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Author Topic: The secret hidden within Marian Consecration  (Read 11173 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The secret hidden within Marian Consecration
« Reply #60 on: February 27, 2018, 11:03:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 27, 2018, 10:37:13 AM
    The act of baptism is an act of Faith, therefore that is a meritorious act, is it not?  The infant does not request baptism of his own will, but the Church allows its Godparents to request this sacrament and to request the Faith, therefore that act, of being admitted to the Church is enough to merit heaven, right?

    No, there's no actual merit there.  There have to be supernatural good works from acts of the will.

    It's the same difference as between the infused supernatural virtues (which put the souls into a state of grace) .. and actual good works which bring increases in sanctifying grace.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The secret hidden within Marian Consecration
    « Reply #61 on: February 27, 2018, 11:06:51 AM »
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    • In any case, I've given all my merits, such as they are, to Our Lady.  And if she wanted to withhold the minimum amount of merit required to heaven, then I willingly give that to her as well ... to please her.  If she loves someone more than she loves me, and wishes to take from me to give to that other person, then I am happy to please her that way by giving it up.  What matters to me is to make Our Lady happy ... even if it's at the expense of my own happiness.
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: The secret hidden within Marian Consecration
    « Reply #62 on: February 27, 2018, 11:11:14 AM »
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    • I admit I quickly scanned this thread and my conclusion is this:  It seems that Pax feels devotion to Mary takes away devotion to God.  Is that it Pax?


    I might be wrong on my private interpretation of the meaning of the word in the Magnificat (Biblical) when Our Lady said with her own words, "My soul does magnify the Lord."  I think of this as her saying her soul increases the Lord.  Just as her soul magnifies the Lord it is the gift of grace from Mary especially when we ask for graces, that will magnify or increase my love for her Son, Jesus Christ.  Meaning you can't love Mary too much because the more you love Mary the more you will love her Son.  

    I confess the only point I have trouble with myself with True Devotion to Mary with one rule of not being able to mention our own personal intentions.  I am weak to just trust that we just pray and give any merits we earn to her to distribute as she chooses. I can't just stop praying for my loved one, I want so much to ask myself through Mary with words that my loved ones, all of them will die in Gods favor. 

    Every morning I ask God for the conversion of the Jews that are promised us at the end times.  Who are we to say who are these True Jews?  Don't you believe that God knows who they are, why even concern yourselves with that point?     
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The secret hidden within Marian Consecration
    « Reply #63 on: February 27, 2018, 11:13:24 AM »
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    No, there's no actual merit there.  There have to be supernatural good works from acts of the will.
    I disagree - reception of a sacrament is a supernaturally good work, therefore it is a meritorious act.  How can it not be?

    You can argue that an infant did not WILL this good work, but if the Church allows them to be baptized into the Faith, then by extension, She allows them to benefit from the meritorious act of baptism.  It's part of the salvific mystery.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The secret hidden within Marian Consecration
    « Reply #64 on: February 27, 2018, 11:14:43 AM »
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    It seems that Pax feels devotion to Mary takes away devotion to God.  Is that it Pax?
    No, PG is the one who has a problem with St Louie, not I.
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    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: The secret hidden within Marian Consecration
    « Reply #65 on: February 27, 2018, 11:15:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on February 27, 2018, 09:58:47 AM
    Are you saying that there are not true Israelites left in the world (in the physical sense the OP is referring to - of course not present day "Israel")? And if so, which specifically are the Jews that the "predilection" and future conversion are referred to in Romans 11?.  
    To my knowledge, only Roman Jews, today, are descended from early Hebrews who predate Jesus Christ. These same early Hebrews migrated to Rome before Jesus Christ was born. They, supposedly, never engaged in miscegenation with Romans/Italians up to this very day. They were always protected by Roman rule, even through Mussolini's reign. For some reason, even Mussolini made an effort to protect them. If it's true that they are racially unmixed and undiluted, they are the only Jews who have Davidian blood. They're still the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan because they reject Jesus Christ, therefore they are not real Jews in the spiritual sense, but to answer your question, they could be the only blood descendants whom are possibly referenced by Romans 11.

    How do we know Romans 11 is not referring to post-Vatican II counterfeit "Catholics" / Newchurch?
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: The secret hidden within Marian Consecration
    « Reply #66 on: February 27, 2018, 11:16:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 27, 2018, 11:14:43 AM
    No, PG is the one who has a problem with St Louie, not I.
    You are correct I meant to say PG, not Pax Vobis.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The secret hidden within Marian Consecration
    « Reply #67 on: February 27, 2018, 11:19:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 27, 2018, 11:03:26 AM
    No, there's no actual merit there.  There have to be supernatural good works from acts of the will.

    It's the same difference as between the infused supernatural virtues (which put the souls into a state of grace) .. and actual good works which bring increases in sanctifying grace.

    And the other thing I've learned (elsewhere) is that, when people commit mortal sin, they lose all their merits.  And they do not get these back by going to Confession.  They start fresh.  St. Louis de Montfort believed that, in giving these to Our Lady, they're actually preserved as hers, and she can even give them back after the soul is restored to a state of grace.  If she wants to, that is.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The secret hidden within Marian Consecration
    « Reply #68 on: February 27, 2018, 11:20:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: MyrnaM on February 27, 2018, 11:16:32 AM
    You are correct I meant to say PG, not Pax Vobis.

    Yeah, the Ps get confusing.  PG, PV, etc.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The secret hidden within Marian Consecration
    « Reply #69 on: February 27, 2018, 11:24:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 27, 2018, 11:13:24 AM
    I disagree - reception of a sacrament is a supernaturally good work, therefore it is a meritorious act.  How can it not be?

