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Traditional Catholic Faith => Fighting Errors in the Modern World => Topic started by: Incredulous on May 25, 2022, 09:43:27 PM

Title: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Incredulous on May 25, 2022, 09:43:27 PM
Today is the Feast of St. Pope Gregory VII

From St. Andrews missal:  " While he was saying Mass, a dove was seen to come down on him: the Holy Ghost thereby bore witness of the supernatural views that guided him in the government of the Church. 

Forced to leave Rome, he died at Salerno in 1085, saying those words, the first of which are from
Psalms xiiv: "I have loved justice and hated iniquity: that is why I die in exile."

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fimage2.slideserve.com%2F4802348%2Fpope-gregory-vii-n.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)

Pope Gregory XVII

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwhitesmoke1958.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F06%2FSiri-and-the-dove.png&f=1&nofb=1)
Cardinal Siri (Pope Gregory XVII)
Visited by a white dove, symbol of the Holy Ghost while celebrating Mass.

Vatican II's, "hidden Pope" who suffered much.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 25, 2022, 09:59:51 PM
Maybe. He still fell into heresy by supporting and enforcing the Vatican II sect, therefore, losing any papal authority he may have had.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 26, 2022, 06:54:55 AM
Maybe. He still fell into heresy by supporting and enforcing the Vatican II sect, therefore, losing any papal authority he may have had.

I don’t see any evidence of his having been a heretic.  Can you cite a heresy to which he adhered?  Regardless, he was the one in rightful possession of the papal office and had he chosen to exercise it, would have had the protection of the Holy Ghost.  He’s the key to unlocking the entire mystery of Vatican II and the reason it was possible for a series of “popes” to mostly destroy the Church with their “authority”.  This was the master-stroke of the Church’s enemies.  They knew that a legitimately elected pope would be prevented from wrecking the Church ... even if it meant God striking him dead.  So they installed an illegitimate replacement while sidelining the true pope.

That is why the Siri situation is so crucial.  It’s the key to understanding the Crisis.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 26, 2022, 07:41:24 AM
Would not embracing Vatican II with it's teachings on religious liberty constitute heresy?
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 26, 2022, 08:24:33 AM
Would not embracing Vatican II with it's teachings on religious liberty constitute heresy?

Did he embrace them?  Secondly, no, religious liberty as a term is not heretical.  1) it's never been defined with the note of de fide and 2) there's probably a different understanding of the phrase depending on who you ask.  I've seen a lot of people (conservative Novus Ordites) asser that it basically means religious toleration.

I think we just had a round of where I was defending you against the charge of heresy from RomanTheo.  When we asser that someone is a heretic, we'd better have 1) chapter and verse of which dogma they're directly denying and 2) proof that the person denied it.

To charge Siri with heresy, I'd need to see 1) citations from Siri himself and 2) an explanation for why it directly contradicts something that's de fide.  And then if you confronted him about it, would he recant?

It's not really relevant to the discussion here, since if Siri materially held the office, then he held the office.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 26, 2022, 08:51:18 AM
Did he embrace them?  Secondly, no, religious liberty as a term is not heretical.  1) it's never been defined with the note of de fide and 2) there's probably a different understanding of the phrase depending on who you ask.  I've seen a lot of people (conservative Novus Ordites) asser that it basically means religious toleration.

I think we just had a round of where I was defending you against the charge of heresy from RomanTheo.  When we asser that someone is a heretic, we'd better have 1) chapter and verse of which dogma they're directly denying and 2) proof that the person denied it.

To charge Siri with heresy, I'd need to see 1) citations from Siri himself and 2) an explanation for why it directly contradicts something that's de fide.  And then if you confronted him about it, would he recant?
That's fair. Although, now I'm unsure if you're implying whether Vatican 2 is not a heretical council by imparting a false understanding of religious liberty to those who embrace it.

Quote
It's not really relevant to the discussion here, since if Siri materially held the office, then he held the office.

I don't disagree. I'm just not really convinced anymore by the Siri thesis. Sure, he may have been legitimately elected in 1958, and there's some evidence to support that. But beyond that point, everything else is hearsay and reading into Siri's interior forum on whether or not he was the Pope. He never explicitly confirmed or denied that.
It still does not change the fact that he embraced the Council, said the New Mass, and enforced its new teachings against those traditionalist clergy.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Yeti on May 26, 2022, 08:53:13 AM
Would not embracing Vatican II with it's teachings on religious liberty constitute heresy?
.

Of course. And it is a general rule that a person in authority consents to something that happens under his authority, which it is his duty to control. So a bishop or cardinal has a duty to preach publicly the Catholic faith and condemn error. Therefore, if he remains silent in the presence of widespread error masquerading as the Catholic faith, he is presumed to consent to that error.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: josefamenendez on May 26, 2022, 09:12:19 AM
Yes, Siri IS the answer to the mystery of iniquity in the Church, the Pope who suffers much. We also will never know until it is revealed what horrors he was threatened with if he spoke truthfully to rightfully  ascend to his Papacy. Millions killed by nuclear weapons and sent to Hell? Rome bombed, family murdered? Even if he should have risen above these things in faith and claimed his rightful position, we can't actually fathom what he faced. 
Siri can be accused as having a lack of courage and moral weakness, but that doesn't disqualify his valid election. As he never implemented His Papacy, any "heresies" attributed to him, which I doubt there are, are moot at this point. 
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 26, 2022, 09:18:37 AM
.

Of course. And it is a general rule that a person in authority consents to something that happens under his authority, which it is his duty to control. So a bishop or cardinal has a duty to preach publicly the Catholic faith and condemn error. Therefore, if he remains silent in the presence of widespread error masquerading as the Catholic faith, he is presumed to consent to that error.
This is what I was getting at, he still joined in with those cardinals who "have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication", namely, Vatican II; and is still responsible for the same errors and heresies they promoted. Abp. Lefebvre and others initially accepted the Council, but then publicly repudiated it. Siri did not and I only have his exterior actions to go off of which align him with the Vatican 2 Whore of Babylon.

Yes, Siri IS the answer to the mystery of iniquity in the Church, the Pope who suffers much. We also will never know until it is revealed what horrors he was threatened with if he spoke truthfully to rightfully  ascend to his Papacy. Millions killed by nuclear weapons and sent to Hell? Rome bombed, family murdered? Even if he should have risen above these things in faith and claimed his rightful position, we can't actually fathom what he faced.
Again, this is reading into his interior forum. Outside of the hearsay of Malachi Martin and others, there's no way of knowing just what motivated him to stay quiet if he were the legitimate Pope. There's no evidence outside of some vague remark about a terrible secret. 

I'm not rejecting the thesis that he may have been legitimately elected. But the rest of that which has come with it is the speculation of the trad conspiracy mill.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: 2Vermont on May 26, 2022, 05:47:44 PM
Did he embrace them?  Secondly, no, religious liberty as a term is not heretical.  1) it's never been defined with the note of de fide and 2) there's probably a different understanding of the phrase depending on who you ask.  I've seen a lot of people (conservative Novus Ordites) asser that it basically means religious toleration.

I think we just had a round of where I was defending you against the charge of heresy from RomanTheo.  When we asser that someone is a heretic, we'd better have 1) chapter and verse of which dogma they're directly denying and 2) proof that the person denied it.

To charge Siri with heresy, I'd need to see 1) citations from Siri himself and 2) an explanation for why it directly contradicts something that's de fide.  And then if you confronted him about it, would he recant?

It's not really relevant to the discussion here, since if Siri materially held the office, then he held the office.
So, how is he any different than any of the other Vatican II "popes"?  And if he isn't any different, then how is he "the answer" or "the key"?
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 26, 2022, 09:15:34 PM
So, how is he any different than any of the other Vatican II "popes"?  And if he isn't any different, then how is he "the answer" or "the key"?

He's different because as the legitimate pope his Magisterium would have been protected by the Holy Spirit.  God would not allow a legitimate pope to teach error.  But an imposter doesn't have the same protections.  This really isn't that difficult.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 26, 2022, 09:16:58 PM
That's fair. Although, now I'm unsure if you're implying whether Vatican 2 is not a heretical council by imparting a false understanding of religious liberty to those who embrace it.

Religious Liberty is not heretical, a grave error (which the Holy Spirit also would not allow a legitimate Ecuмenical Council to teach), but not strictly heresy.  Chief heresy of V2 was the false ecclesiology and and the denial of EENS ... which, sadly, most Traditional Catholics also hold.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 26, 2022, 09:19:49 PM
He's different because as the legitimate pope his Magisterium would have been protected by the Holy Spirit.  God would not allow a legitimate pope to teach error.  But an imposter doesn't have the same protections.  This really isn't that difficult.
Then his offering of the New Mass and support and implementation of the teachings of Vatican 2 are protected, therefore, proving that there is no error or heresy in either.

But we know this isn't true because there is error and heresy in both. Meaning Pope Gregory XVII taught these errors and offered an invalid liturgy. Therefore, he wasn't a secret Pope at all.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 26, 2022, 09:39:29 PM
He's different because as the legitimate pope his Magisterium would have been protected by the Holy Spirit.  God would not allow a legitimate pope to teach error.  But an imposter doesn't have the same protections.  This really isn't that difficult.

I need to add that these enemies deliberately waited for Siri to be elected and then to accept before moving in with their threats.  This was necessary, because they knew that the Holy Ghost would prevent a legitimate pope from teaching error to the Church.  Were a secret evil infiltrator to get elected, God would strike him dead if necessary to prevent him from teaching error to the Church from the Holy See.  Had they threatened Siri into refusing to accept, despite the threats, he would not have ever held the office.  It's only a resignation from office that threats invalidate.  But he does not hold the office until he accepts.  By pushing aside a man who was elected and accepted, they forced him out of office illegitimately under duress, which then impeded a subsequent election from being legitimate.  Consequently, they foisted an illegitimate pope on the world who was therefore not protected by the Holy Ghost and could proceed to wreck the Church.

So these enemies of the Church have more faith in the protection of the Holy Ghost over the Church and the papacy than R&R do.  This was a brilliant tactic, and they pulled it off flawlessly.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 26, 2022, 09:44:04 PM
Then his offering of the New Mass and support and implementation of the teachings of Vatican 2 are protected, therefore, proving that there is no error or heresy in either.

But we know this isn't true because there is error and heresy in both. Meaning Pope Gregory XVII taught these errors and offered an invalid liturgy. Therefore, he wasn't a secret Pope at all.

Popes are only protected from teaching error from the Holy See.  He never taught anything in the capacity of pope, but only as a private doctor.  Popes are not protected from personal error or grave sin (as we have seen with several popes who were incredible scoundrels), only from teaching error to the Universal Church from the See of Peter.  Siri never did that.  In fact, he never taught anything from the Holy See.  It's even possible that he didn't believe that he was the pope.

To quote Biden, come on, man.

It is merely pious opinion that a Pope cannot in his personal capacity defect from the faith (cf. Bellarmine), and I believe that had Siri assumed the exercise of the papal office, he would have been protected from that as well.  Nevertheless, you have still provided zero proof that he was himself a heretic.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 26, 2022, 09:55:32 PM
Yes, Siri IS the answer to the mystery of iniquity in the Church, the Pope who suffers much. We also will never know until it is revealed what horrors he was threatened with if he spoke truthfully to rightfully  ascend to his Papacy. Millions killed by nuclear weapons and sent to Hell? Rome bombed, family murdered? Even if he should have risen above these things in faith and claimed his rightful position, we can't actually fathom what he faced.
Siri can be accused as having a lack of courage and moral weakness, but that doesn't disqualify his valid election. As he never implemented His Papacy, any "heresies" attributed to him, which I doubt there are, are moot at this point.

Exactly.  None of the personal attacks against +Siri have anything to do with whether he canonically held papal office.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: 2Vermont on May 27, 2022, 04:40:57 AM
He's different because as the legitimate pope his Magisterium would have been protected by the Holy Spirit.  God would not allow a legitimate pope to teach error.  But an imposter doesn't have the same protections.  This really isn't that difficult.
Your condescending attitude really isn't that helpful.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: josefamenendez on May 27, 2022, 07:51:41 AM
So, how is he any different than any of the other Vatican II "popes"?  And if he isn't any different, then how is he "the answer" or "the key"?
He wasn't a Vll Pope- in fact he was the antithesis to Vll. He was elected in 1958, before the Council, and I daresay that Vll most likely would have never happened, or at least never have taken the freemasonic/ judaic turn had Pope Gregory XVll been seated in Rome. So removing him from the Papacy and seating anti-popes was key to the destruction of the (consilliar) Church.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: SimpleMan on May 27, 2022, 08:07:38 AM
Yes, Siri IS the answer to the mystery of iniquity in the Church, the Pope who suffers much. We also will never know until it is revealed what horrors he was threatened with if he spoke truthfully to rightfully  ascend to his Papacy. Millions killed by nuclear weapons and sent to Hell? Rome bombed, family murdered? Even if he should have risen above these things in faith and claimed his rightful position, we can't actually fathom what he faced.
Siri can be accused as having a lack of courage and moral weakness, but that doesn't disqualify his valid election. As he never implemented His Papacy, any "heresies" attributed to him, which I doubt there are, are moot at this point.

