Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: LaramieHirsch on January 07, 2016, 11:12:26 PM
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I definitely agree that there is a severe lack of evangelization among Traditional Catholics. I hold up this fact every time I mention SD and FE, pointing to their fears for online confrontations with atheists.
Which is why I feel vindicated when something like this comes along.
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/msgr-pope/an-urgent-warning-about-the-future-of-the-traditional-latin-mass
It's a sad vindication however.
But as the availability of the Traditional Latin Mass has increased, it seems that a certain ceiling has been reached.
Later, Msgr. Pope states what is obvious to me:
Even traditional Catholics have to evangelize.
Towards the end, he says something I heartily agree with:
Evangelize or else close and die. It’s a hard fact, but numbers matter. Too many in the Church today demand respect and support without showing the fruits that earn respect and that make support prudent and reasonable.
But before that, he utters something I heartily DISAGREE with:
The honest truth is that an ancient liturgy, spoken in an ancient language and largely whispered, is not something that most moderns immediately appreciate. It is the same with many of the truths of our faith, which call for sacrifice, dying to self, and rejecting the immediate pleasures of sin for the eternal glories of Heaven. We must often make the case to a skeptical and unrefined world.
I actually think that CAF and the Shea brand has reached out to non-Catholics quite substantially, which is not something for Traditionalists to be proud of. Has anyone here even heard of Trent Horn?
That's my observation.
So, with that...what do we do, kiddies? Discuss.
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The article seemed primarily concerned with building numbers at the TLM without concern about the source, whereas your post is focused more on converting non-Catholics.
The reality is that most new TLM attendees are already (or once were) Catholic. Certainly there are exceptions, but I think most Trads are inclined to focus their efforts on N.O. Catholics. Reaching out to the world at large is great too, but don't discredit the work of those educating fellow Catholics who have been led astray by the Novus Ordo.
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I actually think that CAF and the Shea brand has reached out to non-Catholics quite substantially, which is not something for Traditionalists to be proud of. Has anyone here even heard of Trent Horn?
That's my observation.
Who is Trent Horn?
.
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The article seemed primarily concerned with building numbers at the TLM without concern about the source, whereas your post is focused more on converting non-Catholics.
The reality is that most new TLM attendees are already (or once were) Catholic. Certainly there are exceptions, but I think most Trads are inclined to focus their efforts on N.O. Catholics. Reaching out to the world at large is great too, but don't discredit the work of those educating fellow Catholics who have been led astray by the Novus Ordo.
True. The priest does seem focused on numbers, as you make me think about this.
And yes, Trads do seem focused on evangelizing the people who already have a modicuм of knowledge of the Faith.
I wonder, how would we evangelize people who are entirely non-Catholic?
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Who is Trent Horn?
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He debates atheists. It's what he does. He writes for Catholic Answers a lot. I actually enjoy a lot of what he says, though I differ on a few points here and there.
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I don't disagree that we should evangelize. But the article is a self-serving conciliarist propaganda ploy setting them up to say, "Well--we gave the TLM a shot. But the demand just wasn't there," as they proceed put tradition back in the broom closet. Getting the numbers to prevent that is as realistic as the school he referenced raising another $1M. What a disgrace that the true Mass is relegated to a numbers/popularity game.
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I DO NOT have the esteemed editor of the HirschieFiles on ignore--life is too short to pass up such amusement.
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Evangelization in this climate is nearly impossible ... barring the grace of God alone.
Why?
"You're not Catholic? Well, what distinguishes Catholicism from the Protestants is the Catholic Magisterium and the papacy. [apologetics establishing why this is important] ... But, oh, by the way, you must ignore the Magisterium and the pope, refuse submission to him, and become a TRADITIONAL Catholic."
Good luck with that. Our apologetics is undermined from the getgo.
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Evangelization in this climate is nearly impossible ... barring the grace of God alone.
Why?
"You're not Catholic? Well, what distinguishes Catholicism from the Protestants is the Catholic Magisterium and the papacy. [apologetics establishing why this is important] ... But, oh, by the way, you must ignore the Magisterium and the pope, refuse submission to him, and become a TRADITIONAL Catholic."
Good luck with that. Our apologetics is undermined from the getgo.
This is very true. The papacy is what kept me Catholic in my youth as I began to unwind the farce of conciliardom and was, in fact, the centerpoint of many evangelization discussions I've had with prots over the years. It's hard enough sorting through the chaos of this crisis as one from hundreds of years of Catholic ancestry. Imagine explaining it to a prot and making it make sense to him.
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I DO NOT have the esteemed editor of the HirschieFiles on ignore--life is too short to pass up such amusement.
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I think it was irresponsible that the diocese didn't have insurance on the Church. What would they have done if people died in the fire.
In the past, Catholic schools were free. Then they allowed Non Catholics to attend and Catholic school turned into for the elite.
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Evangelization in this climate is nearly impossible ... barring the grace of God alone.
Why?
"You're not Catholic? Well, what distinguishes Catholicism from the Protestants is the Catholic Magisterium and the papacy. [apologetics establishing why this is important] ... But, oh, by the way, you must ignore the Magisterium and the pope, refuse submission to him, and become a TRADITIONAL Catholic."
Good luck with that. Our apologetics is undermined from the getgo.
