Author Topic: Maria Valtorta and her Poem of the Man-God (Read 16587 times)

Nadir · « **Reply #45 on:** March 20, 2014, 04:19:51 PM »

Neil Obstat said:

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St. John asked the person in the visions to appear as Jesus in other ways, as younger, as older, in various situations, and the vision accommodated his requests. That is, his requests were accommodated until he got to one in particular. Do you know what that one was, the one that was different from the others?

Neil, do not hold your breath while you await an answer. Andy will give you a website to refer to or quote again from somewhere or other, but he won't answer your question. I am still waiting for my answer by the way.

Besides, who needs St John of the Cross when you can read MV?

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #46 on:** March 20, 2014, 05:29:22 PM »

Quote from: Nadir

Neil Obstat said:
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St. John asked the person in the visions to appear as Jesus in other ways, as younger, as older, in various situations, and the vision accommodated his requests. That is, his requests were accommodated until he got to one in particular. Do you know what that one was, the one that was different from the others?

Neil, do not hold your breath while you await an answer. Andy will give you a website to refer to or quote again from somewhere or other, but he won't answer your question. I am still waiting for my answer by the way.

Besides, who needs St John of the Cross when you can read MV?

:roll-laugh1:

God bless!

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Neil Obstat · « **Reply #47 on:** March 20, 2014, 05:43:42 PM »

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Quote from: andysloan

You misconstrue my words... besides, there is serious testimony to support its approbation by Pope Pius XlI.

Let's see: Would that be the same Pius XII who hired Annibale Bugnini (whose "name shall live in infamy among those who love the Church’s traditional worship," according to Fr. Z) and stuck him into the new commission for reform of the liturgy? -- That Pius XII?

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Neil Obstat · « **Reply #48 on:** March 20, 2014, 05:55:58 PM »

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Pope Pius XII gave his approbation for Annibale Bugnini as Secretary in the Pope's new Commission for Liturgical Reform, and see how that turned out! If he gave similar approbation for the works of Valtorta, why is it taking so long then, for the damage to turn out like it did with the Newmass? Or ------ is it?

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Neil Obstat · « **Reply #49 on:** March 20, 2014, 06:05:01 PM »

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The errors of Vat.II are like a slow-drip of poison for the faith of Catholics.

Ditto the corrupted bilge scuм of Valtorta.

Bugnini got right to work tearing apart the Mass, and Valtorta settled in for the long haul, corrupting souls like andysloan for example. See how well it worked?

For andy won't pay any attention to constructive criticism. Like any good minion of the devil, what he doesn't want to hear, he just doesn't hear. Those who refuse to see and will not hear, let them be anathema.

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Neil Obstat · « **Reply #50 on:** March 20, 2014, 06:24:16 PM »

Quote from: Nadir

Quote from: andysloan

Christ himself, according to Maria Valtorta (The Poem of the Man-God, vol 5, pp. 947-948), according to the vision and words she received April 27, 1948):

"....
And the purpose of this Work [The Poem] is also to clarify certain points that a number of circuмstances has covered with darkness, and they thus form dark zones in the brightness of the evangelic picture, and points that seem a rupture and are only obscured points, between one episode and another -- indecipherable points -- and the ability to decipher them is the key to correctly understand certain situations that had arisen and certain strong manners that I had to have, so contrasting with My continuous exhortations to forgive, to be meek and humble: a certain rigidity towards obstinate, inconvertible opponents.

You see! What MV is saying here is that Jesus has come to teach that we no longer need the Church to interpret the Holy Bible. Because MV"s "Jesus" is doing it for us.

Is this not rank heresy?

The authoritative teaching of the Church that we do have is that divine revelation was CLOSED with the death of the last Apostle, St. John, and the Apocalypse is the last book of the Bible.

The Church has Scripture and the Church has Apostolic Tradition. Both are of equal authority, but MV is not included in either one of them. Her writings are about as 'authoritative' as a cheap novel or the Daily Mail (in America we say "The Enquirer," because, "Enquiring minds want to know!").

