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Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: s2srea on November 28, 2011, 09:56:27 PM

Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: s2srea on November 28, 2011, 09:56:27 PM
(I hope this wasn't already posted here)


(http://www.cfnews.org/euchmin.png)
The New English Liturgy
A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
By John Vennari
 


The First Sunday at Advent saw the mandatory introduction of the new English translation of the Novus Ordo into the nation’s parishes.

G.K. Chesterton once noted that the closer a man gets to sanity, the closer he gets to orthodoxy, that is, to the Catholic Church.

If the new translation is closer to accuracy of the original Latin, then it is closer to sanity, and thus at least closer, in this aspect, to a Catholic approach. The post-conciliar upheaval is of such colossal dimension that a fix in any of its broken structures can be viewed as a step in the right direction.

That being said, there is still a long way to go to restore sanity to parishes nationwide.

I visited a local parish church this morning for the purpose of observation. I wanted to see and hear the new translation, and take note of parishioners’ reactions.

The old pastor opened by announcing the imposition of the new translation, saying he has seen three responses to it.

The first: those who anticipate it with much enthusiasm. The second: those who view it with grudging acceptance. The third: those who simply ask “will it make the Mass longer?”

It is the first Novus Ordo Mass I’ve seen in a while, as I attend only the Latin Tridentine liturgy, so I came to the parish as an outsider.

One thing was immediately evident: the new translation may have somewhat improved the language, it has done nothing to improve the Novus Ordo atmosphere.

It is still the same New Mass with its banality, slovenliness and limp vestments. It is still a liturgy that appears to be drained of nobility and genuine reverence. It is still a liturgy that transforms the sanctuary into a high-traffic area of concelebrants, Eucharistic ministers, lay-lectors and music ministry.

Some of the most prominent changes in the English are as follows: The response to “The Lord be with you” is no longer, “And also with you”, but “And with your spirit.”

“Through my fault through my fault, through my most grievous fault” is returned to the Confiteor.

The Creed now speaks in the first person “I believe” instead of the communal “We believe”. Our Lord Jesus Christ is now proclaimed in the Creed as “consubstantial with the Father.”

Of course, the most notable change is the accurate words of the Consecration of the wine from what was “for you and for all” to “for you and for many.”

At Communion, the translation now says, “but say the word and my soul shall be healed.”

Outside of the various new translations, it is very much the same Novus Ordo we have seen for the past 40 years. There is no real sense that much has changed. This was especially evident when I saw the three Eucharistic ministers (one male, two female) receive Communion in the hand from the old pastor before they branched out to offer Communion under both kinds to the congregation. Many parishioners received in the hand. Two men walked up the center aisle to Communion side-by-side chatting with each other.

The music was a combination of traditional Advent hymns (O Come, O Come Emmanuel), and new numbers, such as a sappy, dead melody in 6/8 time I had never heard before. From what others tell me, the church I attended is typical of the parishes in Buffalo.

The old pastor closed the Mass by announcing from the podium two pieces of advice for us:

1) “Don’t criticize a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes. That way, he won’t hear your criticism from a mile away, and you’ll at least have his shoes.”

2) “The principle ‘If at first you don’t succeed, try again,’ does not apply to sky diving.”

 Thanks, Father.

“A Striking Departure…”

As for parishioners’ reaction to the new translation, there wasn’t anything worth a mention. It was a sparsely populated morning Mass. I saw only a handful of people using the “Seasonal Missalette Worship Resource” supplied in the pews.

As for the new translation, it is simply a cleaner translation of a Protestantized rite – of the New Mass that was written with the help of six Protestant ministers.

Vatican Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci, in their famous Letter to Pope Paul VI on June 5, 1969, (that accompanied the Critical Study) rightly warned that the New Mass “represents both in its whole and in its details a striking departure from the theology of the Mass as it was formulated by Session XXII of the Council of Trent. The ‘canons’ of the rite definitively fixed at that time erected an insurmountable barrier against any heresy which might attack the integrity of the Mystery.”[1]

The Critical Study of the Roman Theologians on the New Mass, otherwise known as the “Ottaviani Intervention”, spotlighted the many deficiencies inherent in the New Mass: Here are some of the defects they noted:

• A new definition of the Mass, as an ‘assembly’ rather than as a sacrifice offered to God;

• Omissions of elements emphasizing the Catholic teaching that the Mass makes satisfaction for sins, a teaching utter rejected by Protestants;

• The reduction of the priest’s role to a position approximating that of a Protestant Minister;

• Implicit denials of Christ’s Real Presence and the doctrine of Transubstantiation;

• The change of the Consecration from a sacramental action into a mere narrative retelling the story of the Last Supper;

• The fragmentation of the Church’s unity of belief through the introduction of countless options;

• Ambiguous language and equivocation through the rite which compromises the Church’s doctrine.[2]

Further:

• The Study said “It is obvious that the Novus Ordo obsessively emphasizes ‘supper’ and ‘memorial,’ instead of the unbloody renewal of the Sacrifice of the Cross.[3]

• The Study points out that in the New Mass, “the central role of the Real Presence has been suppressed”.[4]

• The Study accurately noted that the New Mass “has much to gladden the heart of the most modernist Protestant”.[5]

Mind you, as I have stressed many times throughout the years, this is a critique of the New Mass in the original Latin – in it’s “purest form” – as it was originally released by Paul VI in 1969. The other abuses and bad translations came later. The Critical Study didn’t even talk about these, though the Study could foresee these aberrations. Thus the new “more accurate” English translation of this New Mass, over which there is now much rejoicing, will serve little to repair the flawed Rite itself.

The New Mass – at its best – is not really a Catholic liturgy. It was not made for the worship of God that is His due, but was constructed for the sake of a modernist ecuмenism that is contrary to reason, and that has always been condemned by the Catholic Church.[6] As early as 1933, St. Maximillion Kolbe rightly declared, “Ecuмenism is the enemy of the Immaculata”[7] – the enemy of Our Lady herself!

The reason I never attend the New Mass has never been the question of validity: is the consecration valid or not? To me, that’s not the issue. The reason I only attend the Tridentine Mass and never the New is because the New Mass is not really a Catholic form of worship. It is at its best – in its purest form – a modernist and Protestantized liturgy constructed to serve the false gods of liberalism and ecuмenism.

And it is the architects of the Mass who have told us this.

Archbishop Annibale Bugnini admitted, “We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be a shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren, that is, for the Protestants.”[8]

Likewise, Journalist Jean Guitton, a close friend and confident of Pope Paul VI, confirmed that its was the direct aim of the Pope to protestantize the liturgy. In a radio interview in the 1990s, Guitton said:

“The intention of Paul VI with regard to what is commonly called the Mass, was to reform the Catholic liturgy in such a way that it should almost coincide with the Protestant liturgy – but was is curious is that Paul VI did that to get as close as possible to the Protestant Lord’s supper… there was with Paul VI an ecuмenical intention to remove, or at least to correct, or at least to relax, what was too catholic, in the traditional sense, and, I repeat, to get the Catholic Mass closer to the Calvinist Mass.”[9]
Thus we better understand why Cardinal Ottaviani and the Roman Theologians say in the Critical Study:

“It is obvious that the New Order of Mass has no intention of presenting the Faith taught by the Council of Trent. But it is to this Faith that the Catholic conscience is bound forever. Thus, the promulgation of the New Order of Mass, the true Catholic is faced with a tragic need to choose.”[10]
Many of us choose to have nothing to do with this New Mass because it is not truly a Catholic form of worship.

After observing the Novus Ordo Mass this morning, I shook off the dead weight of its proceedings and drove directly to attend the Latin Tridentine Mass at Our Lady of the Rosary in South Buffalo.  Here was the sanity, orthodoxy and Catholicity of true worship. Here the true Mass was celebrated, a gift from God for which this day I was especially grateful.

 

 Notes:

[1] The Ottaviani Intervention: Short Critical Study of the New Order of Mass, [Rockford: TAN, 1992], p. 27.

[2] Summery from The Ottaviani Intervention, p. 4.

[3] Ibid., p. 35.

[4] Ibid., p. 40.

[5] Ibid., p. 33.

[6] For a summary of the Catholic Church’s perennial teaching against modern ecuмenism, see the magnificent encyclical of Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos, “On Fostering True Christian Unity”, January 6, 1928.

[7] The mission St. Maximilian entrusted to his Knights of the Immaculata was that of converting the whole world to the Catholic Church. He said, “Only until all schismatics and Protestants profess the Catholic Creed with conviction, when all Jews voluntarily ask for Holy Baptism – only then will the Immaculata have reached its goals.”    “… In other words” Saint Maximilian insisted, “there is no greater enemy of the Immaculata and her Knighthood than today’s ecuмenism, which every Knight must not only fight against, but also neutralize through diametrically opposed action and ultimately destroy. We must realize the goal of the Militia Immaculata as quickly as possible: that is, to conquer the whole world, and every individual soul which exists today or will exist until the end of the world, for the Immaculata, and through her for the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus.” From Rycerz Niopokalenz, 4 (1922), p. 78. And Entry of Diary dated April 23, 1933. Cited from The Immaculata Our Ideal, Father Karl Stehlin [Warsaw: Te Deum, 2005], p.3

[8] L’Osservatore Romano, March 19, 1965.

[9] Quoted from Michael McGrade, “Redemptionis Sacramentum, DOA, RIP”, Christian Order, August, September, 2004 (emphasis added).

[10] The Ottaviani Intervention, p. 53.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: Elizabeth on November 28, 2011, 11:27:36 PM
I love John Vennari, and I am grateful that you posted this.  

It's the Communion in the hand and ladies giving it out which has always caused me sense of genuine terror.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: nadieimportante on November 30, 2011, 04:55:58 PM
Quote
One thing was immediately evident: the new translation may have somewhat improved the language, it has done nothing to improve the Novus Ordo atmosphere. It is still the same New Mass with its banality, slovenliness and limp vestments. It is still a liturgy that appears to be drained of nobility and genuine reverence. It is still a liturgy that transforms the sanctuary into a high-traffic area of concelebrants, Eucharistic ministers, lay-lectors and music ministry.

...There is no real sense that much has changed. This was especially evident when I saw the three Eucharistic ministers (one male, two female) receive Communion in the hand from the old pastor before they branched out to offer Communion under both kinds to the congregation. Many parishioners received in the hand. Two men walked up the center aisle to Communion side-by-side chatting with each other.


I've always said: if the NOM had been done in Latin, facing God, and without all the atmosphere changes (banality, slovenliness, limp vestments, table,  concelebrants, Eucharistic ministers, lay-lectors and music ministry), that no one would have noticed a change to make a big deal about, and there would not be one Latin Mass Trad today.

