum of liberation will succeed to the premature hymns of the enemies of Christ: Te Deum of triumph and joy and gratitude, as the German people return to religion, bend the knee before Christ, and arming themselves against the enemies of God, again resume the task God has laid upon them."
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: klasG4e on November 08, 2017, 10:11:00 AM

The most satisfying lecture on Hilter's motivations came from the Cincinnati trad, Jim Condit.

The Final Solution to Adolf Hitler (https://youtu.be/YDf4RYxD0Js)

He theme is that Hitler was put into power by elite jews precisely to help herd the common jews back into Palestine.

A crisis had to be made up to get them out of Europe and Hitler was the guy to do it.
St. Pius X:  "The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jєωιѕн people. "

Theodore Herzl:  "We are not asking for Jerusalem, but for Palestine—for only the secular land."

St. Pius X:  "We cannot be in favor of it."

**********************************************************************************************************

The Tribe: We financed you all the way from Wall Street.  Now we expect your full cooperation in helping us fill up Palestine with you know who.

Hitler:  Yes, yes, but of course.  I am at your service.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on November 08, 2017, 12:04:13 PM

The most satisfying lecture on Hilter's motivations came from the Cincinnati trad, Jim Condit.

The Final Solution to Adolf Hitler (https://youtu.be/YDf4RYxD0Js)

He theme is that Hitler was put into power by elite jews precisely to help herd the common jews back into Palestine.

A crisis had to be made up to get them out of Europe and Hitler was the guy to do it.
A crisis was made up?
I suppose the state of the Germany during the Weimar "Republic" was made up? The political intrigue between the Zionists and British in the Balfour agreement was made up? The declaration of war by the Jews against Germany in 1933 was made up? The central bankers comprised of mostly Jews was made up? The creation of the Bolsheviks/Marxists and their plan to dominate Europe by systematically deposing the monarchs was made up? That Hitler kicked the bankers out and imprisoned a Rothschild was made up? How much more can I present?
JayneK will give the video credence, but refuses to read a book that is quite enlightening and rely upon hearsay? Disingenuous to say the least.
You know Jayne, you stated that you will listen to Pius XI over me. Fine. I will listen to someone who wasn't shielded by his entourage that was filled with Marxist sympathizers, men like Leon Degrelle. A man who was there in the halls and trenches. A man who took action and started a Catholic movement in Belgium, defended his people and Europe against the Marxists and died attending only the TLM until he died in 1994, and defended Hitler till the day he died. Franco praised him as a hero and loyal son of the Church.  
I will not defend a scoundrel like Pacelli, who sided with the menace that undermined the Church after the war. The side that were Marxists, Zionists, Masons and the real enemies of the Church.
Put the kool aid down folks, and learn. You have been duped. Just like you were at one time with Vatican II, the New Mass, etc., etc., etc.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: klasG4e on November 08, 2017, 12:13:53 PM
A crisis was made up?
I suppose the state of the Germany during the Weimar "Republic" was made up? The political intrigue between the Zionists and British in the Balfour agreement was made up? The declaration of war by the Jews against Germany in 1933 was made up? The central bankers comprised of mostly Jews was made up? The creation of the Bolsheviks/Marxists and their plan to dominate Europe by systematically deposing the monarchs was made up? That Hitler kicked the bankers out and imprisoned a Rothschild was made up? How much more can I present?
JayneK will give the video credence, but refuses to read a book that is quite enlightening and rely upon hearsay? Disingenuous to say the least.
You know Jayne, you stated that you will listen to Pius XI over me. Fine. I will listen to someone who wasn't shielded by his entourage that was filled with Marxist sympathizers, men like Leon Degrelle. A man who was there in the halls and trenches. A man who took action and started a Catholic movement in Belgium, defended his people and Europe against the Marxists and died attending only the TLM until he died in 1994, and defended Hitler till the day he died. Franco praised him as a hero and loyal son of the Church.  
I will not defend a scoundrel like Pacelli, who sided with the menace that undermined the Church after the war. The side that were Marxists, Zionists, Masons and the real enemies of the Church.
Put the kool aid down folks, and learn. You have been duped. Just like you were at one time with Vatican II, the New Mass, etc., etc., etc.

What did you think of the video?
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Pax Vobis on November 08, 2017, 12:33:27 PM
Why didn't Franco help Hitler, if he supported him?  Hitler helped Franco but not vice versa.  I am a WW2 illiterate; would like to know.

Secondly, back to the question of Stauffenberg...if Hitler was a great guy and a good catholic, how come he allowed the perilous times endured by the germans in their own country (i.e. people being kidnapped at night, prison camps, etc)?  I don't see how he couldn't have been in control of this oppression and tyranny.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: klasG4e on November 08, 2017, 12:41:23 PM
Why didn't Franco help Hitler, if he supported him?  Hitler helped Franco but not vice versa.  I am a WW2 illiterate; would like to know.

Why not type in "Why didn't Franco help Hitler" into your Internet search bar and then begin to sort it out!
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Incredulous on November 08, 2017, 12:55:41 PM
What did you think of the video?


The Condit video is equivalent to a college graduate history course.

Once you sit through and comprehend the lecture, the leagues of paper written about the Third Reich, go up in smoke.

Condit's Hitler argument jives with the independent Fatima prophecy and Red Symphony interview concerning the start of WWII.

By January 1938, Hitler was considered a "Bonapartist" or rogue, by the Rothschild power elite.

He had independently printed state money and this was a very dangerous act, for the tribe, because other nations could easily duplicate Hitler's program.  Of course, the Rothschilds have admitted, the basis of their power comes from their control of a nation's money.

Hitler and the German nation had to be crushed.  This was just a continuation of the zionist war declared on Germany by world jewery  in 1933.

Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Pax Vobis on November 08, 2017, 12:59:39 PM
Quote
Why not type in "Why didn't Franco help Hitler" into your Internet search bar and then begin to sort it out!

If the general view of WW2 and Hitler is a sham, as LeDeg contests, I highly doubt that google will be a good reference point for "true" history.  Too many filters; too much fake news to weed through.  I'm asking an honest question.  I wouldn't know what's fake or not.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JPaul on November 08, 2017, 03:39:45 PM
A crisis was made up?
I suppose the state of the Germany during the Weimar "Republic" was made up? The political intrigue between the Zionists and British in the Balfour agreement was made up? The declaration of war by the Jews against Germany in 1933 was made up? The central bankers comprised of mostly Jews was made up? The creation of the Bolsheviks/Marxists and their plan to dominate Europe by systematically deposing the monarchs was made up? That Hitler kicked the bankers out and imprisoned a Rothschild was made up? How much more can I present?
JayneK will give the video credence, but refuses to read a book that is quite enlightening and rely upon hearsay? Disingenuous to say the least. Ciou
You know Jayne, you stated that you will listen to Pius XI over me. Fine. I will listen to someone who wasn't shielded by his entourage that was filled with Marxist sympathizers, men like Leon Degrelle. A man who was there in the halls and trenches. A man who took action and started a Catholic movement in Belgium, defended his people and Europe against the Marxists and died attending only the TLM until he died in 1994, and defended Hitler till the day he died. Franco praised him as a hero and loyal son of the Church.  
I will not defend a scoundrel like Pacelli, who sided with the menace that undermined the Church after the war. The side that were Marxists, Zionists, Masons and the real enemies of the Church.
Put the kool aid down folks, and learn. You have been duped. Just like you were at one time with Vatican II, the New Mass, etc., etc., etc.
This could not be more true or said as well. :applause:
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 09, 2017, 06:58:39 PM
JayneK will give the video credence, but refuses to read a book that is quite enlightening and rely upon hearsay? Disingenuous to say the least.
You know Jayne, you stated that you will listen to Pius XI over me. Fine. I will listen to someone who wasn't shielded by his entourage that was filled with Marxist sympathizers, men like Leon Degrelle. A man who was there in the halls and trenches. A man who took action and started a Catholic movement in Belgium, defended his people and Europe against the Marxists and died attending only the TLM until he died in 1994, and defended Hitler till the day he died. Franco praised him as a hero and loyal son of the Church.  
I will not defend a scoundrel like Pacelli, who sided with the menace that undermined the Church after the war. The side that were Marxists, Zionists, Masons and the real enemies of the Church.
Put the kool aid down folks, and learn. You have been duped. Just like you were at one time with Vatican II, the New Mass, etc., etc., etc.
It is not so much that I give the video credence as that it is more interesting to me because of the Zionism connection.  I have very strong anti-Zionist feelings so that piqued my interest. A book just about Hitler sounds pretty boring.

I am having trouble seeing how your position could be Catholic.  I can follow both the Sedevacantist and "Recognize and Resist" arguments, but you don't seem to fit either of those.  Your view seems to be that you can ignore the pope whenever you feel like it.

But perhaps I am missing something.  I don't see what Pacelli (aka Pius XII) has to do with whether one should believe an encyclical written by the previous pope, Pius XI.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Pax Vobis on November 09, 2017, 07:32:33 PM
Welp, I guess the Hitler apologists just want to give us a summary of their views and nothing substantial, even though we've asked.  I find it hard to believe though, that he was some bastion of catholicism and morality.  Where's the proof?  Franco's name has been dragged through the mud but there's plenty of evidence that he was a staunch catholic, and possibly a saint.  

Hitler?  The only thing we can say about him is that he turned on his once-friends of the global elite.  Is this good?  Sure.  But that doesn't mean he was an exemplary catholic leader.  Was he better than the rest of the leaders at the time (i.e. Roosevelt, Churchill, Mussolini, etc)?  I can buy that.  But just because he changed his tune into a "germany first" chant from a "global govt" symphony doesn't mean he was God's gift to Germany.  It just means there was in-fighting in the different freemasonic factions...much like what is going on now, between Trump and the rest of the world (Trump is "old school" who wants a global govt with countries' sovereignty still intact, which differs from the way that the Bush's/Obama want it, which are weak "country states" and a powerful UN).  It's just a different way to skin the cat.

This brings us back to the main question:  Was Stauffenberg wrong to try to kill Hitler?  Putting aside the morality of killing a tyrant...let's just assume that it's allowed (I'm not sure if it is; it would depend).  If it was allowed, and if you are a Hitler apologist, please show me the evidence that Stauffenberg was an evil man?  My evidence says he was a good catholic with intentions to restore catholicism to Germany.  You call him a traitor just because he was against Hitler.  I argue that even if Hitler was against the 'global elite' that doesn't mean he was a good, catholic leader.  Maybe he wanted his own version of tyranny, independent of the thumb of the rothchilds?    
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: klasG4e on November 09, 2017, 07:38:52 PM

One could only imagine the heated discussions among Muslims debating among themselves as to whether the assassination (if one had actually occurred) of any one of some of our most recent presidents by a Muslim American military officer should be seen as making the assassin an American traitor or a Muslim hero; this in view, of course, of the tremendous death and destruction of all sorts America has brought to their lands.  (This is not to say, of course, that Christ is not the king of their nations whether He be recognized as such or not.)

Even Catholics of those lands could very well have a heated debate among themselves over whether or not an assassination as mentioned above, but one carried out by a Catholic American military officer should be seen as making the assassin an American traitor or a Catholic hero.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JPaul on November 09, 2017, 09:12:28 PM
It has become apparent that no fruitful or rational discussion is possible on this and other like subjects as those who hold opposing opinions do not speak the same language and see concepts, ideologies, and moral and religious matters with the same divergence of apprehension.

There is a great lack of scholarship and diligence in this generation and both neo-traditional and conciiar neo-catholics are infected almost in the same proportions as the mainstream.  Intellect and reason are given to man for discernment and apprehension of truth, and to let such faculties languish must be a sin in some unseen realm.



Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Pax Vobis on November 09, 2017, 09:13:32 PM
Your analogy is both good and poor.  Good in the sense that most American presidents in the past 100 years were awful and traitorous to america themselves, much like, I argue, was Hitler.  

It is a bad analogy in the sense that Catholicism has never been part of America's govt (nor even its society, except due to sheer #s of Catholics which USED TO practice here).  And certainly, we didn't live through a few decades of a total loss of catholic culture, which had been part of Germany's culture for what, 14 centuries?  

Maybe we're all asking the wrong question?  Maybe the question is not:  Was Stauffenberg a hero vs a traitor?

Maybe the question is:  In light of Germany's loss of the monarchy and its catholic heritage teetering on the edge of a cliff, was Stauffenberg justified in trying restore the monarchy in an attempt to save catholic Germany?  

or should he have done nothing and supported Hitler, letting Germany slip into gradual socialism and eventual irreligiousness (as did all of Europe), for by supporting Hitler, he would have staved off the atheistic and godless attacks of Russia/Stalin?

Answer:  As a nobleman of Germany, who was born with a God-given duty to his people and who had grown up being part of the ruling of his country, I think Stauffenberg had a very direct responsibility to affect the govt of Germany towards Catholicism, no matter the cost.  (This assumes one is allowed to αssαssιnαtҽ a tryannical leader.  I haven't studied this moral question.)  It would have been easily to just sit on the sidelines, fulfill his military duty, and go home to his estate and spend his days with his young family and friends.  That would have been the easy choice!  The fact that he didn't do this, suggests (apart from the the evidence we have from his personal letters) that catholic duty was first and foremost on his mind.  

The choice of Germany was much more nuanced than just Hitler vs Stalin.  Let's not forget Mussolini, Churchill etc.  Their negative influence on a future Germany can't be ruled out. 

As many have pointed out, Hitler turned in his masters, which presupposes that his original masters were anything but good.  Who's to say that Hitler's "turn" was from bad to good?  I'm taking spiritually here.  Maybe he turned from bad to less bad?  Even if he turned from a satanic globalist to a Protestant, bible-loving ruler, he's still not catholic and such a change would NOT have been good for Germany.  

So the choice is clear: Catholicism or bust.  It's easy to second guess now, 70 years later, and say if Hitler had still ruled, Germany would've been better off.  I say, would they have been?  I doubt it.  When a catholic country falls away from the Truth, in any direction, in any incremental fall, the results are disastrous.  The end does not justify the means.  One cannot support a mediocre ruler (Hitler) in order to avoid a godless one (Stalin).


One last question....if Hitler was such a "rebel" against the global elites, how did he escape into Argentina?  Who let him live for so long?  The joos have long been involved in Argentina - are you saying Hitler was able to hide there without the globalists knowing?  No way!  More likely, Hitler was a pawn in a global scheme to destroy Germany, much like Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin were pawns.  The real rulers are nameless and behind the scenes.  Hitler may have butted heads with them, but he fulfilled his purpose - Germany was destroyed economically, socially and religiously.  And Europe fell, post WW2, into socialism and irreligiousness because Germany was weak spiritually.  Mission accomplished.  
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Pax Vobis on November 09, 2017, 09:20:00 PM

Quote
It has become apparent that no fruitful or rational discussion is possible on this and other like subjects as those who hold opposing opinions do not speak the same language and see concepts, ideologies, and moral and religious matters with the same divergence of apprehension.

There is a great lack of scholarship and diligence in this generation and both neo-traditional and conciiar neo-catholics are infected almost in the same proportions as the mainstream.  Intellect and reason are given to man for discernment and apprehension of truth, and to let such faculties languish must be a sin in some unseen realm.
Ive asked you and others for more specifics.  I'm open to listening.  The above is just a philosophic generalization.  You can't say we're poor thinkers without presenting the evidence.  
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Pax Vobis on November 09, 2017, 09:27:14 PM
P.s.  I've talked to a friend who has read a lot of Irving (and is a big fan...has traveled to hear him speak) but he doesn't think Hitler was some savior of Germany, in the catholic sense.  Was he "over the top" vilified and "scape-goat'ed" by the joos for political and Israeli reasons?  That's obvious.  But that doesn't mean he was a good ruler for Germany.  
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JPaul on November 09, 2017, 09:35:52 PM
Ive asked you and others for more specifics.  I'm open to listening.  The above is just a philosophic generalization.  You can't say we're poor thinkers without presenting the evidence.  
The evidence is in your statements and conclusions. You do not need me to help, you are doing fine on your own.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JPaul on November 09, 2017, 10:01:16 PM
P.s.  I've talked to a friend who has read a lot of Irving (and is a big fan...has traveled to hear him speak) but he doesn't think Hitler was some savior of Germany, in the catholic sense.  Was he "over the top" vilified and "scape-goat'ed" by the joos for political and Israeli reasons?  That's obvious.  But that doesn't mean he was a good ruler for Germany.  
Irving is but a small part of the puzzle. It takes a lot of effort and a search through many sources to come to an approximation of the true histories which have been so altered and suppressed for such a long time.
This area is full of odd and sometimes malicious speculations and fabrications like Hitler was a Zionist, or the rothschilds financed him. These theorys are floated in the same circles as the Jesuits are Jews and the Vatican with them controls the world and the United Nations.
Hitler was not a religious leader, he was a political leader and in three years he accomplished what he said he wanted to do. And Germany and the Germans as a whole benefitted greatly. That is all docuмented fact but more importantly he proclaimed that the Bolshevik communist were the greatest danger facing Europe and the world, just as our Lady, a religious icon, did. No one believed him either, and so the scourge is upon us now.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: klasG4e on November 09, 2017, 11:01:08 PM
If Hitler didn't exist -- as the saying goes -- the Tribe would have had to invent him.  But actually they did invent him, the false image that is.  They invented the false image of him.  In other words they lied and continue lying.  Hitler was obviously no saint, but he just as surely was not the individual the тαℓмυdic lying Jooos would have us believe he was, no more so than the false image the тαℓмυd would have us believe the Saviour was.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 09, 2017, 11:10:24 PM
Regardless, these repeated comparisons to holy and most holy persons is increasingly disturbing.

