Quote from: Ladislaus

Evangelization in this climate is nearly impossible ... barring the grace of God alone.

Why?

"You're not Catholic?  Well, what distinguishes Catholicism from the Protestants is the Catholic Magisterium and the papacy. [apologetics establishing why this is important] ... But, oh, by the way, you must ignore the Magisterium and the pope, refuse submission to him, and become a TRADITIONAL Catholic."

Good luck with that.  Our apologetics is undermined from the getgo.

This, this, this. I am a former Protestant and have many Protestant friends whom I try to evangelize, I also try to reach Protestants through the internet. The current post-Conciliar mess is the biggest obstacle in evangelization - even though I am very closely interested in Catholic apologetics and I am fairly confident about my knowledge how to present the Biblical and historical evidence for the Eucharist, Marian dogmas, Papacy, Catholic doctrine of justification, Purgatory etc., the topic of current liberalism in the Church usually comes up in the conversations sooner or later. There are knowledgeable Protestants who realize what is going on in Vatican right now, and who are aware at least of the abomination of Assisi meetings, kissing of the Quran by John Paul II and religious indifferentism which the Conciliar Church embraces. As you say, explaining that they need to submit to the Papacy but ignore the current Magisterium and become Traditionalists is extremely hard. We need to pray for conversions more than ever.  

I also know Protestants who see things more clearly than the majority of novus ordo Catholics.  They also know what the Church always taught more than novus ordo Catholics.  And they definitely know that Francis isn't good.  One calls him "the Vicar of Marx."

Laramie, I evangelize.  I've told you this before.   But, as hopefully you know, evangelizing is not a matter of this:
 
It's more a matter of looking for more subtle opportunities to invite.  Ultimately, God does the work, if the conversion and the movements toward conversion are genuine.  God's grace is far beyond my ability to explain to N.O.'ers rationally why Tradition and Catholicism are inseparable and interdependent.  When they see a real Mass, the way it's supposed to be done, they generally see the stark differences between the two liturgies and understand that they have been living in a different "world."

Many N.O.'ers have been brainwashed by the 'Net, by forums like CAF, by bloggers like the recent ex-Proddies who "converted" but cling to the Protestantism rampant in the Conciliar Sect and are merely PR men for Conciliarism.  That brainwashing says that anything that doesn't look new (literally) and modern, is, strictly speaking, "not Catholic."  They lie and tell N.O.'ers that trads are "radicals" and schismatics.  Therefore, getting non-trads even to be open (not hostile, not suspicious) of traditional liturgies, congregations, societies, institutes, and spirituality is a risky endeavor.

I do evangelize, but most often I have to do it semi-secretly (not in the hearing of convicted N.O.'ers who are eager to engage in the above brainwashing).

I definitely agree that there is a severe lack of evangelization among Traditional Catholics.  I hold up this fact every time I mention SD and FE, pointing to their fears for online confrontations with atheists.  

I disagree with the parallel you are making, along with your characterization of it as "fear."

Atheists, of the kind you have dealt with in forums, are hardened and on a mission to obliterate.  That's not the same situation we're dealing with among N.O.'ers.  The latter (the laity among them) are more lost and leaderless than on a mission to obliterate -- even though the N.O. Front Men (Francis' back-up PR brigade -- George Weigel, "Cardinal" Wuerl, "Cardinal" Dolan, Conciliar bloggers and forum owners, etc.) are aggressive in their efforts to silence and diminish traditionalism.

Also, what you and the Msgr. are doing is failing to see distinctions in roles and power.  Many Conciliar priests-turned-trad are evangelizing other priests.  For example, this has been happening among Dominicans, and it has produced a groundswell of demand for the Latin Mass in certain geographical pockets -- a demand which has overcome the supply in those areas.

The Msgr. doesn't get out enough.  He half admits that in his article.

And of course, how could I forget "environmentalism"?

Notice the emphasis on The World.  

And of course, how could I forget "environmentalism"?

Notice the emphasis on The World.  

If everyone is going to Heaven and Hell is empty, what else is there for them to do but to hug a tree?

I think too that trads remind the NO folks that there was a Church before Vll, and that there are still Catholics who believe in it. It causes confusion, maybe, and they want to be comfy with the way the Church is now. They don't like to be reminded of things that don't fit with what they want to believe.

But it's not just cognitive dissonance, although I agree that that's part of it.  It's also a matter of "feeling left out."  NewChurch is superficially conformist, and therefore Tradition is socially threatening.  Some of it (more than most trads realize, i.m.o.) is Envy.  So if you work really hard internally to deny that Tradition -- one of the essential pillars of Catholicism -- has any validity in the modern era, you can on some level "convince" yourself that you have not actually been not just left out but robbed -- a fact which should make a practicing Catholic enraged.

But still, there are NO Caths who want to be faithful Catholics. Maybe not a lot, but a few. They're the ones, IMO, who may be interested in the Mass of All Time, and the traditional devotions.

