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Author Topic: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII  (Read 17303 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
« Reply #105 on: May 30, 2022, 05:52:40 AM »
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  • As to contextualize the uncharacteristic rejection of some points of this: in the past few weeks I've become increasingly disturbed  by the traditionalist adherence to some form of conspiracy-gnosticism. As if your trad cred relies on what level of gnosis you've attained by acceptance of various cօռspιʀαcιҽs. It's become absurd and entirely vexing.

    I've noticed this as well.  Doctrine-related debates have clearly taken a back seat. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #106 on: May 30, 2022, 07:15:24 AM »
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  • There is a rather strange docuмent circulating the internet that appears to be the docuмent that Paul Williams referred to, assuming it exists at all, and assuming Paul Williams didn't make it up and assuming the image itself is authentic.

    Ladislaus, this might be what you were looking for in the National Archives. I have no idea what the provenance of this image is, or where it came from, or anything like that. I do not vouch for its authenticity in any way.

    Regardless, the image itself sure is wild:




    I saw this one while I was there, but it’s not what Williams cited.  Those docuмents are no longer available.  I have a hard time believing that Williams made it up.  He gave exact details regarding the type of docuмent, the date, and the declassification date.  I doubt someone would go to the trouble of fabricating those dates, especially for a point that wasn’t that important in his text but was just mentioned in passing and which Williams clearly didn’t think was particularly important ... as not being Catholic he didn’t really understand its theological implications.  I think that either he had another source outside the Archives or that someone disappeared them.  Security there is a bit lax.  I probably could have secretly destroyed a docuмent without getting caught if I wanted to.  You checked out these folders that had many docuмents in them and they would not know if one was missing when you returned it.  I’m guessing they’re just copies in the first place and not the originals.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #107 on: May 30, 2022, 07:17:05 AM »
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  • I've noticed this as well.  Doctrine-related debates have clearly taken a back seat.
    Probably because they've come to a point where they can't proceed because they're not meant to be solved by laymen. There's only so many times you can explain how the problem with the Pope question is not about recognizing and deposing a heretical Pope but the indefectibility of the Church before it becomes stale.

    So, rather than discuss devotions or something of spiritual benefit, we discuss the world and therefore fall under its influence once more. Which comes with this gnostic attitude where you have to accept some theory about the particulars of why the world is going to hell, showing how "in the know" you are, when that why is one of the basic, fundamental truths of Catholic teaching.

    I've noticed that devotional threads are also some of the least popular on any Catholic forum I've been on. Those kinds of threads save souls, not ones about the particulars of the world. People give MHFM a lot of grief, but their content has at least begun to help me out of this fruitless rut.

    Tomorrow starts the month of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. I'm thinking I should take a month away and meditate on His Heart to settle my soul.

    Alright, I'll get off my soapbox now.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #108 on: May 30, 2022, 08:29:03 AM »
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  • Probably because they've come to a point where they can't proceed because they're not meant to be solved by laymen. There's only so many times you can explain how the problem with the Pope question is not about recognizing and deposing a heretical Pope but the indefectibility of the Church before it becomes stale.

    So, rather than discuss devotions or something of spiritual benefit, we discuss the world and therefore fall under its influence once more. Which comes with this gnostic attitude where you have to accept some theory about the particulars of why the world is going to hell, showing how "in the know" you are, when that why is one of the basic, fundamental truths of Catholic teaching.

    I've noticed that devotional threads are also some of the least popular on any Catholic forum I've been on. Those kinds of threads save souls, not ones about the particulars of the world. People give MHFM a lot of grief, but their content has at least begun to help me out of this fruitless rut.

    Tomorrow starts the month of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. I'm thinking I should take a month away and meditate on His Heart to settle my soul.

    Alright, I'll get off my soapbox now.

    I think you make some good observations here, DL.

    I know I make mostly posts about the world and that is because God put people in my life who showed me the plans which are unfolding so I feel it's my duty to warn others.  The amount of information people need to understand is vast and complicated and that takes many posts. 

    I don't like scaring others but people should be warned so they can try to take whatever actions may be necessary to avoid traps.

    With our enemy closing in on every side, I think about St Joseph with Mary and the newborn baby Jesus in Bethlehem.

    St Joseph was given information that they were coming to kill the baby and he was able to make the escape in time.  If he hadn't been forewarned he wouldn't have been able to get Mary and the Babe out of there in time.

    Of course it was never in the plans of the Holy Family to hit the road with a newborn and head to a foreign country!  They only did so because they knew of the grave dangers if they had stayed and St Joseph took decisive action.

    Trads may need to get out of the smart cities and find places to hide out with their children.

    Sometimes fear and anxiety are telling us we need to take action.  God gave us these strong emotions to help save our lives when there is danger.  Of course action should only be done after prayer and with a calm mind.