Also, back to basics; in gauging morality, motive and means matter.

The right thing the wrong way, and/or for the wrong motives, is the wrong thing.

Of course, the wrong thing is just wrong.

War is a curse and, typically, a scam.

Even "Iusus Bellae", is hardly an ideal situation.

What can one steal from a thief?

How can one betray one who betrays God?

If "An unjust law, is no law at all" (S. Augustine, possibly f/ Plato or Aristotle) then what makes for lawful authority, and how is it lost?

Just because I have the crown, that doesn't make me king.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on November 09, 2017, 11:37:32 PM
It is not so much that I give the video credence as that it is more interesting to me because of the Zionism connection.  I have very strong anti-Zionist feelings so that piqued my interest. A book just about Hitler sounds pretty boring.

The book contains information that pertains precisely to that subject. 

I am having trouble seeing how your position could be Catholic.  I can follow both the Sedevacantist and "Recognize and Resist" arguments, but you don't seem to fit either of those.  Your view seems to be that you can ignore the pope whenever you feel like it.

This analysis is so laughable I can hardly incline myself to respond. I can ignore the pope whenever I want? What do you think R&R is?

But perhaps I am missing something.  I don't see what Pacelli (aka Pius XII) has to do with whether one should believe an encyclical written by the previous pope, Pius XI.

If you could bother to read the link I posted to what I have written in other threads, this would be obvious. Since Pius XI did not know German, since Pius XII was the papal nuncio to Germany and knew the language, and since Cardinal Siri had stated that the encyclical had been altered, how do you think that squares with the fact that Pius XI played a key role in getting Hitler elected in '33 and helping the NSDAP gain seats in the Reichstag? How does Pius XI support Hitler in gaining power, and then do an about face when nothing had come to light that was any different in tone to what the NSDAP stood on politically and socially between the time Hitler wrote Mein Kampf and 1938? There can only be one logical answer. And keep in mind, Rampolla was a mentor to Pacelli, a known Mason that had an enormous influence on the shaping of Pacelli's political views.  
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 09, 2017, 11:47:06 PM

Quote
This analysis is so laughable I can hardly incline myself to respond. I can ignore the pope whenever I want? What do you think R&R is?
As near as I can tell, those who practice, preach, and profess it don't accord as to what it is amongst themselves; if so, then is it fair to expect others to?

Not to chuck gauntlets, but it's like getting the straight dope about, for example, the "Solas" from a Protestant, or a consistent and coherent definition as to what they mean by "worship".

I mean, this could be tested somewhat by posting a definition on various fora professing "R&R", and see who salutes.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on November 09, 2017, 11:49:07 PM
Welp, I guess the Hitler apologists just want to give us a summary of their views and nothing substantial, even though we've asked.  I find it hard to believe though, that he was some bastion of catholicism and morality.

Straw man. I never claimed that.

  Where's the proof?  Franco's name has been dragged through the mud but there's plenty of evidence that he was a staunch catholic, and possibly a saint.  


“Adolf Hitler, son of the Catholic Church, died while defending Christianity. It is therefore understandable that words cannot be found to lament over his death, when so many were found to exalt his life. Over his mortal remains stands his victorious moral figure. With the palm of the martyr, God gives Hitler the laurels of Victory.”-Franco

Hitler?  The only thing we can say about him is that he turned on his once-friends of the global elite.  Is this good?  Sure.  But that doesn't mean he was an exemplary catholic leader.  

Again, no one claimed that he was. Many of the Catholic heirarchy weren't either and that's their job.

Was he better than the rest of the leaders at the time (i.e. Roosevelt, Churchill, Mussolini, etc)?  I can buy that.  But just because he changed his tune into a "germany first" chant from a "global govt" symphony doesn't mean he was God's gift to Germany.  It just means there was in-fighting in the different freemasonic factions...much like what is going on now, between Trump and the rest of the world (Trump is "old school" who wants a global govt with countries' sovereignty still intact, which differs from the way that the Bush's/Obama want it, which are weak "country states" and a powerful UN).  It's just a different way to skin the cat.

Unfortunately, Trump is no Hitler.

This brings us back to the main question:  Was Stauffenberg wrong to try to kill Hitler?  Putting aside the morality of killing a tyrant...let's just assume that it's allowed (I'm not sure if it is; it would depend).  If it was allowed, and if you are a Hitler apologist, please show me the evidence that Stauffenberg was an evil man?  My evidence says he was a good catholic with intentions to restore catholicism to Germany.  

What makes you think he intended to "restore" Catholicism? And more importantly, who said Catholicism needed to be restored?

"Today Christians (https://www.thoughtco.com/basic-christian-beliefs-700357) ... stand at the head of [this country]... I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ... We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past (few) years."

- Adolf Hitler, quoted in: The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872


You call him a traitor just because he was against Hitler.  I argue that even if Hitler was against the 'global elite' that doesn't mean he was a good, catholic leader.  Maybe he wanted his own version of tyranny, independent of the thumb of the rothchilds?    


Pius XI thought he was the best antidote against the Marxist hordes and put his political weight behind supporting him. What does that say?
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on November 10, 2017, 12:00:38 AM


One last question....if Hitler was such a "rebel" against the global elites, how did he escape into Argentina?  Who let him live for so long?  The joos have long been involved in Argentina - are you saying Hitler was able to hide there without the globalists knowing?  No way!  More likely, Hitler was a pawn in a global scheme to destroy Germany, much like Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin were pawns.  The real rulers are nameless and behind the scenes.  Hitler may have butted heads with them, but he fulfilled his purpose - Germany was destroyed economically, socially and religiously.  And Europe fell, post WW2, into socialism and irreligiousness because Germany was weak spiritually.  Mission accomplished.  
What empirical proof do you have that Hitler made it to Germany?
Hitler was a pawn to destroy Germany? Do you have any clue what Germany was like during the Weimar Republic? You cannot possibly be serious! It was destroyed! Within 3 years after coming into power, Germany's unemployment was zero. Zero! He put 7 million people back to work! This while the entire western world was in a depression. Does this sound like the plot of the Zionist, Masonic Marxist's plan? The world turned on Germany because (((they))) could not have a economic juggernaut roaming the countryside that was not theirs to control and who threatened the usury based Jєωιѕн power structure.
Some of you folks here really need to have a better understanding of what Germany was like before the war and why they "had to be put down" so more intelligent discussions can come about with this subject.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: GottmitunsAlex on November 10, 2017, 12:04:28 AM

Some of you folks here really need to have a better understanding of what Germany was like before the war and why they had to put down so more intelligent discussions can come about with this subject.
Many learn their history by watching movies and listening to Mark Levin.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on November 10, 2017, 12:05:45 AM
Many learn their history by watching movies and listening to Mark Levi
Ain't it the truth. :facepalm:
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 10, 2017, 07:36:30 AM
It has become apparent that no fruitful or rational discussion is possible on this and other like subjects as those who hold opposing opinions do not speak the same language and see concepts, ideologies, and moral and religious matters with the same divergence of apprehension.
This is just what I was thinking.  I cannot even figure out how it is possible for Catholics to be writing the sort of thing that pro-Hitler people are writing in this thread.  Our underlying assumptions appear to be so different that communication is not possible.  There does not seem much point in attempting to continue.

I want to say, though, that I appreciate how you especially, JPaul, remained civil throughout.  This sort of inability to communicate is frustrating and people's tempers tend to fray.  I admire that you did not give into that temptation.

Now that I think of it, several people in this thread were notable in that regard, but I don't want to try to name you all because I might unintentionally leave someone out.  Consider yourselves thanked.
:)
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Pax Vobis on November 10, 2017, 08:30:13 AM
I would like to say I apologize if i came across too strong.  I'll be the first to admit that probably 99% of people on here know more about WW2 than I.  It seems that JPaul, LeDeg and klasG4e are all in agreement that i'm wrong (which is probably accurate) but each of them to a different degree and of a different shade, because each of you has answered my questions with a different perspective (which generally agrees, but specifically, does not in some areas).  I was trying to play devild's advocate, in order to get to the "bottom line".  I'm honestly trying to learn and I know it's a dense topic but a lot of your answers were mysterious and too general and/or defensive, since you assumed I was against your opinion.  That's not your fault; I suppose it's due to the subject matter.  I'm sure your alternate views of history often get criticized, so I can't blame you for being defensive.  Anyway, I appreciate the info you did provide and am seriously considering adding a few of your recommended books to my reading list.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JPaul on November 10, 2017, 08:30:56 AM
LeDeg,
Quote
Some of you folks here really need to have a better understanding of what Germany was like before the war and why they "had to be put down" so more intelligent discussions can come about with this subject.
Your analysis is right on target and is true, but you must also add into the mix the hatred  for Germany and the  pathological need for vengence which was has always been part and parcel of the Jєωιѕн makup.
Removing them from power and influence was and is intolerable to them.  Germany was decimated as a result for them by the allied Golem.

As for the involvement of the former pope, it was Pius XI who sent Pacelli to the U.S. to silence the great priest Fr. Charles Coughlin for his warning of about the international bankers and the Communist Jews who were agitating for war. He was silenced because the Jews were complaining to the pope who was overly concerned with politics as was his successor PiusXII. 

Jєωιѕн influence in the Vatican had been well established by this point and was excercised both during and after the war.

True history is not what we learned in text books nor is it to be found in the History/Discovery programs about it, which are all part of the Jєωιѕн propaganda regime.
This the entertainment field and where else do you fing an overwhelming number of Jews?  In the public school systems, in academia, in universities, in most major publishing houses and printers of textbooks.

Is it no wonder that the population has been so conditioned as it is? Raised to respond to trigger words and phrases in a predicted pattern and with emotion and not reason.

Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 10, 2017, 08:36:36 AM
I would like to say I apologize if i came across too strong.  
I particularly admired your posts and frequently found myself thinking that you were being true to your name.  You chose your username well.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 10, 2017, 08:39:22 AM
Jєωιѕн influence in the Vatican had been well established by this point and was excercised both during and after the war.

True history is not what we learned in text books nor is it to be found in the History/Discovery programs about it, which are all part of the Jєωιѕн propaganda regime.
This the entertainment field and where else do you fing an overwhelming number of Jews?  In the public school systems, in academia, in universities, in most major publishing houses and printers of textbooks.

Is it no wonder that the population has been so conditioned as it is? Raised to respond to trigger words and phrases in a predicted pattern and with emotion and not reason.
For the record, I do agree with this part.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 10, 2017, 08:40:51 AM
The negative, unsupported, and unchallenged assertions about popes in this thread as well as a generally, if tacitly, dismissive response to Mit is a very odd display of "Catholicity".

To those making such assertions, I ask that you either reassess, or prove your charges, starting with this seeming capacity for mind-reading.

Why is it that the Monday morning QBs and armchair generals seem to grant so many lauds and so much latitude to a Hitler, without granting at least as much to Vicars of Christ? (Presuming that the respective parties hold that they are such.)
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JPaul on November 10, 2017, 08:41:27 AM
I would like to say I apologize if i came across too strong.  I'll be the first to admit that probably 99% of people on here know more about WW2 than I.  It seems that JPaul, LeDeg and klasG4e are all in agreement that i'm wrong (which is probably accurate) but each of them to a different degree and of a different shade, because each of you has answered my questions with a different perspective (which generally agrees, but specifically, does not in some areas).  I was trying to play devild's advocate, in order to get to the "bottom line".  I'm honestly trying to learn and I know it's a dense topic but a lot of your answers were mysterious and too general and/or defensive, since you assumed I was against your opinion.  That's not your fault; I suppose it's due to the subject matter.  I'm sure your alternate views of history often get criticized, so I can't blame you for being defensive.  Anyway, I appreciate the info you did provide and am seriously considering adding a few of your recommended books to my reading list.
You raise a very instructive point here. Those who do some honest research will indeed arrive at similar conclusions which point to the truth of the matter. That they vary in their approach, is largely due to different sources of information and sometimes a peculiarities of perspective. Find a more accurate accounting of anything is always a matter of piecing together the fragments of truth which have not been altered or obliterated. We live in a world of illusion, one created to make us believe what we thing we see, hear, and understand.  False realities are not that hard to produce when you know how and have the required bad intent to do so.
God Bless PV
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on November 10, 2017, 11:48:18 AM
The negative, unsupported, and unchallenged assertions about popes in this thread as well as a generally, if tacitly, dismissive response to Mit is a very odd display of "Catholicity".

To those making such assertions, I ask that you either reassess, or prove your charges, starting with this seeming capacity for mind-reading.

Why is it that the Monday morning QBs and armchair generals seem to grant so many lauds and so much latitude to a Hitler, without granting at least as much to Vicars of Christ? (Presuming that the respective parties hold that they are such.)
My views on Pius XI and Pius XII, Mit and the events leading up to WWII and eventually the demise of the Church are based on historical facts. I do not allow ultramontanism to get in the way, much like R&R's don't let Vatican II and all of the subsequent events after it to get in the way of dismissing anything the recognized hierarchy says or does.
My views go much further back than these events. But, that's another story.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: klasG4e on November 10, 2017, 12:15:24 PM
The negative, unsupported, and unchallenged assertions about popes in this thread as well as a generally, if tacitly, dismissive response to Mit is a very odd display of "Catholicity".

To those making such assertions, I ask that you either reassess, or prove your charges, starting with this seeming capacity for mind-reading.

Why is it that the Monday morning QBs and armchair generals seem to grant so many lauds and so much latitude to a Hitler, without granting at least as much to Vicars of Christ? (Presuming that the respective parties hold that they are such.)

Personally, I have found the most comprehensive, balanced, and correct treatment of the Jєωιѕн Question, Hitler and the nαzιs (National Socialists of the Third Reich) to be found in the pages of the stunning and profoundly significant work, The Plot Against the Church.  (If only this book had been given proper attention by the bishops and cardinals at Vatican II.  Alas, hindsight is 20/20.)  If you have a hard copy with an index (which unfortunately the linked copy here does not) you may wish to go directly to your index and check out the pages under the entries for Hitler and nαzιs.  In short the collective authors (i.e., Maurice Pinay) assert that much of what Hitler and his party did were spot on and actually in accord with much of Church truth and policy in regards to the handling of the Jews , but the problem was that Hitler and company separated themselves from the the teachings of Christ and His Church in their pursuit of a policy of Imperialistic race hatred against the Jєωιѕн people. If you don't have a hard copy it can be viewed on line at https://archive.org/details/ThePlotAgainstTheChurch_192  (https://archive.org/details/ThePlotAgainstTheChurch_192)
 (https://archive.org/details/ThePlotAgainstTheChurch_192)
 (https://archive.org/details/ThePlotAgainstTheChurch_192)
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Pax Vobis on November 10, 2017, 01:01:44 PM
Quote
but the problem was that Hitler and company separated themselves from the the teachings of Christ and His Church in their pursuit of a policy of Imperialistic race hatred against the Jєωιѕн people.
Again, this type of comment brings up my main point and question:

Main point:  Hitler was not a good catholic, nor was he an idealistic catholic leader, as was the hope, in a german monarch.  Not to say he didn't love Germany, but Stauffenberg wanted a catholic leader, ergo he was against Hitler.