BUT

that was not the intention of imposing the NOM. The reason was to change the mass into everything that it has been for 40+ years now, and will still be after these minor changes. Thank God, that it is what it is, obviuosly not Catholic, or else there would be no real mass left today. The worse the NO gets the quicker the people of good will, will see.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: St Jude Thaddeus on November 30, 2011, 05:04:29 PM
(http://www.greenpacks.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/lipstickpig.jpg)
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: CathMomof7 on December 01, 2011, 03:45:50 PM
Quote from: St Jude Thaddeus
(http://www.greenpacks.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/lipstickpig.jpg)




 :roll-laugh1: :jumping2: :jester: :laugh2: :laugh1: :roll-laugh1:
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: pax on December 01, 2011, 04:39:13 PM
Quote from: Elizabeth
I love John Vennari, and I am grateful that you posted this.  

It's the Communion in the hand and ladies giving it out which has always caused me sense of genuine terror.


I heartily agree.

And yet the Mass of Pope Paul VI is still a valid Rite despite its heavy Protestantization.

Oh, and don;t forgte the addition of those prayers from a 12th century Jєωιѕн Seder. The Mass of Pope Paul VI is beyond Protestantized.

And yet the Mass of Pope Paul VI is still a valid Rite.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: Roman Catholic on December 01, 2011, 07:38:38 PM
The New Mess is a Pig.

The Vatican Bandits just smeared a little lipstick on it to make it more appealing to the poor animals in the farmyard -- the misled sheep of the novus-ordo-religion. They also have opened the farmgate in an effort to entice other sheep back to the Lipsticked Pig.

The Pig is still an invalid Mess.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: Santo Subito on December 01, 2011, 08:43:37 PM
The article fails to point out that the Mass Ottaviani and Bacci criticized in their study WAS NOT the final promulgated 1969 Missal of Paul VI.  Their study was submitted to the Pope. The Pope actually made some changes based on their study and then issued the Mass of '69. Apparently the CDF did not agree with most of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_of_Paul_VI#Criticism_of_the_revision

Quote
Paul VI asked the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the department of the Roman Curia that Ottaviani had earlier headed, to examine the Short Critical Study. It responded on 12 November 1969 that the docuмent contained many affirmations that were "superficial, exaggerated, inexact, emotional and false".[13] However, some of its observations were taken into account in preparing the definitive version of the new Order of the Mass.

Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: ServusSpiritusSancti on December 01, 2011, 08:59:44 PM
Quote from: Santo Subito
The article fails to point out that the Mass Ottaviani and Bacci criticized in their study WAS NOT the final promulgated 1969 Missal of Paul VI.


It's the Bogus Ordo either way, and the final version still sucked.

And Wikipedia isn't exactly the wisest source to use when attempting to back up your stance, considering anyone can edit it.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: Santo Subito on December 01, 2011, 09:05:16 PM
Quote
I visited a local parish church this morning for the purpose of observation. I wanted to see and hear the new translation, and take note of parishioners’ reactions.


So does this mean it is morally permissible for us to attend "non-Catholic" services for purposes of "observation"?

Quote
It is still the same New Mass with its banality, slovenliness and limp vestments. It is still a liturgy that appears to be drained of nobility and genuine reverence. It is still a liturgy that transforms the sanctuary into a high-traffic area of concelebrants, Eucharistic ministers, lay-lectors and music ministry.


While this is true of many NO Masses, the NO Mass can be said with fiddle-backs, incense, ad orientam, altar rails, male only altar servers, no lay readers or EM's, and Gregorian Chant. Thus his beef is with the optional derivations of his local parish and not the Mass of Paul VI itself.

Quote
1) “Don’t criticize a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes. That way, he won’t hear your criticism from a mile away, and you’ll at least have his shoes.”

2) “The principle ‘If at first you don’t succeed, try again,’ does not apply to sky diving.”

 Thanks, Father.


I admit this was pretty funny.  :laugh1:

Quote
As for the new translation, it is simply a cleaner translation of a Protestantized rite – of the New Mass that was written with the help of six Protestant ministers.


Is there any proof the six Protestant observers had any official decision making role in the Mass?

Quote
The Critical Study of the Roman Theologians on the New Mass, otherwise known as the “Ottaviani Intervention”, spotlighted the many deficiencies inherent in the New Mass: Here are some of the defects they noted:

• A new definition of the Mass, as an ‘assembly’ rather than as a sacrifice offered to God;


The CCC and the current NO Missal define the Mass as a sacrifice.

Quote
• Omissions of elements emphasizing the Catholic teaching that the Mass makes satisfaction for sins, a teaching utter rejected by Protestants;


Which elements?

Quote
• The reduction of the priest’s role to a position approximating that of a Protestant Minister;


Protestant ministers recite words of consecration and confect the Eucharist?

Quote
• Implicit denials of Christ’s Real Presence and the doctrine of Transubstantiation;


Where?

Quote
• The change of the Consecration from a sacramental action into a mere narrative retelling the story of the Last Supper;


The consecration is a sacramental action, doesn't matter that it is within a narrative.

Quote
• The fragmentation of the Church’s unity of belief through the introduction of countless options;


Valid criticism, but doesn't make the Mass evil.

Quote
• Ambiguous language and equivocation through the rite which compromises the Church’s doctrine.[2]


There is less precise language but it does not compromise the Church's doctrine at all as it all must be read in a Catholic sense.

Quote
• The Study said “It is obvious that the Novus Ordo obsessively emphasizes ‘supper’ and ‘memorial,’ instead of the unbloody renewal of the Sacrifice of the Cross.[3]


How so?

Quote
• The Study points out that in the New Mass, “the central role of the Real Presence has been suppressed”.[4]


How so?

Quote
• The Study accurately noted that the New Mass “has much to gladden the heart of the most modernist Protestant”.[5]


Protestants believe the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ is confected at Mass, as the NO says?

Quote
Mind you, as I have stressed many times throughout the years, this is a critique of the New Mass in the original Latin – in it’s “purest form” – as it was originally released by Paul VI in 1969.


Wrong! Vennari needs to check his facts as this is easily shown to be false. The study critiqued the experimental version before the '69 Mass was promulgated.

Quote
The New Mass – at its best – is not really a Catholic liturgy. It was not made for the worship of God that is His due, but was constructed for the sake of a modernist ecuмenism that is contrary to reason, and that has always been condemned by the Catholic Church.


So a Mass given to us and approved by a Pope and the CDF is not a Catholic liturgy? And Mr. Vennari gets the authority to declare this from where? How does he know why it was constructed? The Mass will always be the worship of God. It is impossible for the Catholic Church to approve a non Catholic Rite.

Quote
Archbishop Annibale Bugnini admitted, “We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be a shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren, that is, for the Protestants.”[8]


Why doesn't he ever produce the rest of this docuмent so we can read it in context?

Quote
Likewise, Journalist Jean Guitton, a close friend and confident of Pope Paul VI, confirmed that its was the direct aim of the Pope to protestantize the liturgy. In a radio interview in the 1990s, Guitton said:

“The intention of Paul VI with regard to what is commonly called the Mass, was to reform the Catholic liturgy in such a way that it should almost coincide with the Protestant liturgy – but was is curious is that Paul VI did that to get as close as possible to the Protestant Lord’s supper… there was with Paul VI an ecuмenical intention to remove, or at least to correct, or at least to relax, what was too catholic, in the traditional sense, and, I repeat, to get the Catholic Mass closer to the Calvinist Mass.”[9]


Guitton's opinion.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: Santo Subito on December 01, 2011, 09:07:15 PM
Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
Quote from: Santo Subito
The article fails to point out that the Mass Ottaviani and Bacci criticized in their study WAS NOT the final promulgated 1969 Missal of Paul VI.


It's the Bogus Ordo either way, and the final version still sucked.


Stunning rebuttal.  :rolleyes:

Quote
And Wikipedia isn't exactly the wisest source to use when attempting to back up your stance, considering anyone can edit it.


Anyone can edit it, but they can't manufacture sources. The source is cited and I've heard the exact same thing elsewhere. It is an historical fact. The Critical Study was written before the '69 Mass was promulgated.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: ServusSpiritusSancti on December 01, 2011, 09:23:52 PM
Quote from: Santo Subito
So does this mean it is morally permissible for us to attend "non-Catholic" services for purposes of "observation"?


The NO labels itself Catholic, so it's slightly different scenario I suppose. Though really, you're using a straw-man argument. He never said it was ok to attend non-Catholic services.

Quote
While this is true of many NO Masses, the NO Mass can be said with fiddle-backs, incense, ad orientam, altar rails, male only altar servers, no lay readers or EM's, and Gregorian Chant. Thus his beef is with the optional derivations of his local parish and not the Mass of Paul VI itself.


The "Mass" of Paul VI abolished almost all of those things you have listed.

Quote
I admit this was pretty funny.


First of all I thought the joke was cheesey (typical from the Bogus Ordo anyway), and secondly you aren't supposed to be telling jokes at Mass. It's Church for crying out loud, not a comedy club. The NO has almost completely turned the celebrator into nothing but a stage actor.

Quote
Is there any proof the six Protestant observers had any official decision making role in the Mass?


Yes, there is proof.

Quote
The CCC and the current NO Missal define the Mass as a sacrifice.


The NO represents a meal (the Last Supper to be exact). They can define it as a sacrifice all they want. But everyone touching the Eucharist as if it's a potato chip and drinking from the Chalice isn't exactly the best way to make a sacrifice. It comes off as a meal.

Quote
The consecration is a sacramental action, doesn't matter that it is within a narrative.


So it's fine if Mass is a narrative of the Last Supper when it's supposed to be an un-bloody re-enactment of Christ's Death on the Cross?

Quote
So a Mass given to us and approved by a Pope and the CDF is not a Catholic liturgy? And Mr. Vennari gets the authority to declare this from where? How does he know why it was constructed? The Mass will always be the worship of God. It is impossible for the Catholic Church to approve a non Catholic Rite.


Exactly why, when one looks at this fact, one must either accept Vatican II and the NO or say that Vatican II and its "popes" are frauds. The Church could not possibly approve a sacreligious liturgy such as the NO.

Quote
Why doesn't he ever produce the rest of this docuмent so we can read it in context?


What else is there to read? He means exactly what he says, Santo. The meaning is very clear. Anyone who can't understand doesn't have good reading comprehension. And it's not John Vennari who doesn't produce "the full docuмent" of Bugnini's quote. No one has cited what Bugnini said before or after that, though it hardly matters.

Quote
Guitton's opinion.


Really? A man who was a close friend of his and yet that was just his opinion? If I state a fact about a close friend or family member of mine, one that I know personally, would it make sense to say it's "just my opinion"? Come on Santo. You take drastic measures to defend anything and everything about Vatican II and its "popes".
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: ServusSpiritusSancti on December 01, 2011, 09:26:17 PM
Quote from: Santo Subito
Anyone can edit it, but they can't manufacture sources. The source is cited and I've heard the exact same thing elsewhere. It is an historical fact. The Critical Study was written before the '69 Mass was promulgated.


