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Author Topic: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite  (Read 3881 times)

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Offline AJNC

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The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2011, 12:09:10 AM »
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  • I recently received this email which has some bearing on this topic, and which I share with you:

    From Mumbai, India:

    Welcoming the New Revised Roman Missal (T.E. [The Examiner, Mumbai ed.] November 26), Cardinal Oswald Gracias [of Mumbai] tells that it is thrilling that many of the revised texts now go back to 1000 years and beyond, to what was said by St. Francis of Assisi and other saints.

     

    The Normative Roman Missal of Paul VI, issued first in Latin in 1969, remains untouched and the revised texts cited by Cardinal Gracias are only from the Ordinary of the Mass, which were common to the predecessor Latin Missals as well, as re-translated “formally” into English.

     

    But a novelty in the Paul VI Missal of 1969, which  remains untouched in both the Latin and revised English versions, is the “offertory” or Preparation of the Gifts. Careful research carried out by Craig Heimbichner, a convert and recognized expert on Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and the occult, who is reachable at Catholic Family News, USA, has written: “A modern myth is that this "Jєωιѕн table blessing" has its roots in worship from the time of Ezra. Searching the Bible should reveal that this story is absent from the pages of Holy Writ. Where, then, does it originate? The Jєωιѕн Encyclopedia  (published 1901-1906, consisting of twelve volumes) tells us, in its article on Benedictions, that this story of the origin of "blessings" in Judaism is a "rabbinical tradition" in the тαℓмυd itself, ---in Berakoth 33a,” and he continues later: “And it is from this false religion, premised on the rejection of Jesus, that the replacement of the Offertory was culled.”  

     

    Whether the saints cited by Cardinal Oswald Gracias would have used such a missal is indeed questionable.  

     

    John Menezes
    7 Esperanca, S. Bhagatsingh Road, Mumbai 400 001; Tel: 2202 5249.

     

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
    « Reply #31 on: December 06, 2011, 04:29:21 AM »
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  • Quote from: pax
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Hey Pax you wrote:

    If the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid then please state the reasons why.

    Did you miss the following, or is it too long for your attention span?...


    Yes. It is too long for my attention span.

    Perhaps you could explain it to me in simpler language.

    Thanks.


    No language would be simple enough for you. You have rejected it already.


    Offline pax

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    The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
    « Reply #32 on: December 06, 2011, 07:07:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: pax
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Hey Pax you wrote:

    If the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid then please state the reasons why.

    Did you miss the following, or is it too long for your attention span?...


    Yes. It is too long for my attention span.

    Perhaps you could explain it to me in simpler language.

    Thanks.


    No language would be simple enough for you. You have rejected it already.


    True. I reject it for the same reasons I reject dissertations from Protestants. I do, however, accept the critique from Cardinal Ottaviani.
    Multiculturalism exchanges honest ignorance for the illusion of truth.

    Offline pax

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    The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
    « Reply #33 on: December 06, 2011, 07:11:09 AM »
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  • Quote from: AJNC
    I recently received this email which has some bearing on this topic, and which I share with you:

    From Mumbai, India:

    Welcoming the New Revised Roman Missal (T.E. [The Examiner, Mumbai ed.] November 26), Cardinal Oswald Gracias [of Mumbai] tells that it is thrilling that many of the revised texts now go back to 1000 years and beyond, to what was said by St. Francis of Assisi and other saints.

     

    The Normative Roman Missal of Paul VI, issued first in Latin in 1969, remains untouched and the revised texts cited by Cardinal Gracias are only from the Ordinary of the Mass, which were common to the predecessor Latin Missals as well, as re-translated “formally” into English.

     

    But a novelty in the Paul VI Missal of 1969, which  remains untouched in both the Latin and revised English versions, is the “offertory” or Preparation of the Gifts. Careful research carried out by Craig Heimbichner, a convert and recognized expert on Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and the occult, who is reachable at Catholic Family News, USA, has written: “A modern myth is that this "Jєωιѕн table blessing" has its roots in worship from the time of Ezra. Searching the Bible should reveal that this story is absent from the pages of Holy Writ. Where, then, does it originate? The Jєωιѕн Encyclopedia  (published 1901-1906, consisting of twelve volumes) tells us, in its article on Benedictions, that this story of the origin of "blessings" in Judaism is a "rabbinical tradition" in the тαℓмυd itself, ---in Berakoth 33a,” and he continues later: “And it is from this false religion, premised on the rejection of Jesus, that the replacement of the Offertory was culled.”  

     

    Whether the saints cited by Cardinal Oswald Gracias would have used such a missal is indeed questionable.  