Question:  Why does the question of Stauffenberg and Hitler have to be 'either-or'?  If one wants to exonerate Stauffenberg, then one MUST be against Hitler?  I don't see it that way.  I see Hitler as a complicated person - he was pro-Germany and helped their country, but he wasn't balanced in his application of religion, therefore he went too far in some areas (based on the quote above).  Just because he was against the joos, doesn't mean he was perfect.  Therefore, Stauffenberg may have been correct in his assessment of wanting to get rid of him (from a spiritual, catholic perspective), while at the same time, it can be argued that Hitler was good for the country in the beginning (from an economic and natural law perspective).  
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 10, 2017, 01:13:36 PM
My views on Pius XI and Pius XII, Mit and the events leading up to WWII and eventually the demise of the Church are based on historical facts. I do not allow ultramontanism to get in the way, much like R&R's don't let Vatican II and all of the subsequent events after it to get in the way of dismissing anything the recognized hierarchy says or does.
My views go much further back than these events. But, that's another story.
So you say.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: clarkaim on November 10, 2017, 01:29:15 PM
So you're basically endorsing nαzιsm.
Um, nαzιsm?  No such thing.  it's called National Socialism, and no, despite the propensity of so many propagandized Americans to equate it with communism or socialism as we commonly understand them (can you say nominal ism?) it was more a world view thinking that Nations where extended families with shared common interest.  Also, under no circuмstances did the Germ,ans want to "take over the world" until Murika came to save the day at D-day/Normandy invasion.    The fact that so many of us believe all the BS about this era is proof of how controlled we are by the Jews.  Mit Brennender Sorge was about the risk of the German State being worshiped at the expense of eternal truth (can we say Catholicism? as if there is any other?)  I think had Hitler won the war, what you'd have today is a confederation of equal and legitimate nation states in Europe, but no NWO/Jew run international banking scheme/sham that makes everyone's life's bad.
Oh, just because some Catholic calls himself that, don't make it so!  The Heretics that gave the world V2 were a bunch of well placed men from the same era.  Thanks Jews
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on November 10, 2017, 02:25:33 PM
  but the problem was that Hitler and company separated themselves from the the teachings of Christ and His Church in their pursuit of a policy of Imperialistic race hatred against the Jєωιѕн people. If you don't have a hard copy it can be viewed on line at https://archive.org/details/ThePlotAgainstTheChurch_192  (https://archive.org/details/ThePlotAgainstTheChurch_192)
 (https://archive.org/details/ThePlotAgainstTheChurch_192)
 (https://archive.org/details/ThePlotAgainstTheChurch_192)
First, Hitler did not promote hatred against the Jєωιѕн people. How else do you explain that over 40 Jews served in the German command, such Field Marshal Milch? Over 150,000 Jews served in the Wehrmacht? This was with the full knowledge of the NSDAP and they did nothing but welcome their service in the cause. Hitler's own chaueffer was a Jew. One of his kitchen staff was Jєωιѕн. 
Hitler identifying the "Jєωιѕн problem" was no different than the Church and Catholic monarchs expelling them over 100 times in over 70 countries in the last 1000 years. Pot, meet kettle......
Hitler believed in each countries sovereignty. Others in Europe saw his vision. Over 30 countries volunteered for the fight and were part of exclusively non German SS divisions to fight against the Marxists. 
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 10, 2017, 02:46:04 PM
Personally, I have found the most comprehensive, balanced, and correct treatment of the Jєωιѕн Question, Hitler and the nαzιs (National Socialists of the Third Reich) to be found in the pages of the stunning and profoundly significant work, The Plot Against the Church.  (If only this book had been given proper attention by the bishops and cardinals at Vatican II.  Alas, hindsight is 20/20.)  If you have a hard copy with an index (which unfortunately the linked copy here does not) you may wish to go directly to your index and check out the pages under the entries for Hitler and nαzιs.  In short the collective authors (i.e., Maurice Pinay) assert that much of what Hitler and his party did were spot on and actually in accord with much of Church truth and policy in regards to the handling of the Jews , but the problem was that Hitler and company separated themselves from the the teachings of Christ and His Church in their pursuit of a policy of Imperialistic race hatred against the Jєωιѕн people. If you don't have a hard copy it can be viewed on line at https://archive.org/details/ThePlotAgainstTheChurch_192  (https://archive.org/details/ThePlotAgainstTheChurch_192)
 (https://archive.org/details/ThePlotAgainstTheChurch_192)
 (https://archive.org/details/ThePlotAgainstTheChurch_192)
This is a response to that quoted how exactly?

"Google it", or "look it up yourself", is BS. 

However, if that's the standard you want to use, then you won't mind if people make allegations and insinuation about you while you're not about to defend yourself, and then serve up some weak sauce, "google it" or "read a book" response that doesn't appear to have any relevance, right?

"Honorable"

Whatever.

YOu might try the dismissive, "Antisemite" like "defeater" of "Ultramontane"; it seems to meet the same high standards of rigor and virtue...oh yeah, and "honor".

To heck with it, let's just emulate that vaunted German "efficiency" and work ethic, become formal Protestants, call it a day, then we can just make crap up and say we're "inspired".
At least that part would be true, God forbid it, because it wouldn't be HIm doing the inspiring.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: klasG4e on November 10, 2017, 03:06:37 PM
This is a response to that quoted how exactly?

"Google it", or "look it up yourself", is BS.

However, if that's the standard you want to use, then you won't mind if people make allegations and insinuation about you while you're not about to defend yourself, and then serve up some weak sauce, "google it" or "read a book" response that doesn't appear to have any relevance, right?

"Honorable"

Whatever.

YOu might try the dismissive, "Antisemite" like "defeater" of "Ultramontane"; it seems to meet the same high standards of rigor and virtue...oh yeah, and "honor".

To heck with it, let's just emulate that vaunted German "efficiency" and work ethic, become formal Protestants, call it a day, then we can just make crap up and say we're "inspired".
At least that part would be true, God forbid it, because it wouldn't be HIm doing the inspiring.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: klasG4e on November 10, 2017, 03:11:22 PM
Sorry if I offended you or anyone else on this forum DZ PLEASE.  I never intended to.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 10, 2017, 03:16:20 PM
Sorry if I offended you or anyone else on this forum DZ PLEASE.  I never intended to.
I DESERVE offense man; itt's not my offense that I"m concerned with. 

WE'RE cool, and you seem a decent sort; however, for the sake of souls and GOD'S honor lets just not be so reckless indicting Vicars of Christ.

I don't know how I can even walk with this foot in my mouth all the time; don't beat yourself up, just be careful.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: GottmitunsAlex on November 10, 2017, 06:47:11 PM
Um, nαzιsm?  No such thing.  it's called National Socialism, and no, despite the propensity of so many propagandized Americans to equate it with communism or socialism as we commonly understand them (can you say nominal ism?) it was more a world view thinking that Nations where extended families with shared common interest.  Also, under no circuмstances did the Germ,ans want to "take over the world" until Murika came to save the day at D-day/Normandy invasion.    The fact that so many of us believe all the BS about this era is proof of how controlled we are by the Jews.  Mit Brennender Sorge was about the risk of the German State being worshiped at the expense of eternal truth (can we say Catholicism? as if there is any other?)  I think had Hitler won the war, what you'd have today is a confederation of equal and legitimate nation states in Europe, but no NWO/Jew run international banking scheme/sham that makes everyone's life's bad.
Oh, just because some Catholic calls himself that, don't make it so!  The Heretics that gave the world V2 were a bunch of well placed men from the same era.  Thanks Jews
Well said. This pretty much sums it up. The marranos who infiltrated the Church granted the apostates their V2.
YES MARRANOS..
Subversive, meek on the outside but pure putrescence on the inside. 
"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
But if I say the truth, you believe me not.
Which of you shall convince me of sin? If I say the truth to you, why do you not believe me?"
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 11, 2017, 12:27:44 AM
Well said. This pretty much sums it up. The marranos who infiltrated the Church granted the apostates their V2.
YES MARRANOS..
Subversive, meek on the outside but pure putrescence on the inside.
"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.
But if I say the truth, you believe me not.
Which of you shall convince me of sin? If I say the truth to you, why do you not believe me?"
Name them.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: GottmitunsAlex on November 11, 2017, 12:39:59 AM
Name them.
http://newensign.christsassembly.com/A%20History%20of%20The%20Marranos.pdf (http://newensign.christsassembly.com/A%20History%20of%20The%20Marranos.pdf)


Montini, (anti-pope)
Baum (Drafted Nostrae aetate, head peritus for Unitatis Redintegratio and Dignitatis Humanae)

Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 11, 2017, 01:01:08 AM
http://newensign.christsassembly.com/A%20History%20of%20The%20Marranos.pdf (http://newensign.christsassembly.com/A%20History%20of%20The%20Marranos.pdf)


Montini, (anti-pope)
Baum (Drafted Nostrae aetate, head peritus for Unitatis Redintegratio and Dignitatis Humanae)
Thank you, but let's cut through the stuffing; does any posting this thread hold that any pope or popes referred to on this thread, namely those going by "Pius" were traitors, Jews, not Catholics, not popes etc.?

If a question needs to be formed as if posed by a lawyer, that is not a good sign; it is somewhat reminiscent of an Inquisitor interrogating, well, a Maranno.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 11, 2017, 01:17:07 AM
In the first place, discount the fact that Stauffenberg was a Catholic.  

Can we do the same regarding you?

Catholicism was not his motivation

Evidence? i.e., "Prove" it. More to the point, first show how you can justly assert such in the first place.

...
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 11, 2017, 03:21:00 AM
Baum (Drafted Nostrae aetate, head peritus for Unitatis Redintegratio and Dignitatis Humanae)
For those unfamiliar with Gregory Baum, here is some background information:
Quote
Baum attended the Second Vatican Council (1962-65) as a peritus, or theological expert. He vigorously opposed Catholic teaching on a range of issues, including contraception, priestly celibacy, and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity.

He was one of the most outspoken critics of Pope Paul VI's 1968 condemnation of contraception in the encyclical Humanae Vitae, even to the point of rallying opposition to the teaching.

Baum played no small part in the outcome of the Canadian bishops adopting a position of open dissent from Humanae Vitae two months after its release.

In their September 27, 1968, controversial “Winnipeg Statement,” the bishops opened a door for couples to use contraception, stating that if a couple has "tried sincerely but without success to pursue a line of conduct in keeping with the given directives, they may be safely assured that, whoever honestly chooses that course which seems right to him does so in good conscience."

Monsignor Vincent Foy, who was known until his death as the foremost expert on the Canadian bishops’ dissent in Winnipeg, wrote that Baum’s influence over the bishops’ proceedings at that time cast a “black shadow.”

“If it had not been for the black shadow of Baum over Winnipeg, his influence over some Bishops, the Canadian theological establishment and pressure groups, the Winnipeg Statement of the Canadian Bishops on Humanae Vitae would not have refused to endorse the teaching of the encyclical as it did,” he wrote.

Baum revealed in a book published this year that he secretly led an active ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ life for decades.

In The Oil Has Not Run Dry: The Story of My Theological Pathway, Baum states that he chose to keep his ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity a secret while appearing to be a faithful priest so he could continue to exert his influence within the Catholic Church.

“I did not profess my own ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity in public because such an act of honesty would have reduced my influence as a critical theologian,” he wrote.

“I was eager to be heard as a theologian trusting in God as salvator mundi (Savior of the world) and committed to social justice, liberation theology, and global solidarity,” he added.

In his book, Baum details his ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ experiences.

“I was 40 years old when I had my first sɛҳuąƖ encounter with a man. I met him in a restaurant in London. This was exciting and at the same time disappointing, for I knew what love was and what I really wanted was to share my life with a partner.”

He wrote that he considered resigning from the priesthood but did not go through with the formality, rather choosing to announce it in the national newspaper. He later married a divorced ex-nun who he says “did not mind that, when we moved to Montreal in 1986, I met Normand, a former priest, with whom I fell in love.” Normand, he wrote, “is gαy and welcomed my sɛҳuąƖ embrace.”

Noted Toronto Catholic priest and Vatican consultant Fr. Thomas Rosica hosted a controversial appearance of Baum at the Catholic Newman Centre of the University of Toronto in 1996 and in 2012 made him a featured guest on his Canadian Catholic TV station Salt and Light Television (https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/same-sex-marriage-advocate-gregory-baum-lauded-by-fr.-thomas-rosica).
During the Salt and Light interview, Fr. Rosica professed to having known Baum for a long time and praised him for his theology.

“I’ve certainly admired very much your theology, your writings but also your love of the Church, your love of Christ, and you helped to keep alive not only the spirit of the Second Vatican Council but also the authentic teaching of the Council,” Fr. Rosica said of Baum.
“You remain a faithful, deeply devoted Catholic, love Jesus, the Church, the Eucharist,” he added.

Monsignor Foy, on the other hand, considered Baum as having “done more than any person to harm the Church in Canada.”
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/gαy-ex-priest-who-pushed-canadian-bishops-to-reject-contraception-teaching (https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/gαy-ex-priest-who-pushed-canadian-bishops-to-reject-contraception-teaching)

It is reasonable enough to charge someone like this of being a Marrano, but I have gotten the impression that Gottmituns suspects all Catholics of Jєωιѕн heritage of intending harm to the Church.  This does not seem fair to those who have sincerely converted.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 11, 2017, 03:33:01 AM
It is reasonable enough to charge someone like this of being a Marrano, but I have gotten the impression that Gottmituns suspects all Catholics of Jєωιѕн heritage of intending harm to the Church.

  Possibly ma'am, but there's no cause to commit a similar wrong even intending a right end; besides, he can answer y/n for himself, or tacitly "yes" in not responding promptly enough subsequent to any other posts that he makes.

 This does not seem fair to those who have sincerely converted.

  Presuming that they have which, without adequate evidence to the contrary, justice and prudence demands; actual enemies of the Faith can exploit the unfounded, and so drive wedges for the purpose of breaching, dividing and conquering. Frankly, there's more that a whiff of that in the air at current, if you'll pardon.

  As far as "heritage" goes, I think most would be surprised exactly what their own is, contingent upon how this is defined.

   It would be very interesting to see a statistical breakdown as to who doesn't have "Jew blood". It wouldn't surprise me to find that those professing to be such to have similar or less in their genetic makeup.

   I'm adopted myself so, for all that I know, I'm part "Hymie" myself. "Oi vey!"

Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 11, 2017, 03:57:21 AM
I was born and raised Jєωιѕн.  Gotmittuns has accused me of being a Marrano on multiple occasions.

I was baptized at sixteen years of age, but by heretics, and became Catholic when I was 21.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 11, 2017, 04:06:31 AM
I was born and raised Jєωιѕн.  Gotmittuns has accused me of being a Marrano on multiple occasions.

 If so, and in writing "if" I'm merely allowing for innocent error, then that is regrettable to say the least; in that case, I'm sorry about that. You seem pretty Marian to me ma'am, and I've not seen any indication otherwise thus far.

I was baptized at sixteen years of age, but by heretics, and became Catholic when I was 21.

  Question with a purpose, not to cause needless offense and in light of the topic, but does that make you a traitor and, if so, whom did you betray?

Regardless, I think all are blessed by your possible "treason"; either way, a long belated welcome to the "other" tribe to you ma'am.

Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 11, 2017, 04:09:39 AM
As far as I know, most Jews consider me a traitor.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 11, 2017, 04:16:05 AM
As far as I know, most Jews consider me a traitor.
The more "observant" they are, the more likely that is. 

Dranged if you do... :P 

Just can't win, can you?
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: poche on November 11, 2017, 05:51:15 AM
St. Pius X:  "The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jєωιѕн people. "

Theodore Herzl:  "We are not asking for Jerusalem, but for Palestine—for only the secular land."

St. Pius X:  "We cannot be in favor of it."

**********************************************************************************************************

The Tribe: We financed you all the way from Wall Street.  Now we expect your full cooperation in helping us fill up Palestine with you know who.

Hitler:  Yes, yes, but of course.  I am at your service.
It looks like Pope Pius X engaging in dialog with a Jew.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 11, 2017, 05:53:59 AM
It looks like Pope Pius X engaging in dialog with a Jew.
If "non-possimus" counts as "dialog" for you, then that figures.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: poche on November 11, 2017, 10:16:00 PM
If "non-possimus" counts as "dialog" for you, then that figures.
That is part of dialog sometimes. We explain the Catholic Faith to the unbeliever.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 12, 2017, 12:28:21 AM
That is part of dialog sometimes. We explain the Catholic Faith to the unbeliever.
If all talking is dialog, then why call it dialog? 

No p, when a Pope speaks like that, it isn't a coffee klatch, it's the Supreme Authority, knowing full well what he is, and how grave that is, telling a lesser and an enemy how it is. 

You may as well call it "'dialog" when a felon meets a judge.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: poche on November 12, 2017, 01:37:46 AM
If all talking is dialog, then why call it dialog?

No p, when a Pope speaks like that, it isn't a coffee klatch, it's the Supreme Authority, knowing full well what he is, and how grave that is, telling a lesser and an enemy how it is.

You may as well call it "'dialog" when a felon meets a judge.
In the case of Pope St. Pius X, the hope is that the 'felon' would convert.  
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 12, 2017, 01:41:20 AM
In the case of Pope St. Pius X, the hope is that the 'felon' would convert.  
In the case of the judge...

Regardless, so what? 

"No sir, I wasn't trying to dishonor your daughter; we were just 'dialogging'. I talk better with my pants off."

Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: alaric on November 12, 2017, 06:11:25 AM
Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ? (https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/was-colonel-claus-von-stauffenberg-a-german-traitor-or-catholic-hero/msg577391/#msg577391)

How about a Catholic traitor?

I really don't see how his attempted assassination and coup of the NS govt would've benefited the Church in anyway.

Yet his actions would help accelerate the eventual  demise of the one nation that was fighting against Catholicism's enemies in Europe and abroad. Maybe he didn't see it that way, but , Hitler and Germany were indeed crushed within a year of his execution. But, was Germany better off afterwards? Was Europe any better when the anti-Christ commies took over half of it and the secualr humanists/masons took over the other half? Was the world really any better when the last real anti-Jєωιѕн/Bolshevek, anti/Masonic, antibankster/usury, etc resistance was crushed once and for all?

Tell us, has Germany or the world for that matter been a better place since the Jew-controlled Allies won that war?

Yea, take a good look around and tell me if von Stauffenberg could look himself in the mirror right now and tell himself he was ridding the wolrd of a "tyrant" and doing the right thing for his  Germany and his Church.