I'm not denying that Santo, but my point was that in order to become more credible, you need to use more credible sources.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: pax on December 02, 2011, 06:04:31 AM
What makes a Mass valid? What has the Church actually taught in Her official capacity as to what makes a Mass valid?
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: s2srea on December 02, 2011, 07:17:34 AM
Isn't any sacrament required to have Matter, Form and Intent? With all sacraments, apart from baptism, a validly ordained priest is also required.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: s2srea on December 02, 2011, 07:18:31 AM
@Pax- Why would the Church feel the need to change the Mass?
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: pax on December 02, 2011, 07:31:00 AM
Quote from: s2srea
@Pax- Why would the Church feel the need to change the Mass?


The answer to that question is totally irrelevant as to what makes a Mass valid.

You not particularly liking a certain Rite of the Church is not enough to invalidate the Rite.

If the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid then please state the reasons why.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: Roman Catholic on December 02, 2011, 07:43:57 AM
The Case Against The Validity of The Vernacularized "Masses"


[Some have suggested the usefulness of a "digest" of this case, covering only the essential points and those of particular interest, since there are potentially receptive readers who might have neither the time nor the inclination to wade through my lengthier writings. This paper highlights the most important points raised in those previous writings.-- Patrick Henry Omlor, March 1994.]


Necessity of Using The Proper Form


The validity of any Sacrament depends, among other things, upon the use of the proper words by the person administering the Sacrament. In order to bring about any Sacrament the words prescribed by Christ Himself, as found in Holy Scripture or else handed down by Tradition, or in the case of some Sacraments the words determined by the Church, must be diligently and accurately pronounced. These words are known as the form of the Sacrament. Although the Holy Eucharist is sometimes received outside of Mass (for example, Holy Viaticuм), this Sacrament is confected, or brought about, only by a priest while celebrating Mass. As is the case with all Sacraments, the proper matter and form must be used. The Holy Eucharist is twofold in its matter and form; that is, the matter consists of the two substances, bread and wine, and the form consists of two separate sets of words, one spoken in conjunction with each of the two elements of matter.

Concerning the form for the Holy Eucharist there is a most weighty passage contained in Part V of De Defectibus in Celebratione Missarum Occurrentibus, which is a section incorporated in the official rubrics accompanying the Roman Missal. In his Bull Quo Primum (1570) Pope St. Pius V ordered that this Missal be used in the Latin Rite "in perpetuity," and the aforementioned De Defectibus... always appears in the introductory pages of legitimate altar missals. These extremely significant words in Part V of De Defectibus are as follows:

"The words of Consecration, which are the form of this Sacrament, are these: For this is my Body. And: For this is the Chalice of my Blood, of the new and eternal testament: the mystery of faith, which shall be shed for you and for many unto the remission of sins. Now if one were to omit, or to change anything in the form of the consecration of the Body and Blood, and in that very change of the words the [new] wording would fail to mean the same thing, he would not consecrate the Sacrament. If in fact he were to add something that did not change the meaning, it is true he would consecrate, but he would sin most gravely."

This precept begins by setting forth the consecration form in its entirety. It then warns that if anything (aliquid) in this form just defined should be altered in any way whatsoever involving a change in meaning of the originally specified words, then the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist containing the true Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ would not be produced, and hence the priest-celebrant would celebrate no Mass at all. De Defectibus does not single out the introductory words of the form for the wine, "This is the chalice of my blood," and state that if only those words are changed in meaning the consecration is invalid, but the prescription clearly states that the entire form must be recited, conveying its correct meaning, in order for the Sacrament and the Mass to be truly valid.

Catholics were always instructed that the form, the necessary words, for a Sacrament must not be altered, or else the Sacrament is not produced. "In our sacraments," teaches the Catechism of the Council of Trent, "the form is so definite that any, even a casual deviation from it, renders the sacrament null." This same Catechism, in complete agreement with the teaching of De Defectibus, spells out most clearly and forcibly what is the sacramental form for the Consecration of the Wine:

"It must certainly be believed that it consists of the following words: `For this is the Chalice of my Blood, of the new and eternal testament, the mystery of faith, which shall be shed for you and for many unto the remission of sins.'"

And, to repeat the teaching of the Catechism, this form is "so definite that any, even a casual deviation from it, renders the sacrament null."


The ICEL Form Contains Four Flagrant Deviations


In the "All-English Canon" that was first introduced in October of 1967, the ICEL gave the following form for the wine-consecration:

"this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant -- the mystery of faith. This blood is to be shed for you and for all men so that sins may be forgiven."

Since this original "translation" of 1967, the ICEL has meddled with it two more times, so that it now reads:

"This is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven."

The foregoing "form" consists of two sentences, with exactly fifteen words in each sentence. In those thirty words the ICEL deviated four times from the established form set forth in De Defectibus, which is the same form, word for word, that the Authors of the Roman Catechism taught "must certainly be believed" to be the form.

The four flagrant deviations in the ICEL's "sacramental form" are as follows:

[1] The breaking up of the form into two sentences has serious theological implications (see the commentary on pp. 36-37 of Questioning The Validity of McCarthy's Case, which treats of this matter).

[2] The omission of the words, "the mystery of faith." The serious consequences of this omission were discussed at length on pp. 50-64 of The Necessary Signification In The Sacramental Form Of The Holy Eucharist.

[3] The changing of "for you and for many unto the remission of sins" to "for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven." This change is the subject of this present paper.

[4] In the correct form the words following "This is the Chalice of My Blood" -- to wit: "... which shall be shed for you and for many ... etc." -- refer to the word "chalice," not to the word "blood," which shows clearly that the blood as the contents of the chalice, and not only as shed upon the cross (as the Protestants and other heretics claim) is Christ's true Blood : a clear affirmation of the doctrines of transubstantiation and the Real Presence.

In the ICEL's form, after the first words, "This is the cup of my blood," the words "the blood" are then repeated: "This is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed ... etc." This subtle change, the insertion of those words "the blood," makes the remaining words of their bogus, invalid form refer to "the blood" rather than to "the chalice" -- i.e., the contents of the chalice after the Consecration -- thus removing this additional proof of transubstantiation and the Real Presence, which the Church has from St. Luke's Gospel (Lk. 22:20), and which has always stood as a stumbling block for the heretics. (A more detailed discussion of all the foregoing is to be found on pp. 7-8 of Monsignor McCarthy Again! Another Fiasco!).


Must Be Conformed to the Same Definite Type


Elsewhere I have stressed that the precise form of words used in the Latin Rite is not necessarily required for validity in all (or even any) of the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church. It was in § 145 of Questioning The Validity of the Masses Using the New, All-English Canon that I first quoted these words from pp. 44-45 of the Vindication of the Bull `Apostolicae Curae', authored by the official interpreters of the mind of Pope Leo in Apostolicae Curae, namely, the Catholic hierarchy of the Province of Westminster under the leadership of Cardinal Vaughan:

"But you are also mistaken in thinking that matters have been left by Our Lord in so much uncertainty, and that there is no one definite form which has prevailed in the Catholic Church both in the East and in the West. If, indeed, you mean merely that no identical form of words has always and everywhere been in use, but that, on the contrary, several different forms of words have been recognized by the Holy See as sufficient, you say what all will admit, and the Bull nowhere denies. ... The Bull, however...is requiring, not that the form should always consist of the same words, but that it should always be conformed to the same definite type."

In six of the eight Eastern Rite wine-consecration forms that are currently in use, as well as in many ancient Eastern liturgies no longer in use, we do not find the words, "This is the Chalice of My Blood ... etc." at all, but only "This is My Blood ... etc." Moreover, in only three of these eight current Eastern Rite forms do we find the words, "the mystery of faith." But all those words that are essential in our Latin Rite are not necessarily essential in other rites. I demonstrated this at length on pp. 50-64 of The Necessary Signification...

The important point to be noted is that in those Eastern Rites that use the form "This is My Blood ... etc." rather than "This is the Chalice of My Blood ... etc." -- and, moreover, do not have the words "the mystery of faith" in the form -- absolutely nothing has ever been removed nor changed. The Eastern Catholics of these various rites use those various forms (which are in some cases even worded slightly differently from one another) which, by the command of Our Lord, were handed down to them by those Apostles who proselytized in the East.

Whereas other different Apostles, the ones who first brought Catholicism to the West, handed down the form that is used today in the Latin Church (not in the "Novus Ordo" Robber Church, of course, we are speaking of Catholics) and which, in fact, has always been used. Pope Innocent III (letter cuм Marthae Circa, Nov. 29, 1202; Denz., nos. 414-415) made this point clear when he taught authoritatively: "Therefore we believe that the form of words, as is found in the Canon, the Apostles received from Christ, and their successors from them."

Consequently, we can see the vital importance of this admonition: "In adhering rigidly to the rite handed down to us we can always feel secure; whereas if we omit or change anything, we may perhaps be abandoning just that element which is essential" (A Vindication of The Bull `Apostolicae Curae', p. 42).

When the Authors of the Roman Catechism teach that any deviation from the form of a sacrament, however casual it might be, invalidates the sacrament, they are speaking as catholic doctors; that is, on truths that apply universally. Hence this teaching regarding the fatal consequences of deviating from established sacramental forms applies not only in our Latin Rite, but, needless to say, to the forms used by the Eastern rites. Thus any deviation from the forms handed down in those rites would similarly invalidate their sacraments. The fact that the precise forms of words differ in the various rites has no bearing whatever on the truth or applicability of what the Catechism has laid down.


Sufficiency Aspect vis-à-vis Efficacy Aspect


In order to comprehend clearly that the ICEL's "form" involves a basic change in the theological meaning of the ancient and proper form, it is necessary to consider two distinct aspects of the Passion and Death of Our Divine Lord. The first aspect is that of sufficiency; that is, for what and for whom did Christ's Passion suffice? The second aspect is that of efficacy; that is, for what and for whom is Christ's Passion effective or efficacious?

The distinction between these two aspects was stated in one brief sentence of the Council of Trent: "But, though He died for all, yet not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only unto whom the merit of His Passion is communicated" (Session VI, "Decree concerning Justification," Chap. 3).

Many theologians, including St. Thomas Aquinas (Summa Th., III, q. 78, art. 3, ad 8 and Scriptum Super Lib. IV Sententiarum, dist. 8, q. 2, art. 2, q. 3 ad 7), the Authors of the Catechism of the Council of Trent, also known as the Roman Catechism (part II, chap. IV, § XXIV), St. Alphonsus (Treatise on the Holy Eucharist, p. 44), Pope Innocent III (De Sacro Altaris Mysterio, book IV, chap. XLI), and Pope Benedict XIV (De Sacrosancto Missae Sacrificio, book II, chap. XV, § 11) have expounded this distinction between the sufficiency aspect and the efficacy aspect of Our Lord's Passion and Death. In the course of their explanations of "sufficiency vs. efficacy" they have all taught that the correct theological meaning in the wine-consecration of the words "pro multis" is "for many" and not "for all." This is the very heart of our argument. It will suffice here to examine two of these explanations.