     

    John Menezes
    7 Esperanca, S. Bhagatsingh Road, Mumbai 400 001; Tel: 2202 5249.

     


    That is certainly something has always troubled me. Why the Pope chose to insert a prayer in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that dates back to medieval rabbinical judaism is beyond my ability to comprehend. Nonetheless, I do not see anything in the words of the prayers themselves that are heretical.
    Multiculturalism exchanges honest ignorance for the illusion of truth.

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
    « Reply #34 on: December 06, 2011, 07:23:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: pax
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: pax
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Hey Pax you wrote:

    If the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid then please state the reasons why.

    Did you miss the following, or is it too long for your attention span?...


    Yes. It is too long for my attention span.

    Perhaps you could explain it to me in simpler language.

    Thanks.


    No language would be simple enough for you. You have rejected it already.


    True. I reject it for the same reasons I reject dissertations from Protestants. I do, however, accept the critique from Cardinal Ottaviani.


    Why do waste time and attempt to get others to waste their time by requesting they post things that you know you won't read?


    Offline pax

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    The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
    « Reply #35 on: December 06, 2011, 09:43:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: pax
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: pax
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Hey Pax you wrote:

    If the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid then please state the reasons why.

    Did you miss the following, or is it too long for your attention span?...


    Yes. It is too long for my attention span.

    Perhaps you could explain it to me in simpler language.

    Thanks.


    No language would be simple enough for you. You have rejected it already.


    True. I reject it for the same reasons I reject dissertations from Protestants. I do, however, accept the critique from Cardinal Ottaviani.


    Why do waste time and attempt to get others to waste their time by requesting they post things that you know you won't read?


    I never requested that post.

    I have asked for the official teaching from the Magisterium.

    By the way, do you have the official teaching from the Magisterium on what to do if a Pope teaches heresy?

    And when I say "official teaching of the Magisterium" I mean a docuмent ordered promulgated by a reigning Pontiff, not the musing of some theologian, even one so great as Saint Robert Bellarmine.
    Multiculturalism exchanges honest ignorance for the illusion of truth.

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
    « Reply #36 on: December 06, 2011, 09:48:51 PM »
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  • Quote from: pax
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: pax
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: pax
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Hey Pax you wrote:

    If the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid then please state the reasons why.

    Did you miss the following, or is it too long for your attention span?...


    Yes. It is too long for my attention span.

    Perhaps you could explain it to me in simpler language.

    Thanks.


    No language would be simple enough for you. You have rejected it already.


    True. I reject it for the same reasons I reject dissertations from Protestants. I do, however, accept the critique from Cardinal Ottaviani.


    Why do waste time and attempt to get others to waste their time by requesting they post things that you know you won't read?


    I never requested that post.

    I have asked for the official teaching from the Magisterium.

    By the way, do you have the official teaching from the Magisterium on what to do if a Pope teaches heresy?

    And when I say "official teaching of the Magisterium" I mean a docuмent ordered promulgated by a reigning Pontiff, not the musing of some theologian, even one so great as Saint Robert Bellarmine.


    You wrote:
    If the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid then please state the reasons why.


    And then after I posted an article you replied to me:
    Perhaps you could explain it to me in simpler language.

    You know that you are not open to it, no matter how simply put, as you have already admitted.

    Offline pax

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    The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
    « Reply #37 on: December 07, 2011, 08:00:58 AM »
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  • Quote from: Roman Catholic
    You wrote:
    If the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid then please state the reasons why.


    And then after I posted an article you replied to me:
    Perhaps you could explain it to me in simpler language.

    You know that you are not open to it, no matter how simply put, as you have already admitted.


    Forgive me. I took it as a given that in order to invalidate an official Mass some sort of official docuмent would be necessary, and not just the musings of a theologian.
    Multiculturalism exchanges honest ignorance for the illusion of truth.


    Offline Roman Catholic

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    The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
    « Reply #38 on: December 07, 2011, 08:06:06 AM »
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  • The crteria for validity and invalidity has been laid down by the Church.

    Offline pax

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    « Reply #39 on: December 07, 2011, 08:07:38 AM »
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  • Quote from: Roman Catholic
    The crteria for validity and invalidity has been laid down by the Church.


    Ok. So cite the docuмent for invalidity and then demonstrate how the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid.
    Multiculturalism exchanges honest ignorance for the illusion of truth.

    Offline Roman Catholic

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    The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
    « Reply #40 on: December 07, 2011, 08:12:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: pax
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    The crteria for validity and invalidity has been laid down by the Church.


    Ok. So cite the docuмent for invalidity and then demonstrate how the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid.


    You must be joking. You are a time-waster who has already admitted you won't read docuмents.