This, this, this. I am a former Protestant and have many Protestant friends whom I try to evangelize, I also try to reach Protestants through the internet. The current post-Conciliar mess is the biggest obstacle in evangelization - even though I am very closely interested in Catholic apologetics and I am fairly confident about my knowledge how to present the Biblical and historical evidence for the Eucharist, Marian dogmas, Papacy, Catholic doctrine of justification, Purgatory etc., the topic of current liberalism in the Church usually comes up in the conversations sooner or later. There are knowledgeable Protestants who realize what is going on in Vatican right now, and who are aware at least of the abomination of Assisi meetings, kissing of the Quran by John Paul II and religious indifferentism which the Conciliar Church embraces. As you say, explaining that they need to submit to the Papacy but ignore the current Magisterium and become Traditionalists is extremely hard. We need to pray for conversions more than ever.
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Evangelization in this climate is nearly impossible ... barring the grace of God alone.
Why?
"You're not Catholic? Well, what distinguishes Catholicism from the Protestants is the Catholic Magisterium and the papacy. [apologetics establishing why this is important] ... But, oh, by the way, you must ignore the Magisterium and the pope, refuse submission to him, and become a TRADITIONAL Catholic."
Good luck with that. Our apologetics is undermined from the getgo.
This is the issue.
Evangelisation comes from the pope. The pope is the head of the bishops and the bishops are the apostles, those mainly responsible for evangelisation. If our bishops are against the Traditional Mass that cripples evangelisation massively. Before atheists and liberals and protestants are converted, our bishops needs to be converted.
Without support from their bishops the Catholic laymen are woefully stranded.
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CAF promotes religious indifferentism due to error having equal rights to that of truth. But that's how it has to be, I think, with the format of allowing non-Catholics to have their own religious beliefs which are to be respected on the forum. The progressive Catholics get to have an equal say, too. Everyone's subjective views are to be treated with charity, even if they are very wrong. I received an infraction for writing a post that said...."Either a Catholic is with Jesus, or with Cardinal Kasper. There is no in-between." (regarding the recent synod).
I don't think that CAF or Mark Shea show an accurate picture of Catholicism. Those who convert through their efforts aren't being given a true picture of the Catholic faith. On the other hand, I have to wonder about how many non-Catholics these days are interested in the true Catholic faith....the one where we have to believe in everything that the Church teaches, because it's not an easy faith to believe or to live in a secular culture.
However, I do see new people attend the FSSP Mass, and I'm too shy to reach out to them before going into Mass. And no one else does either. I do care about the Novus Ordo Caths who make their way to the TLM, but if we don't show that we care by at least saying hello and welcoming them, they may only attend a few times, and then not come back.
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Evangelization in this climate is nearly impossible ... barring the grace of God alone.
Why?
"You're not Catholic? Well, what distinguishes Catholicism from the Protestants is the Catholic Magisterium and the papacy. [apologetics establishing why this is important] ... But, oh, by the way, you must ignore the Magisterium and the pope, refuse submission to him, and become a TRADITIONAL Catholic."
Good luck with that. Our apologetics is undermined from the getgo.
All the comments after this posting (and before mine) are spot on in every detail.
A old Franciscan post Vatican II trad priest, ordained in the late 40's, when I asked him why he didn't advertise the mass, said that he did for a long time. He said however that every time someone new came, he would ask them how they found him and not a one said because of his ad. He said that God sends them. I think that is what Ladislaus is saying by "barring the grace of God alone".
Here is my addition to the discussion:
I've seen and known very many male traditionalist who are always evangelizing, and speaking to others about the faith, and yet their children are not "being evangelized" to. They are blind to their own offspring, really the only persons we as parents are responsible for. How many people here on Cathinfo spend all day writing here while their children are not being talked to about life and the world they are having to deal with every day. THAT is where your evangelizing is really needed. The way things are going today, I don't see the children of traditionalist as the future of "traditionalism", real lived Catholicism.
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Evangelization in this climate is nearly impossible ... barring the grace of God alone.
Why?
"You're not Catholic? Well, what distinguishes Catholicism from the Protestants is the Catholic Magisterium and the papacy. [apologetics establishing why this is important] ... But, oh, by the way, you must ignore the Magisterium and the pope, refuse submission to him, and become a TRADITIONAL Catholic."
Good luck with that. Our apologetics is undermined from the getgo.
This is the issue.
Evangelisation comes from the pope.
Frank the Fraud on Evangelization: "Proselytizing is solemn nonsense."
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I guarantee that it would be easier to explain xxxxxxxxxxism to a prot and convert him with that than with R&R.
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I DO NOT have the esteemed editor of the HirschieFiles on ignore--life is too short to pass up such amusement.
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Evangelization in this climate is nearly impossible ... barring the grace of God alone.
Why?
"You're not Catholic? Well, what distinguishes Catholicism from the Protestants is the Catholic Magisterium and the papacy. [apologetics establishing why this is important] ... But, oh, by the way, you must ignore the Magisterium and the pope, refuse submission to him, and become a TRADITIONAL Catholic."
Good luck with that. Our apologetics is undermined from the getgo.