First, St, Alphonsus: "The words pro vobis et pro multis (`For you and for many') are used to distinguish the virtue of the blood of Christ from its fruits; for the blood of our Saviour is of sufficient value to save all men, but its fruits are applicable only to a certain number and not to all, and this is their own fault. Or, as the theologians say, this precious blood is (in itself) sufficiently (sufficienter) able to save all men, but (on our part) effectually (efficaciter) it does not save all -- it saves only those who co-operate with grace. This is the explanation of St. Thomas, as quoted by Benedict XIV."

Second, the Roman Catechism: "For if we look at the vertue of it, it must be confess'd, that our Savior shed his Blood for the salvation of all men. But if we look at the fruit which men gather from thence, we may easily understand that it comes not to all to advantage, but only to some. When therefore he said, `For you,' he signifi'd either them that were then present, or those whom he had chosen out of the Jєωιѕн people, such as were his Disciples, except Judas, with whom he spake. But when he added, `For many,' he would have the rest that were elected, either Jews or Gentiles, to be understood."

Continuing, the Catechism explicitly singles out the ICEL's false substitution "for all" in the wine-consecration form as being contrary to "the design of the discourse"; that is, contrary to the Mind of Christ, when in instituting the Holy Sacrament He expressly said "for many," meaning not all men, but only the members of His Church, the Mystical Body, the elect, who are the only ones who actually benefit ultimately from the "fruits of the Passion," namely, the "Fruit of Salvation":

"Rightly therefore was it done, that it was not said `for all,' seeing that in this place the design of the discourse extends only to the fruits of the Passion, which brought the Fruit of Salvation only to the Elect."

The foregoing excerpts are from p. 207 of the first translation of the Roman Catechism into English, published at London in 1687, under the Catholic King James II. Hence the archaic expressions and spelling (e.g. "vertue").

The ecuмenical Council of Florence (1438-1445) taught:

"But since in the above written decree of the Armenians there was not set forth the form of words, which in the consecration of the body and blood of the Lord the holy Roman Church, confirmed by the teaching and authority of the Apostles Peter and Paul, has always been accustomed to use, we have deemed that it should be inserted here. In the consecration of the Body the Church uses this form of words: `For this is my body'; and for the consecration of the Blood: `For this is the chalice of my blood, of the new and eternal testament, the mystery of faith, which shall be shed for you and for many unto the remission of sins.'" (From "Decree for the Greeks and Armenians").


The Significance of the Aforesaid Changes in Theological Meaning


In addition to these arguments from authority it is expedient here to explain briefly why, from the standpoint of sacramental theology, this mutilated ICEL form, "shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven," necessarily invalidates the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist and, perforce, the "Masses" in which it is used. This is now to be explained in eight steps.

[1] Apostolicae Curae: Pope Leo XIII in his Bull Apostolicae Curae (1896) authoritatively laid down the principle of sacramental theology of which we speak. He taught that in any Sacrament the essential sacramental grace proper to that Sacrament must be explicitly signified in the form of words used in bringing about the Sacrament:

"All know that the Sacraments of the New Law, as sensible and efficient signs of invisible grace, must both signify the grace which they effect, and effect the grace which they signify. Although the signification ought to be found in the whole essential rite -- that is to say, in the matter and in the form -- yet it pertains chiefly to the form; since the matter is a part which is not determined by itself, but which is determined by the form." And also: "That form consequently cannot be apt or sufficient for a Sacrament which omits what it must essentially signify." (Sec. 8). [I emphasized the words "the grace" above: this is a vital point.]

[2] Grace of the Sacrament: Here the Sovereign Pontiff Leo XIII is teaching infallibly that the forms of the various Sacraments ("it still pertains chiefly to the form") must signify the grace which they effect. That is, the "grace proper" to a Sacrament, which is the sacramental grace of that Sacrament, which is also known as "the effect" of the Sacrament, and, moreover is also known as "the reality" of the Sacrament, which in Latin is the "res sacramenti" or the "res tantum." All these expressions -- grace proper, sacramental grace, the effect, the reality, "res sacramenti," "res tantum" -- mean exactly the same thing. It is this grace that the words of the sacramental form must signify, as Pope Leo XIII so clearly teaches.

[3] Unambiguous signification required: On p. 31 of the aforementioned Vindication of the Bull `Apostolicae Curae' we find the following reinforcement of the teaching that the form of a Sacrament must signify the grace of the Sacrament, which must not be confused with grace in general or other kinds of grace:

"Moreover, the signification must not be ambiguous, but so far definite as to discriminate the grace effected from graces of a different kind; as, for instance, the graces of other Sacraments." And on p. 40: "The definite signification, as has already been explained, must be found in the essential part [emphasis in the original text], in the matter and form morally united together."

[4] The `Grace Proper' of the Holy Eucharist: Now what is this sacramental grace, this grace proper, this effect, this reality, this res sacramenti of the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist? What is this grace that must be so definitely signified in the sacramental form that it must not be confused with graces of a different kind? As is so well known and docuмented so exhaustively, the res sacramenti or grace proper or special sacramental grace of the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist is the union of the Mystical Body of Christ. And it is this union of the Mystical Body which must be signified somewhere in the sacramental form, that is, in the Words of Consecration. That the res sacramenti of the Holy Eucharist is the union of the Mystical Body is acknowledged by all theologians.

[5] The words of the Consecration that signify this: Now where in the Words of Consecration is this reference to the union of the Mystical Body to be found? Is this signification contained in the mere words, "This is My Body; This is the Chalice of My Blood"? These words signify the True Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ, which become present through transubstantiation, not the Mystical Body, and to claim otherwise or to claim that both Christ's True Body and His Mystical Body are signified by these words would be heretical. Some Protestant theologians have in fact claimed this (see, for example, the reference to Dorner and Loofs on p. 106 of The Necessary Signification...). The words which signify the res sacramenti are found in the final phrase of the Consecration of the Wine: "for you and for many unto the remission of sins."

[6] Proof of the foregoing: "For you and for many unto the remission of sins" are the words of the sacramental form for the Holy Eucharist that provide this vital signification of the res sacramenti, for the words "you" and "many" are the only words of the form that explicitly designate the members of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. Moreover, the final phrase, "unto the remission of sins," signifies the union of the members, as will now be shown.

Now, it is through reception of the Holy Eucharist that we, the members of the Mystical Body in the branch known as the Church Militant, become more closely and firmly united to Jesus Christ -- the Head of the Mystical Body -- and also to one another, and also to our fellow-members in the other two branches; viz., the Church Suffering and the Church Triumphant. The very principle of existence and origin of this aforesaid union is sanctifying grace. Any person living in the state of sanctifying grace is automatically within Christ's Mystical Body.

But since sanctifying grace is the principle of existence and origin of the union of the Mystical Body, which is the res sacramenti of the Holy Eucharist, it must then be acknowledged that the essential and absolute prerequisite -- the sine qua non -- of this union is the remission of sins. It is by means of the Sacrament of Baptism that we first receive sanctifying grace; thus through the remission of original sin and actual sin (in the case of adult baptisms) we first become members of the Mystical Body, as the bull Exultate Deo of Pope Eugene IV teaches: "Holy Baptism, which is the gateway (janua) to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church."

We retain our status as living members of the Mystical Body by remaining in the state of sanctifying grace. A member who has become spiritually dead, through mortal sin, though not severed from the Mystical Body, can be reinstated as a living member and again become a vital part of the union of the Mystical Body only by the remission of his sins, through what St. Jerome calls "the second plank after shipwreck," namely, the Sacrament of Penance.

From all the foregoing it is evident that the remission of sins -- that is, the actual and efficacious remission of sins; or in other words "in remissionem peccatorum" (unto the remission of sins) -- is the necessary prerequisite for: (a) our initial incorporation in the Mystical Body; and (b) the reinstatement as living members, through the Second Plank After Shipwreck, of those who have lost sanctifying grace. Consequently, the remission of sins can be said to cause the union of the members of the Mystical Body.

Hence the final phrase of the form for the Consecration of the Wine in its entirety -- to wit: "for you and for many unto the remission of sins" -- comprises the essential words signifying the grace of the Sacrament -- to wit: the union of the Mystical Body. The words "you" and "many" designate the members; the words "unto the remission of sins" signify the cause underlying the principle of existence of their unity, without which there is no vital unity, namely, their living in the state of sanctifying grace.

[7] ICEL form signifies falsely: The ICEL's corrupted form, "for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven," by saying "all" fails to designate the members of the Mystical Body since not all men are members of the Mystical Body, but only "many" are members. Moreover, the words, "so that sins may be forgiven," do not signify the efficacious remission of sins, since they do not convey the idea that any sins actually are or have been remitted, but only "may be forgiven."


Three Examples to Illustrate and Prove All the Foregoing Points


Investigating the eight consecration forms currently in use in the Oriental rites reveals that all, without exception, contain the words, "for you and for many" and "unto the remission of sins," thereby having the necessary signification of the union of the Mystical Body. But let me give three illustrations (from among many that could be cited) of ancient liturgies which are no longer in use, which do not contain the precise words, "for you and for many unto the remission of sins," but nevertheless have words that are equivalent in meaning and thus "conform to the same definite type."

(_) The Syrian Liturgy of St. Cyril: "This is my blood, which seals the Testament of my death; for it prepares you and the many faithful for eternal life." ("Hic est sanguis meus, qui obsignat Testamentum mortis meae; vos autem, et multos fideles praeparat ad vitam aeternam.") Since this form must be of the same definite type as our Latin Rite form, the words "the many faithful" (multos fideles) demolish the argument advanced by some of our opponents that the words "pro multis" should be interpreted as meaning not just many, but all men. For fideles is a technical term used by the Catholic Church in order exclusively to denote her members. And it would be absurd to claim that the meaning conveyed by the sacramental form in one liturgy would be different from that of another liturgy. That is, in the present-day vernacularized liturgies "multis" means "all men," while in this ancient liturgy "multos" modified by "fideles" clearly means Catholics only!

Moreover, not only does "you and the many faithful," contain the necessary signification of the members of the Mystical Body, the words, "prepares ... for eternal life," beautifully signify their union, for The Church Triumphant consummates, nay is, this union. It is also seen from this example that the words "unto the remission of sins" are not per se essential words; they are essential only in those rites where they appear and fill the role of signifying the union of the Mystical Body.

(_) The Syrian Liturgy of St. James: "This is my blood of the New Testament, which is shed for you and for the many faithful (pro multis fidelibus effunditur), and is given unto the remission of sins and eternal life."

(_) The Syrian Liturgy of Moses Bar-Cephas: "This is my blood, which is shed and given for you and for those who believe in me, preparing for eternal life all those who receive it." Again a form that conforms to the same definite type, inasmuch as "those who believe in me" surely is equivalent to "many," and cannot conceivably mean "all men."