That's also whom I exclusively seek out.  No point in pursuing the Happy-Clappy crowd who applaud for the musicians at the end of every N.O. Mass.  For example, if I have the misfortune to be in an N.O. Church (say, for private prayer outside of Mass), I will notice someone who genuflects on both knees before the monstrance during Adoration hours.  If I strategically position my timing so as to greet her (usually her) outside the church, I might mention being impressed or touched by her devotion and her knowledge of rubrics, and hope to get into a conversation about which rubrically authentic Mass I attend and how I'd love to invite her at her convenience.

I finally tried to read the comments for this Monsignor Pope article.  I say "tried to read" because I no longer have much patience and tolerance left for a certain type of Catholic.  It's the same old tripe one would encounter on CAF.

The only thing I find myself wondering lately in my old age on a daily basis is whether anyone owns a mirror anymore.   :rolleyes:  I have news for Mr. "Voice".  I didn't find any "love of Christ" in the novus ordo pews either.  What I did find were the most ruthless and cold individuals I have ever encountered anywhere.

Quote from: MMagdala

Laramie, I evangelize.  I've told you this before.   But, as hopefully you know, evangelizing is not a matter of this:
 
It's more a matter of looking for more subtle opportunities to invite.  Ultimately, God does the work, if the conversion and the movements toward conversion are genuine.  God's grace is far beyond my ability to explain to N.O.'ers rationally why Tradition and Catholicism are inseparable and interdependent.  When they see a real Mass, the way it's supposed to be done, they generally see the stark differences between the two liturgies and understand that they have been living in a different "world."

Many N.O.'ers have been brainwashed by the 'Net, by forums like CAF, by bloggers like the recent ex-Proddies who "converted" but cling to the Protestantism rampant in the Conciliar Sect and are merely PR men for Conciliarism.  That brainwashing says that anything that doesn't look new (literally) and modern, is, strictly speaking, "not Catholic."  They lie and tell N.O.'ers that trads are "radicals" and schismatics.  Therefore, getting non-trads even to be open (not hostile, not suspicious) of traditional liturgies, congregations, societies, institutes, and spirituality is a risky endeavor.

I do evangelize, but most often I have to do it semi-secretly (not in the hearing of convicted N.O.'ers who are eager to engage in the above brainwashing).

I almost posted what you did but decided against it.

You are correct - thanks to a forum like CAF, novus ordo Catholics have been conditioned to despise traditionals.  Most of them don't even know why they do, other than they just do.

Plus, most of them seem to love Francis and are very happy in their cotton candy universe of feelings and emotions and "being positive."  They were brought up to care more about recycling than their souls.   Their Catholic world is one huge gray question mark.  Nothing is definitive.  All is subjective.  There is no "right or wrong."  

Quote from: LaramieHirsch

I definitely agree that there is a severe lack of evangelization among Traditional Catholics.  I hold up this fact every time I mention SD and FE, pointing to their fears for online confrontations with atheists.  

I disagree with the parallel you are making, along with your characterization of it as "fear."

Atheists, of the kind you have dealt with in forums, are hardened and on a mission to obliterate.  That's not the same situation we're dealing with among N.O.'ers.  The latter (the laity among them) are more lost and leaderless than on a mission to obliterate -- even though the N.O. Front Men (Francis' back-up PR brigade -- George Weigel, "Cardinal" Wuerl, "Cardinal" Dolan, Conciliar bloggers and forum owners, etc.) are aggressive in their efforts to silence and diminish traditionalism.

Also, what you and the Msgr. are doing is failing to see distinctions in roles and power.  Many Conciliar priests-turned-trad are evangelizing other priests.  For example, this has been happening among Dominicans, and it has produced a groundswell of demand for the Latin Mass in certain geographical pockets -- a demand which has overcome the supply in those areas.

The Msgr. doesn't get out enough.  He half admits that in his article.

Hmm.  Good points, all.  Makes me do a double take.  

I think Mark Shea is not a very good voice in the Catholic realm.  Most of us agree with this.  However, I will stick up for Trent Horn, for now.  


Yes, what is the point of getting these people into the Church, when they want to remain in Novus Ordo Land and not continue the journey of the Faith?  What good is it to get people into the Church, but the people still remain pseudo-Protestant, still holding onto their worldly eccentricities?

I agree, then, that the journey of our Faith (though it's actually unending in this life) sort of climaxes and "completes" at Traditional Catholicism.  I suppose Traditional Catholicism is the final aim when it comes to converting people.  

So, I've got this question.  What about converting people step-by-step?  Incrementally?  What if Traditional Catholicism is too much to swallow at first?  Is incremental conversion a legitimate tactic in your opinion?  If so, I suppose that's the role that CAF would be able to play in people's conversion.  

Msgr. Pope's bias is clear.  I said that in the OP.  It's clear he wants the Church modernized into something horrid.