This, this, this. I am a former Protestant and have many Protestant friends whom I try to evangelize, I also try to reach Protestants through the internet. The current post-Conciliar mess is the biggest obstacle in evangelization - even though I am very closely interested in Catholic apologetics and I am fairly confident about my knowledge how to present the Biblical and historical evidence for the Eucharist, Marian dogmas, Papacy, Catholic doctrine of justification, Purgatory etc., the topic of current liberalism in the Church usually comes up in the conversations sooner or later. There are knowledgeable Protestants who realize what is going on in Vatican right now, and who are aware at least of the abomination of Assisi meetings, kissing of the Quran by John Paul II and religious indifferentism which the Conciliar Church embraces. As you say, explaining that they need to submit to the Papacy but ignore the current Magisterium and become Traditionalists is extremely hard. We need to pray for conversions more than ever.
I also know Protestants who see things more clearly than the majority of novus ordo Catholics. They also know what the Church always taught more than novus ordo Catholics. And they definitely know that Francis isn't good. One calls him "the Vicar of Marx."
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However, I do see new people attend the FSSP Mass, and I'm too shy to reach out to them before going into Mass. And no one else does either. I do care about the Novus Ordo Caths who make their way to the TLM, but if we don't show that we care by at least saying hello and welcoming them, they may only attend a few times, and then not come back.
If I wasn't a very strong-willed type who thinks a little confrontation dynamic spices things up, then I see how some of the "sergeant at arms" types in some of the chapels could be quite off-putting.
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I DO NOT have the esteemed editor of the HirschieFiles on ignore--life is too short to pass up such amusement.
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Laramie, I evangelize. I've told you this before. But, as hopefully you know, evangelizing is not a matter of this:
:fryingpan:
It's more a matter of looking for more subtle opportunities to invite. Ultimately, God does the work, if the conversion and the movements toward conversion are genuine. God's grace is far beyond my ability to explain to N.O.'ers rationally why Tradition and Catholicism are inseparable and interdependent. When they see a real Mass, the way it's supposed to be done, they generally see the stark differences between the two liturgies and understand that they have been living in a different "world."
Many N.O.'ers have been brainwashed by the 'Net, by forums like CAF, by bloggers like the recent ex-Proddies who "converted" but cling to the Protestantism rampant in the Conciliar Sect and are merely PR men for Conciliarism. That brainwashing says that anything that doesn't look new (literally) and modern, is, strictly speaking, "not Catholic." They lie and tell N.O.'ers that trads are "radicals" and schismatics. Therefore, getting non-trads even to be open (not hostile, not suspicious) of traditional liturgies, congregations, societies, institutes, and spirituality is a risky endeavor.
I do evangelize, but most often I have to do it semi-secretly (not in the hearing of convicted N.O.'ers who are eager to engage in the above brainwashing).
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Laramie, I evangelize. I've told you this before. But, as hopefully you know, evangelizing is not a matter of this:
:fryingpan:
It's more a matter of looking for more subtle opportunities to invite. Ultimately, God does the work, if the conversion and the movements toward conversion are genuine. God's grace is far beyond my ability to explain to N.O.'ers rationally why Tradition and Catholicism are inseparable and interdependent. When they see a real Mass, the way it's supposed to be done, they generally see the stark differences between the two liturgies and understand that they have been living in a different "world."
Many N.O.'ers have been brainwashed by the 'Net, by forums like CAF, by bloggers like the recent ex-Proddies who "converted" but cling to the Protestantism rampant in the Conciliar Sect and are merely PR men for Conciliarism. That brainwashing says that anything that doesn't look new (literally) and modern, is, strictly speaking, "not Catholic." They lie and tell N.O.'ers that trads are "radicals" and schismatics. Therefore, getting non-trads even to be open (not hostile, not suspicious) of traditional liturgies, congregations, societies, institutes, and spirituality is a risky endeavor.
I do evangelize, but most often I have to do it semi-secretly (not in the hearing of convicted N.O.'ers who are eager to engage in the above brainwashing).
I almost posted what you did but decided against it.
You are correct - thanks to a forum like CAF, novus ordo Catholics have been conditioned to despise traditionals. Most of them don't even know why they do, other than they just do.
Plus, most of them seem to love Francis and are very happy in their cotton candy universe of feelings and emotions and "being positive." They were brought up to care more about recycling than their souls. Their Catholic world is one huge gray question mark. Nothing is definitive. All is subjective. There is no "right or wrong."
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I definitely agree that there is a severe lack of evangelization among Traditional Catholics. I hold up this fact every time I mention SD and FE, pointing to their fears for online confrontations with atheists.
I disagree with the parallel you are making, along with your characterization of it as "fear."
Atheists, of the kind you have dealt with in forums, are hardened and on a mission to obliterate. That's not the same situation we're dealing with among N.O.'ers. The latter (the laity among them) are more lost and leaderless than on a mission to obliterate -- even though the N.O. Front Men (Francis' back-up PR brigade -- George Weigel, "Cardinal" Wuerl, "Cardinal" Dolan, Conciliar bloggers and forum owners, etc.) are aggressive in their efforts to silence and diminish traditionalism.
Also, what you and the Msgr. are doing is failing to see distinctions in roles and power. Many Conciliar priests-turned-trad are evangelizing other priests. For example, this has been happening among Dominicans, and it has produced a groundswell of demand for the Latin Mass in certain geographical pockets -- a demand which has overcome the supply in those areas.