[8] GRACE is that which must be signified: Some have argued that since the words, "This is My Body; This is the Chalice of My Blood," signify the True Body and Blood of Christ, Whose Real Presence is brought about through the Consecration, and since Christ is true God, the Author of all grace, these words alone suffice to satisfy Pope Leo's teaching that the form must signify the grace of the Sacrament! This argument is fatuous to the extreme, and it is on a par with arguing that in the form for Baptism the only essential words are, "in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," because these words signify the Holy Trinity, God, and since God is the Author of all grace these words automatically signify the grace of the Sacrament! God is the Author of all grace, but He is not grace; least of all is He the sacramental grace (the res sacramenti) of the Holy Eucharist, the union of the Mystical Body, which is what the sacramental form must signify.



THE END
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: s2srea on December 02, 2011, 07:44:26 AM
You constantly avoid questions Pax.

Is it a crime to ask a related question? Even the original piece doesn't say the mass is invalid. Did I do wrong in answering an irrelevant question?
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: pax on December 02, 2011, 08:07:16 AM
Quote from: s2srea
You constantly avoid questions Pax.

Is it a crime to ask a related question? Even the original piece doesn't say the mass is invalid. Did I do wrong in answering an irrelevant question?


It is no crime to ask a related question after the original question has been answered. No, you did not do wrong in not answering an irrelevant question, but my question was not irrelevant, as these next questions will indeed demonstrate.

Do you hold the Mass of Pope Paul VI to be valid?

Do you occasionally serve at the Mass of Pope Paul VI?

Do you know what an act of schism is?
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: s2srea on December 02, 2011, 08:22:08 AM
Quote from: pax
...but my question was not irrelevant


Nor was mine  :wink:

Quote
Do you hold the Mass of Pope Paul VI to be valid?


I'm not a theologian, I don't know; I don't care either, because its not Catholic.

Quote
Do you occasionally serve at the Mass of Pope Paul VI?


Never- I'm a Roman Catholic.

Quote
Do you know what an act of schism is?


Yes. Do you know what Epikeia is?
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: pax on December 02, 2011, 08:38:44 AM
Quote from: s2srea
Quote from: pax
Do you hold the Mass of Pope Paul VI to be valid?


I'm not a theologian, I don't know; I don't care either, because its not Catholic.


translation: no, you do not hold the Mass of Pope Paul VI to be valid.

Quote
Quote
Do you occasionally serve at the Mass of Pope Paul VI?


Never- I'm a Roman Catholic.


Um.....no. Roman Catholics are subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Quote
Quote
Do you know what an act of schism is?


Yes. Do you know what Epikeia is?


Had to look it up, so, yes, now I do.

Do you not see yourself as in schism?
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: ServusSpiritusSancti on December 02, 2011, 12:12:10 PM
Sorry, but Paul VI was not a true Pope. As for the NO, I think it is valid as long as the priest offering it has the proper intentions. But as Archbishop LeFebvre said, validity should not be one's prerequisite. The NO isn't Catholic either way. A Mass established by Freemasons to please the Protestants cannot be Catholic.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: s2srea on December 02, 2011, 12:19:10 PM
Quote from: pax
translation: no, you do not hold the Mass of Pope Paul VI to be valid.


You're really a funny fellow. I didn't say that. I'm just pointing out its not a Catholic Rite, but a protestant one. The Eastern Schismatics aren't catholic, but they are valid; Lutherans- not so much. Again, I'm not a theologian. I'm an agnostic in this matter, since I've not studied enough to tell. I won't say "yes" or "no", and pretend, to make myself feel better.

Quote
Um.....no. Roman Catholics are subject to the Roman Pontiff.


Insofar as he remains true to the Faith, right?

Do you think its plausible for the Roman Pontiff to error?

Quote
Do you not see yourself as in schism?


Funny question, what do you think?
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: LordPhan on December 02, 2011, 12:26:19 PM
Quote from: pax
Quote from: s2srea
@Pax- Why would the Church feel the need to change the Mass?


The answer to that question is totally irrelevant as to what makes a Mass valid.

You not particularly liking a certain Rite of the Church is not enough to invalidate the Rite.

If the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid then please state the reasons why.


The Russian Schismatic Mass has always been held as Valid but Illicit, it is Valid(It is a Mass) but it is illicit, sinful to attend.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: pax on December 02, 2011, 05:20:58 PM
Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
Sorry, but Paul VI was not a true Pope. As for the NO, I think it is valid.


You contradict yourself. Only a true Pope can promulgate a new Rite of the Church. A Rite promulgated by an anti-Pope would be neither valid nor licit.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: pax on December 02, 2011, 05:22:16 PM
Quote from: s2srea
Quote from: pax
Do you not see yourself as in schism?


Funny question, what do you think?


Schism is defined as refusing communion with the legitimate subjects of the Roman Pontiff.

So, yes, you are in schism.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: pax on December 02, 2011, 05:24:22 PM
Quote from: LordPhan
Quote from: pax
Quote from: s2srea
@Pax- Why would the Church feel the need to change the Mass?


The answer to that question is totally irrelevant as to what makes a Mass valid.

You not particularly liking a certain Rite of the Church is not enough to invalidate the Rite.

If the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid then please state the reasons why.


The Russian Schismatic Mass has always been held as Valid but Illicit, it is Valid(It is a Mass) but it is illicit, sinful to attend.


The Russian Mass originally had the approval of the then reigning Pontiff. That is what makes it valid. It is illicit because the Russian Orthodox are in schism.

What part of Unam Sanctam do you not understand?
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: Roman Catholic on December 03, 2011, 09:55:05 AM
Hey Pax you wrote:

If the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid then please state the reasons why.

Did you miss the following, or is it too long for your attention span?...

The Case Against The Validity of The Vernacularized "Masses"


[Some have suggested the usefulness of a "digest" of this case, covering only the essential points and those of particular interest, since there are potentially receptive readers who might have neither the time nor the inclination to wade through my lengthier writings. This paper highlights the most important points raised in those previous writings.-- Patrick Henry Omlor, March 1994.]


Necessity of Using The Proper Form


The validity of any Sacrament depends, among other things, upon the use of the proper words by the person administering the Sacrament. In order to bring about any Sacrament the words prescribed by Christ Himself, as found in Holy Scripture or else handed down by Tradition, or in the case of some Sacraments the words determined by the Church, must be diligently and accurately pronounced. These words are known as the form of the Sacrament. Although the Holy Eucharist is sometimes received outside of Mass (for example, Holy Viaticuм), this Sacrament is confected, or brought about, only by a priest while celebrating Mass. As is the case with all Sacraments, the proper matter and form must be used. The Holy Eucharist is twofold in its matter and form; that is, the matter consists of the two substances, bread and wine, and the form consists of two separate sets of words, one spoken in conjunction with each of the two elements of matter.

Concerning the form for the Holy Eucharist there is a most weighty passage contained in Part V of De Defectibus in Celebratione Missarum Occurrentibus, which is a section incorporated in the official rubrics accompanying the Roman Missal. In his Bull Quo Primum (1570) Pope St. Pius V ordered that this Missal be used in the Latin Rite "in perpetuity," and the aforementioned De Defectibus... always appears in the introductory pages of legitimate altar missals. These extremely significant words in Part V of De Defectibus are as follows:

"The words of Consecration, which are the form of this Sacrament, are these: For this is my Body. And: For this is the Chalice of my Blood, of the new and eternal testament: the mystery of faith, which shall be shed for you and for many unto the remission of sins. Now if one were to omit, or to change anything in the form of the consecration of the Body and Blood, and in that very change of the words the [new] wording would fail to mean the same thing, he would not consecrate the Sacrament. If in fact he were to add something that did not change the meaning, it is true he would consecrate, but he would sin most gravely."

This precept begins by setting forth the consecration form in its entirety. It then warns that if anything (aliquid) in this form just defined should be altered in any way whatsoever involving a change in meaning of the originally specified words, then the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist containing the true Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ would not be produced, and hence the priest-celebrant would celebrate no Mass at all. De Defectibus does not single out the introductory words of the form for the wine, "This is the chalice of my blood," and state that if only those words are changed in meaning the consecration is invalid, but the prescription clearly states that the entire form must be recited, conveying its correct meaning, in order for the Sacrament and the Mass to be truly valid.

Catholics were always instructed that the form, the necessary words, for a Sacrament must not be altered, or else the Sacrament is not produced. "In our sacraments," teaches the Catechism of the Council of Trent, "the form is so definite that any, even a casual deviation from it, renders the sacrament null." This same Catechism, in complete agreement with the teaching of De Defectibus, spells out most clearly and forcibly what is the sacramental form for the Consecration of the Wine:

"It must certainly be believed that it consists of the following words: `For this is the Chalice of my Blood, of the new and eternal testament, the mystery of faith, which shall be shed for you and for many unto the remission of sins.'"

And, to repeat the teaching of the Catechism, this form is "so definite that any, even a casual deviation from it, renders the sacrament null."


The ICEL Form Contains Four Flagrant Deviations


In the "All-English Canon" that was first introduced in October of 1967, the ICEL gave the following form for the wine-consecration:

"this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant -- the mystery of faith. This blood is to be shed for you and for all men so that sins may be forgiven."

Since this original "translation" of 1967, the ICEL has meddled with it two more times, so that it now reads:

"This is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven."

The foregoing "form" consists of two sentences, with exactly fifteen words in each sentence. In those thirty words the ICEL deviated four times from the established form set forth in De Defectibus, which is the same form, word for word, that the Authors of the Roman Catechism taught "must certainly be believed" to be the form.

The four flagrant deviations in the ICEL's "sacramental form" are as follows:

[1] The breaking up of the form into two sentences has serious theological implications (see the commentary on pp. 36-37 of Questioning The Validity of McCarthy's Case, which treats of this matter).

[2] The omission of the words, "the mystery of faith." The serious consequences of this omission were discussed at length on pp. 50-64 of The Necessary Signification In The Sacramental Form Of The Holy Eucharist.

[3] The changing of "for you and for many unto the remission of sins" to "for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven." This change is the subject of this present paper.

[4] In the correct form the words following "This is the Chalice of My Blood" -- to wit: "... which shall be shed for you and for many ... etc." -- refer to the word "chalice," not to the word "blood," which shows clearly that the blood as the contents of the chalice, and not only as shed upon the cross (as the Protestants and other heretics claim) is Christ's true Blood : a clear affirmation of the doctrines of transubstantiation and the Real Presence.

In the ICEL's form, after the first words, "This is the cup of my blood," the words "the blood" are then repeated: "This is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed ... etc." This subtle change, the insertion of those words "the blood," makes the remaining words of their bogus, invalid form refer to "the blood" rather than to "the chalice" -- i.e., the contents of the chalice after the Consecration -- thus removing this additional proof of transubstantiation and the Real Presence, which the Church has from St. Luke's Gospel (Lk. 22:20), and which has always stood as a stumbling block for the heretics. (A more detailed discussion of all the foregoing is to be found on pp. 7-8 of Monsignor McCarthy Again! Another Fiasco!).