I have read about the "Siri thesis", and I think it's a foregone conclusion that he was elected in the conclave, but what was supposed to be so terrible (in the eyes of his enemies) about Siri being Pope, that would prompt such dire threats and blackmail?  What was he going to do that Pius XII had not already done?   To whom did he pose such a threat?  If nuclear war were on the table, the Soviets were the only ones who would have had this capability, and would have had a reason to be threatened.  Or, for some reason, did the US not want him to be elected (Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ?), and they would have been the ones to use the nukes?  Against Italy, an ostensible ally?

Or was it more a case of "because he's not Roncalli"?  Because the enemies of the Church wanted Roncalli, and that Siri's election thwarted their plans?  
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 27, 2022, 08:13:24 AM
Your condescending attitude really isn't that helpful.

Yeah, maybe.  But nothing else would be "helpful" in your case either.  You have these emotional reactions (and therefore won't consider rationally) anything that doesn't fit in with your straight sedevacantist viewpoint, from your animosity right out of the gate against Archbishop Vigano, your railing against sedeprivationism, and now this.  You won't think in terms of distinctions, and that's the key to your thinking on all these issues.  You only think in binaries.  Either someone is the pope or he isn't, vs. he can be a pope in one respect but not another.  +Vigano bad because he hasn't declard the Holy See vacant and he used to belong to the Conciliar hierarchy ... and similarly with +Siri.

Not everyone who belongs to the Conciliar Church is a formal heretic, and it is possible to be elected to or designated to office before being able to formally excercise its authority.  If a layman were elected and accepted, he'd be legitimate holder of the office at that moment, but he could not actually exercise the teaching authority of the office without being ordained and then consecrated.  That distinction can actually be found in St. Robert Bellarmine.

But anything that doesn't fit in with your simplistic vision of Novus Ordo bad and See vacant, you reject and rail against without making any rational arguments, and then when others present them you ignore them or filter them out.

So it's gotten to the point that I don't really need to be "helpful", since you don't want to be "helped" ... in other words, you refuse to think outside of your own personal conclusions and there's no real point discussing these matters with you.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 27, 2022, 08:19:32 AM
I have read about the "Siri thesis", and I think it's a foregone conclusion that he was elected in the conclave, but what was supposed to be so terrible (in the eyes of his enemies) about Siri being Pope, that would prompt such dire threats and blackmail?  What was he going to do that Pius XII had not already done?  To whom did he pose such a threat?  If nuclear war were on the table, the Soviets were the only ones who would have had this capability, and would have had a reason to be threatened.  Or, for some reason, did the US not want him to be elected (Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ?), and they would have been the ones to use the nukes?  Against Italy, an ostensible ally?

Or was it more a case of "because he's not Roncalli"?  Because the enemies of the Church wanted Roncalli, and that Siri's election thwarted their plans? 

Right, I don't think it was about Siri per se, but, rather, the enemies wanted to plant THEIR guy in the papacy so they could set about wrecking the Church.  I'm convinced that Roncalli was a conscious agent of these destroyers.  There's one story where Roncalli, on the way to the conclave, told someone that he was going to be elected pope.  Pretty much everyone knew beforehand that +Siri was going to be elected, and he was, just as expected.  So they could have intimidated him before he was elected and accepted, but they waited until he was elected and accepted, to illegitimately force him out of the office, his resignation having been invalid due to the extreme duress.  Since a legitimately-elected pope would have been prevented by the Holy Ghost from wrecking the Church in any official way, and this was a brilliant way to bypass that protection.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: josefamenendez on May 27, 2022, 08:46:26 AM
The time for the destruction of the Church was possible-in 1960 as Sister Lucy alluded to, the inception of the Council. Siri was the "choice" of Pope Pius Xll and he was legitimately elected Pope, and received the grace of the Office. The freemasonic judaic movement against the papacy could only happen if there was A: an actual Pope that received the grace of the Office, and B: An unelected anti-pope who did NOT have the grace of the office as Pope Gregory had received it , in order to implement the destruction of the Papacy and the Church as a whole, a usurpation which could only happen by evil men not encuмbered by the Holy Ghost protecting the papacy.

If there was not a true Pope hidden, the papacy, even a freemasonic or luciferian would still have received the grace of the Office. This was true with Pope Pius lX, who was the choice of liberals and Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, but did a 180 after he was elevated to the Holy See. The evil ones could not again risk a validly elected Pope, even one of their choice, that would receive that Grace promised by Christ.
Hence Anti-popes, not validly elected as there was already a legitimate Pope in place, that were free to be as destructive as they were instructed to be.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DecemRationis on May 27, 2022, 11:02:24 AM
If Siri's resignation was not valid, then he would have remained pope, since he was canonically elected, correct? Sort of like Benevacantism . . . Sirivacantism. 
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Cryptinox on May 27, 2022, 11:23:26 AM
.

Of course. And it is a general rule that a person in authority consents to something that happens under his authority, which it is his duty to control. So a bishop or cardinal has a duty to preach publicly the Catholic faith and condemn error. Therefore, if he remains silent in the presence of widespread error masquerading as the Catholic faith, he is presumed to consent to that error.
Cardinal Siri publicly criticized Vatican II. He even called it the "worst mistake in history" or something like that.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Melanie on May 27, 2022, 11:26:02 AM
Is it incuмbent upon the Church to know with certainty and proof that Cardinal Siri or someone else was elected Pope and sidelined or is it enough to be able to point to promulgated heresy of claimants since death of Pope Pius XII as proof that now at this point the Church lacks a Pope? The Truth as perennially taught by the Church should be in itself a bulwark against this kind of fraudulent usurpation, no?
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DecemRationis on May 27, 2022, 11:29:30 AM
 The Truth as perennially taught by the Church should be in itself a bulwark against this kind of fraudulent usurpation, no?

A good point.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 27, 2022, 11:42:34 AM
If Siri's resignation was not valid, then he would have remained pope, since he was canonically elected, correct? Sort of like Benevacantism . . . Sirivacantism.

I think there's some difference in emphasis, in terms of what made the resignation invalid in each case, but essentially yes.

Siri:  Canon Law states that resignations made under duress are invalid.  So if you held a gun to a bishop's head and said, "resign," and he complied, the Church would still consider him the bishop.  I'm sure there's some interpretation regarding the level of duress required.  I'm sure mild duress would not count and may be considered persuasion rather than compulsion.

Benedict:  most Bennyvacantists are focused on the "formula" of resignation, that he secretly didn't want to resign and so he flubbed up the formula required for legitimate resignation.

I find the Siri case very compelling but the Benedict argument weak ... and I'll come back to that later.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DecemRationis on May 27, 2022, 11:54:49 AM
I think there's some difference in emphasis, in terms of what made the resignation invalid in each case, but essentially yet.

Siri:  Canon Law states that resignations made under duress are invalid.  So if you held a gun to a bishop's head and said, "resign," and he complied, the Church would still consider him the bishop.  I'm sure there's some interpretation regarding the level of duress required.  I'm sure mild duress would not count and may be considered persuasion rather than compulsion.

Benedict:  most Bennyvacantists are focused on the "formula" of resignation, that he secretly didn't want to resign and so he flubbed up the formula required for legitimate resignation.

I find the Siri case very compelling but the Benedict argument weak ... and I'll come back to that later.

Would he not then have lost the papacy afterwards through heresy or, at the least, schism by being joined to the "Conciliar sect," celebrating the NO, etc.?

And then what?

And what about when he died, even if he retained the papacy despite the above?

I question where the Sirivacantist theory gets us.  
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: 2Vermont on May 27, 2022, 12:19:37 PM
Yeah, maybe.  But nothing else would be "helpful" in your case either.  You have these emotional reactions (and therefore won't consider rationally) anything that doesn't fit in with your straight sedevacantist viewpoint, from your animosity right out of the gate against Archbishop Vigano, your railing against sedeprivationism, and now this.  You won't think in terms of distinctions, and that's the key to your thinking on all these issues.  You only think in binaries.  Either someone is the pope or he isn't, vs. he can be a pope in one respect but not another.  +Vigano bad because he hasn't declard the Holy See vacant and he used to belong to the Conciliar hierarchy ... and similarly with +Siri.

Not everyone who belongs to the Conciliar Church is a formal heretic, and it is possible to be elected to or designated to office before being able to formally excercise its authority.  If a layman were elected and accepted, he'd be legitimate holder of the office at that moment, but he could not actually exercise the teaching authority of the office without being ordained and then consecrated.  That distinction can actually be found in St. Robert Bellarmine.

But anything that doesn't fit in with your simplistic vision of Novus Ordo bad and See vacant, you reject and rail against without making any rational arguments, and then when others present them you ignore them or filter them out.

So it's gotten to the point that I don't really need to be "helpful", since you don't want to be "helped" ... in other words, you refuse to think outside of your own personal conclusions and there's no real point discussing these matters with you.
Gee you sound a bit emotional there Lad!

I never said I was against the Siri Theory, but I'm not convinced either.  I tend to agree with DL. So I was asking a legit question.  You chose to respond condescendingly.

But I'm not surprised at your railing against my positions even if you weren't completely accurate.  It's not the first time and it won't be the last.  Same ole same ole. :sleep:

Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 27, 2022, 04:04:16 PM
Would he not then have lost the papacy afterwards through heresy or, at the least, schism by being joined to the "Conciliar sect," celebrating the NO, etc.?

And then what?

And what about when he died, even if he retained the papacy despite the above?

I question where the Sirivacantist theory gets us. 

These are the same questions I have. It makes sense in regard to what may have happened in the conclave of 1958, but then it goes every which way due to his actions after that and the parties reporting these details (Malachi Martin being entirely suspect).
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: SimpleMan on May 27, 2022, 04:15:30 PM
If Siri's resignation was not valid, then he would have remained pope, since he was canonically elected, correct? Sort of like Benevacantism . . . Sirivacantism.

One would think so.  That seems to be one of the major contentions of the "Siri thesis".

And it would explain a lot.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: LeMond on May 27, 2022, 04:24:27 PM
edit
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: LeMond on May 27, 2022, 04:26:38 PM
Are there Successors to Siri ("Pope Gregory XVII")? Is there a current Pope in hiding according to the Siri thesis?
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 27, 2022, 04:31:30 PM
Are there Successors to Siri ("Pope Gregory XVII")? Is there a current Pope in hiding according according to the Siri thesis?
Some seem to believe so. Even though there's literally no evidence for it outside of the claims of someone, if I recall correctly, in Texas who knows the identity of his purported successor. Why he doesn't just come out and make himself known, given all of the trad clans fighting each other right now, God only knows. Perhaps because he doesn't exist? Maybe.

https://youtu.be/JO-l27d39d4
https://youtu.be/irUP6Ydt0NQ
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Yeti on May 27, 2022, 06:01:00 PM
Some seem to believe so. Even though there's literally no evidence for it outside of the claims of someone, if I recall correctly, in Texas who knows the identity of his purported successor. Why he doesn't just come out and make himself known, given all of the trad clans fighting each other right now, God only knows. Perhaps because he doesn't exist? Maybe.


I wasn't aware the Giuffre says there was a successor to Siri, or claimed to know who it was. I listened to a good bit of those two videos and couldn't find where he says that. Could you give a timestamp or something?
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 27, 2022, 06:19:36 PM

I wasn't aware the Giuffre says there was a successor to Siri, or claimed to know who it was. I listened to a good bit of those two videos and couldn't find where he says that. Could you give a timestamp or something?
I may have posted the wrong videos. I know he does make the claim in one part of that series, I'll try to dig it up when I have time later.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 27, 2022, 06:37:47 PM
I may have posted the wrong videos. I know he does make the claim in one part of that series, I'll try to dig it up when I have time later.
I was mistaken, I think I misunderstood him in the second or third part when he was talking about Malachi Martin.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Incredulous on May 27, 2022, 07:04:02 PM
These are the same questions I have. It makes sense in regard to what may have happened in the conclave of 1958, but then it goes every which way due to his actions after that and the parties reporting these details (Malachi Martin being entirely suspect).


According to Father Luigi Villa's report in Chiesa Viva magazine, Vatican II was a ʝʊdɛօ-masonic coup d'etat that was planned in the 1950s.

https://youtu.be/3X464pUhhxs (https://youtu.be/3X464pUhhxs)


Pope Pius XII was an obstacle to that plan because he had punished Montini for his treason with communist Russia.
Montini, the radical, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ Jєω, was key to implementing the VII plan. 

Pius XII was poisoned to meet the VII time-table.  There's evidence of this via his masonic, personal physician.

Roncali was a masonic place-holder pope, but his role was to immediately "stack the deck" to control future conclaves by elevating 35 modernists to the level of Cardinal.