The Msgr. doesn't get out enough. He half admits that in his article.
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You are correct - thanks to a forum like CAF, novus ordo Catholics have been conditioned to despise traditionals. Most of them don't even know why they do, other than they just do.
Bolded for the sad truth of it.
And this is the reason for their inertia:
Plus, most of them seem to love Francis and are very happy in their cotton candy universe of feelings and emotions and "being positive." They were brought up to care more about recycling than their souls. Their Catholic world is one huge gray question mark. Nothing is definitive. All is subjective. There is no "right or wrong."
They were also brought up to equate recycling with salvation, almost literally. And the Conciliar Sect conspired in that upbringing, even before Laudato Si.
Catholicism has been explained to them as Social Justice The so-called "Liberalism" and "Progressivism" of the Democratic Party: Egalitarianism, Feminism, Humanism, quasi-Marxism, etc.
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And of course, how could I forget "environmentalism"?
Notice the emphasis on The World.
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You are correct - thanks to a forum like CAF, novus ordo Catholics have been conditioned to despise traditionals. Most of them don't even know why they do, other than they just do.
Bolded for the sad truth of it.
And this is the reason for their inertia:
Plus, most of them seem to love Francis and are very happy in their cotton candy universe of feelings and emotions and "being positive." They were brought up to care more about recycling than their souls. Their Catholic world is one huge gray question mark. Nothing is definitive. All is subjective. There is no "right or wrong."
They were also brought up to equate recycling with salvation, almost literally. And the Conciliar Sect conspired in that upbringing, even before Laudato Si.
Catholicism has been explained to them as Social Justice The so-called "Liberalism" and "Progressivism" of the Democratic Party: Egalitarianism, Feminism, Humanism, quasi-Marxism, etc.
Agreed. I think too that trads remind the NO folks that there was a Church before Vll, and that there are still Catholics who believe in it. It causes confusion, maybe, and they want to be comfy with the way the Church is now. They don't like to be reminded of things that don't fit with what they want to believe.
But still, there are NO Caths who want to be faithful Catholics. Maybe not a lot, but a few. They're the ones, IMO, who may be interested in the Mass of All Time, and the traditional devotions.
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And of course, how could I forget "environmentalism"?
Notice the emphasis on The World.
If everyone is going to Heaven and Hell is empty, what else is there for them to do but to hug a tree?
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The bottom line is that the novus ordo religion has rendered the Catholic Church meaningless and useless. If the hierarchy were men of integrity and honest, they would just close up shop and let people do whatever. What do we need them for if our conscience is our supreme guide?
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I think too that trads remind the NO folks that there was a Church before Vll, and that there are still Catholics who believe in it. It causes confusion, maybe, and they want to be comfy with the way the Church is now. They don't like to be reminded of things that don't fit with what they want to believe.
But it's not just cognitive dissonance, although I agree that that's part of it. It's also a matter of "feeling left out." NewChurch is superficially conformist, and therefore Tradition is socially threatening. Some of it (more than most trads realize, i.m.o.) is Envy. So if you work really hard internally to deny that Tradition -- one of the essential pillars of Catholicism -- has any validity in the modern era, you can on some level "convince" yourself that you have not actually been not just left out but robbed -- a fact which should make a practicing Catholic enraged.
But still, there are NO Caths who want to be faithful Catholics. Maybe not a lot, but a few. They're the ones, IMO, who may be interested in the Mass of All Time, and the traditional devotions.
That's also whom I exclusively seek out. No point in pursuing the Happy-Clappy crowd who applaud for the musicians at the end of every N.O. Mass. For example, if I have the misfortune to be in an N.O. Church (say, for private prayer outside of Mass), I will notice someone who genuflects on both knees before the monstrance during Adoration hours. If I strategically position my timing so as to greet her (usually her) outside the church, I might mention being impressed or touched by her devotion and her knowledge of rubrics, and hope to get into a conversation about which rubrically authentic Mass I attend and how I'd love to invite her at her convenience.
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Back to the original post, it's not about numbers. Since when does "might make right" in Catholicism?
This isn't to say that you shouldn't try but, let's face facts, it cost to be a traditional Catholic. Many in the novus ordo lead lifestyles and are addicted to other things that they are not about to give up for anyone. Not even God. And, why should they? They have been raised to believe that feelings are facts, and they "feel" they are a good person. That's enough for them. And God is Merciful. Which He is. But I was taught pre-VII never to presume.
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I finally tried to read the comments for this Monsignor Pope article. I say "tried to read" because I no longer have much patience and tolerance left for a certain type of Catholic. It's the same old tripe one would encounter on CAF.
The only thing I find myself wondering lately in my old age on a daily basis is whether anyone owns a mirror anymore. :rolleyes: I have news for Mr. "Voice". I didn't find any "love of Christ" in the novus ordo pews either. What I did find were the most ruthless and cold individuals I have ever encountered anywhere.
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Insular - I love when they hurl that one. Well, yeah. That's what happens when you badger, belittle, bully and marginalize people. They tend to do that - become insular. And that's how Catholics were treated who were appalled by what they encountered post 1965.