Therefore, to say that Maria Valtorta, or anyone else, can come along and "clarify certain points" or "fill in" the "dark zones" or "points that seem a rupture" or "indecipherable points" or whatever you want to call them, is therefore, rank heresy. Yes.

We should all be compassionate with poor andysloan, who is a pitiful, hapless victim of this tabloid theology, and his delusion is a consequence of the Church's incapacity of late to put tabloid theology like that into its proper place.

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Neil Obstat · « **Reply #51 on:** March 20, 2014, 06:44:30 PM »

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Quote from: andysloan

To Nadir,
[Your] response was uncharitable. You know I sincerely subscribe to Maria Valtorta's revelations

That explains a lot. Now I understand.

I have had friends who I couldn't quite figure out until I discovered they were Medjugorje fans.
Then I 'got it'. All the parts suddenly fit together.

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but you respond with sarcasm, Because [sic] you don't accept it, then you express derision. And also it is not "just her minders" that endorse the works, as the websites I posted earlier in the thread testify. Thus neither was your question polite or accurate.

Is that not true? As regards your assertion of "almost pornographic revelations", I would like to see an example that could fit this classification.

What good would more examples do? You have already ignored them.

You're just looking for more opportunities, to make excuses for them, or else, to jump topic like a protestant does. What's the use?

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However, because our present society has so lost innocence, I can understand some may recoil from some interactions,

Note: "Interactions" = deceptions of the devil.

If St. John of the Cross was deceived by the devil in visions, why would we not also be deceived?

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yet as St Paul says: 1 Corinthians 16:20
"All the brethren salute you. Salute one another with a holy kiss."

St. Paul also said, "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema" (Gal. i. 8).

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Where do we see this now? Not just the kiss, but a holy one!!!

God bless you? [sic]

(andysloan put a question mark after "God bless you." Since he hasn't retracted that as a typo, he must have meant it that way.)

The "holy kiss" St. Paul refers to is an ancient custom that is even part of the CTLM High Mass, the "kiss of peace." In the Roman Rite, only the celebrant and the deacon and sub-deacon do this, but in the Eastern Rites, the entire congregation gets involved. This Eastern practice was the basis for the "sign of peace" being introduced in the NovusOrdo Newmass, right after the Pater Noster. But it had not been part of the Roman Rite before Vat.II.

"Where do we see this now?"

The "sign of peace" in the NovusOrdo Newmass has degenerated into something that is anything but 'holy'.

Remember that the Roman Empire was destroyed because of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ corruption, just as Sodom and Gomorrah were, albeit more spectacularly.

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Neil Obstat · « **Reply #52 on:** March 20, 2014, 07:09:40 PM »

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One of andysloan's numerous links (below) refers to Karl Rahner, S.J., for a defense of Valtorta. Rahner's all gushing over how wonderful private revelations are. Of course, he has nothing positive to say about Fatima. Interesting, at best.

So it looks like andysloan is also a fan of Rahner. That adds up.

Link: "The Gospel as Revealed to Me" (aka The Poem) found here.

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Neil Obstat · « **Reply #53 on:** March 20, 2014, 08:31:36 PM »

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Another linked page has the following. In this composition of Valtorta, she claims that "Jesus" said this. As for whether that is true or not, it would be sufficient for the devil to deceive her, such that one error here would be promoted, that is, that God the Father alone created the universe, and that therefore God the Son and God the Holy Ghost had nothing to do with it:

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DARWIN & MONKEYS (excerpted from THE NOTEBOOKS 1943, December 20th)

Jesus says:

"One of the points at which your pride founders in error--which, above all, degrades precisely your haughtiness by giving you an origin that, if you were less corrupted by pride, you would repudiate as degrading--is that of Darwin's theory.

In order not to admit God, who, in His power, was able to have created the universe from nothing and man from the already created mud, you take the paternity of a beast as your own.

Does this say God created the universe from nothing? No, it does not. All it says is that God was ABLE to do so. That is effectively a denial that He did so. But most superficial readers would never notice that. It sneaks right by, like the devil likes to do, under stealth.