Cardinal Siri remains a mystery, but we can piece together his 31 years of hidden papacy.
It appears he did take an oath of silence when forced to abdicate the Seat.
I could never find anything on the account that he was poisoned after his handlers felt he was going to rebel from their con-game.

In hindsight, we can see that Malachi Martin's role was that of an insider disinformation agent.  He slammed Gary Giuffre's Siri argument on talk shows, angrily claiming Cardinal Siri refused the papacy. (Not wanting to discuss the tampering and invalidated papal conclave).
Once Cardinal Siri accepted the conclave vote and took a papal name... he was the living pope.  He was also the papal favorite in the next two conclaves.

If you say Pope Gregory XVII, posing as Cardinal Siri had lost his papal authority, you just officially wiped-out the authority of the all the successor hoax-popes... and took away all the hopes of their R&R supporters. 

 How could you be so cruel? :facepalm:
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Yeti on May 27, 2022, 08:12:53 PM
It appears he did take an oath of silence when forced to abdicate the Seat.

.
An oath whose purpose is to destroy the Church would obviously not be binding. In fact, it would be a sin to observe it. This is not only common sense, it is something explicitly taught to children in 1st Communion catechism class. To say that a cardinal did not know this is absurd.

This is probably the most difficult angle of the Siri thesis. I don't know of any version of it in which Siri doesn't come out as the worst coward since Pontius Pilate. At least Pontius Pilate could claim he was a simple pagan and didn't know that Christ was God, and was threatened with his life. But Siri was threatened as a cardinal of the Catholic Church and caved in, -- as pope, no less, the vicar of Christ, with the most powerful graces of state of any human being on this planet -- and consented to hand over the reins of the Church to its worst enemies, who were psychopathic mass murderers (if you believe the hydrogen-bomb-over-Rome theory), and allowed them to take over the Church?! A cardinal, who not only had (presumably) the virtue of Faith, and should have believed that God would triumph over His enemies, but also had almost 2,000 years of history behind him to see that the Church had overcome countless such attacks and persecutions and would easily triumph over this one again? How could he think it would be a good idea to allow people threatening mass murder and/or schism to take the papacy from him?

On a certain level, I don't think it matters much whether he or Roncalli won that election. I think either one was just as bad.

And if I had to choose to be in the eternal shoes of either Pontius Pilate or Cardinal Siri, I'd choose Pontius Pilate, since he was less responsible for his actions.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 27, 2022, 08:19:59 PM
.
An oath whose purpose is to destroy the Church would obviously not be binding.

We know that, and the Dimonds said the same thing about the Siri situation (which they seemed to find very credible).  But for some reason he was under the impressioin that he'd be committing a grave sin to break it.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 27, 2022, 08:22:37 PM
According to Father Luigi Villa's report in Chiesa Viva magazine, Vatican II was a ʝʊdɛօ-masonic coup d'etat that was planned in the 1950s.

There can be no doubt of this; Vatican II has their fingerprints all over it.  I don't believe the line that these papal imposters were well-meaning men with minds that had just been poisoned with Modernism, that they were confused or lost their senses.  This was clearly done by design.  Cui bono?  None other than Satan himself.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Yeti on May 27, 2022, 08:34:22 PM
We know that, and the Dimonds said the same thing about the Siri situation (which they seemed to find very credible).  But for some reason he was under the impression that he'd be committing a grave sin to break it.
.

No, he wasn't, that's absurd. If you know it, and I know it, and every catechized fourth-grader knows it, then a pre-Vatican 2 cardinal certainly knew it. He was just a coward who refused to stand up and do his duty.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 27, 2022, 08:36:34 PM
There can be no doubt of this; Vatican II has their fingerprints all over it.  I don't believe the line that these papal imposters were well-meaning men with minds that had just been poisoned with Modernism, that they were confused or lost their senses.  This was clearly done by design.  Cui bono?  None other than Satan himself.
The time has long since passed for excusing their actions in this way. If one cannot see that these men are infiltrators and Antipopes, then they are blind. This is the contradiction MHFM pointed out in their video on the SSPX. The R&R position was tenable when there was still the question of them being legitimate, but confused or poisoned by Modernism, but once Assisi happened under the Deuce, and the subsequent spiritual abominations since then with the Rat and Frank Bergoglio, I'm sorry, but, you're just totally blind at this point if you believe these men are anything more than just material occupiers of the papacy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1v5t0xbcUo&t=484s
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 27, 2022, 08:40:23 PM

On a certain level, I don't think it matters much whether he or Roncalli won that election. I think either one was just as bad.

And if I had to choose to be in the eternal shoes of either Pontius Pilate or Cardinal Siri, I'd choose Pontius Pilate, since he was less responsible for his actions.
I have to agree. One sins by promulgating heresy, but the other sins by omission and silence.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Sir Percival on May 27, 2022, 08:50:45 PM
The time has long since passed for excusing their actions in this way. If one cannot see that these men are infiltrators and Antipopes, then they are blind. This is the contradiction MHFM pointed out in their video on the SSPX. The R&R position was tenable when there was still the question of them being legitimate, but confused or poisoned by Modernism, but once Assisi happened under the Deuce, and the subsequent spiritual abominations since then with the Rat and Frank Bergoglio, I'm sorry, but, you're just totally blind at this point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1v5t0xbcUo&t=484s

Hmmmm….

I agree with Ladislaus that the Vatican II revolution was by design and planned accordingly. Certainly by Satan as the distal cause, but the proximate responsibility was by Modernists who may have been internally well meaning men who tried to reconcile modernity with the Catholic Faith in order to save the Roman Catholic Church, in their view, from being relegated to a place of oblivion in the nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr of cultural/scientific/philosophical/technological advances.

The post VII Popes are heretics, no doubt. Anti-Popes? Most likely. Time will tell.

However, R&R has nothing to do with this. It’s an ecclesiology built on valid points of view that were never condemned; like Cajetan or John of St. Thomas. It’s not like Archbishop Lefebvre was confused about them being heretics. Neither are +Williamson or classic R&R of the SSPX type. I think Cassiciacuм is the correct PoV though.

In reality, it’s the Dimonds who are blinded that they cannot see the good in anything or anyone but themselves. In this sense, they are mentally unstable nutcases of prideful will who have gone off the deep end into sectarian extremism. They shouldn’t be compared to a great figure like Tertullian because they aren’t worth 1/10000000000000000th of his worth, but essentially they fell into the same trap of zealotry.

In my view, they are schismatics without a doubt and possibly heretics as well by implication of some of their views. :popcorn:
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 27, 2022, 08:58:23 PM

In reality, it’s the Dimonds who are blinded that they cannot see the good in anything or anyone but themselves. In this sense, they are mentally unstable nutcases of prideful will who have gone off the deep end into sectarian extremism. They shouldn’t be compared to a great figure like Tertullian because they aren’t worth 1/10000000000000000th of his worth, but essentially they fell into the same trap of zealotry.

In my view, they are schismatics without a doubt. :popcorn:
It's great you think that. Now, try addressing their arguments.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Sir Percival on May 27, 2022, 09:02:07 PM
It's great you think that. Now, try addressing their arguments.

Regarding…? ::)

Cheerios vs Frosted Flakes?
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 27, 2022, 09:12:48 PM
Regarding…? ::)

Cheerios vs Frosted Flakes?
Start with what I posted and go from there, I don't care.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Sir Percival on May 27, 2022, 09:18:32 PM
Start with what I posted and go from there, I don't care.

I already did bruh. Cajetan and John of St. Thomas’ positions were never condemned. R&R hold to them. They’re not heretical positions.

The bros Dimond think that +++Lefebvre, Williamson, some Sede clergy like Jenkins, et al are all heretics for not being dogmatic Sedevacantists. EENS is another issue for which they think the above were damned heretics, but that’s another can of worms.

+Lefebvre saw Assisi. He didn’t espouse Sedevacantism before he passed. He thought it was possible, but not certain. Dimonds think he was a heretic of bad will. Do you agree with that?

Also if you believe in the Dimond position, how is it that you attend an SSPX chapel and receive sacraments from “notorious heretics” who are not Sedevacantists and who don’t hold to the “true” position of EENS while being in the Dimondite terminology “imposing heretics?” Hmmm?
:popcorn:


Just stay home alone and pray the 15 decades bruh. :laugh2:
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 27, 2022, 09:33:02 PM
I already did bruh. Cajetan and John of St. Thomas’ positions were never condemned. R&R hold to them. They’re not heretical positions.
Plenty of other sedevacantists have refuted the issues with the way R&R utilize Cajetan and John of St. Thomas. I'm not going to waste my time on that here.

The bros Dimond think that +++Lefebvre, Williamson, some Sede clergy like Jenkins, et al are all heretics for not being dogmatic Sedevacantists. EENS is another issue for which they think the above were damned heretics, but that’s another can of worms.
First, they have never said they were "damned heretics" you aren't damned until you're dead, and that's impossible for them to know.
Second, yes, EENS is a dogma of the faith, making statements suggesting that pagans, Jєωs, and Muslims can be saved in their own religions, but not by them, is an explicit denial of that point. +Sanborn and +McKenna have both proclaimed these errors.

+Lefebvre saw Assisi. He didn’t espouse Sedevacantism before he passed. He thought it was possible, but not certain. Dimonds think he was a heretic of bad will. Do you agree with that?
He explicitly teaches that people in non-Catholic religions can be saved by the Catholic Church without being Catholic in Against the Heresies. That would at least constitute material heresy, but not of bad will. Where are you getting the bad will part from?

Also, if you believe in the Dimond position, how is it that you attend an SSPX chapel and receive sacraments from notorious heretics who are not Sedevacantists and who don’t hold to the “true” position of EENS while being in the Dimondite terminology “imposing heretics?” Hmmm?
:popcorn:
Quote
So, a traditional Catholic who is uncompromising about the Catholic faith - who wants to take advantage of the inestimable graces the sacraments provide - would have to receive sacraments from a priest who is not in full agreement with him on one of these issues, if he is to receive them at all.  Is that an acceptable course of action?  As will be shown in this section, we believe the answer is yes – provided that the Catholic doesn’t agree with or support the priest, and provided that the priest is not notorious or imposing about his heretical position. But fewer and fewer priests meet these requirements as this Great Apostasy continues.  Moreover, there is no positive obligation to receive sacraments from any priest who holds a heretical position, even if he is not notorious or imposing about his heretical position.  Therefore, if people don’t want to go they don’t have to.
https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/question-whether-one-may-receive-sacraments/ (https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/question-whether-one-may-receive-sacraments/)

I'm also not the only person here who holds to the dogma of EENS or agrees with MHFM on a lot of issues. In the above, I am the one who "wants to go" to the Sacraments and am well aware of my priest's position, which is actually not at all the liberal teachings of the SSPX leadership.

Just stay home alone and pray the 15 decades bruh. :laugh2:

Nah. I'll do the daily 15 decades and go to Mass on Sunday. :clown:

Responses are in red, bruh
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Sir Percival on May 27, 2022, 09:41:29 PM
https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/question-whether-one-may-receive-sacraments/ (https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/question-whether-one-may-receive-sacraments/)

I'm also not the only person here who holds to the dogma of EENS or agrees with MHFM on a lot of issues. In the above, I am the one who "wants to go" to the Sacraments and am well aware of my priest's position, which is actually not at all the liberal teachings of the SSPX leadership.

Just stay home alone and pray the 15 decades bruh. :laugh2:

Nah. I'll do the daily 15 decades and go to Mass on Sunday. :clown:

Responses are in red, bruh


LOOL!

Your responses didn’t address the issues at all. They are an apologia de la Dimond with an embarrassing hesitancy to take matters to their most necessary implications because of being on a forum which is R&R and because you attend an SSPX chapel. :laugh1:

Just come out of the closet with the logical conclusions of your beliefs instead of dancing around the issues.

DigitalLogos :clown::

-R&R are heretics.
-non-Feeneyites are heretics.
-The vast majority of Trads are heretics and their leaders heresiarchs.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 27, 2022, 10:50:40 PM

LOOL!

Your responses didn’t address the issues at all. They are an apologia de la Dimond with an embarrassing hesitancy to take matters to their most necessary implications because of being on a forum which is R&R and because you attend an SSPX chapel. :laugh1:

Just come out of the closet with the logical conclusions of your beliefs instead of dancing around the issues.

DigitalLogos :clown::

-R&R are heretics.
-non-Feeneyites are heretics.
-The vast majority of Trads are heretics and their leaders heresiarchs.
That's an over-simplification of where I stand. I can tell we are not going to get along.

This thread isn't an apologia of MHFM or a critique of it. So the argument ends here for me.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: roscoe on May 28, 2022, 02:51:17 AM
Acc to H Mann( Lives Popes) there is a dispute re Stephen II whom he describes as ' elected but not consecrated'... thereby rendering him as true or not true Il Papa acc to whom one agrees w/...