Germany with Hitler;

(http://www1.curriculum.edu.au/ddunits/images/ms3fq2_7.jpg)

Germany since Hitler;

(http://media.themalaymailonline.com/uploads/articles/2016-07/aGERMANY0407s.JPG)
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: alaric on November 12, 2017, 06:17:28 AM
As far as I know, most Jews consider me a traitor.
Why? I don't see anything you post to be consider "traitorous" to the Jєωιѕн agenda.
Other than the fact you converted to Catholicism.
And much of that has been highly judaized these days.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: alaric on November 12, 2017, 06:22:40 AM
It looks like Pope Pius X engaging in dialog with a Jew.
The vicar of Christ has no business "dialoging" with the devil.
What did the conversation with Jesus and Satan consist of  other than telling him to get lost?
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/eb/f7/c7/ebf7c7cf471ee3fd85938d36b39006ba--yeshua-jesus-son-of-god.jpg)
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 12, 2017, 06:23:10 AM
Why? I don't see anything you post to be consider "traitorous" to the Jєωιѕн agenda.
Other than the fact you converted to Catholicism.

That would be more than enough.

And much of that has been highly judaized these days.

Thus far as I've seen, you think more Jew than she does, such as in holding that Catholicism can be Judaised. If you're going to pick on someone, why not try a not woman? Better yet, why don't you safety that thing and try it again with a little less assyness?
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 12, 2017, 07:00:52 AM
Why? I don't see anything you post to be consider "traitorous" to the Jєωιѕн agenda.
Other than the fact you converted to Catholicism.
And much of that has been highly judaized these days.
For many (maybe most) Jews, just converting to Catholicism is enough to make me a traitor in their eyes.  I am also anti-Zionist, express skepticism about the h0Ɩ0cαųst narrative, and acknowledge disproportionate influence by Jews in politics, media, etc.  Any one of those things would be considered traitorous.

I just want to make clear that I am not complaining about it.  It has been a good thing because right from the beginning it has been obvious to me that I had to choose between Judaism and Christianity.  There are groups around like "Jews for Jesus" and "Association of Hebrew Catholics" that try to tell people they can have both, so I am grateful that I didn't get confused by this and accept their Judaizing.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 12, 2017, 07:04:56 AM
DZPlease wrote:
Quote
 If you're going to pick on someone, why not try a not woman? 

Although it was not necessary for you to defend me, I have to say that seeing a man's chivalrous instincts makes me feel warm all over.   

Thanks for making me feel good.   :)
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 12, 2017, 07:24:07 AM
DZPlease wrote:
Although it was not necessary for you to defend me, I have to say that seeing a man's chivalrous instincts makes me feel warm all over.  

Thanks for making me feel good.   :)
Had I a wife around, and I weren't, I would hope for and expect the same ma'am, within proper and Catholic bounds of course.

Thank God though, for it's a duty, not an option. 

Besides, it's likely borne of compulsion, and not chivalry. I don't deal well with nonsense or bullying; this isn't a matter of virtue, but more of psychology. 

For instance, there's all this talk of honor and nobility, but when it comes to actions, we get things like a gang up on a woman. 

In this instance, it wouldn't matter if you're a Jewess or otherwise; you are being polite, at least trying to be fair and reasonable, and are going out of your way to not be offensive, "hidden" and unproven motives aside. 

Someone who is out of bounds, is out of bounds, married or not, Catholic or not, but people need to remember that if they're going to "give the business" to a woman, the honorable and non-cowardly/non-bullying thing to do would be to not speak to her any differently than if her male family were about; granted, if they were then it likely wouldn't, and shouldn't, get that far, but the point remains regardless.

We go by what is manifest, not by what may be.

But, to be polite, you're welcome ma'am.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 12, 2017, 07:38:30 AM
One of the best things about being an old fat woman with no sex appeal whatsoever (except to my husband, oddly enough) is that I get to express appreciation for men without it coming across as flirting.  That is nice for me because I really like men.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 12, 2017, 07:44:33 AM
One of the best things about being an old fat woman with no sex appeal whatsoever (except to my husband, oddly enough) is that I get to express appreciation for men without it coming across as flirting.  That is nice for me because I really like men.
Which helps, because we tend to be a bit thick and need clear feedback.

This is part of why I chose a goofy dog as a profile pic, besides liking stupid, goofy, affable dogs that is.

If you think about it ma'am, being "mini Marys" includes speaking as or for her after a fashion, so that we are better motivated and guided.

This is why we are to love women, as women, with "woman" being defined by the woman.

Real women are her ambassadors, her spokespersons, though as such you speak most often and by a kind of special silence, just as in Scripture.

It's a massive, and generally underappreciated, responsibility.

Speaking of, I don't think that you should speak of yourself in such an unflattering manner, for her sake if not yours.

Regardless, "Deo gratias, et Mariae".
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: alaric on November 12, 2017, 09:38:46 AM

Quote
That would be more than enough.
Sure, if you're a Marrano.

Quote
Thus far as I've seen, you think more Jew than she does,
So not sucking up to Jews and their minions is thinking "more" Jєωιѕн. 

Ok, try and explain that one away sharp guy.

Quote
uch as in holding that Catholicism can be Judaised. 

You were saying?

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-IQ5UQZ5aRo8/WHfCZ_-A7FI/AAAAAAAAGm0/lumymvgWTgEzpLWpvaDKh4rwBaaGm0-xACLcB/s640/Clipboard27.jpg)


Quote
If you're going to pick on someone, why not try a not woman?
Hey look , I'm not "picking" on anyone, just answering the OP and making an observation of   JK's replies. Why don't you mind you're own business and stick to the topic at hand instead of playing Internet Sir Galadouche. I know it's hard to stay on point for guys like you, but try and focus on the topic and the questions I asked in rebuttal there loverboy.



Quote
Better yet, why don't you safety that thing and try it again with a little less assyness?
I can defintely see English isn't your first language there special"DK" and I'm not exactly a grammar nαzι myself, but can you at least put together a  complete coherent sentence so someone might actually know what the hell you're trying to say?

How's that for "assyness" schmuckster?
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 12, 2017, 09:43:49 AM
Sure, if you're a Marrano.
So not sucking up to Jews and their minions is thinking "more" Jєωιѕн.

Ok, try and explain that one away sharp guy.
You were saying?

(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-IQ5UQZ5aRo8/WHfCZ_-A7FI/AAAAAAAAGm0/lumymvgWTgEzpLWpvaDKh4rwBaaGm0-xACLcB/s640/Clipboard27.jpg)

Hey look , I'm not "picking" on anyone, just answering the OP and making an observation of   JK's replies. Why don't you mind you're own business and stick to the topic at hand instead of playing Internet Sir Galadouche. I know it's hard to stay on point for guys like you, but try and focus on the topic and the questions I asked in rebuttal there loverboy.


I can defintely see English isn't your first language there special"DK" and I'm not exactly a grammar nαzι myself, but can you at least put together a  complete coherent sentence so someone might actually know what the hell you're trying to say?

How's that for "assyness" schmuckster?
Your ratio is starting to make me seriously doubt CI's integrity, but it is more likely that you've taken up drinking antifreeze in the interim, or you're a hacker.

Rant to yourself either way tweaker. 

Bye.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 12, 2017, 09:47:13 AM
Sure, if you're a Marrano.
I am not sure what point you are making.  Could you explain or rephrase this please?
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 12, 2017, 09:48:59 AM
I am not sure what point you are making.  Could you explain or rephrase this please?
Axes, as such, don't have points ma'am. 

Ugliness tends to lord, as is seen clearly here.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: alaric on November 12, 2017, 09:51:12 AM
For many (maybe most) Jews, just converting to Catholicism is enough to make me a traitor in their eyes.  I am also anti-Zionist, express skepticism about the h0Ɩ0cαųst narrative, and acknowledge disproportionate influence by Jews in politics, media, etc.  Any one of those things would be considered traitorous.

I just want to make clear that I am not complaining about it.  It has been a good thing because right from the beginning it has been obvious to me that I had to choose between Judaism and Christianity.  There are groups around like "Jews for Jesus" and "Association of Hebrew Catholics" that try to tell people they can have both, so I am grateful that I didn't get confused by this and accept their Judaizing.
I don't know, from what I know, you will always be a "jew" to them, especially the orthodox. Were you born from a Jєωιѕн mother? to them you will always be a Jew, traitor or not.The thing with judaism, is, it is basically a racial religion, you know like the "nαzιs" they go kvetching about so much. At any rate, it's not so much to be just "anti-Zionist", that is very much a misdirect and the jews know it. Christ was not dealing with "zionists" as much as Jews themselves, he knew where their religion had gone and it was no longer spiritual as much as an ethnic and "specialness" with racial overtones. That's what he was condemning, on top of their hypocrisy, which is exactly what the jews of today are guilty of, being racists and hypocrites wrapped around their "religion".
At any rate, I don't see you "anti-jew" as much as a trad Cath from my vantage point, just saying.
And I've been reading your posts a long time.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 12, 2017, 09:52:52 AM
Axes, as such, don't have points ma'am.

Ugliness tends to lord, as is seen clearly here.
Alaric has some history with me years ago on another forum.  There may be some justification for his apparent hostility toward me.  I would rather focus on the content and ignore the tone.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: alaric on November 12, 2017, 09:53:50 AM
I am not sure what point you are making.  Could you explain or rephrase this please?
Jayne, I know, you know what a Marrano is. I'm not exactly saying you're one.
But you know where I'm going.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 12, 2017, 10:00:16 AM
Alaric has some history with me years ago on another forum.  There may be some justification for his apparent hostility toward me.  I would rather focus on the content and ignore the tone.
As "Jayne K", correct? 
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 12, 2017, 10:01:20 AM
I don't know, from what I know, you will always be a "jew" to them, especially the orthodox. Were you born from a Jєωιѕн mother? to them you will always be a Jew, traitor or not.The thing with judaism, is, it is basically a racial religion, you know like the "nαzιs" they go kvetching about so much. At any rate, it's not so much to be just "anti-Zionist", that is very much a misdirect and the jews know it. Christ was not dealing with "zionists" as much as Jews themselves, he knew where their religion had gone and it was no longer spiritual as much as an ethnic and "specialness" with racial overtones. That's what he was condemning, on top of their hypocrisy, which is exactly what the jews of today are guilty of, being racists and hypocrites wrapped around their "religion".
At any rate, I don't see you "anti-jew" as much as a trad Cath from my vantage point, just saying.
And I've been reading your posts a long time.
I would much rather be seen as a traditional Catholic than an anti-jew, so that works out very well.
:)

I think you are right about it being a racial and racist religion and that some Jews still see me as a Jew.  But they have a lot of different opinions on this and it is hard to keep track of which branch of Judaism thinks what.  I know that converts like me are not allowed to immigrate to Israel on the grounds that we are not really Jєωιѕн.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 12, 2017, 10:02:12 AM
As "Jayne K", correct?
Yes.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 12, 2017, 10:04:59 AM
I would much rather be seen as a traditional Catholic than an anti-jew, so that works out very well.
:)

I think you are right about it being a racial and racist religion and that some Jews still see me as a Jew.  But they have a lot of different opinions on this and it is hard to keep track of which branch of Judaism thinks what.  I know that converts like me are not allowed to immigrate to Israel on the grounds that we are not really Jєωιѕн.
Ma'am, Christ is Lord; if we dance to another tune, just who is kidding who?

The Jews, all summed, are IRRELEVANT.
If you're Catholic then who, if you'll pardon, gives a shit what a bunch of Christ killing reprobati, or their like who think themselves their opposite, think?
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 12, 2017, 10:10:19 AM
Jayne, I know, you know what a Marrano is. I'm not exactly saying you're one.
But you know where I'm going.
I really found it difficult to follow (in part because of the way the quoting works on this forum).  Rereading the last couple pages of the thread, I am wondering if you are saying that Jews would probably not think of me as a traitor, but assume that I am only pretending to be Catholic in order to harm the Church.
Is that what you meant?  In any event, that has not been my experience. I find that Jews tend to be hostile and negative about me becoming Catholic.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 12, 2017, 10:12:20 AM
The Jews, all summed, are IRRELEVANT.
If you're Catholic then who, if you'll pardon, gives a shit what a bunch of Christ killing reprobati, or their like who think themselves their opposite, think?
I don't care about what Jews think of me.  But I have to admit that it bothers me when Catholics accuse me of being a Marrano.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 12, 2017, 10:18:10 AM
I don't care about what Jews think of me.  But I have to admit that it bothers me when Catholics accuse me of being a Marrano.
While they may be Catholic, I don't see them doing so as such ma'am.

I'll grant that there may be backstory of which I am unaware, but thus far what these do at present is gravely to mortally sinful; I hope, for their sake, that you at least were such.

Either way, I trust that you now can and will take such abuse and nail it to the Cross.

As to your likely detractors, perhaps it would edify all for you to contemplate the Lord's prayer, in particularly the portion which pleads that He forgive us, AS WE FORGIVE OTHERS.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 12, 2017, 10:37:11 AM
Either way, I trust that you now can and will take such abuse and nail it to the Cross.

As to your likely detractors, perhaps it would edify all for you to contemplate the Lord's prayer, in particularly the portion which pleads that He forgive us, AS WE FORGIVE OTHERS.
I know you are right but I still struggle with it.  

I can even see how people could have gotten that idea.  I had spent around 30 years attending the Novus Ordo and even taken university religion courses before I discovered traditional Catholicism.  When I first turned up on trad forums, my posts were heavily influenced by modernism.  It is perfectly understandable that people would see modernist influence as Jєωιѕн influence considering how closely linked they are.

I am not angry at people who did that. There is probably more need for them to forgive me than for me to forgive them.  I was a pretty obnoxious poster.  

Maybe I still am, but I like to think I have improved.   :)
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 12, 2017, 10:42:33 AM
I know you are right but I still struggle with it.  

I can even see how people could have gotten that idea.  I had spent around 30 years attending the Novus Ordo and even taken university religion courses before I discovered traditional Catholicism.  When I first turned up on trad forums, my posts were heavily influenced by modernism.  It is perfectly understandable that people would see modernist influence as Jєωιѕн influence considering how closely linked they are.

I am not angry at people who did that. There is probably more need for them to forgive me than for me to forgive them.  I was a pretty obnoxious poster.  

Maybe I still am, but I like to think I have improved.   :)
Ma'am, my poor grammar is to blame; I meant them forgiving you, if called for, for I've not seen you be even slightly obnoxious yet, and I'm its poster boy.

Yesterday is yesterday, and today is today; how can we attain to Heaven with Hell on our backs?
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: clarkaim on November 12, 2017, 04:06:17 PM
I was born and raised Jєωιѕн.  Gotmittuns has accused me of being a Marrano on multiple occasions.

I was baptized at sixteen years of age, but by heretics, and became Catholic when I was 21.
What makes a "Jew" a Jew is not some ethno-genetic racial context.  That would just make you that.  What makes a "Jew" is Judaism, or rather an organized naturalism that forsee's and denies the Reality of of Our Lord Jesus Christ, who is God and Man.  If being against Judaism makes me an "αnтι-ѕємιтє", sign me up.  Do I get one of those snazzy SS uniforms?  
 But to hate someone because of an ethnic or racial condition?  Doesn't make sense to me.  Besides, the blessed mother and apostles where of an ethnic group, no doubt long extinct, once known as Jews.  Kazhars are just another caucasoid group, no doubt an enterprising and sneaky bunch
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Incredulous on November 12, 2017, 05:33:31 PM
Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ? (https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/was-colonel-claus-von-stauffenberg-a-german-traitor-or-catholic-hero/msg577391/#msg577391)

How about a Catholic traitor?

I really don't see how his attempted assassination and coup of the NS govt would've benefited the Church in anyway.

Yet his actions would help accelerate the eventual  demise of the one nation that was fighting against Catholicism's enemies in Europe and abroad. Maybe he didn't see it that way, but , Hitler and Germany were indeed crushed within a year of his execution. But, was Germany better off afterwards? Was Europe any better when the anti-Christ commies took over half of it and the secualr humanists/masons took over the other half? Was the world really any better when the last real anti-Jєωιѕн/Bolshevek, anti/Masonic, antibankster/usury, etc resistance was crushed once and for all?

Tell us, has Germany or the world for that matter been a better place since the Jew-controlled Allies won that war?

Yea, take a good look around and tell me if von Stauffenberg could look himself in the mirror right now and tell himself he was ridding the wolrd of a "tyrant" and doing the right thing for his  Germany and his Church.

Germany with Hitler;

(http://www1.curriculum.edu.au/ddunits/images/ms3fq2_7.jpg)

Germany since Hitler;

(http://media.themalaymailonline.com/uploads/articles/2016-07/aGERMANY0407s.JPG)
We're digressing. This is the last post, that stayed "on topic".   :jester:


To respond to Alaric's comments:  What did Col von Stauffenberg know about Hitler... and when did he know it?

In the  Stalinist "Red Symphony" transcripts, we learned Hitler was funded by the Rothschild elites.  
After national recovery, around 1938, when Hitler dared to print money, he became a "Bonapartist", a marked man, as they say.