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Don't you realize you are diminishing yourselves, for--consider this--won't a beast--no matter how exemplary, selected, improved, and perfected in form and instinct, and, if your [sic] wish, even in mental formation--always be a beast? Don't you realize this? This testifies unfavorably regarding your pride as pseudo-supermen.

Action Comics, June, 1938: first appearance of Superman -- this "Jesus" was quoting from comic books only 5 years old. How cutting edge! If only Valtorta could have written this 6 years earlier, she could have had a lot more credibility in that.

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But if you fail to realize, I will not be the one to waste words to make you aware of it and converted from the error. I ask you only one question which, in your great numbers, you have never asked yourselves. And if you can answer Me with facts, I will no longer combat this degrading theory of yours.

When else has Jesus ever said he's going to ask only one question..

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If man is a spin-off from the monkey, which by progressive evolution has become man, how is it that over so many years in which you have maintained this theory you have never succeeded, not even with the perfected instruments and methods at present, in making a man from a monkey? You could have taken the most intelligent offspring of a pair of intelligent moneys and then their intelligent offspring, and so on. You would now have many generations of selected, instructed monkeys cared for by the most patient, tenacious, and sagacious scientific method. But you would still have monkeys. If there happened to be a mutation, it would be this: the beasts would be physically less strong than the former ones and morally more degenerate, for, with all your methods and instruments, you would have destroyed that perfection of the monkey which My Father created for these quadrumans.

..and has then proceeded to ask "another question?" --- And don't try to defend it by saying it's the same question. If it's the same question, then where it's called "another question" has to be a lie:

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Another question. If man came from the monkey, how is it that man, even with grafts and repugnant forms of cross-fertilization, does not become a monkey again? You would be capable even of attempting these horrors if you knew that it could give approvative [sic] sanction to your theory. But you do not do so because you know that you would not be able to turn a man into a monkey. You would turn him into an ugly son of man, a degenerate, perhaps a criminal. But never a real monkey. You do not try because you know beforehand that you would get a poor result and your reputation would emerge therefrom in ruins.

For this reason you do not do so. For no other. [sic - not a sentence] For you feel no remorse or horror over degrading a man to the level of a beast to maintain a thesis of yours. You are capbable [sic] of this and of much more. You are already beasts because you deny God and kill the spirit, which distinguishes you from the beasts.

Wait: Jesus says, "You are already beasts," and in the same sentence says that you are distinguished from the beasts? Sounds to me like a forerunner of the "hermenutic of continuity" which is a denial of the principle of non-contradiction. That is to say, it is not the truth. But then, if the principle of non-contradiction can be denied, that which is not the truth can also be the truth, so it's a wash with Valtorta.

Pretty impressive stuff, andysloan --------- NOT!

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Your science causes Me horror. You degrade the intellect and like madmen do not even realize you are degrading it. In truth, I tell you that many of the primitive are more men than you are."

Written by Maria Valtorta

http://valtorta.org/

It seems rather odd that Our Lord would be quoted as saying that our science causes Him "horror." For there isn't anything wrong with science itself. Rather it is the way science is fraudulently USED to promote lies, that is the problem.

There is nothing about "science" in Darwinism. It's all deception. Why wouldn't Jesus have anything to say about the way science is falsified?

If these writings were authentically words of Our Lord, they would have a very different content.

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andysloan · « **Reply #54 on:** March 20, 2014, 09:15:57 PM »

The coming of the antichrist is just around the corner.

In a sermon, St Vincent Ferrer spoke about why the Christians of that time would be subjected by the beast:

Daniel 8:24

"And his power shall be strengthened, but not by his own force: and he shall lay all things waste, and shall prosper, and do more than can be believed. And he shall destroy the mighty, and the people of the saints,"

He said the reason was:

Wisdom 11:17

"That they might know that by what things a man sinneth, by the same also he is tormented."

Our Lady of La Salette said:

"each individual will want to be on his own and be superior to people of same identity."

and;

Saint Columbcille was a famous Irish saint and seer who lived between 521 and 597 AD. Most of his prophecies involve Ireland, and he successfully predicted many events in Irish history such as the great potato famine and the advent of railroads.