This sounds very similar to Siri election..:popcorn:
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 28, 2022, 09:11:26 AM
No, he wasn't, that's absurd. If you know it, and I know it, and every catechized fourth-grader knows it, then a pre-Vatican 2 cardinal certainly knew it. He was just a coward who refused to stand up and do his duty.

Great.  That's your interpretation for which you have no proof.  That has no impact to whether or not he was the legitimate pope.

And it's easy for you to sit in you easy chair with a beer and declare someone a coward, when you have absolutely no idea whether given the types of threats he was facing you'd buckle as well.  He had a large extended family.  What if someone told you step down as pope and shut up, or else we'll start murdering, kidnapping, and torturing your nieces and newphews.  Or we're going to round up and execute every single priest behind the Iron curtain unless you comply.  Or we're going to nuke the Vatican and a bunch of majority-Catholic cities.  Sure, he should have trusted God and gone ahead with it, but for you to sit here and judge him a coward from your easy chair, just shut the hell up.  God alone is his judge, not you.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: SimpleMan on May 28, 2022, 09:14:45 AM
I've been mulling over the Siri Thesis, and while I am quite convinced that Siri was indeed elected Pope in 1958 but, for whatever reason, did not endure in his exercise of the office, handing it over to Roncalli in another conclave, I'm puzzled by a couple of things:

First, the threat of a nuclear attack on Rome.  Presumably this would have been by the Soviets, "egged on" by whomever wanted Roncalli to ascend to the papacy --- again, this was apparently not so much because Siri was Siri, but because he was not Roncalli, and if another cardinal had been elected, the objection would have been the same --- "we wanted Roncalli".  So let's say that Siri had said "go ahead, make my day", and had remained as Pope Gregory XVII.  Then the bombs start falling, and there is a parking lot where the Vatican and Rome used to be.  Who, then, benefits?  Cui bono?  How are the ends accomplished that would have been accomplished if Roncalli had been elected?  (And, unless he had been spirited out before the nuclear attack, Roncalli would be dead, as would be the rest of the Cardinals.)  Was it a question of "well, we can destroy the Church and undermine the Faith one way or the other --- either Roncalli can become Pope and things can be set in motion according to our plan, or there will be no Cardinals, no Vatican, and, at least at the moment, no Pope, and we will accomplish our ends that way"?  The communists, the "learned elders", the Freemasons will then destroy the Church and the Faith through a "Plan B"?  And what would that plan have consisted of?  Or do they just throw up their hands, say "that Siri was one tough [insert expletive of choice here], we tried, it didn't work, such is life"?

Second, there are supposedly going to be these riots that break out.  Where?  Led by whom?  How widespread will they be, and how long will they last?  And will there be riots because all of these rioters so object to Siri being Pope?  Or riots because all of these people wanted Roncalli and didn't get him?  I seriously doubt there was a place anywhere in the Catholic world, where any large groups of people would have objections either way.  Did Roncalli promise all of these people something that they'd better get "or else"?  And what would that have been?

Again, I can buy Siri having been elected Pope, but the other things, they don't quite add up.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 28, 2022, 09:17:08 AM
As for your assertion that it doesn't matter, that's surprising coming from SVs because it absolutely matters.  You should know (having duked it out with R&R over the matter) that the Holy Spirit will prevent a legitimate pope from destroying the Church the way Roncalli, Montini, Wojtyla et al. have done.  Heck, even Archbishop Lefebvre said that it's impossible ... and openly mused about how this could have possibly happened given that protection of the Holy Spirit over the Church and the (legitimate) papacy

Here's the answer right here.  THIS is how it's possible.  You stick an illegitimately-elected imposter, impeded from legitimate election due to Gregory XVII having been forced out of office under grave duress, and that imposter is not protected by the Holy Spirit.  Had Roncalli won outright, say on the first ballot, God would have struck his Modernist butt dead before he could perpetrate the evils that he did, and the same for Montini.

As for Ratzinger and Bergoglio, "elected" when Siri had already died, there are several possible explanations.  First of all, both of these were the first ones consecrated in the new rite of episcopal consecration that's very likely invalid.  So, not being bishops, they couldn't exercise teaching authority in the Church (only bishops are part of the ecclesia doens).  Alternatively, the Cardinals appointed by the illegitimate anti-Popes (who in this case didn't even MATERIALLY possess papal office) would have all been illegitimate.

So maybe SVism isn't quite true, nor is SPism what's actually happening here.  Maybe it's sedimpeditsm, that election to the Holy See was impeded by the fact that there was a rightful pope already there.  St. Francis's prophecy spoke of the destroyer pope having been "uncanonically elected".
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 28, 2022, 09:24:41 AM
I've been mulling over the Siri Thesis, and while I am quite convinced that Siri was indeed elected Pope in 1958 but, for whatever reason, did not endure in his exercise of the office, handing it over to Roncalli in another conclave, I'm puzzled by a couple of things:

First, the threat of a nuclear attack on Rome.  Presumably this would have been by the Soviets, "egged on" by whomever wanted Roncalli to ascend to the papacy --- again, this was apparently not so much because Siri was Siri, but because he was not Roncalli, and if another cardinal had been elected, the objection would have been the same --- "we wanted Roncalli".  So let's say that Siri had said "go ahead, make my day", and had remained as Pope Gregory XVII.  Then the bombs start falling, and there is a parking lot where the Vatican and Rome used to be.  Who, then, benefits?  Cui bono?  How are the ends accomplished that would have been accomplished if Roncalli had been elected?  (And, unless he had been spirited out before the nuclear attack, Roncalli would be dead, as would be the rest of the Cardinals.)  Was it a question of "well, we can destroy the Church and undermine the Faith one way or the other --- either Roncalli can become Pope and things can be set in motion according to our plan, or there will be no Cardinals, no Vatican, and, at least at the moment, no Pope, and we will accomplish our ends that way"?  The communists, the "learned elders", the Freemasons will then destroy the Church and the Faith through a "Plan B"?  And what would that plan have consisted of?  Or do they just throw up their hands, say "that Siri was one tough [insert expletive of choice here], we tried, it didn't work, such is life"?

Second, there are supposedly going to be these riots that break out.  Where?  Led by whom?  How widespread will they be, and how long will they last?  And will there be riots because all of these rioters so object to Siri being Pope?  Or riots because all of these people wanted Roncalli and didn't get him?  I seriously doubt there was a place anywhere in the Catholic world, where any large groups of people would have objections either way.  Did Roncalli promise all of these people something that they'd better get "or else"?  And what would that have been?

Again, I can buy Siri having been elected Pope, but the other things, they don't quite add up.

I'm not sure how things would have played out had Siri stayed in office.  Perhaps they were bluffing, or perhaps they had some backup plan.  Some Cardinals and bishops did not attend Vatican II because of "poor health" or "other obligations".  They could have had some guy in reserve.  We don't really know.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: josefamenendez on May 28, 2022, 09:34:48 AM
I think Marie Julie Jehenny alluded to the suffering Pope ( Siri) choosing a successor- I'll look for it. 
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: SimpleMan on May 28, 2022, 10:02:18 AM
I'm not sure how things would have played out had Siri stayed in office.  Perhaps they were bluffing, or perhaps they had some backup plan.  Some Cardinals and bishops did not attend Vatican II because of "poor health" or "other obligations".  They could have had some guy in reserve.  We don't really know.

The rioting thing especially doesn't add up.  If that's all that would have happened, if there had been riots in cities throughout Europe (hard to imagine it anywhere else), how long would that have lasted, and what would it have accomplished?  Riots by their nature are short-lived phenomena.  The Francophone countries love their manifestations, street demonstrations that might take place over a day, or the course of a few days, but in the end, they accomplish nothing other than raising of consciousness among the sympathetic and potentially sympathetic. 

In the United States, the only people who riot are members of certain demographics or aggrieved political groups, and, to be sure, they can do damage, just look at 1968 after the King assassination, but they don't constitute a permanent takeover of the power structure.  (Some would add the January 6 storming of the Capitol that way, but that was pretty much just goobers with cellphones taking selfies --- the selfies, always the selfies, there will be pinheads taking selfies when Christ comes again in glory, think about it! --- and waving various flags.)  Possibly the closest thing we have to French manifestations are all of these "runs for a cure" of dread diseases and the like, so typically American, people in good physical shape (that deselects a lot of people) lending their presence and their exertion to some nobly-perceived cause punctuated by colored ribbons.

Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 28, 2022, 02:12:42 PM
The rioting thing especially doesn't add up.

We don't really know the details of what the threats were.  It's mostly a combination of speculation and Malachi Martin (about which, who knows?).  Paul Williams talked about the rioting, but that doesn't make much sense to me.  Malachi Martin at one point said that there were threats against Cardinal Siri's extended family, and at another time implied that it would involve nukes.  But these could have been two different episodes.  Martin claims that Siri was again elected at the conclave that eventually rolled out Montini as the pope.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Yeti on May 28, 2022, 02:29:04 PM
Great.  That's your interpretation for which you have no proof.  That has no impact to whether or not he was the legitimate pope.

And it's easy for you to sit in you easy chair with a beer and declare someone a coward, when you have absolutely no idea whether given the types of threats he was facing you'd buckle as well.  He had a large extended family.  What if someone told you step down as pope and shut up, or else we'll start murdering, kidnapping, and torturing your nieces and newphews.  Or we're going to round up and execute every single priest behind the Iron curtain unless you comply.  Or we're going to nuke the Vatican and a bunch of majority-Catholic cities.  Sure, he should have trusted God and gone ahead with it, but for you to sit here and judge him a coward from your easy chair, just shut the hell up.  God alone is his judge, not you.
.

Sorry, I didn't mean to get you riled up like that. Yeah, I do agree that the Siri thesis provides some possible answers to how the crisis in the Church got started, and the white smoke is pretty suspicious. It's certainly hard to see how a real pope could have acted the way John 23 did. All things considered, I do think it's quite likely Siri was elected in the 1958 conclave more likely than not. The rest of the discussion, though, such as why he stepped down, or his subsequent years, is pretty speculative.

Have a good weekend, Lad. :cowboy:
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Yeti on May 28, 2022, 02:30:59 PM
Acc to H Mann( Lives Popes) there is a dispute re Stephen II whom he describes as ' elected but not consecrated'... thereby rendering him as true or not true Il Papa acc to whom one agrees w/...

This sounds very similar to Siri election..:popcorn:
.

If I'm thinking about the same case as you, he was on his deathbed when he was elected pope. He was not yet consecrated a bishop, and he probably couldn't even get out of bed long enough to receive episcopal consecration. He was dead just a couple of weeks after being elected.

It's a strange case, but in 2,000 years almost everything is bound to happen at one point or another.

I see no similarity between his case and that of Cardinal Siri, though.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 28, 2022, 02:37:18 PM

Sorry, I didn't mean to get you riled up like that.

Well, I've just this over and over again how Siri was a coward ... but it's easy to do from one's armchair.  If I were elected Pope, and they told me that if I accepted they would murder my entire family, my wife and children, I'd like to think that I would refuse to give in to their demands, but then 1) this isn't the same as denying the faith and most "good" popes were rather reluctant to accept the election even without outside pressure, and 2) I can't say without being in that situation what I would do.  It's just like I'd like to think that I wouldn't deny the faith under extreme torture, but the best I can say is that I would hope God gives me the grace not to do so.  I wouldn't presume on it.

One might also think that, well, God's Providence governs the Church, and He'll take care of the Church.  God clearly wished to allow Vatican II to happen.  But we should leave it to God to judge Cardinal Siri, and it's not really pertinent to the question of whether he was legitimately elected, so I'm not going to sit here attacking Siri.

God also willed for us to be alive during this Crisis.  We can complain about it, and I do, since so many souls are being lost, but God put us here for a reason.  We're living through a kind of dry martyrdom during this Crisis.  Just as God allowed some Christians to be born under the time of blood martyrdom, so He's chosen to have us be born during this time, and He intends it to be for our sanctification.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 28, 2022, 03:30:55 PM
Quote
"The selection of the true Pope, according to the prophets, will be: a) almost miraculous; b) soon after the terrible war and revolutions; c) the selectors will assemble under many difficulties; d) some prophets foretell the intervention of Saints Peter and Paul and angels..." -Fr. Culleton, The Prophets and Our Times 1941 A.D. (Imprimatur)

Quote
"I see the Holy Father in great distress. He lives in another palace and receives only a few in his presence. If the wicked party know their own great strength, they would even now have made an attack. I fear the Holy Father will suffer many tribulations before his death, for I see the black counterfeit church (http://www.opusdeialert.com/footnotes.htm) gaining ground, I see its fatal influence on the public. The distress of the Holy Father and of the Church is really so great that one ought to pray to God day and night. I have been told to pray much for the Church and the Pope...The people must pray earnestly for the extirpation (Rooting out, destruction) of the dark church." -Prophetic Vision of Anne Catherine Emmerich (1774-1824 A.D.) Augustinian Nun, Stigmatist from the book, The Life of Anne Catherine Emmerich, by Very Rev. Carl E. Schmoger, C.SS.R, Vol. ii, pages (Ibid, pages 292-293)

Quote
Quote
(Prophecy of Ven. Bernard de Bustis, 15th c.): "...near the time of the Antichrist, will come... a most violent conflict with the Roman Church such that there will be great tribulations. At this time, a schism will be produced in the bosom of the Church on the occasion of the election of the pope... there is one who will be called the true pope, but he will not be truly so. He will persecute the true pope and all those who obey him, so that the majority will declare themselves for the antipope rather than for the true pope. But this antipope will have a sad end, and the true one will remain the unique and uncontested pontiff. ..."
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 28, 2022, 03:43:01 PM

Quote
"The apostasy of the city of Rome from the vicar of Christ and its destruction by Antichrist may be thoughts so new to many Catholics, that I think it well to recite the text of theologians of greatest repute. First Malvenda, who writes expressly on the subject, states as the opinion of Ribera, Gaspar Melus, Biegas, Suarrez, Bellarmine and Bosius that Rome shall apostatise from the faith, drive away the Vicar of Christ and return to its ancient paganism. ...Then the Church shall be scattered, driven into the wilderness, and shall be for a time, as it was in the beginning, invisible hidden in catacombs, in dens, in mountains, in lurking places; for a time it shall be swept, as it were from the face of the earth. Such is the universal testimony of the Fathers of the early Church."