Sorry everyone. An article like this infuriates me, and the comments even moreso.
They created the "monster" by their treatment of us, and then feign innocence "how did this ever happen??? :shocked: "
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Laramie, I evangelize. I've told you this before. But, as hopefully you know, evangelizing is not a matter of this:
:fryingpan:
It's more a matter of looking for more subtle opportunities to invite. Ultimately, God does the work, if the conversion and the movements toward conversion are genuine. God's grace is far beyond my ability to explain to N.O.'ers rationally why Tradition and Catholicism are inseparable and interdependent. When they see a real Mass, the way it's supposed to be done, they generally see the stark differences between the two liturgies and understand that they have been living in a different "world."
Many N.O.'ers have been brainwashed by the 'Net, by forums like CAF, by bloggers like the recent ex-Proddies who "converted" but cling to the Protestantism rampant in the Conciliar Sect and are merely PR men for Conciliarism. That brainwashing says that anything that doesn't look new (literally) and modern, is, strictly speaking, "not Catholic." They lie and tell N.O.'ers that trads are "radicals" and schismatics. Therefore, getting non-trads even to be open (not hostile, not suspicious) of traditional liturgies, congregations, societies, institutes, and spirituality is a risky endeavor.
I do evangelize, but most often I have to do it semi-secretly (not in the hearing of convicted N.O.'ers who are eager to engage in the above brainwashing).
I almost posted what you did but decided against it.
You are correct - thanks to a forum like CAF, novus ordo Catholics have been conditioned to despise traditionals. Most of them don't even know why they do, other than they just do.
Plus, most of them seem to love Francis and are very happy in their cotton candy universe of feelings and emotions and "being positive." They were brought up to care more about recycling than their souls. Their Catholic world is one huge gray question mark. Nothing is definitive. All is subjective. There is no "right or wrong."
I definitely agree that there is a severe lack of evangelization among Traditional Catholics. I hold up this fact every time I mention SD and FE, pointing to their fears for online confrontations with atheists.
I disagree with the parallel you are making, along with your characterization of it as "fear."
Atheists, of the kind you have dealt with in forums, are hardened and on a mission to obliterate. That's not the same situation we're dealing with among N.O.'ers. The latter (the laity among them) are more lost and leaderless than on a mission to obliterate -- even though the N.O. Front Men (Francis' back-up PR brigade -- George Weigel, "Cardinal" Wuerl, "Cardinal" Dolan, Conciliar bloggers and forum owners, etc.) are aggressive in their efforts to silence and diminish traditionalism.
Also, what you and the Msgr. are doing is failing to see distinctions in roles and power. Many Conciliar priests-turned-trad are evangelizing other priests. For example, this has been happening among Dominicans, and it has produced a groundswell of demand for the Latin Mass in certain geographical pockets -- a demand which has overcome the supply in those areas.
The Msgr. doesn't get out enough. He half admits that in his article.
Hmm. Good points, all. Makes me do a double take.
I think Mark Shea is not a very good voice in the Catholic realm. Most of us agree with this. However, I will stick up for Trent Horn, for now.
Yes, what is the point of getting these people into the Church, when they want to remain in Novus Ordo Land and not continue the journey of the Faith? What good is it to get people into the Church, but the people still remain pseudo-Protestant, still holding onto their worldly eccentricities?
I agree, then, that the journey of our Faith (though it's actually unending in this life) sort of climaxes and "completes" at Traditional Catholicism. I suppose Traditional Catholicism is the final aim when it comes to converting people.
So, I've got this question. What about converting people step-by-step? Incrementally? What if Traditional Catholicism is too much to swallow at first? Is incremental conversion a legitimate tactic in your opinion? If so, I suppose that's the role that CAF would be able to play in people's conversion.
Msgr. Pope's bias is clear. I said that in the OP. It's clear he wants the Church modernized into something horrid.
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TLM has reached it's ceiling? Yes. I do believe it is referred to as "Remnant". And it is prophetic. Chapter 12 of Daniel.
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So, I've got this question. What about converting people step-by-step? Incrementally? What if Traditional Catholicism is too much to swallow at first? Is incremental conversion a legitimate tactic in your opinion? If so, I suppose that's the role that CAF would be able to play in people's conversion.
How are those who convert due to CAF going to even find out about the "next step," with the way that Tradition and the TLM are treated on CAF? Tradition and the TLM are treated as a sort of leprosy by the progressive Catholics on CAF. The mods back them up.
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You are correct - thanks to a forum like CAF, novus ordo Catholics have been conditioned to despise traditionals. Most of them don't even know why they do, other than they just do.
Bolded for the sad truth of it.
And this is the reason for their inertia:
Plus, most of them seem to love Francis and are very happy in their cotton candy universe of feelings and emotions and "being positive." They were brought up to care more about recycling than their souls. Their Catholic world is one huge gray question mark. Nothing is definitive. All is subjective. There is no "right or wrong."
They were also brought up to equate recycling with salvation, almost literally. And the Conciliar Sect conspired in that upbringing, even before Laudato Si.
Catholicism has been explained to them as Social Justice The so-called "Liberalism" and "Progressivism" of the Democratic Party: Egalitarianism, Feminism, Humanism, quasi-Marxism, etc.