"Hearken, thou, until I relate things that shall come to pass in the latter ages of the world. Great carnage shall be made, justice shall be outraged, multitudinous evils, great suffering shall prevail, and many unjust laws will be administered. The time shall come when they will not perform charitable acts, and truth shall not remain in them, and truth shall not remain in them. They will plunder the property of the church, they will be continually sneering at each other, they will employ them at reading and writing. They will scoff at acts of humility; there will come times of dark affliction, of scarcity, monarchs will be addicted to falsehood. Neither justice nor covenant will be observed by any one people of the race of Adam; they will become hard-hearted and penurious, and will be devoid of piety. The clergy will become fosterers, in consequence of the tidings of wretchedness; churches will be held in bondage by the all-powerful men of the day.

"Judges will administer injustice, under the sanction of powerful, outrageous kings; the common people will adopt false principles. Oh, how lamentable shall be their position! Doctors of science will have cause to murmur, they will become ungenerous in spirit; the aged will mourn in deep sorrow, on account of the woeful times that shall prevail. Cemeteries shall become all red, in consequence of the wrath that will follow sinners; wars and contentions shall range in the bosoms of every family. Excellent men shall be steeped in Poverty, the people will become inhospitable to their guests, the voice of the parasite shall be more agreeable to them than the melody of the harp touched by the sage's finger. In consequence of the general prevalence of sinful practices, humility shall produce no fruit. The professors of science shall not be rewarded, amiability shall not characterize the people; prosperity and hospitality shall not exist, but destitution will assume their place. The changes of the seasons shall produce only half their verdure, the regular festivals of the Church will not be observed; all classes of men shall be filled with hatred and enmity toward each other. The people will not associate affectionately with each other during the great festivals of the seasons; they will live devoid of justice and rectitude, up from the youth of tender age to the aged. The clergy shall be led into error by the misinterpretation of their reading; the Relics of the Saints will be considered powerless, every race of mankind will become wicked!

"Young women will become unblushing, the aged people will be of irascible temper; the kine will seldom be productive, as of old; lords will become murderers. Young people will decline in vigor, they will despise those who have hoary (gray) hair; there will be no standard by which morals may be regulated, and marriages will be solemnized without witnesses. Troublous shall be the latter ages of the world, the dispositions of the generality of men I will point out, from the time they shall abandon hospitable habits -- with the view of winning honor for themselves, they will hold each other as objects for ridicule. The possessors of abundance shall fall through the multiplicity of their falsehoods; covetousness shall take possession of every glutton, and when satisfied their arrogance shall know no bounds. Between mother and daughter anger and bitter sarcasms shall continuously exist; neighbors will become treacherous, cold, and false-hearted towards each another. The gentry will become grudgeful, with respect to their trifling donations; and blood relations shall become cool towards each other; Church livings shall become lay property. Such is the description of the people who shall live in the ages to come; more unjust and iniquitous shall be very succeeding race of men. The trees shall not bear the usual quantity of fruit, fisheries shall become unproductive and the earth shall not yield its usual abundance. Inclement Weather and famine shall come and fishes shall forsake the rivers. The people will be oppressed for lack of food, shall pine to death. Dreadful Storms and Hurricanes shall afflict them. Numberless Diseases shall then prevail. Fortifications shall be built narrow during these times of dreadful danger."

Neil Obstat - I would suggest printing out all you have written in this thread to a neighbour and take it for reflection before the Blessed Sacrament. Maybe, in your present complacency you will scoff at this suggestion. But when Russia and China are releasing their nuclear missiles, perhaps your attitude will be rather different than present.

Being a member of Tradition, should not be confused with salvation.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #55 on:** March 20, 2014, 09:54:41 PM »

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Neil Obstat - I would suggest printing out all you have written in this thread to a neighbour and take it for reflection before the Blessed Sacrament. Maybe, in your present complacency you will scoff at this suggestion. But when Russia and China are releasing their nuclear missiles, perhaps your attitude will be rather different than present.