-Henry Edward Cardinal Manning, The Present Crisis of the Holy See, 1861


Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 28, 2022, 03:51:26 PM
Franco Bellegrandi from his book Nikita Roncalli:

Quote
In September 1958, about seven or 
eight days before the Conclave, I was at the Sanctuary of
Orope, attending one of the usual dinners at Attilio Botto’s,
a Biellese industrialist who fancied gathering around him
competent from various branches, to discuss the different
issues. That day had been invited a character I knew as a
high Masonic authority in contact with the Vatican. He told
me, driving me home, that “. . .The next Pope would not be
Siri, as it was murmured in some Roman circles, because
he was too authoritarian a cardinal. They would elect a
Pope of conciliation. The choice has already fallen on the
patriarch of Venice Roncalli. “Chosen by whom?” I
rejoined surprised. “By our Masonic representatives in the
Conclave,” responded placidly my kind escort. And then it
escaped me:

’’There are freemasons in the Conclave?” “Certainly,”
was the reply, “the Church is in our hands.” I rejoined
perplexed: “Who, then, is in charge in the Church?” After a
brief pause, the voice of my escort uttered precisely: “No
one can say where the upper echelons are. The echelons are
occult.”




Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 28, 2022, 04:10:49 PM
Maybe. He still fell into heresy by supporting and enforcing the Vatican II sect, therefore, losing any papal authority he may have had.
After much deliberation, I rescind my statement here. I still have much skepticism of the actions of Siri after the 1958 conclave, but it's clear that he was indeed elected.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Sir Percival on May 28, 2022, 04:49:06 PM
Siri theory pushers remind me of resignationists.

Benedict XVI: I’m not Pope.

Resignationist: The heck you aren’t. Yes, you are.

Benedict XVI: No, I’m not.

:fryingpan:

Siri pusher: Siri was the Pope! It was so clear.

Siri: https://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A441-Siri2.html
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: 2Vermont on May 28, 2022, 05:09:49 PM
After much deliberation, I rescind my statement here. I still have much skepticism of the actions of Siri after the 1958 conclave, but it's clear that he was indeed elected.
How did you go from writing what "may have happened in the 1958 conclave" to "it's clear he was indeed elected" in a matter of 24 hours?  What was said to convince you he was in fact elected?
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 28, 2022, 05:35:27 PM
How did you go from writing what "may have happened in the 1958 conclave" to "it's clear he was indeed elected" in a matter of 24 hours?  What was said to convince you he was in fact elected?
Review of the facts surrounding the conclave. That still doesn't excuse his accepting V2 and saying the Novus Ordo, and whether he still would've fallen from the papacy through apostasy; but the facts remain that he was elected and then was pressured into abdicating the 1958 conclave. The subsequent claims about the other conclaves are dubious. I already had some acceptance of the thesis.

It's not different from what I originally said, just rejecting the conclusion that he must have been a heretic post-Vatican 2
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Simeon on May 28, 2022, 06:35:45 PM
I have read about the "Siri thesis", and I think it's a foregone conclusion that he was elected in the conclave, but what was supposed to be so terrible (in the eyes of his enemies) about Siri being Pope, that would prompt such dire threats and blackmail?  What was he going to do that Pius XII had not already done?  To whom did he pose such a threat?  If nuclear war were on the table, the Soviets were the only ones who would have had this capability, and would have had a reason to be threatened.  Or, for some reason, did the US not want him to be elected (Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ?), and they would have been the ones to use the nukes?  Against Italy, an ostensible ally?

Or was it more a case of "because he's not Roncalli"?  Because the enemies of the Church wanted Roncalli, and that Siri's election thwarted their plans? 
According to Mary Ball Martinez, Roncalli was elected solely as a place holder for Montini. His assignment was to make Montini a cardinal. Maybe Siri would have thwarted that most essential part of the plan. Montini was the sole designate of the Jєωιѕн mob, tasked with bringing VII to completion and implementation. He was trained for this assignment from his youth, and perhaps, in a sense and through his parents, before his birth.

You can discern from the historical record that Pacelli was not tasked to bring the chickens home to roost. He was a multi-generational, long game player, softening the hierarchy, arranging things in the background, mostly without detection. Perhaps his most important assignment of all was to prevent the collegial consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart. An unbiased reading of Frere Michel quite lends itself to that hypothesis. Pacelli and Roncalli belong to the order of termites, while Montini belongs to the order of the zionist bulldozers.

Do not the facts that Siri was sidelined, and then died "in exile," create an entirely different reason why the Chair of St. Peter is vacant? Juridically, he has no successor. Only Roncalli, who stole the office, has successors.

Again, I truly believe that all de facto authority on earth today is derived not from the Father of Lights or from the Natural Law, but from usurpation. 
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Simeon on May 28, 2022, 06:44:20 PM
Is it incuмbent upon the Church to know with certainty and proof that Cardinal Siri or someone else was elected Pope and sidelined or is it enough to be able to point to promulgated heresy of claimants since death of Pope Pius XII as proof that now at this point the Church lacks a Pope? The Truth as perennially taught by the Church should be in itself a bulwark against this kind of fraudulent usurpation, no?
I think we have to point to a long game strategy, beginning with Benedict XV, which rotted out the hierarchy from within, so that when the designated bulldozer came into his usurped power, the Church (read:hierarchy) would already be long undone, and hence incapable of acting:

See Isaias 3: For behold the sovereign the Lord of hosts shall take away from Jerusalem, and from Juda the valiant and the strong, the whole strength of bread, and the whole strength of water. The strong man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the cunning man, and the ancient. The captain over fifty, and the honourable in countenance, and the counsellor, and the architect, and the skillful in eloquent speech. And I will give children to be their princes, and the effeminate shall rule over them. And the people shall rush one upon another, and every man against his neighbour: the child shall make it tumult against the ancient, and the base against the honourable.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Simeon on May 28, 2022, 06:49:49 PM
I find the Siri case very compelling but the Benedict argument weak ... and I'll come back to that later.
Juridically, BXI is a usurper; and the successor of the successor of the successor of the successor of the first usurper. He's a dog in a world of dogs eating other dogs.

Sancte Petre! Ora pro nobis!!
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 28, 2022, 07:00:20 PM
That still doesn't excuse his accepting V2 and saying the Novus Ordo, and whether he still would've fallen from the papacy through apostasy ...

Excuse?  No.  But it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not he was the legitimate pope.  Then you use the term "apostasy" incorrectly, and you continue to charge Siri with heresy without any evidence.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Simeon on May 28, 2022, 07:01:51 PM
.
An oath whose purpose is to destroy the Church would obviously not be binding. In fact, it would be a sin to observe it. This is not only common sense, it is something explicitly taught to children in 1st Communion catechism class. To say that a cardinal did not know this is absurd.

This is probably the most difficult angle of the Siri thesis. I don't know of any version of it in which Siri doesn't come out as the worst coward since Pontius Pilate. At least Pontius Pilate could claim he was a simple pagan and didn't know that Christ was God, and was threatened with his life. But Siri was threatened as a cardinal of the Catholic Church and caved in, -- as pope, no less, the vicar of Christ, with the most powerful graces of state of any human being on this planet -- and consented to hand over the reins of the Church to its worst enemies, who were psychopathic mass murderers (if you believe the hydrogen-bomb-over-Rome theory), and allowed them to take over the Church?! A cardinal, who not only had (presumably) the virtue of Faith, and should have believed that God would triumph over His enemies, but also had almost 2,000 years of history behind him to see that the Church had overcome countless such attacks and persecutions and would easily triumph over this one again? How could he think it would be a good idea to allow people threatening mass murder and/or schism to take the papacy from him?

On a certain level, I don't think it matters much whether he or Roncalli won that election. I think either one was just as bad.

And if I had to choose to be in the eternal shoes of either Pontius Pilate or Cardinal Siri, I'd choose Pontius Pilate, since he was less responsible for his actions.
I have no opinion on the Siri controversy, except I believe he was elected, and then bullied to step aside. What I do find interesting is the parallel with our Lord's Passion. Jesus was "elected Pope," or "crowned as King," by the Jews on Palm Sunday; and immediately they implemented their plan to kill Him. 

You can see the 33-year long game where they plotted His death, beginning with Herod (read:generations-long plan to capture the papacy); and then when the time was ripe - just as He was proclaimed King - they struck, and they succeeded in having Him executed as a criminal (read:election of Roncalli/VII). 

The most characteristic feature of Our Lord during His Passion, and especially with regard to the false accusations and unjust judges He encountered, is His silence. 

Christ met them with silence, and allowed them the apparent victory. 

It's just what we see now, only instead of three days, we are suffering this silence for decades. What an excruciating chastisement has befallen us.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Simeon on May 28, 2022, 07:11:07 PM
Well, I've just this over and over again how Siri was a coward ... but it's easy to do from one's armchair.  I
Could it be that the Holy Ghost stopped his mouth, because God was ready to punish the world by allowing a monstrous persecution of the Church? 

And also, he was never sworn in, correct? Would the Assistance of the Holy Ghost come upon him from the moment of election, or only after he had taken his oath? Was he come to full term, or was Siri an abortion?
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 28, 2022, 07:31:06 PM
Excuse?  No.  But it has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not he was the legitimate pope.  Then you use the term "apostasy" incorrectly, and you continue to charge Siri with heresy without any evidence.
Yes, you're right. I did misuse the term, if the Novus Ordo is not in fact a new religion. But you are also insisting that he held the Catholic faith whole and entire when his external acts show differently.

I'm just holding him to the same standards of the rest of the Novus Ordo hierarchy. If they are material heretics because they adhere to the New Religion, then so is Siri. +Lefebvre denounced V2 and the Novus Ordo, as did many others, but not Siri, so based on his actions I see someone who adhered to the Whore of Babylon.

We can speculate all day on what motivated him and whatnot. But his external acts speak otherwise.

I'm sorry Lad, but you have this penchant for discovering some conspiracy and holding to it with dogmatic vigor even when the evidence is lacking, like in this case.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Melanie on May 28, 2022, 10:04:20 PM
Yes, you're right. I did misuse the term, if the Novus Ordo is not in fact a new religion. But you are also insisting that he held the Catholic faith whole and entire when his external acts show differently.

I'm just holding him to the same standards of the rest of the Novus Ordo hierarchy. If they are material heretics because they adhere to the New Religion, then so is Siri. +Lefebvre denounced V2 and the Novus Ordo, as did many others, but not Siri, so based on his actions I see someone who adhered to the Whore of Babylon.

We can speculate all day on what motivated him and whatnot. But his external acts speak otherwise.