    Also, in the end days there will be many deceivers and deceptions so we need to be on our toes with regards to who we trust.

    But without God we can do nothing, and our relationship to Him comes first so thanks for pointing that out!

    I pray often to St Joseph and ask him to help the Catholic fathers find ways to protect their families.  He has answered so many prayers for me so I know that he will guide you and all the dads at Cathinfo as well.





    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #109 on: May 30, 2022, 10:36:36 AM »
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  • Yes, you're right. I did misuse the term, if the Novus Ordo is not in fact a new religion. But you are also insisting that he held the Catholic faith whole and entire when his external acts show differently.

    Indeed the Novus Ordo is a new religion, but it's different than other non-Catholic religions in that it's masquerading as the Catholic Church, and for that reason it's entirely possible for there to be real Catholics in the Novus Ordo who are in material error because they've mis-identified it as the Catholic Church.  Catholics who remain in communion with the Conciliar hierarchy are NOT the same thing as a Catholic who runs off to join up with the Orthodox.  They're simply not in the same category.  Some people who don't see eye to eye with the Conciliar Church feel obliged to remain united to it precisely because they have the faith still and know that it's essential to belong to the Church.  So they have the proper formal motive but are in material error.  When SVs start sliding into this mentality that anyone who doesn't leave the NO is outside the Church, that can lead to a schismatic mentality and it's incredibly dangerous.

    I never said that he necessarily kept Catholic faith, nor have I seen evidence that he has not.  You're the one making the allegation that he has not, and yet you've failed to provide any evidence that he has not other than merely remaining in union with the Conciliar hierarchy and acknowledging them as such.  R&R do the same thing, they acknowledge the Conciliar hierarchy as legitimate, but they've concluded that despite this they're not required to remain in communion with the Conciliar hierarchy.  Other people have decided otherwise.  And actually, from the SV perspective, the latter in fact have the more formally Catholic position.

    Your only argument has been -- Siri recognized the V2 Popes and said the NOM, therefore not Catholic.  That's an extremely dangerous and problematic position to take.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #110 on: May 30, 2022, 10:50:27 AM »
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  • As to contextualize the uncharacteristic rejection of some points of this: in the past few weeks I've become increasingly disturbed  by the traditionalist adherence to some form of conspiracy-gnosticism. As if your trad cred relies on what level of gnosis you've attained by acceptance of various cօռspιʀαcιҽs. It's become absurd and entirely vexing.

    Please cite other examples of "trad adherence to conspiracy-gnosticism" besides this one.  And your allegation is nonsense.  Nobody says you're less of a Traditional Catholic if you don't believe in the Siri thesis or don't believe in the jab conspiracy or even if you don't believe that the h0Ɩ0cαųst was a hoax.  You just don't like the Siri theory and so now you're making these absurd generalizations about "trad conspiracy-gnosticism".

    If you don't care about the Siri theory, then don't bother posting about it.

    And this has nothing to do with any laymen thinking they're going to "solve" or "fix" the crisis.  It has everything to do with how, in good conscience, we navigate our way through it without wrecking the faith.  Trads have abandoned the Church (and, for instance, gone Orthodox) because ... considering Bergoglio to be the pope ... they've lost faith in the claims of the Catholic Church entirely.  R&R have developed an ecclesiology where anything but the non-infallible Magisterium is up for grabs and fair game.  Some people don't like to see the reputation of the Holy Catholic Church dragged through the mud by Catholics themselves.

    Siri Theory is the best explanation I have run across to explain what has been happening, and there's plenty of evidence for it.  If you don't like it and think it's a waste of time, then don't bother posting on it.  If you feel your time is better spent watching silent movies than discussing these issues, no one is forcing you to participate.  Just move along and ignore it.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #111 on: May 30, 2022, 11:36:33 AM »
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    I have a hard time believing that Williams made it up.  He gave exact details regarding the type of docuмent, the date, and the declassification date.  I doubt someone would go to the trouble of fabricating those dates, especially for a point that wasn’t that important in his text but was just mentioned in passing and which Williams clearly didn’t think was particularly important ... as not being Catholic he didn’t really understand its theological implications.
    From my understanding, Williams was FBI (or some US govt official) who was investigating Communism (it was the 1950s remember).  So, the US govt was keeping tabs on foreign officials who might be "red" (i.e. the modernist satanic Cardinals who threatened Siri).  For the US govt to monitor the papal election is quite plausible and logical, for the pope is the head of a major country of influence and the US govt had to make sure that Russian influences did not grow and influence the rest of europe.