Must Be Conformed to the Same Definite Type


Elsewhere I have stressed that the precise form of words used in the Latin Rite is not necessarily required for validity in all (or even any) of the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church. It was in § 145 of Questioning The Validity of the Masses Using the New, All-English Canon that I first quoted these words from pp. 44-45 of the Vindication of the Bull `Apostolicae Curae', authored by the official interpreters of the mind of Pope Leo in Apostolicae Curae, namely, the Catholic hierarchy of the Province of Westminster under the leadership of Cardinal Vaughan:

"But you are also mistaken in thinking that matters have been left by Our Lord in so much uncertainty, and that there is no one definite form which has prevailed in the Catholic Church both in the East and in the West. If, indeed, you mean merely that no identical form of words has always and everywhere been in use, but that, on the contrary, several different forms of words have been recognized by the Holy See as sufficient, you say what all will admit, and the Bull nowhere denies. ... The Bull, however...is requiring, not that the form should always consist of the same words, but that it should always be conformed to the same definite type."

In six of the eight Eastern Rite wine-consecration forms that are currently in use, as well as in many ancient Eastern liturgies no longer in use, we do not find the words, "This is the Chalice of My Blood ... etc." at all, but only "This is My Blood ... etc." Moreover, in only three of these eight current Eastern Rite forms do we find the words, "the mystery of faith." But all those words that are essential in our Latin Rite are not necessarily essential in other rites. I demonstrated this at length on pp. 50-64 of The Necessary Signification...

The important point to be noted is that in those Eastern Rites that use the form "This is My Blood ... etc." rather than "This is the Chalice of My Blood ... etc." -- and, moreover, do not have the words "the mystery of faith" in the form -- absolutely nothing has ever been removed nor changed. The Eastern Catholics of these various rites use those various forms (which are in some cases even worded slightly differently from one another) which, by the command of Our Lord, were handed down to them by those Apostles who proselytized in the East.

Whereas other different Apostles, the ones who first brought Catholicism to the West, handed down the form that is used today in the Latin Church (not in the "Novus Ordo" Robber Church, of course, we are speaking of Catholics) and which, in fact, has always been used. Pope Innocent III (letter cuм Marthae Circa, Nov. 29, 1202; Denz., nos. 414-415) made this point clear when he taught authoritatively: "Therefore we believe that the form of words, as is found in the Canon, the Apostles received from Christ, and their successors from them."

Consequently, we can see the vital importance of this admonition: "In adhering rigidly to the rite handed down to us we can always feel secure; whereas if we omit or change anything, we may perhaps be abandoning just that element which is essential" (A Vindication of The Bull `Apostolicae Curae', p. 42).

When the Authors of the Roman Catechism teach that any deviation from the form of a sacrament, however casual it might be, invalidates the sacrament, they are speaking as catholic doctors; that is, on truths that apply universally. Hence this teaching regarding the fatal consequences of deviating from established sacramental forms applies not only in our Latin Rite, but, needless to say, to the forms used by the Eastern rites. Thus any deviation from the forms handed down in those rites would similarly invalidate their sacraments. The fact that the precise forms of words differ in the various rites has no bearing whatever on the truth or applicability of what the Catechism has laid down.


Sufficiency Aspect vis-à-vis Efficacy Aspect


In order to comprehend clearly that the ICEL's "form" involves a basic change in the theological meaning of the ancient and proper form, it is necessary to consider two distinct aspects of the Passion and Death of Our Divine Lord. The first aspect is that of sufficiency; that is, for what and for whom did Christ's Passion suffice? The second aspect is that of efficacy; that is, for what and for whom is Christ's Passion effective or efficacious?

The distinction between these two aspects was stated in one brief sentence of the Council of Trent: "But, though He died for all, yet not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only unto whom the merit of His Passion is communicated" (Session VI, "Decree concerning Justification," Chap. 3).

Many theologians, including St. Thomas Aquinas (Summa Th., III, q. 78, art. 3, ad 8 and Scriptum Super Lib. IV Sententiarum, dist. 8, q. 2, art. 2, q. 3 ad 7), the Authors of the Catechism of the Council of Trent, also known as the Roman Catechism (part II, chap. IV, § XXIV), St. Alphonsus (Treatise on the Holy Eucharist, p. 44), Pope Innocent III (De Sacro Altaris Mysterio, book IV, chap. XLI), and Pope Benedict XIV (De Sacrosancto Missae Sacrificio, book II, chap. XV, § 11) have expounded this distinction between the sufficiency aspect and the efficacy aspect of Our Lord's Passion and Death. In the course of their explanations of "sufficiency vs. efficacy" they have all taught that the correct theological meaning in the wine-consecration of the words "pro multis" is "for many" and not "for all." This is the very heart of our argument. It will suffice here to examine two of these explanations.

First, St, Alphonsus: "The words pro vobis et pro multis (`For you and for many') are used to distinguish the virtue of the blood of Christ from its fruits; for the blood of our Saviour is of sufficient value to save all men, but its fruits are applicable only to a certain number and not to all, and this is their own fault. Or, as the theologians say, this precious blood is (in itself) sufficiently (sufficienter) able to save all men, but (on our part) effectually (efficaciter) it does not save all -- it saves only those who co-operate with grace. This is the explanation of St. Thomas, as quoted by Benedict XIV."

Second, the Roman Catechism: "For if we look at the vertue of it, it must be confess'd, that our Savior shed his Blood for the salvation of all men. But if we look at the fruit which men gather from thence, we may easily understand that it comes not to all to advantage, but only to some. When therefore he said, `For you,' he signifi'd either them that were then present, or those whom he had chosen out of the Jєωιѕн people, such as were his Disciples, except Judas, with whom he spake. But when he added, `For many,' he would have the rest that were elected, either Jews or Gentiles, to be understood."

Continuing, the Catechism explicitly singles out the ICEL's false substitution "for all" in the wine-consecration form as being contrary to "the design of the discourse"; that is, contrary to the Mind of Christ, when in instituting the Holy Sacrament He expressly said "for many," meaning not all men, but only the members of His Church, the Mystical Body, the elect, who are the only ones who actually benefit ultimately from the "fruits of the Passion," namely, the "Fruit of Salvation":

"Rightly therefore was it done, that it was not said `for all,' seeing that in this place the design of the discourse extends only to the fruits of the Passion, which brought the Fruit of Salvation only to the Elect."

The foregoing excerpts are from p. 207 of the first translation of the Roman Catechism into English, published at London in 1687, under the Catholic King James II. Hence the archaic expressions and spelling (e.g. "vertue").

The ecuмenical Council of Florence (1438-1445) taught:

"But since in the above written decree of the Armenians there was not set forth the form of words, which in the consecration of the body and blood of the Lord the holy Roman Church, confirmed by the teaching and authority of the Apostles Peter and Paul, has always been accustomed to use, we have deemed that it should be inserted here. In the consecration of the Body the Church uses this form of words: `For this is my body'; and for the consecration of the Blood: `For this is the chalice of my blood, of the new and eternal testament, the mystery of faith, which shall be shed for you and for many unto the remission of sins.'" (From "Decree for the Greeks and Armenians").


The Significance of the Aforesaid Changes in Theological Meaning


In addition to these arguments from authority it is expedient here to explain briefly why, from the standpoint of sacramental theology, this mutilated ICEL form, "shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven," necessarily invalidates the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist and, perforce, the "Masses" in which it is used. This is now to be explained in eight steps.

[1] Apostolicae Curae: Pope Leo XIII in his Bull Apostolicae Curae (1896) authoritatively laid down the principle of sacramental theology of which we speak. He taught that in any Sacrament the essential sacramental grace proper to that Sacrament must be explicitly signified in the form of words used in bringing about the Sacrament:

"All know that the Sacraments of the New Law, as sensible and efficient signs of invisible grace, must both signify the grace which they effect, and effect the grace which they signify. Although the signification ought to be found in the whole essential rite -- that is to say, in the matter and in the form -- yet it pertains chiefly to the form; since the matter is a part which is not determined by itself, but which is determined by the form." And also: "That form consequently cannot be apt or sufficient for a Sacrament which omits what it must essentially signify." (Sec. 8). [I emphasized the words "the grace" above: this is a vital point.]

[2] Grace of the Sacrament: Here the Sovereign Pontiff Leo XIII is teaching infallibly that the forms of the various Sacraments ("it still pertains chiefly to the form") must signify the grace which they effect. That is, the "grace proper" to a Sacrament, which is the sacramental grace of that Sacrament, which is also known as "the effect" of the Sacrament, and, moreover is also known as "the reality" of the Sacrament, which in Latin is the "res sacramenti" or the "res tantum." All these expressions -- grace proper, sacramental grace, the effect, the reality, "res sacramenti," "res tantum" -- mean exactly the same thing. It is this grace that the words of the sacramental form must signify, as Pope Leo XIII so clearly teaches.

[3] Unambiguous signification required: On p. 31 of the aforementioned Vindication of the Bull `Apostolicae Curae' we find the following reinforcement of the teaching that the form of a Sacrament must signify the grace of the Sacrament, which must not be confused with grace in general or other kinds of grace:

"Moreover, the signification must not be ambiguous, but so far definite as to discriminate the grace effected from graces of a different kind; as, for instance, the graces of other Sacraments." And on p. 40: "The definite signification, as has already been explained, must be found in the essential part [emphasis in the original text], in the matter and form morally united together."

[4] The `Grace Proper' of the Holy Eucharist: Now what is this sacramental grace, this grace proper, this effect, this reality, this res sacramenti of the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist? What is this grace that must be so definitely signified in the sacramental form that it must not be confused with graces of a different kind? As is so well known and docuмented so exhaustively, the res sacramenti or grace proper or special sacramental grace of the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist is the union of the Mystical Body of Christ. And it is this union of the Mystical Body which must be signified somewhere in the sacramental form, that is, in the Words of Consecration. That the res sacramenti of the Holy Eucharist is the union of the Mystical Body is acknowledged by all theologians.

[5] The words of the Consecration that signify this: Now where in the Words of Consecration is this reference to the union of the Mystical Body to be found? Is this signification contained in the mere words, "This is My Body; This is the Chalice of My Blood"? These words signify the True Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ, which become present through transubstantiation, not the Mystical Body, and to claim otherwise or to claim that both Christ's True Body and His Mystical Body are signified by these words would be heretical. Some Protestant theologians have in fact claimed this (see, for example, the reference to Dorner and Loofs on p. 106 of The Necessary Signification...). The words which signify the res sacramenti are found in the final phrase of the Consecration of the Wine: "for you and for many unto the remission of sins."

[6] Proof of the foregoing: "For you and for many unto the remission of sins" are the words of the sacramental form for the Holy Eucharist that provide this vital signification of the res sacramenti, for the words "you" and "many" are the only words of the form that explicitly designate the members of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. Moreover, the final phrase, "unto the remission of sins," signifies the union of the members, as will now be shown.