Agreed. I think too that trads remind the NO folks that there was a Church before Vll, and that there are still Catholics who believe in it. It causes confusion, maybe, and they want to be comfy with the way the Church is now. They don't like to be reminded of things that don't fit with what they want to believe.
But still, there are NO Caths who want to be faithful Catholics. Maybe not a lot, but a few. They're the ones, IMO, who may be interested in the Mass of All Time, and the traditional devotions.
This described me when I was in the NO. I had more zeal for tradition than anybody else I ever met in my 40 years in conciliardom. I lived in 2 different parishes, went to 2 different universities and attended a couple of different parishes in each different city plus the Newman Centers on each campus. Up until the end of the 1990s, I had only met one other person with any enthusiasm for the true Mass. Then when BXVI introduced the motu, there were maybe 3 families who regularly attended the TLM at the parish I was at then.
I would have moved to tradition much sooner had I found that it still existed sooner. Traditionalists "evangelizing" me as an NOer would have been very effective. For quite some time, I was bitter for traditionalists groups not seeking out souls such as me trapped in conciliardom. But practically speaking, I'm sure that their overall success rate would have been frustratingly dismal.
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I DO NOT have the esteemed editor of the HirschieFiles on ignore--life is too short to pass up such amusement.
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So, I've got this question. What about converting people step-by-step? Incrementally? What if Traditional Catholicism is too much to swallow at first? Is incremental conversion a legitimate tactic in your opinion? If so, I suppose that's the role that CAF would be able to play in people's conversion.
How are those who convert due to CAF going to even find out about the "next step," with the way that Tradition and the TLM are treated on CAF? Tradition and the TLM are treated as a sort of leprosy by the progressive Catholics on CAF. The mods back them up.
Yes, those who would be able to convert are typically banned before they even get a chance.
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[
So, I've got this question. What about converting people step-by-step? Incrementally? What if Traditional Catholicism is too much to swallow at first? Is incremental conversion a legitimate tactic in your opinion? If so, I suppose that's the role that CAF would be able to play in people's conversion.
How are those who convert due to CAF going to even find out about the "next step," with the way that Tradition and the TLM are treated on CAF? Tradition and the TLM are treated as a sort of leprosy by the progressive Catholics on CAF. The mods back them up.
The percentage of those who would convert to conciliardom and then ultimately move on to the fullness of true Catholicism would certainly be low. I would dare say that in sheer numbers, people converting directly to the fullness of true Catholicism would outnumber those getting there incrementally via passing through conciliardom.
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I DO NOT have the esteemed editor of the HirschieFiles on ignore--life is too short to pass up such amusement.
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Does "Monsignor" Pope even mention Vatican II in this article? I don't see it.
He doesn't even mention the problem. How the heck is he going to solve it?
Yet another "conservative" Novus Ordo cleric who doesn't have a clue.
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This described me when I was in the NO. I had more zeal for tradition than anybody else I ever met in my 40 years in conciliardom. I lived in 2 different parishes, went to 2 different universities and attended a couple of different parishes in each different city plus the Newman Centers on each campus. Up until the end of the 1990s, I had only met one other person with any enthusiasm for the true Mass. Then when BXVI introduced the motu, there were maybe 3 families who regularly attended the TLM at the parish I was at then.
I would have moved to tradition much sooner had I found that it still existed sooner. Traditionalists "evangelizing" me as an NOer would have been very effective. For quite some time, I was bitter for traditionalists groups not seeking out souls such as me trapped in conciliardom. But practically speaking, I'm sure that their overall success rate would have been frustratingly dismal.
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I DO NOT have the esteemed editor of the HirschieFiles on ignore--life is too short to pass up such amusement.
Wow....that's quite a story! Do you have any ideas as to how trads can go about trying to seek out souls lost in conciliardom? MMagdala described how she talks to devout Catholics after the NO adoration, which I think is excellent. Not sure if I'm brave enough to do that, though.
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Not brave enough to talk to a devout Catholic after the NO adoration? How are you going to face the lions?
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As irksome as this article is, at first glance, it seems to me there is a veiled call to action buried in it.
Traditional Catholics ought to know their faith well enough to hold their own against all-comers, be they Protestants or atheists or agnostics.
The key is to practice. We ought to get out and test our faith, in a spirit of prayerfulness, and with the blessing of a good priest.
I see Mormons on bicycles wearing white shirts and black ties, riding up and down the streets, offering people to help with broken-down cars, or attending to the sick. Have you ever seen a 'Trad Cat' doing that? They make appointments to come back and discuss their faith at a later time, and they're serious about their work, even though they're steeped in objective heresy.
It's a little challenging for me to hold back on words of encouragement to them, when they are so overflowing with zeal (albeit misdirected!), but I can't bring myself to say to them, "Godspeed" or "May your works prosper."
We have 7th Day Adventists and so-called evangelical Protestants who go out seeking dialogue, and they manage to draw attention to their work. I've heard it said that these groups are making great strides in Latin America.
If you have ever heard of Tony Alamo, he has his home ranch or whatever in Canyon Country, CA, right on Sierra Highway, on the way to Acton. They put on a free dinner for anyone who drops in every night there, a kind of buffet that covers all the food groups, something for everyone. Alamo apparently has a prison ministry in Texas, as well, and in his newsletter he publishes some of the letters that inmates from TX have written, thanking him for his help.