I'm sorry Lad, but you have this penchant for discovering some conspiracy and holding to it with dogmatic vigor even when the evidence is lacking, like in this case.
I just wonder if the evidence is so strong that Cardinal Siri was elected.  I think it’s almost self evident that someone was elected and then sidelined in order to have an invalid election of Roncalli. If it were me I wouldn’t choose to elect the Cardinal that everyone was looking to be elected to be the guy to sideline.  If I want to disappear a Pope into obscurity I pick a more obscure candidate for that position and use Cardinal Siri as a red herring.  Who that could have been idk, for my part most of the other Cardinals that I couldn’t even name to save my life would have worked.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Melanie on May 28, 2022, 10:53:47 PM
I think we have to point to a long game strategy, beginning with Benedict XV, which rotted out the hierarchy from within, so that when the designated bulldozer came into his usurped power, the Church (read:hierarchy) would already be long undone, and hence incapable of acting:

See Isaias 3: For behold the sovereign the Lord of hosts shall take away from Jerusalem, and from Juda the valiant and the strong, the whole strength of bread, and the whole strength of water. The strong man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the cunning man, and the ancient. The captain over fifty, and the honourable in countenance, and the counsellor, and the architect, and the skillful in eloquent speech. And I will give children to be their princes, and the effeminate shall rule over them. And the people shall rush one upon another, and every man against his neighbour: the child shall make it tumult against the ancient, and the base against the honourable.
The Church is a perfect society and hence perfectly capable of acting.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: 2Vermont on May 29, 2022, 05:49:53 AM
I just wonder if the evidence is so strong that Cardinal Siri was elected.  I think it’s almost self evident that someone was elected and then sidelined in order to have an invalid election of Roncalli. If it were me I wouldn’t choose to elect the Cardinal that everyone was looking to be elected to be the guy to sideline.  If I want to disappear a Pope into obscurity I pick a more obscure candidate for that position and use Cardinal Siri as a red herring.  Who that could have been idk, for my part most of the other Cardinals that I couldn’t even name to save my life would have worked.
Yes, I agree.  I think the white smoke implies something happened there, but how/why do we "know" it was Siri?  Why is it so clear that *he* was elected/how do we know without a doubt that he was elected? 
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 29, 2022, 07:07:56 AM
Could it be that the Holy Ghost stopped his mouth, because God was ready to punish the world by allowing a monstrous persecution of the Church?

And also, he was never sworn in, correct? Would the Assistance of the Holy Ghost come upon him from the moment of election, or only after he had taken his oath? Was he come to full term, or was Siri an abortion?

Well, some Pope ... I can’t recall ... stated that the elected becomes pope the moment he accepts, so before any “swearing in” or ceremonial enthronement.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 29, 2022, 07:11:06 AM
Yes, I agree.  I think the white smoke implies something happened there, but how/why do we "know" it was Siri?  Why is it so clear that *he* was elected/how do we know without a doubt that he was elected?

I’ll try to find the evidence.  All the sources indicate that it was Siri.  Paul Williams asserted that the CIA/FBI had sources in the conclave who even told them that he took the name Gregory XVII.  But multiple sources indicate that it was Siri.  Numerous sources also indicate that Siri led the early ballots of even the 1978 conclave that brought us Luciani.

If the only evidence was the white smoke, I wouldn’t be convinced ... since by itself they could have botched the procedure to generate the smoke.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Melanie on May 29, 2022, 07:52:54 AM
I’ll try to find the evidence.  All the sources indicate that it was Siri.  Paul Williams asserted that the CIA/FBI had sources in the conclave who even told them that he took the name Gregory XVII.  But multiple sources indicate that it was Siri.  Numerous sources also indicate that Siri led the early ballots of even the 1978 conclave that brought us Luciani.

If the only evidence was the white smoke, I wouldn’t be convinced ... since by itself they could have botched the procedure to generate the smoke.
The strongest evidence has got to be the docuмents of Vatican II.  The CIA and Malachi Martin are not trustworthy sources.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: josefamenendez on May 29, 2022, 08:13:48 AM
Could it be that the Holy Ghost stopped his mouth, because God was ready to punish the world by allowing a monstrous persecution of the Church?

And also, he was never sworn in, correct? Would the Assistance of the Holy Ghost come upon him from the moment of election, or only after he had taken his oath? Was he come to full term, or was Siri an abortion?
He accepted the office or else there would have not been the white smoke. There is no oath of office in the political sense
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: 2Vermont on May 29, 2022, 09:12:58 AM
The strongest evidence has got to be the docuмents of Vatican II.  The CIA and Malachi Martin are not trustworthy sources.
But, even so, that's not evidence that it had to be Siri.  If we were to liken this to a criminal case, we would need evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt.  Hearsay and conjecture isn't enough. 
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Melanie on May 29, 2022, 09:50:04 AM
But, even so, that's not evidence that it had to be Siri.  If we were to liken this to a criminal case, we would need evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt.  Hearsay and conjecture isn't enough.
Yes. After looking at the evidence proposing that it was Cardinal Siri and the people claiming that he had a successor; I lean in the direction that it was not Cardinal Siri and that this was disinformation put out by those who carried out the scheme.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 29, 2022, 09:53:13 AM
Here's the best succinct summary of all the evidence:
https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/cardinal-siri-elections/

Scortesco ... who was found burned to death in his own bed shortly after he released the info ... said it was Tedeschini in 1958.  But piecing together other evidence, it would seem that Siri was elected first, then Tedeschini as a compromise candidate (they knew he wouldn't last long ... and in fact he died of cancer a year later), who then did not accept due to his age and poor health.  That's when they rolled out Roncalli.  I believe they presented him also as a "compromise" candidate, but he was in fact their guy.

Williams' information is way too detailed to ignore.

Williams says that on the third ballot, Siri was elected and chose the name Gregory XVII.  What he doesn't quite get, not being Catholic, is that a papal name isn't chosen until one has accepted the election.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 29, 2022, 10:14:33 AM
Williams' information is way too detailed to ignore.

Williams says that on the third ballot, Siri was elected and chose the name Gregory XVII.  What he doesn't quite get, not being Catholic, is that a papal name isn't chosen until one has accepted the election.

Williams then says that despite his being threatened into changing his mind, on the fouth ballot Siri again had the votes to be elected pope.  So the Cardinals were insistent upon Siri, despite his (probably to them mysterious) acceptance and then refusal.  According to Williams then, after the fourth ballot, the French Cardinals "annulled the results" [not sure how they would have done that ... maybe saying that he's already refused to accept once].  Then after that they elected Tedeschini as a compromise candidate, but he did not accept due to his age and ill health.  Then finally, on the fourth day, they rolled out Roncalli.  Roncalli too was said to be a compromise candidate do to HIS age and poor health, but he lasted long enough to appoint Montini a cardinal, call Vatican II, and suppress the Third Secret.

Many have said that Pius XII was slowly poisoned to death, as they wanted to get rid of him before 1960, when the Third Secret was to have been revealed.

Williams is an interesting source.  This information is way too detailed to be dismissed as just fiction.  Also, it appears in a footnote in his book and is mentioned just in passing.  If he were fabricating it, it would seem to me that he would have emphasized it more rather than burying it in a footnote.  Initially he listed the specific declassified docuмents in the footnote, but at some point tons of people were contacting him about it and in a later edition he changed it to just "FBI Source".  I myself paid a visit to the National Archives in an attempt to find the docuмents, but they were nowhere to be found.  Probably de-de-classified by then and removed from the National Archives.  I just don't believe Williams simply made that up, given the detail in there, about what happened on each ballot, about the papal name Gregory XVII, about the subsquent election of Tedeschini (which Scortesco confrimed).  Perhaps one day these docuмents will see the light of day ... if they haven't been destroyed.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 29, 2022, 10:28:06 AM
I'm sorry Lad, but you have this penchant for discovering some conspiracy and holding to it with dogmatic vigor even when the evidence is lacking, like in this case.

Only someone who's ignorant about his issue (or else doesn't WANT to openly consider it) could claim that "the evidence is lacking".  Read the link from schismatic-home-aloner.com that I posted above.  There are multiple sources corroborating the same information:  Scortesco (in a position to know and was found burned to death in his bed shortly after publishing it), Paul Williams (not a Catholic, who simply mentions it in passing in his book, citing specific declassified docuмents and explaning in great detail what happened ballot by ballot ... information that could only be obtained by sources inside the conclave ... and both the US and USSR probably had sources), and then Malachi Martin.  Then you combine that with what actually happened with the white smoke / black smoke, and the destruction of the Church that ensued, and the evidence is nearly overwhelming.  You throw in Bellegrandi's assertion that the Masons knew they would elect Roncalli before the conclave ... and combine that with the descruction that Roncalli (and Montini) wreaked on the Church (which is not possible for a legitimately elected pope).  Roncalli's first missive as Pope referred cryptically to a "mysterious force" rising, and "mysterious force" is the old name of Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, and in his "prophets of gloom and doom" speech, Roncali said that the Church was about to enter a "new order of things" (Masonic language).  There's evidence that Roncalli was inducted into the Masonic lodges, and Masonic publications around the world hailed his election as being the dawn of a New Age.

It is absolutely absurd to claim that there's no evidence.  Uncharacteristically of you, you've latched onto a contempt for Siri because he accepted Vatican II and the NOM and you are filtering out the evidence, which is substantial and real.  This is NOT just a fanciful narrative based on the smoke signals.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 29, 2022, 12:15:12 PM
It is absolutely absurd to claim that there's no evidence.  Uncharacteristically of you, you've latched onto a contempt for Siri because he accepted Vatican II and the NOM and you are filtering out the evidence, which is substantial and real.  This is NOT just a fanciful narrative based on the smoke signals.
I already said that I agree that it appears he was elected in 1958. Must I keep repeating that? There is no contempt here.

But 2V brings up some good points here related to our sources:
But, even so, that's not evidence that it had to be Siri.  If we were to liken this to a criminal case, we would need evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt.  Hearsay and conjecture isn't enough.

As to contextualize the uncharacteristic rejection of some points of this: in the past few weeks I've become increasingly disturbed  by the traditionalist adherence to some form of conspiracy-gnosticism. As if your trad cred relies on what level of gnosis you've attained by acceptance of various cօռspιʀαcιҽs. It's become absurd and entirely vexing.

These came to mind today during Mass:
"And I have given my heart to know prudence, and learning, and errors, and folly: and I have perceived that in these also there was labour, and vexation of spirit," [Ecclesiastes 1:17]

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears:" [2 Timothy 4:3]
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 29, 2022, 01:06:42 PM
I already said that I agree that it appears he was elected in 1958. Must I keep repeating that? There is no contempt here.

Then you later said there's a lack of evidence, when in fact the only thing we're missing is a smoking gun.  And this scenario makes sense of the entire Crisis, that this was not a case of a few wishy-washy liberal types who just happened to get elected pope, and while meaning well just unwittingly wrecked the Church.  So we're not even looking at the 1958 / 1963 scenarios in isolation but rather how it fits in with everything.  I don't think there's any reasonable doubt that this is what happened.

Now, I also believe that Pius XII was gradually poisoned to death, but for this there is indeed a lack of evidence, just circuмstantial stuff and the cui bono and the motive.  But for the Siri case, we have multiple independent sources confirming that this is what happened:  Scortesco, Williams, Malachi Martin, and (peripherally) Bellegrandi.  If I had to put a number to it, I'd say that it's 99.9% certain that Siri was elected, accepted, and was threaened into resigning.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Yeti on May 29, 2022, 04:18:20 PM
From the article that Ladislaus posted, this point seems highly problematic to me:


Quote
The mystery behind the white smoke and the secret post-election meeting of the 1958 Conclave may not have been uncovered if it were not for Mr. Scortesco.  Scortesco was the cousin of two members of the Vatican’s Noble Guard, including the President of the Noble Guard, which was responsible for guarding the conclaves of 1958 and 1963 and making sure that no communication occurred with the outside.  Scortesco revealed the following in a published letter:
Quote
Scortesco: “In the case of John XXIII (1958) and of Paul VI (1963), there were communications with the outside.  It was thus known that there were several ballots in the first conclave [1958] which resulted in the election of Cardinal Tedeschini and in the second [1963], Cardinal Siri.” (Excerpt from the French Newsletter, Introibo, No. 61, July-August-September, 1988, Association Noel Pinot, Angers, France, p. 3.)


The problem I have with this is that the cardinals are not allowed to communicate with the outside, and in fact are prisoners until the new pope is announced. So this guy Scortesco is claiming that his cousins (including the President of security) violated their most sacred duty to ensure the integrity of the papal election.

It's certainly possible for anyone to do any wicked act, but this seems really hard to believe. These people were Italian nobility, people of high ideals, who had promised to defend the pope. And obviously they would have been ready to give their life for him. To say that they would betray the papacy in this manner would be like saying the Secret Service would betray the president of this country. Such a thing has never happened in the history of this country. And the noble guard are motivated not just by a natural patriotism, but by a supernatural devotion to the vicar of Christ. The thought of them allowing the conclave to be violated just doesn't seem likely.

It's like the Swiss Guards, whom they work with as the pope's bodyguard. The Swiss Guards are ready to die for the pope. Just read what those guys did to protect Pius IX during the masonic invasion of Rome, and try to imagine any of them allowing people to come in and threaten to murder a newly elected pope. I realize that this is a century later, but these weren't modernist clergy, they were laypeople who had been little affected by modernism.

On top of all of that, if this guy really had been guilty of such a disgraceful treachery, why would he have told Scortesco about such a thing? That doesn't make any sense either.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Yeti on May 29, 2022, 04:56:53 PM
There is a rather strange docuмent circulating the internet that appears to be the docuмent that Paul Williams referred to, assuming it exists at all, and assuming Paul Williams didn't make it up and assuming the image itself is authentic.

Ladislaus, this might be what you were looking for in the National Archives. I have no idea what the provenance of this image is, or where it came from, or anything like that. I do not vouch for its authenticity in any way.