Now, it is through reception of the Holy Eucharist that we, the members of the Mystical Body in the branch known as the Church Militant, become more closely and firmly united to Jesus Christ -- the Head of the Mystical Body -- and also to one another, and also to our fellow-members in the other two branches; viz., the Church Suffering and the Church Triumphant. The very principle of existence and origin of this aforesaid union is sanctifying grace. Any person living in the state of sanctifying grace is automatically within Christ's Mystical Body.

But since sanctifying grace is the principle of existence and origin of the union of the Mystical Body, which is the res sacramenti of the Holy Eucharist, it must then be acknowledged that the essential and absolute prerequisite -- the sine qua non -- of this union is the remission of sins. It is by means of the Sacrament of Baptism that we first receive sanctifying grace; thus through the remission of original sin and actual sin (in the case of adult baptisms) we first become members of the Mystical Body, as the bull Exultate Deo of Pope Eugene IV teaches: "Holy Baptism, which is the gateway (janua) to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church."

We retain our status as living members of the Mystical Body by remaining in the state of sanctifying grace. A member who has become spiritually dead, through mortal sin, though not severed from the Mystical Body, can be reinstated as a living member and again become a vital part of the union of the Mystical Body only by the remission of his sins, through what St. Jerome calls "the second plank after shipwreck," namely, the Sacrament of Penance.

From all the foregoing it is evident that the remission of sins -- that is, the actual and efficacious remission of sins; or in other words "in remissionem peccatorum" (unto the remission of sins) -- is the necessary prerequisite for: (a) our initial incorporation in the Mystical Body; and (b) the reinstatement as living members, through the Second Plank After Shipwreck, of those who have lost sanctifying grace. Consequently, the remission of sins can be said to cause the union of the members of the Mystical Body.

Hence the final phrase of the form for the Consecration of the Wine in its entirety -- to wit: "for you and for many unto the remission of sins" -- comprises the essential words signifying the grace of the Sacrament -- to wit: the union of the Mystical Body. The words "you" and "many" designate the members; the words "unto the remission of sins" signify the cause underlying the principle of existence of their unity, without which there is no vital unity, namely, their living in the state of sanctifying grace.

[7] ICEL form signifies falsely: The ICEL's corrupted form, "for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven," by saying "all" fails to designate the members of the Mystical Body since not all men are members of the Mystical Body, but only "many" are members. Moreover, the words, "so that sins may be forgiven," do not signify the efficacious remission of sins, since they do not convey the idea that any sins actually are or have been remitted, but only "may be forgiven."


Three Examples to Illustrate and Prove All the Foregoing Points


Investigating the eight consecration forms currently in use in the Oriental rites reveals that all, without exception, contain the words, "for you and for many" and "unto the remission of sins," thereby having the necessary signification of the union of the Mystical Body. But let me give three illustrations (from among many that could be cited) of ancient liturgies which are no longer in use, which do not contain the precise words, "for you and for many unto the remission of sins," but nevertheless have words that are equivalent in meaning and thus "conform to the same definite type."

(_) The Syrian Liturgy of St. Cyril: "This is my blood, which seals the Testament of my death; for it prepares you and the many faithful for eternal life." ("Hic est sanguis meus, qui obsignat Testamentum mortis meae; vos autem, et multos fideles praeparat ad vitam aeternam.") Since this form must be of the same definite type as our Latin Rite form, the words "the many faithful" (multos fideles) demolish the argument advanced by some of our opponents that the words "pro multis" should be interpreted as meaning not just many, but all men. For fideles is a technical term used by the Catholic Church in order exclusively to denote her members. And it would be absurd to claim that the meaning conveyed by the sacramental form in one liturgy would be different from that of another liturgy. That is, in the present-day vernacularized liturgies "multis" means "all men," while in this ancient liturgy "multos" modified by "fideles" clearly means Catholics only!

Moreover, not only does "you and the many faithful," contain the necessary signification of the members of the Mystical Body, the words, "prepares ... for eternal life," beautifully signify their union, for The Church Triumphant consummates, nay is, this union. It is also seen from this example that the words "unto the remission of sins" are not per se essential words; they are essential only in those rites where they appear and fill the role of signifying the union of the Mystical Body.

(_) The Syrian Liturgy of St. James: "This is my blood of the New Testament, which is shed for you and for the many faithful (pro multis fidelibus effunditur), and is given unto the remission of sins and eternal life."

(_) The Syrian Liturgy of Moses Bar-Cephas: "This is my blood, which is shed and given for you and for those who believe in me, preparing for eternal life all those who receive it." Again a form that conforms to the same definite type, inasmuch as "those who believe in me" surely is equivalent to "many," and cannot conceivably mean "all men."

[8] GRACE is that which must be signified: Some have argued that since the words, "This is My Body; This is the Chalice of My Blood," signify the True Body and Blood of Christ, Whose Real Presence is brought about through the Consecration, and since Christ is true God, the Author of all grace, these words alone suffice to satisfy Pope Leo's teaching that the form must signify the grace of the Sacrament! This argument is fatuous to the extreme, and it is on a par with arguing that in the form for Baptism the only essential words are, "in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," because these words signify the Holy Trinity, God, and since God is the Author of all grace these words automatically signify the grace of the Sacrament! God is the Author of all grace, but He is not grace; least of all is He the sacramental grace (the res sacramenti) of the Holy Eucharist, the union of the Mystical Body, which is what the sacramental form must signify.



THE END
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: pax on December 03, 2011, 10:05:03 AM
Quote from: Roman Catholic
Hey Pax you wrote:

If the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid then please state the reasons why.

Did you miss the following, or is it too long for your attention span?...


Yes. It is too long for my attention span.

Perhaps you could explain it to me in simpler language.

Thanks.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: AJNC on December 06, 2011, 12:09:10 AM
I recently received this email which has some bearing on this topic, and which I share with you:

From Mumbai, India:

Welcoming the New Revised Roman Missal (T.E. [The Examiner, Mumbai ed.] November 26), Cardinal Oswald Gracias [of Mumbai] tells that it is thrilling that many of the revised texts now go back to 1000 years and beyond, to what was said by St. Francis of Assisi and other saints.

 

The Normative Roman Missal of Paul VI, issued first in Latin in 1969, remains untouched and the revised texts cited by Cardinal Gracias are only from the Ordinary of the Mass, which were common to the predecessor Latin Missals as well, as re-translated “formally” into English.

 

But a novelty in the Paul VI Missal of 1969, which  remains untouched in both the Latin and revised English versions, is the “offertory” or Preparation of the Gifts. Careful research carried out by Craig Heimbichner, a convert and recognized expert on Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and the occult, who is reachable at Catholic Family News, USA, has written: “A modern myth is that this "Jєωιѕн table blessing" has its roots in worship from the time of Ezra. Searching the Bible should reveal that this story is absent from the pages of Holy Writ. Where, then, does it originate? The Jєωιѕн Encyclopedia  (published 1901-1906, consisting of twelve volumes) tells us, in its article on Benedictions, that this story of the origin of "blessings" in Judaism is a "rabbinical tradition" in the тαℓмυd itself, ---in Berakoth 33a,” and he continues later: “And it is from this false religion, premised on the rejection of Jesus, that the replacement of the Offertory was culled.”  

 

Whether the saints cited by Cardinal Oswald Gracias would have used such a missal is indeed questionable.  

 

John Menezes
7 Esperanca, S. Bhagatsingh Road, Mumbai 400 001; Tel: 2202 5249.

 
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: Roman Catholic on December 06, 2011, 04:29:21 AM
Quote from: pax
Quote from: Roman Catholic
Hey Pax you wrote:

If the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid then please state the reasons why.

Did you miss the following, or is it too long for your attention span?...


Yes. It is too long for my attention span.

Perhaps you could explain it to me in simpler language.

Thanks.


No language would be simple enough for you. You have rejected it already.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: pax on December 06, 2011, 07:07:42 AM
Quote from: Roman Catholic
Quote from: pax
Quote from: Roman Catholic
Hey Pax you wrote:

If the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid then please state the reasons why.

Did you miss the following, or is it too long for your attention span?...


Yes. It is too long for my attention span.

Perhaps you could explain it to me in simpler language.

Thanks.


No language would be simple enough for you. You have rejected it already.


True. I reject it for the same reasons I reject dissertations from Protestants. I do, however, accept the critique from Cardinal Ottaviani.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: pax on December 06, 2011, 07:11:09 AM
Quote from: AJNC
I recently received this email which has some bearing on this topic, and which I share with you:

From Mumbai, India:

Welcoming the New Revised Roman Missal (T.E. [The Examiner, Mumbai ed.] November 26), Cardinal Oswald Gracias [of Mumbai] tells that it is thrilling that many of the revised texts now go back to 1000 years and beyond, to what was said by St. Francis of Assisi and other saints.

 

The Normative Roman Missal of Paul VI, issued first in Latin in 1969, remains untouched and the revised texts cited by Cardinal Gracias are only from the Ordinary of the Mass, which were common to the predecessor Latin Missals as well, as re-translated “formally” into English.

 

But a novelty in the Paul VI Missal of 1969, which  remains untouched in both the Latin and revised English versions, is the “offertory” or Preparation of the Gifts. Careful research carried out by Craig Heimbichner, a convert and recognized expert on Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and the occult, who is reachable at Catholic Family News, USA, has written: “A modern myth is that this "Jєωιѕн table blessing" has its roots in worship from the time of Ezra. Searching the Bible should reveal that this story is absent from the pages of Holy Writ. Where, then, does it originate? The Jєωιѕн Encyclopedia  (published 1901-1906, consisting of twelve volumes) tells us, in its article on Benedictions, that this story of the origin of "blessings" in Judaism is a "rabbinical tradition" in the тαℓмυd itself, ---in Berakoth 33a,” and he continues later: “And it is from this false religion, premised on the rejection of Jesus, that the replacement of the Offertory was culled.”  

 

Whether the saints cited by Cardinal Oswald Gracias would have used such a missal is indeed questionable.  

 

John Menezes
7 Esperanca, S. Bhagatsingh Road, Mumbai 400 001; Tel: 2202 5249.

 


That is certainly something has always troubled me. Why the Pope chose to insert a prayer in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that dates back to medieval rabbinical judaism is beyond my ability to comprehend. Nonetheless, I do not see anything in the words of the prayers themselves that are heretical.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: Roman Catholic on December 06, 2011, 07:23:04 PM
Quote from: pax
Quote from: Roman Catholic
Quote from: pax
Quote from: Roman Catholic
Hey Pax you wrote:

If the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid then please state the reasons why.

Did you miss the following, or is it too long for your attention span?...


Yes. It is too long for my attention span.

Perhaps you could explain it to me in simpler language.

Thanks.


No language would be simple enough for you. You have rejected it already.


True. I reject it for the same reasons I reject dissertations from Protestants. I do, however, accept the critique from Cardinal Ottaviani.


Why do waste time and attempt to get others to waste their time by requesting they post things that you know you won't read?
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: pax on December 06, 2011, 09:43:02 PM
Quote from: Roman Catholic
Quote from: pax
Quote from: Roman Catholic
Quote from: pax
Quote from: Roman Catholic
Hey Pax you wrote:

If the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid then please state the reasons why.