We ought to be paying attention to the reality.
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This described me when I was in the NO. I had more zeal for tradition than anybody else I ever met in my 40 years in conciliardom. I lived in 2 different parishes, went to 2 different universities and attended a couple of different parishes in each different city plus the Newman Centers on each campus. Up until the end of the 1990s, I had only met one other person with any enthusiasm for the true Mass. Then when BXVI introduced the motu, there were maybe 3 families who regularly attended the TLM at the parish I was at then.
I would have moved to tradition much sooner had I found that it still existed sooner. Traditionalists "evangelizing" me as an NOer would have been very effective. For quite some time, I was bitter for traditionalists groups not seeking out souls such as me trapped in conciliardom. But practically speaking, I'm sure that their overall success rate would have been frustratingly dismal.
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I DO NOT have the esteemed editor of the HirschieFiles on ignore--life is too short to pass up such amusement.
Wow....that's quite a story! Do you have any ideas as to how trads can go about trying to seek out souls lost in conciliardom? MMagdala described how she talks to devout Catholics after the NO adoration, which I think is excellent. Not sure if I'm brave enough to do that, though.
I used to think they should have snuck literature into the NO churches or passed out material after "mass." But looking back on it, I don't think hardly any conciliarist would be interested. Purely anecdotal personal experience--but I would speculate that over a 5 - 10 year span only about 1 per 8 normal size parishes would come to the fullness of true Catholicism.
I broached the subject of wishing the Church would move back to tradition with a number of priests and parishioners over the years. Most were complete brush-offs, maybe a couple of lukewarms, and one fairly zealous (who I believe has remained in the diocesan framework). I went to some kind of college group (not Newman Center) one time and brought the topic up. The priest quickly suppressed it, bragged that he himself was divorced, and moved right along. I never went back to that group.
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I DO NOT have the esteemed editor of the HirschieFiles on ignore--life is too short to pass up such amusement.
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Not brave enough to talk to a devout Catholic after the NO adoration? How are you going to face the lions?
I think Meg would be able to face the lions just fine, I'd say.
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We ought to be paying attention to the reality.
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Agreed. It'd be awesome if Trads adopted the tactics of these wacky Protestants.
Those groups will rope people in, drawing them into a microcosm--and then the people led there find out that it's just a sort of hollow cult.
But in our case, people led into true Catholicism would find an unending ocean of truth and beauty, and they would feel justified and right for trusting us to lead them here.
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Fr. Z weighs in on Msgr. Pope's article, too.
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2016/01/tlm-evangelize-or-else-close-and-die/
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As irksome as this article is, at first glance, it seems to me there is a veiled call to action buried in it.
Traditional Catholics ought to know their faith well enough to hold their own against all-comers, be they Protestants or atheists or agnostics.
The key is to practice. We ought to get out and test our faith, in a spirit of prayerfulness, and with the blessing of a good priest.
I see Mormons on bicycles wearing white shirts and black ties, riding up and down the streets, offering people to help with broken-down cars, or attending to the sick. Have you ever seen a 'Trad Cat' doing that? They make appointments to come back and discuss their faith at a later time, and they're serious about their work, even though they're steeped in objective heresy.
It's a little challenging for me to hold back on words of encouragement to them, when they are so overflowing with zeal (albeit misdirected!), but I can't bring myself to say to them, "Godspeed" or "May your works prosper."
We have 7th Day Adventists and so-called evangelical Protestants who go out seeking dialogue, and they manage to draw attention to their work. I've heard it said that these groups are making great strides in Latin America.
If you have ever heard of Tony Alamo, he has his home ranch or whatever in Canyon Country, CA, right on Sierra Highway, on the way to Acton. They put on a free dinner for anyone who drops in every night there, a kind of buffet that covers all the food groups, something for everyone. Alamo apparently has a prison ministry in Texas, as well, and in his newsletter he publishes some of the letters that inmates from TX have written, thanking him for his help.
We ought to be paying attention to the reality.
.
Their proselytising efforts are supported by their leaders. Their leaders still tell them that they are the one true church, so they actually have a reason to proselytise. It would be a bit bizarre for Catholics to go around proselytising on the streets only for those willing to convert to hear our pope saying that all religions are paths to salvation and conversion is not necessary as long as you are a "sincere person", that to proselytise is "solemn nonsense".
Our leaders don't care about evangelising, it seems. They either want us to be quiet or want us to join in their ecuмenist dances.
If we still had an Order of Preachers to teach us how to preach . . . but we only have the Order of Dialoguers.
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So, I've got this question. What about converting people step-by-step? Incrementally? What if Traditional Catholicism is too much to swallow at first? Is incremental conversion a legitimate tactic in your opinion? If so, I suppose that's the role that CAF would be able to play in people's conversion.
How are those who convert due to CAF going to even find out about the "next step," with the way that Tradition and the TLM are treated on CAF? Tradition and the TLM are treated as a sort of leprosy by the progressive Catholics on CAF. The mods back them up.
Now this thread on CAF is interesting. We see all kinds of responses to Francis' latest:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=994405&page=4
There are folks here who are starting to get it...especially the converts. These folks are the people who could use some evangelization, but if any one of us were to join and start posting the Truth in there, we would be banned in a New York minute.