    There would be no reason for Williams to lie about this because a) it wasn't a major point in his book, b) it neither proves/disproves the larger point that Communism was growing beyond Russia and c) his point had nothing to do with catholicism or religion.  He has no agenda but is a disinterested third-party...the most reliable of proofs.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #112 on: May 30, 2022, 11:45:00 AM »
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  • From my understanding, Williams was FBI (or some US govt official) who was investigating Communism (it was the 1950s remember).  So, the US govt was keeping tabs on foreign officials who might be "red" (i.e. the modernist satanic Cardinals who threatened Siri).  For the US govt to monitor the papal election is quite plausible and logical, for the pope is the head of a major country of influence and the US govt had to make sure that Russian influences did not grow and influence the rest of europe.


    There would be no reason for Williams to lie about this because a) it wasn't a major point in his book, b) it neither proves/disproves the larger point that Communism was growing beyond Russia and c) his point had nothing to do with catholicism or religion.  He has no agenda but is a disinterested third-party...the most reliable of proofs.

    Right, and I just don't buy that he would make up Docuмent Name, docuмent date, docuмent declassification date just out of whole cloth.  Since it wasn't a major point in his book, he could have just said, "FBI sources indicate" ... which he in fact did do in a later edition.  Evidently a fair number of people were trying to contact him about the docuмents, and I think he was getting annoyed and also could have been told they were being re-classified and were only de-classified by mistake.

    Just as the Commies had agents inside the conclave, you can be sure that the US did also.  Either that or the US had sources inside the Commie circles and got the info that way.  Why would he bother to state a detail such as that Siri took the name Gregory XVII if he didn't have info to that effect?  As a non-Catholic, he probably had little idea about the significance of it but was just parrotting back what he read in the actual source.  Of course, it's very significant for Catholics because choosing a papal name is only done after accepting the election.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #113 on: May 30, 2022, 12:26:49 PM »
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    in the past few weeks I've become increasingly disturbed  by the traditionalist adherence to some form of conspiracy-gnosticism.
    I'm on the complete opposite spectrum.  I'm increasingly disturbed by most Trads I know who *still* reject most cօռspιʀαcιҽs.  They won't even entertain the idea they are possible.  This is complete brainwashing. 


    We just lived through 1.5 years of the Covid hoax, one of the most pre-planned, globally organized, and internationally funded hoaxes in human history, where 70% of population was lied to, coerced, forced and manipulated to take an experimental jab.  Every level of society was involved to perpetrate this mass psychotic brainwashing -

    1.  govts at all levels (global, national, state, city....executive, legislative, judicial branches),
    2.  media at all levels,
    3.  major corporations at all levels (Food, manufacturing, insurance, financial, etc etc,
    4.  non-profit orgs at all levels,
    5.  Healthcare businesses at all levels,
    6.  Every major "church" organization (catholic, protestant, Jєωιѕн, etc)
    7.  Every major sport organization in the world 

    To put it another way, looking at the above list...Is there ANY area of society that isn't controlled by satan and his freemasonic minions?  Covid pulled the curtain back and let us look our enemies right in the eye (at least for those who WANT to see reality).  If they could pull off Covid...what is their limit?  How could any conspiracy be off the table, at least as a possibility?

    We shouldn't accept any story at face value; we should research all things, especially cօռspιʀαcιҽs.  But at this point in history, facing the organized and globally-controlling enemy of our day, NO conspiracy can be brushed aside without research.  How can anyone who is honest put limits on what these evil men are capable of?  If God was not in charge, and if He was not putting limits on the extent to which satan could control/tempt us to despair, we can say, as did King David:

    Have mercy on me, O God, for man hath trodden me under foot; all the day long he hath afflicted me fighting against me.
    My enemies have trodden on me all the day long; for they are many that make war against me.
    From the height of the day I shall fear: but I will trust in thee.
    In God I will praise my words, in God I have put my trust: I will not fear what flesh can do against me.  (Ps 55)





    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #114 on: May 30, 2022, 01:07:18 PM »
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  • I'm on the complete opposite spectrum.  I'm increasingly disturbed by most Trads I know who *still* reject most cօռspιʀαcιҽs.  They won't even entertain the idea they are possible.  This is complete brainwashing. 

    I agree, and I don't really believe that DL believes this, that there aren't some very real and significant cօռspιʀαcιҽs in motion.  I honestly think he just doesn't like the Siri Theory.  That is why I asked for others that he objects to.

    We saw this with the SSPX and a few SV priests who not only, IMO, misapplied "remote material cooperation" to the jab, but the same ones who thought it was OK to get it absolutely refused to consider the larger context of what the powers that be were trying to accomplish with the jab ... likely because they didn't want to come off LOOKING like "conspiracy kooks".