Did you miss the following, or is it too long for your attention span?...


Yes. It is too long for my attention span.

Perhaps you could explain it to me in simpler language.

Thanks.


No language would be simple enough for you. You have rejected it already.


True. I reject it for the same reasons I reject dissertations from Protestants. I do, however, accept the critique from Cardinal Ottaviani.


Why do waste time and attempt to get others to waste their time by requesting they post things that you know you won't read?


I never requested that post.

I have asked for the official teaching from the Magisterium.

By the way, do you have the official teaching from the Magisterium on what to do if a Pope teaches heresy?

And when I say "official teaching of the Magisterium" I mean a docuмent ordered promulgated by a reigning Pontiff, not the musing of some theologian, even one so great as Saint Robert Bellarmine.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: Roman Catholic on December 06, 2011, 09:48:51 PM
Quote from: pax
Quote from: Roman Catholic
Quote from: pax
Quote from: Roman Catholic
Quote from: pax
Quote from: Roman Catholic
Hey Pax you wrote:

If the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid then please state the reasons why.

Did you miss the following, or is it too long for your attention span?...


Yes. It is too long for my attention span.

Perhaps you could explain it to me in simpler language.

Thanks.


No language would be simple enough for you. You have rejected it already.


True. I reject it for the same reasons I reject dissertations from Protestants. I do, however, accept the critique from Cardinal Ottaviani.


Why do waste time and attempt to get others to waste their time by requesting they post things that you know you won't read?


I never requested that post.

I have asked for the official teaching from the Magisterium.

By the way, do you have the official teaching from the Magisterium on what to do if a Pope teaches heresy?

And when I say "official teaching of the Magisterium" I mean a docuмent ordered promulgated by a reigning Pontiff, not the musing of some theologian, even one so great as Saint Robert Bellarmine.


You wrote:
If the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid then please state the reasons why.


And then after I posted an article you replied to me:
Perhaps you could explain it to me in simpler language.

You know that you are not open to it, no matter how simply put, as you have already admitted.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: pax on December 07, 2011, 08:00:58 AM
Quote from: Roman Catholic
You wrote:
If the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid then please state the reasons why.


And then after I posted an article you replied to me:
Perhaps you could explain it to me in simpler language.

You know that you are not open to it, no matter how simply put, as you have already admitted.


Forgive me. I took it as a given that in order to invalidate an official Mass some sort of official docuмent would be necessary, and not just the musings of a theologian.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: Roman Catholic on December 07, 2011, 08:06:06 AM
The crteria for validity and invalidity has been laid down by the Church.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: pax on December 07, 2011, 08:07:38 AM
Quote from: Roman Catholic
The crteria for validity and invalidity has been laid down by the Church.


Ok. So cite the docuмent for invalidity and then demonstrate how the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: Roman Catholic on December 07, 2011, 08:12:26 AM
Quote from: pax
Quote from: Roman Catholic
The crteria for validity and invalidity has been laid down by the Church.


Ok. So cite the docuмent for invalidity and then demonstrate how the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid.


You must be joking. You are a time-waster who has already admitted you won't read docuмents.

You have the attention span of a moth - remember?

But if you get ambitious go look up De Defectibus - that would be a start -- if you could get through it. It's pretty short.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: pax on December 07, 2011, 10:33:22 AM
Quote from: Roman Catholic
Quote from: pax
Quote from: Roman Catholic
The crteria for validity and invalidity has been laid down by the Church.


Ok. So cite the docuмent for invalidity and then demonstrate how the Mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid.


You must be joking. You are a time-waster who has already admitted you won't read docuмents.

You have the attention span of a moth - remember?

But if you get ambitious go look up De Defectibus - that would be a start -- if you could get through it. It's pretty short.


Ok. Iread it. Obviously I am not seeing what you are seeing. Please cite the relevant parts.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: MiserereMeiDeus on December 07, 2011, 11:06:28 AM
Quote from: Santo Subito

The CCC and the current NO Missal define the Mass as a sacrifice.


Please substantiate. I read through every bit of the CCC that addresses the Liturgy on the Vatican website just a few days ago and could not find the word sacrifice, nor any mention of any propitiatory function of the NO or even the expiation of sins. Just page after page of syrupy feel good goo and repeated references to something called the "Paschal Mystery." As for the Missal, are you certain, if a reference to a sacrifice even is in there, that it isn't in some non-official filler typical only to the edition you use?
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: pax on December 07, 2011, 12:21:43 PM
Quote from: MiserereMeiDeus
Quote from: Santo Subito

The CCC and the current NO Missal define the Mass as a sacrifice.


Please substantiate. I read through every bit of the CCC that addresses the Liturgy on the Vatican website just a few days ago and could not find the word sacrifice, nor any mention of any propitiatory function of the NO or even the expiation of sins. Just page after page of syrupy feel good goo and repeated references to something called the "Paschal Mystery." As for the Missal, are you certain, if a reference to a sacrifice even is in there, that it isn't in some non-official filler typical only to the edition you use?


The new translation will read:

To you, therefore, most merciful Father,
we make humble prayer and petition
through Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord:
that you accept and bless these gifts, these offerings,
these holy and unblemished sacrifices,
which we offer you firstly for your holy catholic Church.
Be pleased to grant her peace, to guard,
unite and govern her throughout the whole world,
together with your servant N. our Pope and N. our Bishop,
and all those who, holding to the truth,
hand on the catholic and apostolic faith.


http://causafinitaest.blogspot.com/2011/03/new-translation-monday-roman-canon-part.html
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: MiserereMeiDeus on December 07, 2011, 03:17:06 PM
Quote from: pax
Quote from: MiserereMeiDeus
Quote from: Santo Subito

The CCC and the current NO Missal define the Mass as a sacrifice.


Please substantiate. I read through every bit of the CCC that addresses the Liturgy on the Vatican website just a few days ago and could not find the word sacrifice, nor any mention of any propitiatory function of the NO or even the expiation of sins. Just page after page of syrupy feel good goo and repeated references to something called the "Paschal Mystery." As for the Missal, are you certain, if a reference to a sacrifice even is in there, that it isn't in some non-official filler typical only to the edition you use?


The new translation will read:

To you, therefore, most merciful Father,
we make humble prayer and petition
through Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord:
that you accept and bless these gifts, these offerings,
these holy and unblemished sacrifices,
which we offer you firstly for your holy catholic Church.
Be pleased to grant her peace, to guard,
unite and govern her throughout the whole world,
together with your servant N. our Pope and N. our Bishop,
and all those who, holding to the truth,
hand on the catholic and apostolic faith.


http://causafinitaest.blogspot.com/2011/03/new-translation-monday-roman-canon-part.html


That's not the CCC, the pill the SSPX has to swallow to gain admittance to the Kingdom of Nauseous Ordo. Can you show me where the CCC defines the Mass as a sacrifice? Furthermore, that text you quote from the Missal calls the gifts of bread and wine sacrifices; it still doesn't refer to Our Lord's immolation on Calvary as a sacrifice, in that particular quote at any rate.
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: pax on December 07, 2011, 04:25:35 PM
Put down the CCC.

Step away from the CCC.

There.

Feel better?
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: Roman Catholic on December 07, 2011, 07:40:46 PM
1)

Introduction by John Paul I
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved June 25th last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church’s faith and catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition, and the Church’s Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion. ...

Therefore, I ask all the Church’s Pastors and the Christian faithful to receive this catechism... This catechism is given to them that it may be a sure and authentic reference text for teaching catholic doctrine... The Catechism of the Catholic Church, lastly, is offered to every individual who asks us to give an account of the hope that is in us (cf. 1 Pet 3:15) and who wants to know what the Catholic Church believes.

Given October 11, 1992, the thirtieth anniversary of the opening of the Second Vatican Ecuмenical Council, in the fourteenth year of my Pontificate.

2)

Fidei Depositum is the Apostolic constitution of 11 October 1992 by which Pope John Paul II ordered the publication of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

He declared the publication to be "a sure norm for teaching the faith ... a sure and authentic reference text for teaching catholic doctrine and partiularly for preparing local catechisms". It was "meant to encourage and assist in the writing of new local catechisms [both applicable and faithful]" rather than replacing them.

3)

Catechism of the Catholic Church


This second edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church has been revised in accordance with the official Latin text promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1997. It also has been enhanced by the addition of more than 100 pages that feature the following:

* An analytical index translated from the Latin text
* A glossary of terms
* The decree of promulgation of the official Latin text

The first new compendium of Catholic doctrine regarding faith and morals in more than 400 years, the Catechism of the Catholic Church stands, in the words of Pope John Paul II, as "a sure norm for teaching the faith" and an "authentic reference text."



Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: Santo Subito on December 07, 2011, 07:43:52 PM
Quote from: MiserereMeiDeus
Can you show me where the CCC defines the Mass as a sacrifice?


Let's investigate this...

From the CCC...

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a3.htm

Quote
1322 The holy Eucharist completes Christian initiation. Those who have been raised to the dignity of the royal priesthood by Baptism and configured more deeply to Christ by Confirmation participate with the whole community in the Lord's own sacrifice by means of the Eucharist.

1323 "At the Last Supper, on the night he was betrayed, our Savior instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice of his Body and Blood. This he did in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross throughout the ages until he should come again, and so to entrust to his beloved Spouse, the Church, a memorial of his death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a Paschal banquet 'in which Christ is consumed, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us.'"135

II. WHAT IS THIS SACRAMENT CALLED?

The Holy Sacrifice, because it makes present the one sacrifice of Christ the Savior and includes the Church's offering. The terms holy sacrifice of the Mass, "sacrifice of praise," spiritual sacrifice, pure and holy sacrifice are also used,150 since it completes and surpasses all the sacrifices of the Old Covenant.

In the institution narrative, the power of the words and the action of Christ, and the power of the Holy Spirit, make sacramentally present under the species of bread and wine Christ's body and blood, his sacrifice offered on the cross once for all.

1358 We must therefore consider the Eucharist as:

- thanksgiving and praise to the Father;
- the sacrificial memorial of Christ and his Body;
- the presence of Christ by the power of his word and of his Spirit.

1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, she commemorates Christ's Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present.185 "As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which 'Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed' is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out."186

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: "This is my body which is given for you" and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood."187 In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."188

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:

[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.189

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."190
Title: The New English Liturgy- A Cleaner Translation of a Protestantized Rite
Post by: MiserereMeiDeus on December 08, 2011, 10:09:44 AM
Well Mr. Santo, thank you for finding that. Just the other day I read through the section called CELEBRATING THE CHURCH'S LITURGY (Part 2, Chapter 2, Article 1) and was distressed to find it full of what sounded like gobbledygook (that's where the priest is relegated to the role of "Presider," among other things), and was unable to find any reference to the sacramental nature of what we used to call "The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass." I didn't realize that the subject was revisited later in the book in terms which do at least sound Catholic.