    You have the attention span of a moth - remember?

    But if you get ambitious go look up De Defectibus - that would be a start -- if you could get through it. It's pretty short.


    Offline pax

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    The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
    « Reply #41 on: December 07, 2011, 10:33:22 AM »
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  • Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: pax
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    The crteria for validity and invalidity has been laid down by the Church.


    Ok. So cite the docuмent for invalidity and then demonstrate how the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid.


    You must be joking. You are a time-waster who has already admitted you won't read docuмents.

    You have the attention span of a moth - remember?

    But if you get ambitious go look up De Defectibus - that would be a start -- if you could get through it. It's pretty short.


    Ok. Iread it. Obviously I am not seeing what you are seeing. Please cite the relevant parts.
    Multiculturalism exchanges honest ignorance for the illusion of truth.

    Offline MiserereMeiDeus

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    The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
    « Reply #42 on: December 07, 2011, 11:06:28 AM »
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  • Quote from: Santo Subito

    The CCC and the current NO Missal define the Mass as a sacrifice.


    Please substantiate. I read through every bit of the CCC that addresses the Liturgy on the Vatican website just a few days ago and could not find the word sacrifice, nor any mention of any propitiatory function of the NO or even the expiation of sins. Just page after page of syrupy feel good goo and repeated references to something called the "Paschal Mystery." As for the Missal, are you certain, if a reference to a sacrifice even is in there, that it isn't in some non-official filler typical only to the edition you use?
    "Let us thank God for having called us to His holy faith. It is a great gift, and the number of those who thank God for it is small."
    -- St. Alphonsus de Liguori

    Offline pax

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    « Reply #43 on: December 07, 2011, 12:21:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: MiserereMeiDeus
    Quote from: Santo Subito

    The CCC and the current NO Missal define the Mass as a sacrifice.


    Please substantiate. I read through every bit of the CCC that addresses the Liturgy on the Vatican website just a few days ago and could not find the word sacrifice, nor any mention of any propitiatory function of the NO or even the expiation of sins. Just page after page of syrupy feel good goo and repeated references to something called the "Paschal Mystery." As for the Missal, are you certain, if a reference to a sacrifice even is in there, that it isn't in some non-official filler typical only to the edition you use?


    The new translation will read:

    To you, therefore, most merciful Father,
    we make humble prayer and petition
    through Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord:
    that you accept and bless these gifts, these offerings,
    these holy and unblemished sacrifices,
    which we offer you firstly for your holy catholic Church.
    Be pleased to grant her peace, to guard,
    unite and govern her throughout the whole world,
    together with your servant N. our Pope and N. our Bishop,
    and all those who, holding to the truth,
    hand on the catholic and apostolic faith.


    http://causafinitaest.blogspot.com/2011/03/new-translation-monday-roman-canon-part.html
    Multiculturalism exchanges honest ignorance for the illusion of truth.

    Offline MiserereMeiDeus

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    « Reply #44 on: December 07, 2011, 03:17:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: pax
    Quote from: MiserereMeiDeus
    Quote from: Santo Subito

    The CCC and the current NO Missal define the Mass as a sacrifice.


    Please substantiate. I read through every bit of the CCC that addresses the Liturgy on the Vatican website just a few days ago and could not find the word sacrifice, nor any mention of any propitiatory function of the NO or even the expiation of sins. Just page after page of syrupy feel good goo and repeated references to something called the "Paschal Mystery." As for the Missal, are you certain, if a reference to a sacrifice even is in there, that it isn't in some non-official filler typical only to the edition you use?


    The new translation will read:

    To you, therefore, most merciful Father,
    we make humble prayer and petition
    through Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord:
    that you accept and bless these gifts, these offerings,
    these holy and unblemished sacrifices,
    which we offer you firstly for your holy catholic Church.
    Be pleased to grant her peace, to guard,
    unite and govern her throughout the whole world,
    together with your servant N. our Pope and N. our Bishop,
    and all those who, holding to the truth,
    hand on the catholic and apostolic faith.


    http://causafinitaest.blogspot.com/2011/03/new-translation-monday-roman-canon-part.html


    That's not the CCC, the pill the SSPX has to swallow to gain admittance to the Kingdom of Nauseous Ordo. Can you show me where the CCC defines the Mass as a sacrifice? Furthermore, that text you quote from the Missal calls the gifts of bread and wine sacrifices; it still doesn't refer to Our Lord's immolation on Calvary as a sacrifice, in that particular quote at any rate.
    "Let us thank God for having called us to His holy faith. It is a great gift, and the number of those who thank God for it is small."
    -- St. Alphonsus de Liguori