    But the infant did not actually WILL to be baptized.  Again, there's a difference between the STATE of merit that any soul in a state of grace has and the ACTUAL merits acquired by the soul.  It's the same difference as being in a baseline STATE of grace and then receiving additional ACTUAL grace.  So the difference here is between being in a STATE of merit (sanctifying grace) and of being CAPABLE of acquiring more supernatural merit ... and ACTUAL merit.

    If I recall, and I haven't read St. Louis de Montfort in quite some time, he actually distinguished clearly between this STATE of merit or grace that is incommunicable vs. the ACTUAL merits that CAN be transferred to Our Lady.  That sticks in my mind.

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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The secret hidden within Marian Consecration
    « Reply #70 on: February 27, 2018, 11:29:46 AM »
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    And the other thing I've learned (elsewhere) is that, when people commit mortal sin, they lose all their merits.  And they do not get these back by going to Confession.
    No they don't lose merits from the past, they just don't gain any when in mortal sin.  Let's say a person had a great lent up until the Sunday of Holy week and commits a mortal sin on that sunday.  Then they don't go to confession until 6 days later, on Holy Saturday.  They wouldn't lose their merit for the 90% of lent, they would just lose merit for the week of Holy week when they were in mortal sin.  And after confession, they do not get back this merit from Holy Week.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The secret hidden within Marian Consecration
    « Reply #71 on: February 27, 2018, 11:35:53 AM »
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    So the difference here is between being in a STATE of merit (sanctifying grace) and of being CAPABLE of acquiring more supernatural merit ... and ACTUAL merit.
    I agree, but I don't think St Louie discussed whether or not an infant merits heaven (and I don't want to derail the conversation) but the act of receiving baptism is a meritorious act, in and of itself.  Just as it is meritorious for one to go to confession or communion, etc.  It is a mystery why the Church allows an infant to receive baptism, but that is another matter.  Suffice it to say, if an infant does not gain the merits for baptism, then they would not be able to enter heaven.  I mean, the godparents don't receive the merits; neither do the parents.  (They get merits for having the child baptised, but i'm talking about the actual merits for the sacrament.)  There are merits for this act, since there is grace attached, so who gets them?  Obviously, the infant.  Though this is a mystery.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The secret hidden within Marian Consecration
    « Reply #72 on: February 27, 2018, 11:40:35 AM »
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    • St. Louis de Montfort:
    Quote
    We give her our merits, graces and virtues, not that she might give them to others, for they are, strictly speaking, not transferable, because Jesus alone, in making himself our surety with his Father, had the power to impart his merits to us. But we give them to her that she may keep, increase and embellish them for us, as we shall explain later, and we give her our acts of atonement that she may apply them where she pleases for God's greater glory.
    ...
    It follows then that anyone who in this way consecrates and sacrifices himself voluntarily to Jesus through Mary may no longer dispose of the value of any of his good actions.

    St. Louis distinguishes clearly between the merit inherent in the good actions vs. the VALUE of the good actions.  So, for instance, I can fast and pray for someone's conversion.  When I fast and pray, I become a better person for it, and increase in sanctifying grace, and that part is non-transferable, but then I am applying the VALUE of these things for the good of this particular soul.  With this consecration I can no longer do that; Our Lady decides where and how to apply the VALUE of these actions.  And St. Louis adds the additional caveat that this is within the limits of the requirements of someone's state in life.

    Quote
    This dependence, however, is without detriment to the duties of a person's present and future state of life. One such duty, for example, would be that of a priest who, by virtue of his office or otherwise, must apply the satisfactory or prayer value of the Holy Mass to a particular person. For this consecration can only be made in accordance with the order established by God and in keeping with the duties of one's state of life.


    So, then, what exactly is your problem with this?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The secret hidden within Marian Consecration
    « Reply #73 on: February 27, 2018, 11:45:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 27, 2018, 11:35:53 AM
    I agree, but I don't think St Louie discussed whether or not an infant merits heaven (and I don't want to derail the conversation) but the act of receiving baptism is a meritorious act, in and of itself.  Just as it is meritorious for one to go to confession or communion, etc.  It is a mystery why the Church allows an infant to receive baptism, but that is another matter.  Suffice it to say, if an infant does not gain the merits for baptism, then they would not be able to enter heaven.  I mean, the godparents don't receive the merits; neither do the parents.  (They get merits for having the child baptised, but i'm talking about the actual merits for the sacrament.)  There are merits for this act, since there is grace attached, so who gets them?  Obviously, the infant.  Though this is a mystery.

    As per the previous citation from St. Louis de Montfort, this is a moot discussion ... as PG grossly mischaracterized his actual teaching on this subject.  St. Louis distinguishes between the non-transferrable aspect of merits, and the transferrable value of them.

    Again, I'm certain that as part of the canonization process for St. Louis, there was a heavy theological vetting of his works, and yet PG can shoot from the hip to tear down St. Louis de Montfort ... and here we see him completely distorting his teaching ... and tearing down a straw man.
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    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: The secret hidden within Marian Consecration
    « Reply #74 on: February 27, 2018, 12:06:25 PM »
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    Myrna: Meaning you can't love Mary too much because the more you love Mary the more you will love her Son. 

    Yes, and besides Louis de Montfort, you have backing up that statement, such illustrious saints as St. Boniface, St. Bernard, St. Aloysius Gonzaga, and Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich.  Though he is not yet a canonized saint, and probably never will be, you have, also, Bp. Richard Williamson.
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