Regardless, the image itself sure is wild:


(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IPuXHF4g4tM/Wm58nYgMdHI/AAAAAAAAAlg/hcSYrNYFwh4xQZ8ANvmb5y4uRVAvITl1QCLcBGAs/s640/Scan4.jpg)
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 29, 2022, 05:22:10 PM
Quote
The problem I have with this is that the cardinals are not allowed to communicate with the outside, and in fact are prisoners until the new pope is announced.
The Modernist masonic cardinals don't give 1 hooey about vows to God; their job is to infiltrate, conquer and control the papacy at all costs.  The masons were infiltrating the church probably 100 years before the 1950s (Pope Pius IX was imprisoned in the vatican, remember?).



Quote
So this guy Scortesco is claiming that his cousins (including the President of security) violated their most sacred duty to ensure the integrity of the papal election.
The italian nobles/security team don't take the papal election vows of secrecy that Cardinals do.  Secondly, these "whistleblowers" are actually defending the papacy by showing the corruption that happened during the 58 conclave.  Thirdly, these non-cardinals can only do so much to ensure the integrity of the conclave.  Their job is extremely focused - make sure non-cardinals don't get in/out.  No one can stop a conspiracy of cardinals, working together, with a planned way of communicating to the outside.  Up until that point in history, not only was such a thing unexpected but the technology didn't exist to monitor everyone at all times...especially if you didn't expect such masonic cardinals to be so bold.

Quote
It's certainly possible for anyone to do any wicked act, but this seems really hard to believe. These people were Italian nobility, people of high ideals, who had promised to defend the pope. And obviously they would have been ready to give their life for him. To say that they would betray the papacy in this manner would be like saying the Secret Service would betray the president of this country. Such a thing has never happened in the history of this country. And the noble guard are motivated not just by a natural patriotism, but by a supernatural devotion to the vicar of Christ. The thought of them allowing the conclave to be violated just doesn't seem likely.
You're assuming that ALLOWED the conclave to be violated.  Not only does charity assume the contrary, but common sense tells us that the enemy they were dealing with (i.e. masons) are a highly-prepared, powerful, and uniquely sophisticated.  I'm sure security did everything in their power to stop leaks, but the masons were 2-3 steps ahead of them.


Quote
It's like the Swiss Guards, whom they work with as the pope's bodyguard. The Swiss Guards are ready to die for the pope. Just read what those guys did to protect Pius IX during the masonic invasion of Rome, and try to imagine any of them allowing people to come in and threaten to murder a newly elected pope. I realize that this is a century later, but these weren't modernist clergy, they were laypeople who had been little affected by modernism.
The Swiss Guards aren't INSIDE the conclave.  Those who threatened Siri WERE THE MASONIC CARDINALS THEMSELVES (the French/German Cardinals were, are still, the most modernist).  The masonic cardinals threatened Siri before the conclave ended formally, because they knew Siri would abide by the vow of silence.

Quote
On top of all of that, if this guy really had been guilty of such a disgraceful treachery, why would he have told Scortesco about such a thing? That doesn't make any sense either.
How is it treachery to expose the infiltration of the papacy?  :confused:  I don't follow your logic.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Yeti on May 29, 2022, 05:29:02 PM
Pax, the cardinals are imprisoned in the conclave. The noble guard are their wardens. It is the job of the noble guard to prevent the cardinals from communicating with the outside or vice versa, just as much as it is the job of a regular prison warden to prevent prisoners from communicating with the outside of vice versa.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 29, 2022, 05:31:15 PM

Quote
Pax, the cardinals are imprisoned in the conclave. The noble guard are their wardens. It is the job of the noble guard to prevent the cardinals from communicating with the outside or vice versa, just as much as it is the job of a regular prison warden to prevent prisoners from communicating with the outside of vice versa.
That's a horrible analogy.  The better analogy is where the US President meets in the oval office, and discuss classified docuмents while the secret service stands outside the doors, not knowing what's going on inside.  You can protect someone without being in the same room.  The noble guard are NOT inside the conclave.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Yeti on May 29, 2022, 05:35:14 PM
Oh, and it would have been part of their job to search the cardinals' luggage to prevent them from having walkie-talkies or something similar (again: prison). I remember in the 2005 "conclave" when JP2 died, it had been 25 years since the last "conclave", and technology had traveled light-years since JP2 had been elected in 1978. I remember all the discussion and news articles about how the noble guard would search the cardinals for cell phones, and run bug-sweepers all up and down the Sistine chapel and the cardinals' living quarters, and I believe they even ran cell signal jammers from inside the Sistine chapel to prevent anyone from being able to use a cell phone even if they had smuggled one in.

That's how a conclave works. The cardinals are literally locked inside and not allowed to come out until they announce the pope. They are literal prisoners until then.

So, if someone got out, that means one of the prison guards betrayed his duty.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Yeti on May 29, 2022, 05:46:07 PM
That's a horrible analogy.  The better analogy is where the US President meets in the oval office, and discuss classified docuмents while the secret service stands outside the doors, not knowing what's going on inside.  You can protect someone without being in the same room.  The noble guard are NOT inside the conclave.
No, the Secret Service does not prevent the president from communicating with the outside. They are standing guard outside. On the other hand, the noble guard is responsible for preventing anyone from going into or out of the conclave, and also to prevent the cardinals from communicating with the outside.

The reason for this is precisely to prevent the sort of situation we are discussing with Siri, namely that some outside force threatened him to resign.

Yes, the noble guard are not privy to what happens in the conclave, that is correct.

The problem here is that Scortesco claims that the cardinals communicated with the outside during the conclave. The noble guard's job was to prevent this; evidently they didn't do their job, according to Scortesco.

Sure, it could have been that they could have gone in there with their plans already set in advance, and then simply activated them when Siri was elected, but that's not what is claimed.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 29, 2022, 05:47:22 PM
Yeti,
The Cardinals aren't the only ones in the Vatican...When the voting is happening, it's just the Cardinals inside the Sistine Chapel.  At night, when everyone goes to sleep, they have separate rooms (they don't sleep on cots in the Sistine chapel).  The vatican is 1,000s and 1,000s of sq ft large.  And when everyone retires for the night, the Cardinals have assistants (especially the elderly ones) who help them on all kinds of matters.


Quote
So, if someone got out, that means one of the prison guards betrayed his duty.
??  How about no Cardinal "got out" but they passed a message to one of the vatican guards, who then passed it to someone outside.  Are you honestly naive enough to think that the masons didn't also infiltrate part of Vatican security?
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 29, 2022, 05:49:41 PM

Quote
The problem here is that Scortesco claims that the cardinals communicated with the outside during the conclave. The noble guard's job was to prevent this; evidently they didn't do their job, according to Scortesco.
Exactly.  The masons infiltrated the Cardinals but they can't infiltrate a security team?  It only takes 1 leak by 1 man.  1 cardinal passes notes to 1 security guard to communicate with the outside.  This kind of thing has been going on since the beginning of time.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Yeti on May 29, 2022, 05:54:00 PM
Exactly.  The masons infiltrated the Cardinals but they can't infiltrate a security team?  It only takes 1 leak by 1 man.  1 cardinal passes notes to 1 security guard to communicate with the outside.  This kind of thing has been going on since the beginning of time.
I'm confused. You said earlier:

Quote
You're assuming they ALLOWED the conclave to be violated.  Not only does charity assume the contrary, but common sense tells us that the enemy they were dealing with (i.e. masons) are a highly-prepared, powerful, and uniquely sophisticated.  I'm sure security did everything in their power to stop leaks, but the masons were 2-3 steps ahead of them.

So do you think the noble guard betrayed their trust to protect the conclave or didn't you?

Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 29, 2022, 06:00:12 PM

Quote
So do you think the noble guard betrayed their trust to protect the conclave or didn't you?
Not the ones related to the guy were talking about.  Again, there only needs to be 1 leaker/mason out of 100 security men.  But there were likely far more.


You chastised the guys who were "whistleblowers", saying they should respect the papacy (implying they took some sort of vow of silence).  I was just saying that a "normal person's" reaction to finding fraud is to expose it.  And since the noble guard has seen the ill effects of the infiltration, they are speaking out.  They didn't take a vow of silence, so their reaction is normal and brave.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Yeti on May 29, 2022, 06:19:41 PM
Not the ones related to the guy were talking about.  Again, there only needs to be 1 leaker/mason out of 100 security men.  But there were likely far more.


You chastised the guys who were "whistleblowers", saying they should respect the papacy (implying they took some sort of vow of silence).  I was just saying that a "normal person's" reaction to finding fraud is to expose it.  And since the noble guard has seen the ill effects of the infiltration, they are speaking out.  They didn't take a vow of silence, so their reaction is normal and brave.
Oh, I see the problem. When I talked about respecting the papacy, I wasn't implying they did something wrong by violating an oath of secrecy in the conclave. You are correct that they have no such oath. I was talking about not protecting the integrity of the papal election.

Yes, it would be brave to expose a security breach in their own security force, but I question why such a breach happened in the first place.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 29, 2022, 06:33:58 PM
Quote
Yes, it would be brave to expose a security breach in their own security force, but I question why such a breach happened in the first place.
Ok, gotcha.  Well, breaches happen when infiltrators have enough people on their side.  If you read the book "the Rhine flows into the Tiber" the journalist who covered V2 docuмents how a small, well-organized collection of Cardinals (i.e 20-30%), who had infiltrators in key positions, were able to blind-side the orthodox cardinals with their bold liberalism to get "the votes" to approve the many heretical docuмents.


This journalist explains that there would be a draft docuмent voted on, which were very orthodox, but the next day, the head of the committee (the masons were head of the most important committees) that was responsible for the draft, came back with "updates" which were the quasi-heresies we know today.  The orthodox majority was given only a few hours to read/comprehend the "updates" before a vote was called.  Many times the orthodox cardinals objected and a re-draft was written that night (by the assistants of the committee heads, who were masons).  The next day, the orthodox cardinals had to re-read the entire (long-winded) docuмent and object the many quasi-heresies therein.  When the liberals removed 1 heresy, they inserted 3 more.  It was a never-ending game of legalism and lies.  Most V2 docuмents barely passed by a majority vote.  Not at all like all historical ecuмenical councils of the past.

So when you question why/how a breach happened, I think you woefully underestimate the enemy you're dealing with.  It would be akin to asking "How did the C1@ know I wrote this in an email?"  They know much, much more than you think.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Nadir on May 29, 2022, 08:13:16 PM

Quote
The Rhine Flows into the Tiber, the journalist
Fr Ralph M. Wiltgen, S.V.D. is a must read.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: 2Vermont on May 30, 2022, 05:52:40 AM
As to contextualize the uncharacteristic rejection of some points of this: in the past few weeks I've become increasingly disturbed  by the traditionalist adherence to some form of conspiracy-gnosticism. As if your trad cred relies on what level of gnosis you've attained by acceptance of various cօռspιʀαcιҽs. It's become absurd and entirely vexing.

I've noticed this as well.  Doctrine-related debates have clearly taken a back seat. 
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 30, 2022, 07:15:24 AM
There is a rather strange docuмent circulating the internet that appears to be the docuмent that Paul Williams referred to, assuming it exists at all, and assuming Paul Williams didn't make it up and assuming the image itself is authentic.

Ladislaus, this might be what you were looking for in the National Archives. I have no idea what the provenance of this image is, or where it came from, or anything like that. I do not vouch for its authenticity in any way.

Regardless, the image itself sure is wild:


(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IPuXHF4g4tM/Wm58nYgMdHI/AAAAAAAAAlg/hcSYrNYFwh4xQZ8ANvmb5y4uRVAvITl1QCLcBGAs/s640/Scan4.jpg)

I saw this one while I was there, but it’s not what Williams cited.  Those docuмents are no longer available.  I have a hard time believing that Williams made it up.  He gave exact details regarding the type of docuмent, the date, and the declassification date.  I doubt someone would go to the trouble of fabricating those dates, especially for a point that wasn’t that important in his text but was just mentioned in passing and which Williams clearly didn’t think was particularly important ... as not being Catholic he didn’t really understand its theological implications.  I think that either he had another source outside the Archives or that someone disappeared them.  Security there is a bit lax.  I probably could have secretly destroyed a docuмent without getting caught if I wanted to.  You checked out these folders that had many docuмents in them and they would not know if one was missing when you returned it.  I’m guessing they’re just copies in the first place and not the originals.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 30, 2022, 07:17:05 AM
I've noticed this as well.  Doctrine-related debates have clearly taken a back seat.
Probably because they've come to a point where they can't proceed because they're not meant to be solved by laymen. There's only so many times you can explain how the problem with the Pope question is not about recognizing and deposing a heretical Pope but the indefectibility of the Church before it becomes stale.

So, rather than discuss devotions or something of spiritual benefit, we discuss the world and therefore fall under its influence once more. Which comes with this gnostic attitude where you have to accept some theory about the particulars of why the world is going to hell, showing how "in the know" you are, when that why is one of the basic, fundamental truths of Catholic teaching.