WWII showed an incredible level of rabbinic sophistication in managing the "international show business".  
FDR, Churchill, Stalin, Hitler were all on the ʝʊdɛօ-masonic payroll. 

But it is hard to discern reality, when the yids are running the show?  

So what did Colonel von Stauffenberg really know about the ʝʊdɛօ-masonic theater?

For example, there's a credible accusation that FDR was found dead in Georgia with a gunshot wound to the head.
The story was effectively covered-up, to claim he had a stroke.

But in the initial story, leaked, said it was a ѕυιcιdє.   A closed room gunshot, meant it could as well have been an assassin.  

(https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=ca43f1dc97&view=fimg&th=15fb279c08cd6292&attid=0.1&disp=emb&realattid=ii_15fb25527ef8d9c9&attbid=ANGjdJ-0iebhJyks1mQDcOKVKGjsH0N_Ie-xxF5rgPMQPLgvdPxgFbI25fez6DpDp80UmFzfR7-khXSzAzN05aj_k39TpLc6CxpprdOlez1atrdxBmsOQ2g9--BKzrU&sz=w600-h600&ats=1510528368686&rm=15fb279c08cd6292&zw&atsh=1)
FDR's closed casket covered-up the head shot
So, the warning that St. Maximilian Kolbe gave to the Freemasons was very accurate and relevant.  

In the 1930's he wrote to tell them based on the Protocols, the jews would annihilate them when the time was right.

If Col. von Stauffenberg had succeeded, at least Germany could have sued for peace, instead of undergoing total destruction.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: poche on November 13, 2017, 02:34:20 AM
The vicar of Christ has no business "dialoging" with the devil.
What did the conversation with Jesus and Satan consist of  other than telling him to get lost?
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/eb/f7/c7/ebf7c7cf471ee3fd85938d36b39006ba--yeshua-jesus-son-of-god.jpg)
In speaking with Herzl, Pope St. Pius wan not speaking with the devil. He was speaking with a man who was in error and in need of enlightenment. 
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: poche on November 13, 2017, 02:36:04 AM
I don't care about what Jews think of me.  But I have to admit that it bothers me when Catholics accuse me of being a Marrano.
It shows that those people's thinking is racial and in contradiction to the mandate of the Gospel.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: GottmitunsAlex on November 13, 2017, 07:38:57 AM
What was to be expected, from the op's "innocent" poll this morphed into a failed attempt to discredit German Catholic bishops and has now turned out to be now an "anti-semitic" thread...

"Woe is me."..

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hayiFmXSW4s/WWLJlh_XATI/AAAAAAAAC90/gbQN-joGjikmWpGRPUswpnvCwwgRzpTOwCLcBGAs/s1600/jews-must-live_Portada.jpg)
Relevant pages: 51-54

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Kk-ORZJGetc/WgkS4nXc5fI/AAAAAAAAHSc/ZL_EOXtW_EEB1oxQWwhfV1tDF6jTI0FeACLcBGAs/s320/Clipboard02.jpg)
Samuel Roth.

Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 13, 2017, 08:13:22 AM
What was to be expected, from the op's "innocent" poll this morphed into a failed attempt to discredit German Catholic bishops and has now turned out to be now an "anti-semitic" thread...
You left out the attempts to discredit the popes who spoke of the Third Reich as oppressors of Catholics.  And the attempts to discredit the bishops and priests who opposed the Reich as political dissidents who deserved what was done to them.

There was only one German Catholic bishop who was discredited in this thread - Bishop Rarkowski, the Field Bishop of the German Army.  He reported to army superiors and was not part of the German hierarchy. He did not have the usual qualifications to be a bishop and seems to have been a politically motivated appointment who, due to his pro-nαzι views, was favoured by the Reich government and used as a bargaining point.  There is no reason to think that anything said by this bishop is credible as Catholic teaching.

A better guide to the thought of German bishops is the fact that in 1931, they issued an edict which excommunicated all leaders of the nαzι Party and banned all Catholics from membership.  With the rise of nαzι power, the bishops had to back down from this position, but it is a good indicator how Catholics should see nαzιs.

The word "anti-semitism" was coined to be a tool for political manipulation by Jews.  It has nothing to do with this thread which is about the relationship between Catholics and nαzιs.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JPaul on November 13, 2017, 10:39:36 AM
What is at issue is not Catholics vs "nαzιs".  There were the German people and their nation Germany.
There were non-Catholics and many Catholics. They were all German citizens, and many of them supporters and members of the National Socialist movement which was a legitimate response to the injustice and degradation which was forced upon that nation.

No one else came to that unfortunate country's defense after WWI. We heard little if anything from the Vatican during that period. There was no encyclical or outcry against the great injustice at Versailles which was both dominated and demanded by an over repesented Jєωιѕн minority. There was no direction as to how German Catholics were to respond or live within the horrors and perversities of Wiemar Germany.

As I understand it, the Bishop who was most responsible for Mit Brenner had conflicted with the NS government, was himself a stong sympathiser with the Jews and saw their treatment  as a violation against God's chosen people. 

What has always puzzled me is why there was never any official Catholic response to the almost complete destruction of the European Catholic infrastucture by Allied bombing and shelling in many countries?
Nor were there any docuмents written against the completely immoral war aims and methods employed by the Allies. Huge numbers of Catholics in Germany's south were incinerated and suffered inhumane privations by continual attacks and bombing of civilian areas, and yet the Vatican came to the defense of a small and subversive minority in Germany rather than that of its own co-religionists. Were global politics involved at this point? Can there be any doubt?
Did Catholics in the west and the Allied services not deserve a similar encyclical warning them against the policies and tactics of their respective countries and services that were totally un-Catholic and even anti-Christian.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on November 13, 2017, 11:22:55 AM
What is at issue is not Catholics vs "nαzιs".  There were the German people and their nation Germany.
There were non-Catholics and many Catholics. They were all German citizens, and many of them supporters and members of the National Socialist movement which was a legitimate response to the injustice and degradation which was forced upon that nation.

No one else came to that unfortunate country's defense after WWI. We heard little if anything from the Vatican during that period. There was no encyclical or outcry against the great injustice at Versailles which was both dominated and demanded by an over repesented Jєωιѕн minority. There was no direction as to how German Catholics were to respond or live within the horrors and perversities of Wiemar Germany.

As I understand it, the Bishop who was most responsible for Mit Brenner had conflicted with the NS government, was himself a stong sympathiser with the Jews and saw their treatment  as a violation against God's chosen people.

What has always puzzled me is why there was never any official Catholic response to the almost complete destruction of the European Catholic infrastucture by Allied bombing and shelling in many countries?
Nor were there any docuмents written against the completely immoral war aims and methods employed by the Allies. Huge numbers of Catholics in Germany's south were incinerated and suffered inhumane privations by continual attacks and bombing of civilian areas, and yet the Vatican came to the defense of a small and subversive minority in Germany rather than that of its own co-religionists. Were global politics involved at this point? Can there be any doubt?
Did Catholics in the west and the Allied services not deserve a similar encyclical warning them against the policies and tactics of their respective countries and services that were totally un-Catholic and even anti-Christian.
As always, well said.
What seems to keep going over peoples heads is how Pius XI put his political weight behind the election of Hitler and putting into power the NSDAP. I repeat, there WAS NOTHING that "came to light" after the NSDAP came to power that was not known before, and yet suddenly there was a un-Catholic element about them? 
Yet the clergy was chock full of Marxists who were doing all they could to tear down the NSDAP because of the threat to the Jєωιѕн/Masonic power structure. But somehow these clerics are off limits to incarcerate? The moment they chose to imbed themselves and stand for a vile repugnant false religion known as Marxism, they became fair game. And let's also not forget
in the National Socialism Docuмentation Center in Munich, it shows that the largest imprisonment of Catholic clergy involved an intensive NS investigation in 1936-37 into pedophilia at Catholic boarding schools and religious houses. Between May 1936 and July 1937 there were 270 prosecutions of monks and priests for sex crimes involving minors. 

My, my, doesn't this sound all too familiar. At least the NSDAP did something about it. It took almost 5 decades for the Church to likewise only when the coffers were being threatened. 



Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on November 13, 2017, 11:27:33 AM
Let's take a look at another example of Catholic clergy before the war. 

A leading role in forging the public view in Poland is that of Church clergy there. To read what they taught her followers in Poland is truly blood-curdling. In 1922 the Polish Canon of Posen, prelate Kos, recited a song of hate which he had borrowed from a 1902 drama by Lucjan Rydel, "Jency" (The Prisoners): "Where the German sets down his foot, the earth bleeds for 100 years. Where the German carries water and drinks, wells are foul for 100 years. Where the German breathes, the plague rages for 100 years. Where the German shakes hands, peace breaks down. He cheats the strong, he robs and dominates the weak, and if there were a path leading straight to Heaven, he wouldn't hesitate to dethrone God Himself. And we would even see the German steal the sun from the sky." This is by no means a single, individual case. On August 26th, 1920, the Polish pastor in Adelnau said in a speech: "All Germans residing in Poland ought to be hanged." And another Polish proverb: "Zdechly Niemiec, zdechly pies, mala to roznica jest" - "A croaked German, is a croaked dog, is just a small difference"

Here is the text of another Polish-Catholic war song which was sung in 1848 at the Pan-Slavic Congress in Prague:

"Brothers, take up your scythes! Let us hurry to war!
Poland's oppression is over, we shall tarry no more.
Gather hordes about yourselves. Our enemy, the German, shall fall!
Loot and rob and burn! Let the enemies die a painful death.
He that hangs the German dogs will gain God's reward.
I, the provost, promise you shall attain Heaven for it.
Every sin will be forgiven, even well-planned murder,
If it promotes Polish freedom everywhere.
But curses on the evil one who dares speak well of Germany to us.
Poland shall and must survive. The Pope and God have promised it.
Russia and Prussia must fall. Hail the Polish banner!
So rejoice ye all: Polzka zyje, great and small!"

Not only did some of the priests excel in rhetoric aimed at cultivating deadly hate against Germans during the pre-1939 years, they also prayed in their churches, "O wielk wojn ludów prosimy Cie, Panie! (We pray to you for the great War of Peoples, oh Lord!)"

Sadly, they actively participated in murdering unsuspecting German soldiers. Cardinal Wyszynski confirmed the fact 'that during the war there was not one single Polish priest who did not fight against the Germans with a weapon in his hand.' The war lasted only three short weeks, the German occupation lasted several years. This explains the extraordinary high number of priest-partisans who even were joined by bishops. Further back in history, we find that the Archbishop of Gnesen, around the turn of the 13th century, had the habit of calling the Germans 'dog heads'. He criticized a bishop from Brixen that he would have preached excellently, had he not been a dog-head and a German.


So you see, many of these so called priests were no angels.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on November 13, 2017, 11:31:48 AM
We're digressing. This is the last post, that stayed "on topic".   :jester:


To respond to Alaric's comments:  What did Col von Stauffenberg know about Hitler... and when did he know it?

In the  Stalinist "Red Symphony" transcripts, we learned Hitler was funded by the Rothschild elites.  
After national recovery, around 1938, when Hitler dared to print money, he became a "Bonapartist", a marked man, as they say.

WWII showed an incredible level of rabbinic sophistication in managing the "international show business".  
FDR, Churchill, Stalin, Hitler were all on the ʝʊdɛօ-masonic payroll.

But it is hard to discern reality, when the yids are running the show?  

So what did Colonel von Stauffenberg really know about the ʝʊdɛօ-masonic theater?

For example, there's a credible accusation that FDR was found dead in Georgia with a gunshot wound to the head.
The story was effectively covered-up, to claim he had a stroke.

But in the initial story, leaked, said it was a ѕυιcιdє.   A closed room gunshot, meant it could as well have been an assassin.  

(https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=ca43f1dc97&view=fimg&th=15fb279c08cd6292&attid=0.1&disp=emb&realattid=ii_15fb25527ef8d9c9&attbid=ANGjdJ-0iebhJyks1mQDcOKVKGjsH0N_Ie-xxF5rgPMQPLgvdPxgFbI25fez6DpDp80UmFzfR7-khXSzAzN05aj_k39TpLc6CxpprdOlez1atrdxBmsOQ2g9--BKzrU&sz=w600-h600&ats=1510528368686&rm=15fb279c08cd6292&zw&atsh=1)
FDR's closed casket covered-up the head shot
So, the warning that St. Maximilian Kolbe gave to the Freemasons was very accurate and relevant.  

In the 1930's he wrote to tell them based on the Protocols, the jews would annihilate them when the time was right.

If Col. von Stauffenberg had succeeded, at least Germany could have sued for peace, instead of undergoing total destruction.
This is so full of damage control propaganda it's pathetic. Hitler was on the payroll of the Masons? And your citing Stalinist docuмents as sources?  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on November 13, 2017, 11:36:00 AM
What was to be expected, from the op's "innocent" poll this morphed into a failed attempt to discredit German Catholic bishops and has now turned out to be now an "anti-semitic" thread...

"Woe is me."..

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hayiFmXSW4s/WWLJlh_XATI/AAAAAAAAC90/gbQN-joGjikmWpGRPUswpnvCwwgRzpTOwCLcBGAs/s1600/jews-must-live_Portada.jpg)
Relevant pages: 51-54

(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Kk-ORZJGetc/WgkS4nXc5fI/AAAAAAAAHSc/ZL_EOXtW_EEB1oxQWwhfV1tDF6jTI0FeACLcBGAs/s320/Clipboard02.jpg)
Samuel Roth.
 And to go along with that title.


(http://i64.tinypic.com/5l3upd.jpg)

Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Incredulous on November 13, 2017, 11:37:56 AM
What is at issue is not Catholics vs "nαzιs".  There were the German people and their nation Germany.
There were non-Catholics and many Catholics. They were all German citizens, and many of them supporters and members of the National Socialist movement which was a legitimate response to the injustice and degradation which was forced upon that nation.

No one else came to that unfortunate country's defense after WWI. We heard little if anything from the Vatican during that period. There was no encyclical or outcry against the great injustice at Versailles which was both dominated and demanded by an over repesented Jєωιѕн minority. There was no direction as to how German Catholics were to respond or live within the horrors and perversities of Wiemar Germany.

As I understand it, the Bishop who was most responsible for Mit Brenner had conflicted with the NS government, was himself a stong sympathiser with the Jews and saw their treatment  as a violation against God's chosen people.

What has always puzzled me is why there was never any official Catholic response to the almost complete destruction of the European Catholic infrastucture by Allied bombing and shelling in many countries?
Nor were there any docuмents written against the completely immoral war aims and methods employed by the Allies. Huge numbers of Catholics in Germany's south were incinerated and suffered inhumane privations by continual attacks and bombing of civilian areas, and yet the Vatican came to the defense of a small and subversive minority in Germany rather than that of its own co-religionists. Were global politics involved at this point? Can there be any doubt?
Did Catholics in the west and the Allied services not deserve a similar encyclical warning them against the policies and tactics of their respective countries and services that were totally un-Catholic and even anti-Christian.

Boy, that's a whole separate topic.

Pope Pius XII's tenure was filled with ambiguities.

He knew the Germans and the communist threat better than anyone but was virtually silent on "Uncle Joe" rat Stalin.

Instead, he spent a lot of energy making fake passports for the jews and was given $1 million by Golda Meier afterwards.

And how about the Fatima Consecration, which he knew how to execute, but failed to do so?

And his handling of Montini after he was caught negotiating with the Russians and revealing where Catholic clerics were in the country.


(http://www.papalartifacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/montini-and-pius-xii.jpg)

Yep, Pope Pacelli is whole separate, mega-topic. 
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 13, 2017, 11:51:20 AM
If he's a pope, then please speak of him as such; if he isn't, then don't call him pope.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JPaul on November 13, 2017, 06:37:32 PM
Boy, that's a whole separate topic.

Pope Pius XII's tenure was filled with ambiguities.

He knew the Germans and the communist threat better than anyone but was virtually silent on "Uncle Joe" rat Stalin.

Instead, he spent a lot of energy making fake passports for the jews and was given $1 million by Golda Meier afterwards.

And how about the Fatima Consecration, which he knew how to execute, but failed to do so?

And his handling of Montini after he was caught negotiating with the Russians and revealing where Catholic clerics were in the country.


(http://www.papalartifacts.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/montini-and-pius-xii.jpg)

Yep, Pope Pacelli is whole separate, mega-topic.
The Church has always been political in the true sense of that word, meaning that she concerned Herself with matters of justice in the various worldly spheres of governance, economics, and social structure, so that these things might comport with the natural law and the model which was the ancient Hebrew society of the Old Testament. 
This again was not the modern idea of such realms which today are devoid of the Divine nature and intent.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: GottmitunsAlex on November 13, 2017, 10:06:56 PM
I amazes me how Jews twist the topics in an attempt to follow an agenda. This thread has been seriously derailed.
JPAUL and LeDeg: Thank you for your spot on contribution to this subversive natured thread.. 
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 14, 2017, 01:56:23 AM
I amazes me how Jews twist the topics in an attempt to follow an agenda. This thread has been seriously derailed.
JPAUL and LeDeg: Thank you for your spot on contribution to this subversive natured thread..
Ah well, that saves future wasted time.