Little do you know.

BTW: are you a fan of Karl Rahner, andysloan?

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Ambrose · « **Reply #56 on:** March 20, 2014, 11:02:58 PM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat

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Quote from: andysloan

You misconstrue my words... besides, there is serious testimony to support its approbation by Pope Pius XlI.

Let's see: Would that be the same Pius XII who hired Annibale Bugnini (whose "name shall live in infamy among those who love the Church’s traditional worship," according to Fr. Z) and stuck him into the new commission for reform of the liturgy? -- That Pius XII?

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You do not behave like a Catholic. You take cheap shots at Pope Pius XII, a Pope beloved by Catholics and who lived a life of unquestionable orthodoxy, and died with a pristine reputation.

His name does not live in infamy among good Catholics, only rotten Catholics who show their rot and foul mouths in speech and writing strait from Hell when they speak with despicable language against our beloved deceased Holy Father.

I expect such filth from Protestants, not Catholics.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #57 on:** March 21, 2014, 07:52:33 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

You do not behave like a Catholic. You take cheap shots at Pope Pius XII, a Pope beloved by Catholics and who lived a life of unquestionable orthodoxy, and died with a pristine reputation.

His name does not live in infamy among good Catholics, only rotten Catholics who show their rot and foul mouths in speech and writing strait from Hell when they speak with despicable language against our beloved deceased Holy Father.

I expect such filth from Protestants, not Catholics.

Why should I be surprised that the likes of Ambrose would chime in to attempt to defend the indefensible.

Pope Pius XII was a mixed bag. He was not so sqeaky clean as you and other mind-numbed sedes would like to think. He did some great things and he did some terrible things. If it were not for his appointing of Annibale Bugnini to the Commission for Liturgical Reform (an entity he established) we would not have had Vat.II or the Newmass. But you're ignorant of those facts and you don't want to learn, do you?

I didn't think so.

Most popes are not absolute saints. That doesn't mean they are not popes.

Pius XII trucked in the most groundbreaking break with Tradition in all of Church history, but you wouldn't know what that is, to be sure. You're ignorant and proud of it, Ambrose. Own it.

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Neil Obstat · « **Reply #58 on:** March 21, 2014, 08:09:01 AM »

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Maybe if you actually read what is on your screen, it would help.

Quote from: I

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Quote from: andysloan

You misconstrue my words... besides, there is serious testimony to support its approbation by Pope Pius XlI.

Let's see: Would that be the same Pius XII who hired Annibale Bugnini (whose "name shall live in infamy among those who love the Church’s traditional worship," according to Fr. Z) and stuck him into the new commission for reform of the liturgy? -- That Pius XII?

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I was quoting Fr. Z, as the link will show -- if you bother to look, that is.

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Pope Pius XII gave his approbation for Annibale Bugnini as Secretary in the Pope's new Commission for Liturgical Reform, and see how that turned out! If he gave similar approbation for the works of Valtorta, why is it taking so long then, for the damage to turn out like it did with the Newmass? Or ------ is it?

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I was quoting Michael Davies, as the link will show -- if you bother to look, that is.

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The errors of Vat.II are like a slow-drip of poison for the faith of Catholics.

Ditto the corrupted bilge scuм of Valtorta.

Bugnini got right to work tearing apart the Mass, and Valtorta settled in for the long haul, corrupting souls like andysloan for example. See how well it worked?

For andy won't pay any attention to constructive criticism. Like any good minion of the devil, what he doesn't want to hear, he just doesn't hear. Those who refuse to see and will not hear, let them be anathema.

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When you put A and B together, you get C, that is, if you can t-h-i-n-k.
Too often, sedes like you can't think, though. I'm sorry. I presumed too much.

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Neil Obstat · « **Reply #59 on:** March 21, 2014, 08:18:12 AM »

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The weak "approbation" that Pius XII tossed at Valtorta's works is another example of his failure to be the great pope he could have been. He did a lot of great things, and he could easily have done more of them.

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