    People are being brainwashed and programmed as part of the conspiracy agenda, and it's very important to expose them in the early stages so that people are not susceptible to being trapped won the road after they had been led down certain paths.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #115 on: May 30, 2022, 01:09:50 PM »
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  • And if all we had for the Siri theory was some narrative about the white smoke and a bit of blarney from Malachi Martin, I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in it.  I wouldn't rule it out, but I wouldn't be convinced either.  But there's just way too much evidence to dismiss this, and given that it explains a lot (has an obvious motive, cui bono, etc.) ... I'm convinced that it is precisely what happened.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #116 on: May 30, 2022, 01:22:58 PM »
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  • I agree, and I don't really believe that DL believes this, that there aren't some very real and significant cօռspιʀαcιҽs in motion.  I honestly think he just doesn't like the Siri Theory.  That is why I asked for others that he objects to.
    Nope, you're putting words into my writings. It has nothing to do with the Siri theory in itself. Just the conspiracy stuff in general. It is a fixation among many of you. Yes, there is truth to many of them, but they should not be our primary concern and focus. Miser understood this and 2V understood this. It's almost become a false, second gospel to some.

    Quote
    We saw this with the SSPX and a few SV priests who not only, IMO, misapplied "remote material cooperation" to the jab, but the same ones who thought it was OK to get it absolutely refused to consider the larger context of what the powers that be were trying to accomplish with the jab ... likely because they didn't want to come off LOOKING like "conspiracy kooks"

    This is a good example of what I'm talking about. They don't have the same level of "gnosis" as you on the Agenda, so they're suspect. Maybe God has blinded them for their errors and heresies? God only knows.

    Quote
    People are being brainwashed and programmed as part of the conspiracy agenda, and it's very important to expose them in the early stages so that people are not susceptible to being trapped won the road after they had been led down certain paths.
    Again, I'm not denying there is an agenda. Scripture told us what would happen at the end of time. If Siri is a part of that, then so be it. "For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way." [2 Thessalonians 2:7]

    That people would even be brainwashed: "And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:" [2 Thessalonians 2:10]

    Even the Jєωιѕн conspiracy is scriptural: "and thou art blasphemed by them that say they are Jews and are not, but are the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan." [Apocalypse 2:9]

    There are cօռspιʀαcιҽs, there always have been, even at the time of Our Lord. But having this fixation on them, as I have realized, is not overall beneficial to our spiritual well-being.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #117 on: May 30, 2022, 01:41:13 PM »
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  • Nope, you're putting words into my writings. It has nothing to do with the Siri theory in itself. Just the conspiracy stuff in general. It is a fixation among many of you. Yes, there is truth to many of them, but they should not be our primary concern and focus. Miser understood this and 2V understood this. It's almost become a false, second gospel to some.

    I'm not putting words into anything, just interpreting your reaction.  You've not hesitated before to join in on "conspiracy theory" discussion ... until now.  And this nebulous claim that this discussion is our "primary concern and focus" is absurd.  How can you possibly know that?  Just because someone is interested in certain topics and join in when the subject comes up doesn't make it their "primary concern and focus".  I don't know that I have ever STARTED a thread on the Siri theory, but if I have it hasn't been often.  You can read that my primary focuses have been on theology, and within theology, the question of EENS and then second the SV/SP/R&R debate.  So sue me if I'm interested in these topics, and I'm also interested in things like Globalist cօռspιʀαcιҽs, the Plandemic, the jab, etc ... when these things have been affecting our lives lately.  I'm not interested in silent movies and less iterested in some other topics that are brought up here.

    But this notion that conspiracy theories are "our primary concern and focus" and that we hold it up as a litimus test for being a real Traditional Catholics ... those charges are completely unfounded ... and, if they were true, you would need to know a lot more about us than basing it on which topics we happen to interest us on a discussion forum.

    So if anyone is "putting words into my writings," that would be you here with this charge.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #118 on: May 30, 2022, 01:48:41 PM »
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    But having this fixation on them, as I have realized, is not overall beneficial to our spiritual well-being.
    Fixating on anything is not good.  In our day, constantly talking about cօռspιʀαcιҽs is like former times, when people constantly talked about the weather, or local news, or town gossip etc.  It is THE topic of the day.  We are living in a war (a 70+ years "information war" that is morphing into an actual war between the elites and us).  cօռspιʀαcιҽs are part of the information war, like it or not.


    Scripture tells us to be "wise as serpents and simple as doves".  Knowing and understanding your enemy and his tactics is not the same as giving into fear or spiritual despair.  One can do the former without the latter.  One's hope in God should actually increase by seeing the depths of depravity and evil that exists in the world and realizing how much God has spared us from the same and kept us safe from such dangers.  When we see the power and majesty of evils all around us, it should give us pause to think that all these demonic spirits and evil men are simple, created beings.  And God's power and majesty is infinitely greater and unfathomably supreme in comparison.  When we stare into the darkness of the abyss of sin, evil and hatred, we should realize that much more how bright is God's holiness, purity and love.  At least that's how I look at it.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
    « Reply #119 on: May 30, 2022, 02:03:30 PM »
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  • So be it. I've said my piece.

    "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet." [Matthew 10:14]
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]