No response, save gratuitous and guileful insinuation.

Good to know, and done.

Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JPaul on November 14, 2017, 09:43:02 AM
I amazes me how Jews twist the topics in an attempt to follow an agenda. This thread has been seriously derailed.

It is really to be expected, that is their way, and for others, we must consider that the majority of folks have been poorly served by the "education" sytems and then culturally indoctrinated into the anti-Christ worldview.
And I easily admit to having been such a man for the better part of my life. People must know or sense that there is truth beyond what they know, or think that they know before a search for it can ensue.
It is very hard to unlearn the false realities of the world.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Incredulous on November 14, 2017, 02:27:43 PM
This is so full of damage control propaganda it's pathetic. Hitler was on the payroll of the Masons? And your citing Stalinist docuмents as sources?  :facepalm:


Yes, he was funded by "ʝʊdɛօ-masons".

Or do you think Hitler was a self-funded financial whiz?

After three rounds of post war hyper-inflation, Germany was on it's knees.

Here's a video of a highly organized and well funded nαzι party rally in Nuremberg: 1933 nαzι rally (https://youtu.be/4MaWSTPSA2k)
Who paid for these rallies ?  Germany was far worse off financially than the US.

1933, the very same year Hitler came to power, FDR banned Jєωιѕн immigration into the US ?   The timing was not a coincidence.


There was an ulterior motive, to funding of the nαzι's rise to power.

The zionist elite "theme" was to herd all the jews back into Palestine.  

The jews really didn't want to go to that outback, but this Hitler accomplished, through selected persecutions and the war.

Here's a lecture on it: The "final solution" to Hitler (https://youtu.be/YDf4RYxD0Js)      

Debunk it if you can  :jester:
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on November 14, 2017, 03:29:53 PM

Yes, he was funded by "ʝʊdɛօ-masons".

Or do you think Hitler was a self-funded financial whiz?

After three rounds of post war hyper-inflation, Germany was on it's knees.

Here's a video of a highly organized and well funded nαzι party rally in Nuremberg: 1933 nαzι rally (https://youtu.be/4MaWSTPSA2k)
Who paid for these rallies ?  Germany was far worse off financially than the US.

1933, the very same year Hitler came to power, FDR banned Jєωιѕн immigration into the US ?   The timing was not a coincidence.


There was an ulterior motive, to funding of the nαzι's rise to power.

The zionist elite "theme" was to herd all the jews back into Palestine.  

The jews really didn't want to go to that outback, but this Hitler accomplished, through selected persecutions and the war.

Here's a lecture on it: The "final solution" to Hitler (https://youtu.be/YDf4RYxD0Js)      

Debunk it if you can  :jester:
When I get the time, I will be happy to.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JPaul on November 14, 2017, 04:23:13 PM
Removing the usurers from the system, nationalizing the money supply, switching to a labor/resource based monitary system, and other remedies revived the German economy almost overnight, and after three years it was booming and the strongest in Europe while the U.S. was still suffering from a depression.

It is all in the record for those who are inclined to do some honest research on the subject.

Germany was at war with the Jews, and Masonry, and the Communists which were both dominated by Jews.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: St Ignatius on November 14, 2017, 04:37:33 PM
It is all in the record for those who are inclined to do some honest research on the subject.

Maybe this article for starters for anyone that may be interested...

Click title below...

How Hitler Defied the International Bankers (https://archive.org/stream/HowHitlerDefiedTheInternationalBankers/HowHitlerDefiedTheBankers_djvu.txt)
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JPaul on November 14, 2017, 07:03:00 PM
Maybe this article for starters for anyone that may be interested...

Click title below...

How Hitler Defied the International Bankers (https://archive.org/stream/HowHitlerDefiedTheInternationalBankers/HowHitlerDefiedTheBankers_djvu.txt)
Yes, things like this.  Thanks for providing an example.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on November 14, 2017, 07:34:34 PM
Thank you, St Ignatius and JPaul. The article contains pretty much the information I was going to bring forth.


I would counter the Condit video with this. This interview with Dennis Wise, who produced the epic films, The Greatest Story Never Told and Communism Through the Back Door, which I cannot recommend more, is conducted by Kyle Hunt who produced Hellstorm, which docuмents the real "h0Ɩ0cαųst", i.e., the bombing of Dresden. Dennis Wise is a Trad Catholic, and I've conversed with him via email. This interview specifically singles out Condit, amongst others, and his/their canards. Dennis' family were from Croatia and Dennis is a British citizen. His father fought for Hitler in the war and were devout Catholics.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC_-9i_hcL0



I don't need to refute Condit. It has been aptly done by smarter and more informed men than I already.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on November 14, 2017, 07:45:26 PM
Great short presentation by Mr. Wise. As always, he nails it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqs09Xjj4q0

Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: alaric on November 16, 2017, 04:42:44 PM
I would much rather be seen as a traditional Catholic than an anti-jew, so that works out very well.
:)

I think you are right about it being a racial and racist religion and that some Jews still see me as a Jew.  But they have a lot of different opinions on this and it is hard to keep track of which branch of Judaism thinks what.  I know that converts like me are not allowed to immigrate to Israel on the grounds that we are not really Jєωιѕн.
That is an interesting point, although I don't believe it is an absolute statement;
The Law of Return (Hebrew (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language)חֹוק הַשְׁבוּת‎, ḥok ha-shvūt) is an Israeli law, passed on 5 July 1950, which gives Jews (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F) theright to come (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return) and live in Israel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) and to gain Israeli citizenship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_nationality_law).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return#cite_note-1) In 1970, the right of entry and settlement was extended to people with one Jєωιѕн grandparent and a person who is married to a Jew, whether or not he or she is considered Jєωιѕн (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zera_Yisrael) under Orthodox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Judaism) interpretations of Halakha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha).[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return#cite_note-jpost-2)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return



Do you have at least one Jєωιѕн grandparent?

Ironically, Israel has some of  the same standards that the NS German govt had under the Nuremberg Laws classifying one as a "jew";


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws#Classifications_under_the_laws
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: alaric on November 16, 2017, 04:54:58 PM
We're digressing. This is the last post, that stayed "on topic".   :jester:


To respond to Alaric's comments:  What did Col von Stauffenberg know about Hitler... and when did he know it?

In the  Stalinist "Red Symphony" transcripts, we learned Hitler was funded by the Rothschild elites.  
After national recovery, around 1938, when Hitler dared to print money, he became a "Bonapartist", a marked man, as they say.

WWII showed an incredible level of rabbinic sophistication in managing the "international show business".  
FDR, Churchill, Stalin, Hitler were all on the ʝʊdɛօ-masonic payroll.

But it is hard to discern reality, when the yids are running the show?  

So what did Colonel von Stauffenberg really know about the ʝʊdɛօ-masonic theater?

For example, there's a credible accusation that FDR was found dead in Georgia with a gunshot wound to the head.
The story was effectively covered-up, to claim he had a stroke.

But in the initial story, leaked, said it was a ѕυιcιdє.   A closed room gunshot, meant it could as well have been an assassin.  

(https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?ui=2&ik=ca43f1dc97&view=fimg&th=15fb279c08cd6292&attid=0.1&disp=emb&realattid=ii_15fb25527ef8d9c9&attbid=ANGjdJ-0iebhJyks1mQDcOKVKGjsH0N_Ie-xxF5rgPMQPLgvdPxgFbI25fez6DpDp80UmFzfR7-khXSzAzN05aj_k39TpLc6CxpprdOlez1atrdxBmsOQ2g9--BKzrU&sz=w600-h600&ats=1510528368686&rm=15fb279c08cd6292&zw&atsh=1)
FDR's closed casket covered-up the head shot
So, the warning that St. Maximilian Kolbe gave to the Freemasons was very accurate and relevant.  

In the 1930's he wrote to tell them based on the Protocols, the jews would annihilate them when the time was right.

If Col. von Stauffenberg had succeeded, at least Germany could have sued for peace, instead of undergoing total destruction.
Germany was targeted for total anihilation either way, they openly defied the Jєωιѕн menace and were going to pay dearly in the end, no matter who was running the show at that point. To the Jew, you are only an animal anyway and all the "goyim" must be annihilated sooner or later anway. The тαℓмυdists (jews) have only recourse and that is "is it good for jews?".And quite frankly, no sovereign nation or independent people are ever "good for jews". Our mere existence is an anathema to them.
The are similar to Islam with the exception that Islam expects the whole world to eventually submit to Allah, while the jew only accepts those part of his racial brethren. The rest of us are mere chattel or cannon fodder to be used at their whim.
They literally believe they're "gods" on earth.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: alaric on November 16, 2017, 05:03:51 PM
Great short presentation by Mr. Wise. As always, he nails it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqs09Xjj4q0
Meh, I'm not buying Hitler was fighting a "christian" war at the time. Yes, he understood the cultural and historical significance of the Faith in Europe and from what I've read and  he thought the pagan element in the NS party  were more a less a bunch of kooks, but loyal to the party. But in the end, this was about Germany and the German people more than a crusade for the Church or Christianity in general. Bottom line was that he pinned the problem was the international "Jєωιѕн" problem and dealt with it accordingly.
I think if he did fight this war more  as a Christian vs the "jew" he might  have been more successful in the end.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 16, 2017, 05:12:34 PM
That is an interesting point, although I don't believe it is an absolute statement;
The Law of Return (Hebrew (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language): חֹוק הַשְׁבוּת‎, ḥok ha-shvūt) is an Israeli law, passed on 5 July 1950, which gives Jews (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F) theright to come (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return) and live in Israel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) and to gain Israeli citizenship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_nationality_law).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return#cite_note-1) In 1970, the right of entry and settlement was extended to people with one Jєωιѕн grandparent and a person who is married to a Jew, whether or not he or she is considered Jєωιѕн (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zera_Yisrael) under Orthodox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Judaism) interpretations of Halakha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha).[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return#cite_note-jpost-2)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return



Do you have at least one Jєωιѕн grandparent?
All four of my grandparents were Jєωιѕн. However converts are an exception. It quotes the clause in the Wikipedia article:
The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law, 5712-1952***, as well as the rights of an oleh under any other enactment, are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, except for a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his/her religion.[ (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return#cite_note-4)4] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return#cite_note-4)
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: JPaul on November 16, 2017, 07:15:10 PM
Alaric,
Quote
I think if he did fight this war more  as a Christian vs the "jew" he might  have been more successful in the end.
The sad fact is that most Christian countries, those who had the most to lose from the Communist takeover of Europe and beyond, chose to side with the forces of anti-Christ, to their own detriment and to the wounding of the Church and the setting of the stage for the Jєωιѕн dominated future council.

And now, we are all victims of the storm. 
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Incredulous on November 16, 2017, 08:39:38 PM
Germany was targeted for total anihilation either way, they openly defied the Jєωιѕн menace and were going to pay dearly in the end, no matter who was running the show at that point. To the Jew, you are only an animal anyway and all the "goyim" must be annihilated sooner or later anway. The тαℓмυdists (jews) have only recourse and that is "is it good for jews?".And quite frankly, no sovereign nation or independent people are ever "good for jews". Our mere existence is an anathema to them.
The are similar to Islam with the exception that Islam expects the whole world to eventually submit to Allah, while the jew only accepts those part of his racial brethren. The rest of us are mere chattel or cannon fodder to be used at their whim.
They literally believe they're "gods" on earth.
Nice recap!
You have nailed the essence of the тαℓмυd.
They are the enemies of all men until the end of time, says St. Paul.


Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: alaric on November 18, 2017, 05:38:19 PM
All four of my grandparents were Jєωιѕн. However converts are an exception. It quotes the clause in the Wikipedia article:
The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law, 5712-1952***, as well as the rights of an oleh under any other enactment, are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, except for a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his/her religion.[ (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return#cite_note-4)4] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return#cite_note-4)
Quote
Therefore, a Jew who has voluntarily changed his/her religion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F#Jews_who_have_practiced_another_religion) is not considered a Jew, and is not eligible to immigrate under the law of return, but would have been persecuted as a Jew under the Nuremberg laws, and is still a Jew according to Halakha.
So let me get this straight.  You're not considered a 'jew' in Israel if you converted to Christianity but you're still considered a jew by the rabbis and nαzιs. Even if these same nαzιs want to kill you because you're a jew, Israel still won't let you in the front gate to save your life. 
Nice.
And all these bible-thumpers and born-again nutjobs still believe Israel is God's chosen people/country and want to support them unto death. ::)
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/60/76/1f/60761fee9c1d3a0f1609a163f080dcab.jpg)
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Jaynek on November 18, 2017, 05:46:44 PM
So let me get this straight.  You're not considered a 'jew' in Israel if you converted to Christianity but you're still considered a jew by the rabbis and nαzιs. Even if these same nαzιs want to kill you because you're a jew, Israel still won't let you in the front gate to save your life.
Nice.
And all these bible-thumpers and born-again nutjobs still believe Israel is God's chosen people/country and want to support them unto death. ::)

Yep.  That pretty much sums it up.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Marcelino on December 17, 2017, 01:15:09 AM
I think that Gottmituns (and the people who voted that Hitler was a great leader) have been mislead by the thought of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" to an inappropriate sympathy toward the Reich government.  In spite of its opposition to some enemies of the Church, it was itself also our enemy.

Pius XI makes it very clear in Mit brenennder Sorge that this regime oppressed Catholics and was our enemy.  Here is a similar account from Wikipedia:
Opposition to a regime such as this is understandable and justified.  The Catholic resistance in Germany, in some ways, resembles that of the Christiada in Mexico.  I'm wondering if those of you who see Colonel von Stauffenberg as a traitor would say the same of the Cristeros.  If not, in what way are the situations different?

Jaynek, 

I don't think the statement you made in this post, which I bolded, is accurate.  It seems as if most of the historians in the wikipedia article you cited actually disagree with your assessment of Mit Benennder Sorge.  

"...basically the Pope had condemned neopaganism and the denial of religious freedom – no less and no more"[85] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mit_brennender_Sorge#cite_note-85)"

"Catholic h0Ɩ0cαųst scholar Michael Phayer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Phayer) concludes that the encyclical "condemned racism (but not Hitler or National Socialism, as some have erroneously asserted)".[86] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mit_brennender_Sorge#cite_note-86)"

I remember reading some of Hitler's Table Talks.  My impression was that he was at times a Protestant, at times a Catholic, at times an Atheist/Pagan.  My conclusion was that he was a politician, trying to keep his country united.  I don't think Germany was Catholic anymore.  I think it had become Catholic, Protestant and Atheist-Pagan, much like America seems to be today.  

Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: poche on December 17, 2017, 01:24:36 AM
Jaynek,

I don't think the statement you made in this post, which I bolded, is accurate.  It seems as if most of the historians in the wikipedia article you cited actually disagree with your assessment of Mit Benennder Sorge.  

"...basically the Pope had condemned neopaganism and the denial of religious freedom – no less and no more"[85] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mit_brennender_Sorge#cite_note-85)"

"Catholic h0Ɩ0cαųst scholar Michael Phayer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Phayer) concludes that the encyclical "condemned racism (but not Hitler or National Socialism, as some have erroneously asserted)".[86] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mit_brennender_Sorge#cite_note-86)"

I remember reading some of Hitler's Table Talks.  My impression was that he was at times a Protestant, at times a Catholic, at times an Atheist/Pagan.  My conclusion was that he was a politician, trying to keep his country united.  I don't think Germany was Catholic anymore.  I think it had become Catholic, Protestant and Atheist-Pagan, much like America seems to be today.  
The Pope did more than condemn neo-paganism and the denial of religious freedom. He also condemned the whole notion of racism that was one of the foundations of the nαzι regime. He also condemned the abuse of the name of God that they used to justify their pagan ideology ; He said,
8. Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community - however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds.
 and again
9. Beware, Venerable Brethren, of that growing abuse, in speech as in writing, of the name of God as though it were a meaningless label, to be affixed to any creation, more or less arbitrary, of human speculation. Use your influence on the Faithful, that they refuse to yield to this aberration. Our God is the Personal God, supernatural, omnipotent, infinitely perfect, one in the Trinity of Persons, tri-personal in the unity of divine essence, the Creator of all existence. Lord, King and ultimate Consummator of the history of the world, who will not, and cannot, tolerate a rival God by His side.
http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html (http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html)
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Marcelino on December 17, 2017, 01:54:02 AM
The Pope did more than condemn neo-paganism and the denial of religious freedom. He also condemned the whole notion of racism that was one of the foundations of the nαzι regime. He also condemned the abuse of the name of God that they used to justify their pagan ideology ; He said,
8. Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community - however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things - whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds.
 and again
9. Beware, Venerable Brethren, of that growing abuse, in speech as in writing, of the name of God as though it were a meaningless label, to be affixed to any creation, more or less arbitrary, of human speculation. Use your influence on the Faithful, that they refuse to yield to this aberration. Our God is the Personal God, supernatural, omnipotent, infinitely perfect, one in the Trinity of Persons, tri-personal in the unity of divine essence, the Creator of all existence. Lord, King and ultimate Consummator of the history of the world, who will not, and cannot, tolerate a rival God by His side.
http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html (http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html)

Yeah, but it doesn't seem like The Pope considered Germany the enemy of the Catholic Church, from that docuмent, even though he was critical of their atheism-paganism.  I mean, many modern europeans and americans make a god out of the universe;  it seems like atheists-pagans in Germany made one out of their ethnic group.  You gotta fill the void with something.  It seems to me that religion is the most precious thing to a man, but to an atheist, well... something materialistic would have to take its place.  