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(..)
There are folks here who are starting to get it...especially the converts. These folks are the people who could use some evangelization, but if any one of us were to join and start posting the Truth in there, we would be banned in a New York minute.
Francis is now apostatising from the NO/CA apostasy.
Meaning that by NO's own standards he is going too far.
Also: that thread is vomit inducing
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(..)
There are folks here who are starting to get it...especially the converts. These folks are the people who could use some evangelization, but if any one of us were to join and start posting the Truth in there, we would be banned in a New York minute.
Francis is now apostatising from the NO/CA apostasy.
Meaning that by NO's own standards he is going too far.
Yes, if they could just get Benedict back! :cry:
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(..)
There are folks here who are starting to get it...especially the converts. These folks are the people who could use some evangelization, but if any one of us were to join and start posting the Truth in there, we would be banned in a New York minute.
Francis is now apostatising from the NO/CA apostasy.
Meaning that by NO's own standards he is going too far.
Also: that thread is vomit inducing
And quite sad.
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These folks are the people who could use some evangelization, but if any one of us were to join and start posting the Truth in there, we would be banned in a New York minute.
Well, I suppose one could survive with heavy self-censorship.
And sneak in bits of truth stealthily by feigning innocence and ignorance, like :
"Oh, but I read in XXX encyclical that... "
"How do you reconcile that with XXX ?"
"My traditionalist cousin told me ZZZ! How can this be???"
Of course that would be morally grey if not outright deceitful probably.
Probably almost entirely fruitless too, as I've seen past Doctrine and even Popes and even God (!!!!) being condemned as "intolerant" or "uncharitable" "erroneous" with ease in that cesspit of a forum.
What about, pm'ing the people more obviously in spiritual pain, inviting them to an honest discussion about their issues?
And quite sad.
The desperation and frustration from the converts transpires from their comments... here's people who thought they were joining the One True Church, often with significant personal/social difficulty, and just now start realising they've just plunged in a nightmarish cage of doublethink, vileness and insanity.
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Good points Desmond. I also have since thought that PMing might be a good idea.
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I see that Laramie dipped his toe in the water:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?s=8b18f74b9dc6577445c45981373a0a30&t=994405&page=8
By the way, Meg --if you're reading-- I will be inviting the most hardcore, anti-trad Conciliarist I know to our High Mass on Easter Sunday, because I happen to know he will be available for that, and I plan on luring him with An Offer Difficult to Refuse.
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I see that Laramie dipped his toe in the water:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?s=8b18f74b9dc6577445c45981373a0a30&t=994405&page=8
By the way, Meg --if you're reading-- I will be inviting the most hardcore, anti-trad Conciliarist I know to our High Mass on Easter Sunday, because I happen to know he will be available for that, and I plan on luring him with An Offer Difficult to Refuse.
Bless you for what you do, which is quite inspiring. You must be quite a patient person, and persistent!
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I see that Laramie dipped his toe in the water:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?s=8b18f74b9dc6577445c45981373a0a30&t=994405&page=8
By the way, Meg --if you're reading-- I will be inviting the most hardcore, anti-trad Conciliarist I know to our High Mass on Easter Sunday, because I happen to know he will be available for that, and I plan on luring him with An Offer Difficult to Refuse.
Bless you for what you do, which is quite inspiring. You must be quite a patient person, and persistent!
Patient I am not. Impatience is one of my worst faults. However, I am determined and am motivated to cure his blindness -- the blindness being that Tradition is "no longer Catholic."
I also think -- if he does come, which I admit is a long shot, even though I am being very strategic about the invitation -- he will be blown away by the Confession lines which persist before, during, and after Mass in a continuous stream. Often they are on both sides of the church, but they are always that long on at least one side.
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Who is Laramie if I may ask?
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Who is Laramie if I may ask?
A legend in his own mind.
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I DO NOT have the esteemed editor of the HirschieFiles on ignore--life is too short to pass up such amusement.
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Who is Laramie if I may ask?
He is the OP here. Apparently he did post at CAF that the video was unsettling. When I posted the thread I had not read that far. I love one of the responses to him:
Think about this folks. This video message/prayer request is a first in many ways. It is very well made and the request is reasonable and heartfelt. If you feel unsettled about what you heard, ask God to help you see why.
No, my dear, you have to ask God to help you see why the video doesn't make you feel at least unsettled.
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Louie Verrhechio has weighed in with his opinion on the subject, and he makes some good points. A few quotes:
"....Look, I don't know if Msgr Pope is correct in saying that the Traditional Latin Mass attendance has reached something of a ceiling, but if it has, who can be surprised?
Whenever and wherever evil and goodness are given equal rights, the fallen human condition is such that men will more often choose the former; he will more frequently than not choose that which is easy, and comfortable, and entertaining over and against that which is truly good--even as doing so renders him great harm.
As Archbishop Lefebvre pointed out in his book, Against the Heresies,"It is easier to do evil than good, it is more in conformity with the disorder in human nature."
In the present case, not only do our sacred pastors treat the Novus Ordo Missae as an equal to the Mass of Ages; they give it pride of place!......"
More here:
https://akacatholic.com/ceiling-made-of-lies/