As I understand it, since Germany was Nationalistic and not Internationalistic, their outlook was not so intensely at odds with The Natural Order, as International Socialism (communism) was.  So, they weren't as much of a threat to The Church, since The Church is charged with the defense of The Natural Order, since Christ "is" The Order.  
  
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: rum on December 17, 2017, 10:18:25 AM
Here, I'm rolling it out, with references:

Hitler was brought into the occult and mentored by jew.

Link (http://www.traditioninaction.org/History/G_006_nαzιGnostic05.html)
nαzιsm, a Gnostic-Manichean Sect - Part V

The Strange Personality of Adolf Hitler

Cunha Alvarenga

Much of this article makes use of the fraud Hermann Rauschning:
"Haenel was able to conclusively establish that Rausching's claim to have met with Hitler "more than a hundred times" is a lie. The two actually met only four times, and never alone. The words attributed to Hitler, he showed, were simply invented or lifted from many different sources, including writings by Juenger and Friedrich Nietzsche. An account of Hitler hearing voices, waking at night with convulsive shrieks and pointing in terror at an empty corner while shouting "There, there, in the corner!" was taken from a short story by French writer Guy de Maupassant."

source: https://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p499_Weber.html

Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: rum on December 17, 2017, 10:19:18 AM
Much of this article makes use of the fraud Hermann Rauschning:

"Haenel was able to conclusively establish that Rausching's claim to have met with Hitler "more than a hundred times" is a lie. The two actually met only four times, and never alone. The words attributed to Hitler, he showed, were simply invented or lifted from many different sources, including writings by Juenger and Friedrich Nietzsche. An account of Hitler hearing voices, waking at night with convulsive shrieks and pointing in terror at an empty corner while shouting "There, there, in the corner!" was taken from a short story by French writer Guy de Maupassant."

source: https://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p499_Weber.html
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: rum on December 17, 2017, 10:39:09 AM
Germany was targeted for total anihilation either way, they openly defied the Jєωιѕн menace and were going to pay dearly in the end, no matter who was running the show at that point. To the Jew, you are only an animal anyway and all the "goyim" must be annihilated sooner or later anway. The тαℓмυdists (jews) have only recourse and that is "is it good for jews?".And quite frankly, no sovereign nation or independent people are ever "good for jews". Our mere existence is an anathema to them.
The are similar to Islam with the exception that Islam expects the whole world to eventually submit to Allah, while the jew only accepts those part of his racial brethren. The rest of us are mere chattel or cannon fodder to be used at their whim.
They literally believe they're "gods" on earth.
They want us to exist, but in a position of total submission:

Quote
“Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world; only to serve the People of Israel,” he said during a public discussion of what kind of work non-Jews are allowed to perform on Shabbat.

"Why are gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap. We will sit like an effendi and eat," he said to some laughter.
https://www.jta.org/2010/10/18/news-opinion/israel-middle-east/sephardi-leader-yosef-non-jews-exist-to-serve-jews
This parasite had the largest funeral in Israeli history.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Incredulous on December 17, 2017, 04:32:03 PM
Much of this article makes use of the fraud Hermann Rauschning:
"Haenel was able to conclusively establish that Rausching's claim to have met with Hitler "more than a hundred times" is a lie. The two actually met only four times, and never alone. The words attributed to Hitler, he showed, were simply invented or lifted from many different sources, including writings by Juenger and Friedrich Nietzsche. An account of Hitler hearing voices, waking at night with convulsive shrieks and pointing in terror at an empty corner while shouting "There, there, in the corner!" was taken from a short story by French writer Guy de Maupassant."

source: https://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p499_Weber.html
I yield to this source correction.  Thanks for the post.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: rum on December 17, 2017, 08:38:06 PM
from Hitler's Revolution by Richard Tedor (https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-revolution-Richard-Tedor/dp/0988368226/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1513564279&sr=8-1&keywords=hitler%27s+revolution). I learned about this book from an interview with Germar Rudolf. The author depicts Stauffenberg and typical members of the German resistance as being motivated more by resentment against Hitler for, in their eyes, diminishing the status of the nobility of Germany than for lofty Christian principles. It's long, but it's a good read.

Quote
The “Good Germans”

So surreptitious was the German resistance movement, its ruinous influence may never have come to light but for a single incident. A bungled attempt to αssαssιnαtҽ Hitler on July 20, 1944, prompted an ongoing state investigation. This exposed the conspiracy to sabotage the German war effort. It led to the death by firing squad, ѕυιcιdє, or execution after trial of 160 plotters. The would-be assassin was Count Claus von Stauffenberg, chief of staff of the Reserve Army since July 1, 1944. There were approximately half a million soldiers, trained and fully equipped, awaiting transfer to the front. In charge of the Reserve Army was General Friedrich Fromm. To weaken the field formations, he contrived ways to delay the deployment of the ersatz troops under his administration. During the first month of fighting in Normandy for example, the Germans suffered 96,000 men killed, wounded or captured. Under Fromm’s direction, the western army received just 6,000 replacements and 17 new tanks.145 In July, battalions stationed in Holland for the purpose of replacing losses to infantry divisions fighting in Normandy were transferred to southern France instead.146

Stauffenberg represented Fromm at the Führer’s headquarters in Rastenburg during situation conferences. His job was to report on the progress of replenishing the combat divisions with reserve personnel. Stauffenberg understood his mission as the fabrication of plausible excuses for why only a fraction of the troops languishing in homeland garrisons were moving forward. An officer on Goebbels’s staff summarized the deceptive explanations Stauffenberg offered Hitler: “The air raids are responsible, he says. Then only the gas masks are lacking, next the NCOs still have some mandatory course, or a particular type of ammunition isn't available, or rather can't be delivered because of the destroyed transportation network, an arsenal suffered a direct hit where the rifle bolts for a whole regiment were stored. . . . Always at the last minute something gets in the way."147 Stauffenberg once told fellow plotters that their “allies” were Germany’s “military crises and defeats."148

Stauffenberg concealed in his brief case a time bomb, weapon of choice for terrorists worldwide, and smuggled it into the July 20 conference at Rastenburg. He prudently left the session before the explosion and boarded a courier plane for Berlin. The blast superficially injured Hitler but mortally wounded a stenographer and three officers. Several others among the 24 participants suffered injuries. Among those to die was Rudolf Schmundt; he had recently used his personal influence with the Führer to promote Stauffenberg’s lackluster career.149 Another victim was the staff officer Colonel Heinz Brandt, an opponent of National Socialism whom no one had forewarned of the day’s agenda.150

At the OKW offices on Bendler Street in Berlin, accomplices awaited news of Hitler’s demise to launch Wälkure, the coup to overthrow the National Socialist government. There among others were the pensioned General Ludwig Beck, ex-general Erich Hoepner, who had been dishonorably discharged from the army in 1942 for insubordination and cowardice, the retired Field Marshal Erwin von Witzleben, and General Friedrich Olbricht, who was Fromm’s subordinate (Based on the examination of captured German records, the U.S. State Department later established that Olbricht had leaked military secrets to the Red Orchestra via Gisevius).151 When Stauffenberg arrived, he told his colleagues that the
commander-in-chief did not survive the bombing. The plotters therefore set the revolt in motion. Back at Rastenburg, General Fellgiebel, who was privy to the planned assassination, did not contact the Berlin conspirators to warn them of its failure. Instead, he was among the first to congratulate Hitler on his narrow escape from death. Fellgiebel was able to briefly block communications between Rastenburg and the outside world, but could not indefinitely disrupt telephone service. Hitler reached Goebbels in the capital. He also spoke on the line with Major Ernst Remer, commander of the Berlin Watch Regiment. He ordered Remer to arrest the conspirators.

One reason for the coup’s rapid collapse was the lack of cooperation the usurpers received from the army. Signals personnel on the Bendler block monitored the Führer’s telephone conversation. Aware of the circuмstances, they did not transmit teletype orders formulated by the plotters to military units. Colonel Fritz Jäger, a member of Stauffenberg’s circle, visited several barracks to muster a company of riflemen to seize the radio station, the propaganda ministry, and to arrest Goebbels. He could not find a single soldier willing to carry out his orders.152 Stuipnagel and a handful of like-minded aristocrats supported the coup from their Paris headquarters. They managed to mobilize a battalion of German Security Regiment No. 1 to arrest members of the SD and the Gestapo, including the SS police
chief in Paris, Carl Oberg, in their office. Stulpnagel’s associates persuaded the battalion’s troops that the SD had rebelled against Hitler; only through this fiction did they gain the men’s cooperation. In Berlin, one of the teletype orders Witzleben drafted for the army falsely blamed “an unscrupulous clique of party leaders who are nowhere near the front” for the mutiny he himself helped instigate.153

According to an analysis by a contemporary German historian, “The plotters did not risk openly confessing that the coup was directed against Hitler, but argued instead to be acting supposedly in the name of the dead Führer against an 'unscrupulous clique.' They were themselves not certain in their own cause. They feared that most of the armed forces and the German people stood behind Hitler in their hearts and would therefore not obey them."154 Military members of the resistance movement had no connection with the rank-and-file of the armed forces. “They have nothing within them in common with the German soldier,” charged the Völkischer Beobachter on July 22. 155

Stauffenberg, for example, had never held a combat command. His army driver, Karl Schweizer, testified later that the count had maintained a generous supply of wine, champagne, schnapps, liqueurs and tobacco at both his Berlin residence and his duty office in the war ministry. Lieutenant Colonel Fritz von der Lancken had regularly procured these luxury items, unavailable to the front-line soldier or to the German public in the fifth year of war, for his fellow conspirator. Schweizer stated that he could scarcely remember a day when Stauffenberg did not consume alcohol.156  The count had also arranged for frequent deliveries to his address of smoked eel, oil sardines and other delicacies through administrative contacts with North Sea fisheries.157

The chief of the SD, Dr. Ernst Kaltenbrunner, prepared a series of confidential reports for the Reich’s Chancery analyzing the motives of the plotters. After the war, the former resistance member Friedrich Georgi judged the reports to be “absolutely sober and factual, if not of course one-sided."158 Regarding Stauffenberg, Kaltenbrunner concluded in his September 23, 1944 report that the count and his circle of aristocrats “pursued not only political objectives but social ones, namely to reinstate and maintain the privileged position of a select, socially-connected group of persons."159

Major Remer wrote of July 20, “The presumed death of Adolf Hitler left all the officers and also the troops in a state of shock. Never in my life, even after the collapse (in 1945), have I witnessed such profound sorrow." 160 In his post-war autobiography, Günther Adam, a veteran of the SS Hohenstaufen division which was deployed in France that July, included his own recollection: “That evening, after a day of combat, some young army officers come to us in our command post and tell us that there was an attempt on the life of the Führer that had failed. They said that senior army commanders had been involved. They ask in complete sincerity if they can join us, since they are too ashamed now to be officers of the army."161 In the opinion of Rolf Hinze, a veteran of the 19th Panzer Division, the assassination attempt came “at the most unfavorable time imaginable, at a time when unified, firm leadership was essential. The troops felt this way regardless of their diverse ideological viewpoints, even among those who inwardly rejected Hitler. Everywhere we heard the expression, ’stab in the back', and were relieved that the Führer’s central authority remained intact."162 The Führer’s adjutant, Colonel Nicolaus von Below, stated, “In as much as the senior generals had lost that unswerving confidence in Hitler, in the same measure the ordinary soldier trusted in his leadership. I have no doubt that only this fact held the front together."163

Right after the assassination attempt, signals personnel at Rastenburg discovered Fellgiebel’s secret telephone line to Switzerland that had served to communicate military intelligence to Soviet agents. The Gestapo questioned staff officers, some of whom were already on the watch list, making arrests when suspicion of subversive activity surfaced. Colonel Below told the Führer of word received from his cousin: Since the round-up began, his army corps on the eastern front was finally receiving supplies at consistent and timely intervals.164

Discovery of the sabotage “totally depressed” Hitler, Goebbels told an associate.165 The Führer’s personal security officer, Hans Rattenhuber, said this to Giesler: “The betrayal of the fighting front hit him harder than the attempt on his life. He just repeated to us that he has long reckoned with being shot at by someone in this reactionary clique. But something this underhanded he never would have expected from an officer, certainly not this shabby betrayal of the soldier who risks his life every day for Germany."166 In the past, Hitler had not acted on warnings from NSDAP subordinates about the general staff's disloyalty. A military liaison officer in the propaganda ministry, Colonel Hans Martin, recalled that Goebbels claimed to “possess a great amount of irrefutable evidence that a defeatist attitude among many officers of the OKW, especially in the OKH, is assuming serious proportions." 167 The Führer nonetheless shielded them from attacks by Goebbels and Himmler. The officers had sworn an oath of fealty to him, and “he firmly believed in their code of loyalty and honor,” wrote another Goebbels aid, Wilfred von Oven.168 Addressing the Rastenburg staff on July 24, Jodl told how whenever suspicions had surfaced about particular officers, Hitler had “laughed it off good-naturedly... as with the case of General Fellgiebel, who had already brought attention to himself through some of his remarks."169

The Führer expressed bitterness over the affair to his staff: “I took over the old officer corps just as it was, preserved its traditions, and respected them,” he said. “I advanced the officers' careers and their economic status whenever I could. I recognized their achievements and rewarded them. I promoted and decorated them. Each of them who reported to me I shook hands with as a comrade. And now every officer up to general who comes to me I have to have searched in a vestibule first, in case he’s bringing in some killing device like this Count Stauffenberg, who had nothing better to do than sneak a bomb under my conference table to rid the world of me and his own comrades."170 The German public reacted to news of the assassination attempt “with horror and loathing,” the former Gauleiter Rudolf Jordan recorded in his autobiography. “In the evening I addressed the population outdoors in the cathedral square in Magdeburg. The whole town took part in this demonstration of loyalty, with deep emotion. It seemed to me that in view of the fateful, life-or-death situation of the war, the people stood behind Adolf Hitler as one.” The Lutheran bishop of Hannover, who was personally unsympathetic to National Socialism, publicly condemned Stauffenberg’s “criminal scheme."171

At Carlshof hospital, Hitler visited officers who had been seriously injured in the July 20 bombing. He offered General Karl Bodenschatz an analysis of the murder plot: “I know that Stauffenberg, Goerdeler, and Witzleben thought through my death to rescue the German nation. . . . But these people really had no fixed plan of what to do next. They had no idea which army would support their coup, which military district would help them. First of all, they had not established contact with the enemy. I've even found out that the enemy refused their offer to negotiate."172 Hitler’s information was accurate. In April 1941, the Reich’s Foreign Office assigned Hans Buwert to manage France’s Hachette Publishing House. In late 1942 the Berlin police chief, Count Heinrich Helldorf, and a general staff officer, Count Heinrich Dohna-Tolksdorf, brought him into Stulpnagel’s circle. Buwert met with Allied representatives during a trip to Spain and Portugal. “Contact with the Allies turned out badly,” he wrote later.173 In the summer of 1940, the Churchill cabinet had adopted the policy of “absolute silence” toward the German resistance.174 Even before the war, the British Foreign Office had cautioned against such an alliance. In November 1938, Undersecretary Sargent had warned in a memo, “An open and capable military dictatorship could be even more dangerous than the NS regime."175 The subversives encountered another obstacle with respect to the United States. At the Casablanca conference in January 1943, Roosevelt publicly announced that the Allies will accept nothing less than the Reich’s unconditional surrender. What this portended for Germany, FDR’s private notes from December 1944 reveal: “Whatever measures may be taken against Japan and Germany, they must in any case include the reduction of their industrial output, to prevent them from competing on the world markets against the English, French, Dutch, Belgians, and other exporters, and against us as well.” U.S. General Albert Wedemeyer wrote, “The western Allies made not the slightest attempt to divide the Germans by promising the enemies of the Hitler regime acceptable peace terms."176 The Allies' attitude was no secret to members of the resistance movement. Count Ulrich Schwerin von Schwanefeld, a staff officer and determined advocate of Hitler’s murder, continued his intrigues even though acknowledging that FDR will not mollify surrender conditions.177 Just two days before Stauffenberg bombed Hitler’s situation conference, the conspirator Otto John returned from fruitless negotiations with Allied representatives in Madrid. He informed his fellow plotters than even were the Führer dead, unconditional surrender is still in force.178 He ultimately acknowledged that “the internal German resistance against Hitler was no longer a factor of significance for the political and military strategy of the western powers... in contrast to the resistance in France, which was nurtured by the western powers morally and with all kinds of materiel."179

The staff officer Tresckow, who described Hitler as “a mad dog that has to be put down,” also realized that the demise of his commander-in-chief would have no influence on the Allies' war effort.180 Dr. Eugen Gerstenmaier, a former conspirator and president of the West German parliament after the war, stated in a 1975 interview, “What we in the German resistance during the war didn't really want to see, we learned in full measure afterward; that this war was ultimately not waged against Hitler, but against Germany."181

Right after Stauffenberg’s botched assassination attempt, British radio stations for Europe broadcast the names of Germans known to the English to be conspiring against Hitler.182 This enabled the Gestapo to round up the subversives more quickly. A BBC editorial dismissed the coup as a product of Prussia’s military caste, the very stratum which the Anglo-Saxons are waging war to eradicate. The German people, the BBC continued, would be deceiving themselves to entrust their leadership to such people. Fritz Hesse, a specialist on English affairs in the German Foreign Office, monitored the Allied reaction and ventured, “Not much further and the English and American radios would have congratulated Hitler on his survival.” The Führer, shocked at the hostility manifest in some Allied news coverage, remarked to Ribbentrop, “These people hate Germany even more than they do me." 183

On July 25, John Wheeler-Bennett, a British historian assisting the Foreign Office in London, submitted a memorandum on the consequences of the recent events at Rastenburg: “It may now be said with some definiteness that we are better off with things as they are than if the plot of July 20 had succeeded and Hitler had been αssαssιnαtҽd. . . . The Gestapo and the SS have done us an appreciable service in removing a selection of those who would undoubtedly have posed as 'good' Germans after the war. . . . It is to our advantage therefore that the purge should continue, since the killing of Germans by Germans will save us from future embarrassment of many kinds."184 Churchill, Eden, and the Foreign Office staff accepted Wheeler-Bennett’s viewpoint.185 An in-house analysis prepared by the OSS also regarded Hitler’s escape as a blessing, explaining that it robbed the conspiring German generals of the opportunity to dump the blame for losing the war on him alone.186 One German general who clearly understood the Allies' outlook was Walter von Brauchitsch, commander of the army until December 1941. In April 1940, Halder had presented him with a written proposal to overthrow Hitler and reach a settlement with the West. Brauchitsch rebuked him with the words, “What’s going on here is pure treason. . . . In wartime this is unthinkable for a soldier. This battle isn't about governments
anyway, but a battle of diametrical ways of life. So getting rid of Hitler will serve no purpose." 187


A Contrast of Motives

In July 1944, the armed forces journal Offiziere des Führers (Officers of the Führer) published an essay by Walter Gross of the Racial Policy Office. It presented the usual argument that bloodlines contribute more to a person’s intrinsic characteristics and qualities of leadership than academics and material circuмstances. With respect to the military, Gross added this: “On the Führer’s orders, the officer’s career became open to every German man without consideration of social origin and education. Some expressed misgivings. They saw this as the intrusion of a radical socialist principle, and a danger to the accomplishments and bearing of the officer corps. Dozens of times I've encountered objections to this National Socialist innovation; objections from those who point to the lofty, inherent value of a leadership class cultivated over generations of selecting the best from soldiers' and officers' families.” Gross parried this protest with the observation that any traditional, exclusive system stifles the development of unexplored human resources within the nation: “Beyond such socially elevated families, there also rests within a people thousands upon thousands of individuals of comparable aptitude, submerged in the broad masses. They possess the same value to the community and are capable of accomplishing just as much in a particular field as the best of the old, cultivated families. . . .Wherever people with similar and equally precious qualities lie undiscovered, then it is possible and indeed necessary to find them, and place them in communal life. With the right training, they can achieve the utmost they're capable of. . . . The standard for determining whether the inherent prerequisites are present or are lacking, is one and the same for both groups; it lies exclusively in accomplishing the task at hand."188

When Hitler reinstated national defense before the war, the men occupying positions of command had entered service during the time of the old army. Many senior officers displayed little imagination or adaptability to warfare’s innovations such as armor, aviation, and elastic defense. Their shortcomings became especially apparent in the campaign against Soviet Russia. Some generals lacked the boldness, initiative, and raw nerve to outthink, outmaneuver, and outfight such an imposing military goliath and were dismissed. Replacing them were often men from ordinary backgrounds. Hitler himself stated in January 1944, “More than 60 percent of the new officer corps rose through the ranks, creating a bridge to the hundreds of thousands of workers, farmers and members of the lesser middle class."189

Though deprived of imperial privilege, the scions of Germany’s distinguished families retained their ancestral honors, and found the same path of opportunity open to them as to all of their countrymen. Most men of their younger generation dutifully entered frontline service during World War II, doing credit to their traditional standing. The inveterate conservatives and reactionaries among the aristocracy gravitated to the diplomatic corps and to the general staff, where they could inflict maximum damage to the German cause at minimal risk. Solitary and aloof, the resistance movement allied itself with the only group capable of destroying the social revolution that had transformed Germany: the enemy. To topple a form of government, the subversives accepted the enemy’s war aims, with all the consequences for their own country.


Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: poche on December 17, 2017, 11:14:41 PM
Yeah, but it doesn't seem like The Pope considered Germany the enemy of the Catholic Church, from that docuмent, even though he was critical of their atheism-paganism.  I mean, many modern europeans and americans make a god out of the universe;  it seems like atheists-pagans in Germany made one out of their ethnic group.  You gotta fill the void with something.  It seems to me that religion is the most precious thing to a man, but to an atheist, well... something materialistic would have to take its place.  

As I understand it, since Germany was Nationalistic and not Internationalistic, their outlook was not so intensely at odds with The Natural Order, as International Socialism (communism) was.  So, they weren't as much of a threat to The Church, since The Church is charged with the defense of The Natural Order, since Christ "is" The Order.  
  
When the Pope speaks he doesn't speak to just one group or people. He speaks to all of us. The truths contained in Mit Brennender Sorge are as true today as they were when he first wrote it. 
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on December 18, 2017, 02:55:35 PM
  The truths contained in Mit Brennender Sorge are as true today as they were when he first wrote it.
In your opinion. He was in league with enemies of the Church, namely Freemasons. 
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: poche on December 18, 2017, 11:23:06 PM
In your opinion. He was in league with enemies of the Church, namely Freemasons.
Who?
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Incredulous on December 19, 2017, 11:36:57 AM
When the Pope speaks he doesn't speak to just one group or people. He speaks to all of us. The truths contained in Mit Brennender Sorge are as true today as they were when he first wrote it.

But what about when the Pope doesn't speak?

For example, about "Uncle Joe" Stalin as the cryto-jews, FDR and Churchill dubbed him.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSP_cJMffvu2Fhdcez8msqyQnFSGyfdsC1wmnZqD-bquARNqGgR)
When the pope doesn't speak-out about the advance of тαℓмυdic-communism,

Or speak-out against the (40 million) mass murders and Gulag death camps?

He was silent to the world, and especially the faithful, who needed to know that, communism is:
anti-God, anti-Family and anti-Property.

And right after his papacy, Rome's policy of Silence in Vatican II became the rule.



Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Marcelino on December 19, 2017, 09:04:21 PM
But what about when the Pope doesn't speak?

For example, about "Uncle Joe" Stalin as the cryto-jews, FDR and Churchill dubbed him.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSP_cJMffvu2Fhdcez8msqyQnFSGyfdsC1wmnZqD-bquARNqGgR)
When the pope doesn't speak-out about the advance of тαℓмυdic-communism,

Or speak-out against the (40 million) mass murders and Gulag death camps?

He was silent to the world, and especially the faithful, who needed to know that, communism is:
anti-God, anti-Family and anti-Property.

And right after his papacy, Rome's policy of Silence in Vatican II became the rule.

"Divini Redemptoris (Latin for Of the Divine Redeemer) is an anti-communist encyclical issued by Pope Pius XI. It was published on 19 March 1937. In this encyclical, the pope sets out to "expose once more in a brief synthesis the principles of atheistic Communism as they are manifested chiefly in bolshevism"."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divini_Redemptoris

"The encyclical describes communism as "a system full of errors and sophisms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophistry)" that "subverts the social order, because it means the destruction of its foundations" as well as removing women from their rightful place in the home.


The work expresses concern at the growth of Communism in the Soviet Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union), Spain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Spanish_Republic), and Mexico (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico), and it condemns the Western (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_world) press for its apparent "conspiracy of silence" in failing to cover such events in those countries.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divini_Redemptoris#cite_note-3)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divini_Redemptoris
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Marcelino on December 19, 2017, 10:19:08 PM
When the Pope speaks he doesn't speak to just one group or people. He speaks to all of us. The truths contained in Mit Brennender Sorge are as true today as they were when he first wrote it.

Good point!  
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Marcelino on December 19, 2017, 10:35:50 PM
from Hitler's Revolution by Richard Tedor (https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-revolution-Richard-Tedor/dp/0988368226/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1513564279&sr=8-1&keywords=hitler%27s+revolution). I learned about this book from an interview with Germar Rudolf. The author depicts Stauffenberg and typical members of the German resistance as being motivated more by resentment against Hitler for, in their eyes, diminishing the status of the nobility of Germany than for lofty Christian principles. It's long, but it's a good read.

That was interesting and surprising.  I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but I never heard of that before.  
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: poche on December 23, 2017, 09:45:36 PM
But what about when the Pope doesn't speak?

For example, about "Uncle Joe" Stalin as the cryto-jews, FDR and Churchill dubbed him.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSP_cJMffvu2Fhdcez8msqyQnFSGyfdsC1wmnZqD-bquARNqGgR)
When the pope doesn't speak-out about the advance of тαℓмυdic-communism,

Or speak-out against the (40 million) mass murders and Gulag death camps?

He was silent to the world, and especially the faithful, who needed to know that, communism is:
anti-God, anti-Family and anti-Property.

And right after his papacy, Rome's policy of Silence in Vatican II became the rule.
The Holy Father doesn't have to speak on everything. Some peoples malevolence speaks for themselves.  
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on December 26, 2017, 01:37:08 PM
The Holy Father doesn't have to speak on everything. Some peoples malevolence speaks for themselves.  
Like the post VII church itself. Or the Allies that the Church aligned itself with. There was no malice on anything of the NSDAP that you can cite as I've asked in the past, just whining about political subversives that we're imprisoned who happened to be Catholic. 
You're right about him not having to speak on everything. His competence in most matters is irrelevant. Especially on this subject. 
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Incredulous on December 26, 2017, 03:29:07 PM
The Holy Father doesn't have to speak on everything. Some peoples malevolence speaks for themselves.  
I don't so much agree.

Pope Pius XII was quite involved in having the Vatican's energies directed at making-up fake passports for the jews.

His intelligence network was formidable.

He knew who "Uncle Joe" really was and communism's threat to the Church.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: LeDeg on December 26, 2017, 04:11:08 PM
 
He knew who "Uncle Joe" really was and communism's threat to the Church.
Damn right he did.
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: poche on December 26, 2017, 11:47:46 PM
Damn right he did.
Where is this 'Uncle Joe' today?
Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: Incredulous on December 27, 2017, 08:47:06 AM
Where is this 'Uncle Joe' today?
Merry Christmas Poche.

An "eternal rest grant unto Uncle Joe" may not be appropriate?

Stalin is reported to have been bludgeoned to death while going to his bank vault bedroom, by ʝʊdɛօ-masonic spies within his government.  He was highly suspicious of them and about to order a purge of Russian jewery.  

(https://fthmb.tqn.com/PwT6e5kJe1a-0O6v6PvRJrD0h1s=/2964x2149/filters:fill(auto,1)/stalindead-56a48c3e3df78cf77282eed2.jpg)
He hated the Catholic Church, so it's very doubtful he had "baptism of desire" and is likely in Hell.


FDR's death was not by a stroke. Initial reports are that he died by a self-inflicted gunshot to the head.  

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/84/16/bf/8416bfd9a2102a156191a216392ecdbd.png)

Although this news was quickly silenced, likely because the bullet forensics may have shown it was not his hand that pulled the trigger.  He had a closed casket funeral, was ant-Catholic and do to the circuмstances of his death, unlikely he got "Baptism of desire" too.  He is likely in Hell too.

Title: Re: Was Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg a German traitor or Catholic hero ?
Post by: poche on December 28, 2017, 03:58:04 AM
When Father Clemens August von Galen was consecrated Bishop of Münster in October 1933, he chose for his episcopal motto Nec laudibus, nec timore – 'neither by praises nor by fear,' which summed up his ministry throughout Germany's nαzι period.
The motto was taken from the liturgy for episcopal consecration, which prays that the new bishop will love humility and truth, and not be overcome by either praise or fear.
Bishop von Galen wrote in his first pastoral letter that “Neither the praises of men nor fear of men shall move us. Rather, our glory will be to promote the praise of God, and our steadfast effort will be to walk always in a holy fear of God.”
During his entire episcopacy the bishop spoke up against the nαzιs' euthanasia program and racial theories, and defended human rights and the cause of justice. He was among the most outspoken of Germany's bishops during that era, and assisted the writing of Pius XI's 1937 anti-nαzι encyclical Mit bren (http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html)
He was made a cardinal in February 1946, just one month before his March 22 death, and he was beatified in 2005 by Benedict XVI (https://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2005/october/docuмents/hf_ben_xvi_spe_20051009_beatif-von-galen.html).
Blessed von Galen's motto “would be a great motto to have for a bishop,” Fr. Daniel Utrecht of the Toronto Oratory told CNA. Fr. Utrecht is the author of The Lion of Münster: The Bishop Who Roared Against the nαzιs (https://www.amazon.com/Lion-M%C3%BCnster-Bishop-Roared-Against/dp/1618907646/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1490133300&sr=8-1&keywords=the+lion+of+munster).
Fr. Utrecht was drawn to write about Blessed von Galen because he was a model bishop.
“I was telling some people about him during World Youth Day in 2005, and they said, 'We need bishops like this, why have we never heard of this guy? Someone should write a book about him',” he related.
The priest recalled reading in German a two volume work of Blessed von Galen's docuмents, letters, and sermons written as a bishop. “They became more and more fascinating, and there just wasn't much in English to read about him. I eventually came to the conclusion that it was up to me to write an English-language biography.”
Blessed von Galen was born into a German noble family in 1878, and was ordained a priest of the Diocese of Münster in 1904. As a priest he wrote on the origins and limits of state power, and the importance of voting as a responsibility for the common good rather than doing so for private interests.
In the later years of the Weimar Republic, Blessed von Galen supported the German Centre Party, which worked to present a Christian voice in defense of Catholic interests and human rights in the public square, and entered into coalition governments with other parties in an effort to balance power.
But the priest was unable to sway many of his acquaintances to support the Centre Party – other Catholics were arguing that the nαzι Party was most compatible with Catholic ideals.
Many bishops had barred Catholics from being members of the National Socialist movement. But when Hitler softened his antireligious stance and stated early in 1933 that Christianity would be prominent in Germany's rule, the bishops took him at his word and began allowing Catholics to join the movement.
But when Blessed von Galen was made a bishop later that year, he maintained his anti-nαzι beliefs. Within a year he clashed with government officials over the rights of Catholic schools and the nαzιs' racial and anti-Jєωιѕн ideology.
He was most outspoken against the nαzι's involuntary euthanasia program, which under which the disabled, mentally ill, deformed, senile, those with Down syndrome, and the incurably sick were killed. The program began in 1939, and more than 70,000 people were euthanized under it.
Blessed von Galen led Catholic protest against euthanasia. He delivered three sermons in the summer of 1941 which condemned the program, as well as nαzι attacks on the Church, and raised public awareness of what has happening. After the sermons' delivery he was nicknamed “The Lion of Münster”, and they resulted in a nαzι propaganda minister, Walter Tiessler, recommending that he be executed.
The bishop remained outspoken against nαzι atrocities throughout World War II, and afterwards spoke up against injustices committed by the occupying Allied forces.
“I see plenty of parallels today,” Fr. Utrecht told CNA. “I hope that people reading the book get it for themselves.” Blessed von Galen's “example of courage and being able to speak out in defense of human life is of interest, very much of interest today, in the fight against abortion and euthanasia …  the defense of liberty, religious liberty, the defense of a place for religion in the public square is a very, very big lesson that he has for us.”
In addition to supporting Catholic witness to the value of human life in the face of abortion, euthanasia, assisted ѕυιcιdє, and the dictatorship of relativism, Fr. Utrecht said that the cardinal can speak to Catholics facing political dictatorships as well.
The priest shared how during a recent trip to Germany he met a priest from Africa who is “very keen on making von Galen known to the Africans, because he said 'In many places we have totalitarian governments and not enough of the bishops speak out', – so he thought there was a great parallel there.”
Since Cardinal von Galen was beatified 12 years ago, there is a need to develop devotion to him, Fr. Utrecht reflected. “Greater devotion to him is the next step, not just locally, but worldwide.”
“There are plenty of people who do know about him and who are pushing devotion to him, but it needs kind of a new push, so I hope we can get a push, and not only there, but among English- reading people elsewhere.”

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/what-the-bishop-who-resisted-the-nαzιs-can-teach-us-today-99082

Blessed Cardinal Von Galen, another bishop of the resistance.