I've noticed that devotional threads are also some of the least popular on any Catholic forum I've been on. Those kinds of threads save souls, not ones about the particulars of the world. People give MHFM a lot of grief, but their content has at least begun to help me out of this fruitless rut.

Tomorrow starts the month of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. I'm thinking I should take a month away and meditate on His Heart to settle my soul.

Alright, I'll get off my soapbox now.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Miser Peccator on May 30, 2022, 08:29:03 AM
Probably because they've come to a point where they can't proceed because they're not meant to be solved by laymen. There's only so many times you can explain how the problem with the Pope question is not about recognizing and deposing a heretical Pope but the indefectibility of the Church before it becomes stale.

So, rather than discuss devotions or something of spiritual benefit, we discuss the world and therefore fall under its influence once more. Which comes with this gnostic attitude where you have to accept some theory about the particulars of why the world is going to hell, showing how "in the know" you are, when that why is one of the basic, fundamental truths of Catholic teaching.

I've noticed that devotional threads are also some of the least popular on any Catholic forum I've been on. Those kinds of threads save souls, not ones about the particulars of the world. People give MHFM a lot of grief, but their content has at least begun to help me out of this fruitless rut.

Tomorrow starts the month of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. I'm thinking I should take a month away and meditate on His Heart to settle my soul.

Alright, I'll get off my soapbox now.

I think you make some good observations here, DL.

I know I make mostly posts about the world and that is because God put people in my life who showed me the plans which are unfolding so I feel it's my duty to warn others.  The amount of information people need to understand is vast and complicated and that takes many posts. 

I don't like scaring others but people should be warned so they can try to take whatever actions may be necessary to avoid traps.

With our enemy closing in on every side, I think about St Joseph with Mary and the newborn baby Jesus in Bethlehem.

St Joseph was given information that they were coming to kill the baby and he was able to make the escape in time.  If he hadn't been forewarned he wouldn't have been able to get Mary and the Babe out of there in time.

Of course it was never in the plans of the Holy Family to hit the road with a newborn and head to a foreign country!  They only did so because they knew of the grave dangers if they had stayed and St Joseph took decisive action.

Trads may need to get out of the smart cities and find places to hide out with their children.

Sometimes fear and anxiety are telling us we need to take action.  God gave us these strong emotions to help save our lives when there is danger.  Of course action should only be done after prayer and with a calm mind.

Also, in the end days there will be many deceivers and deceptions so we need to be on our toes with regards to who we trust.

But without God we can do nothing, and our relationship to Him comes first so thanks for pointing that out!

I pray often to St Joseph and ask him to help the Catholic fathers find ways to protect their families.  He has answered so many prayers for me so I know that he will guide you and all the dads at Cathinfo as well.





Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 30, 2022, 10:36:36 AM
Yes, you're right. I did misuse the term, if the Novus Ordo is not in fact a new religion. But you are also insisting that he held the Catholic faith whole and entire when his external acts show differently.

Indeed the Novus Ordo is a new religion, but it's different than other non-Catholic religions in that it's masquerading as the Catholic Church, and for that reason it's entirely possible for there to be real Catholics in the Novus Ordo who are in material error because they've mis-identified it as the Catholic Church.  Catholics who remain in communion with the Conciliar hierarchy are NOT the same thing as a Catholic who runs off to join up with the Orthodox.  They're simply not in the same category.  Some people who don't see eye to eye with the Conciliar Church feel obliged to remain united to it precisely because they have the faith still and know that it's essential to belong to the Church.  So they have the proper formal motive but are in material error.  When SVs start sliding into this mentality that anyone who doesn't leave the NO is outside the Church, that can lead to a schismatic mentality and it's incredibly dangerous.

I never said that he necessarily kept Catholic faith, nor have I seen evidence that he has not.  You're the one making the allegation that he has not, and yet you've failed to provide any evidence that he has not other than merely remaining in union with the Conciliar hierarchy and acknowledging them as such.  R&R do the same thing, they acknowledge the Conciliar hierarchy as legitimate, but they've concluded that despite this they're not required to remain in communion with the Conciliar hierarchy.  Other people have decided otherwise.  And actually, from the SV perspective, the latter in fact have the more formally Catholic position.

Your only argument has been -- Siri recognized the V2 Popes and said the NOM, therefore not Catholic.  That's an extremely dangerous and problematic position to take.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 30, 2022, 10:50:27 AM
As to contextualize the uncharacteristic rejection of some points of this: in the past few weeks I've become increasingly disturbed  by the traditionalist adherence to some form of conspiracy-gnosticism. As if your trad cred relies on what level of gnosis you've attained by acceptance of various cօռspιʀαcιҽs. It's become absurd and entirely vexing.

Please cite other examples of "trad adherence to conspiracy-gnosticism" besides this one.  And your allegation is nonsense.  Nobody says you're less of a Traditional Catholic if you don't believe in the Siri thesis or don't believe in the jab conspiracy or even if you don't believe that the h0Ɩ0cαųst was a hoax.  You just don't like the Siri theory and so now you're making these absurd generalizations about "trad conspiracy-gnosticism".

If you don't care about the Siri theory, then don't bother posting about it.

And this has nothing to do with any laymen thinking they're going to "solve" or "fix" the crisis.  It has everything to do with how, in good conscience, we navigate our way through it without wrecking the faith.  Trads have abandoned the Church (and, for instance, gone Orthodox) because ... considering Bergoglio to be the pope ... they've lost faith in the claims of the Catholic Church entirely.  R&R have developed an ecclesiology where anything but the non-infallible Magisterium is up for grabs and fair game.  Some people don't like to see the reputation of the Holy Catholic Church dragged through the mud by Catholics themselves.

Siri Theory is the best explanation I have run across to explain what has been happening, and there's plenty of evidence for it.  If you don't like it and think it's a waste of time, then don't bother posting on it.  If you feel your time is better spent watching silent movies than discussing these issues, no one is forcing you to participate.  Just move along and ignore it.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 30, 2022, 11:36:33 AM

Quote
I have a hard time believing that Williams made it up.  He gave exact details regarding the type of docuмent, the date, and the declassification date.  I doubt someone would go to the trouble of fabricating those dates, especially for a point that wasn’t that important in his text but was just mentioned in passing and which Williams clearly didn’t think was particularly important ... as not being Catholic he didn’t really understand its theological implications.
From my understanding, Williams was FBI (or some US govt official) who was investigating Communism (it was the 1950s remember).  So, the US govt was keeping tabs on foreign officials who might be "red" (i.e. the modernist satanic Cardinals who threatened Siri).  For the US govt to monitor the papal election is quite plausible and logical, for the pope is the head of a major country of influence and the US govt had to make sure that Russian influences did not grow and influence the rest of europe.


There would be no reason for Williams to lie about this because a) it wasn't a major point in his book, b) it neither proves/disproves the larger point that Communism was growing beyond Russia and c) his point had nothing to do with catholicism or religion.  He has no agenda but is a disinterested third-party...the most reliable of proofs.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 30, 2022, 11:45:00 AM
From my understanding, Williams was FBI (or some US govt official) who was investigating Communism (it was the 1950s remember).  So, the US govt was keeping tabs on foreign officials who might be "red" (i.e. the modernist satanic Cardinals who threatened Siri).  For the US govt to monitor the papal election is quite plausible and logical, for the pope is the head of a major country of influence and the US govt had to make sure that Russian influences did not grow and influence the rest of europe.


There would be no reason for Williams to lie about this because a) it wasn't a major point in his book, b) it neither proves/disproves the larger point that Communism was growing beyond Russia and c) his point had nothing to do with catholicism or religion.  He has no agenda but is a disinterested third-party...the most reliable of proofs.

Right, and I just don't buy that he would make up Docuмent Name, docuмent date, docuмent declassification date just out of whole cloth.  Since it wasn't a major point in his book, he could have just said, "FBI sources indicate" ... which he in fact did do in a later edition.  Evidently a fair number of people were trying to contact him about the docuмents, and I think he was getting annoyed and also could have been told they were being re-classified and were only de-classified by mistake.

Just as the Commies had agents inside the conclave, you can be sure that the US did also.  Either that or the US had sources inside the Commie circles and got the info that way.  Why would he bother to state a detail such as that Siri took the name Gregory XVII if he didn't have info to that effect?  As a non-Catholic, he probably had little idea about the significance of it but was just parrotting back what he read in the actual source.  Of course, it's very significant for Catholics because choosing a papal name is only done after accepting the election.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 30, 2022, 12:26:49 PM
Quote
in the past few weeks I've become increasingly disturbed  by the traditionalist adherence to some form of conspiracy-gnosticism.
I'm on the complete opposite spectrum.  I'm increasingly disturbed by most Trads I know who *still* reject most cօռspιʀαcιҽs.  They won't even entertain the idea they are possible.  This is complete brainwashing. 


We just lived through 1.5 years of the Covid hoax, one of the most pre-planned, globally organized, and internationally funded hoaxes in human history, where 70% of population was lied to, coerced, forced and manipulated to take an experimental jab.  Every level of society was involved to perpetrate this mass psychotic brainwashing -

1.  govts at all levels (global, national, state, city....executive, legislative, judicial branches),
2.  media at all levels,
3.  major corporations at all levels (Food, manufacturing, insurance, financial, etc etc,
4.  non-profit orgs at all levels,
5.  Healthcare businesses at all levels,
6.  Every major "church" organization (catholic, protestant, Jєωιѕн, etc)
7.  Every major sport organization in the world 

To put it another way, looking at the above list...Is there ANY area of society that isn't controlled by satan and his freemasonic minions?  Covid pulled the curtain back and let us look our enemies right in the eye (at least for those who WANT to see reality).  If they could pull off Covid...what is their limit?  How could any conspiracy be off the table, at least as a possibility?

We shouldn't accept any story at face value; we should research all things, especially cօռspιʀαcιҽs.  But at this point in history, facing the organized and globally-controlling enemy of our day, NO conspiracy can be brushed aside without research.  How can anyone who is honest put limits on what these evil men are capable of?  If God was not in charge, and if He was not putting limits on the extent to which satan could control/tempt us to despair, we can say, as did King David:

Have mercy on me, O God, for man hath trodden me under foot; all the day long he hath afflicted me fighting against me.
My enemies have trodden on me all the day long; for they are many that make war against me.
From the height of the day I shall fear: but I will trust in thee.
In God I will praise my words, in God I have put my trust: I will not fear what flesh can do against me.  (Ps 55)




Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 30, 2022, 01:07:18 PM
I'm on the complete opposite spectrum.  I'm increasingly disturbed by most Trads I know who *still* reject most cօռspιʀαcιҽs.  They won't even entertain the idea they are possible.  This is complete brainwashing. 

I agree, and I don't really believe that DL believes this, that there aren't some very real and significant cօռspιʀαcιҽs in motion.  I honestly think he just doesn't like the Siri Theory.  That is why I asked for others that he objects to.

We saw this with the SSPX and a few SV priests who not only, IMO, misapplied "remote material cooperation" to the jab, but the same ones who thought it was OK to get it absolutely refused to consider the larger context of what the powers that be were trying to accomplish with the jab ... likely because they didn't want to come off LOOKING like "conspiracy kooks".

People are being brainwashed and programmed as part of the conspiracy agenda, and it's very important to expose them in the early stages so that people are not susceptible to being trapped won the road after they had been led down certain paths.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 30, 2022, 01:09:50 PM
And if all we had for the Siri theory was some narrative about the white smoke and a bit of blarney from Malachi Martin, I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in it.  I wouldn't rule it out, but I wouldn't be convinced either.  But there's just way too much evidence to dismiss this, and given that it explains a lot (has an obvious motive, cui bono, etc.) ... I'm convinced that it is precisely what happened.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 30, 2022, 01:22:58 PM
I agree, and I don't really believe that DL believes this, that there aren't some very real and significant cօռspιʀαcιҽs in motion.  I honestly think he just doesn't like the Siri Theory.  That is why I asked for others that he objects to.
Nope, you're putting words into my writings. It has nothing to do with the Siri theory in itself. Just the conspiracy stuff in general. It is a fixation among many of you. Yes, there is truth to many of them, but they should not be our primary concern and focus. Miser understood this and 2V understood this. It's almost become a false, second gospel to some.

Quote
We saw this with the SSPX and a few SV priests who not only, IMO, misapplied "remote material cooperation" to the jab, but the same ones who thought it was OK to get it absolutely refused to consider the larger context of what the powers that be were trying to accomplish with the jab ... likely because they didn't want to come off LOOKING like "conspiracy kooks"

This is a good example of what I'm talking about. They don't have the same level of "gnosis" as you on the Agenda, so they're suspect. Maybe God has blinded them for their errors and heresies? God only knows.

Quote
People are being brainwashed and programmed as part of the conspiracy agenda, and it's very important to expose them in the early stages so that people are not susceptible to being trapped won the road after they had been led down certain paths.
Again, I'm not denying there is an agenda. Scripture told us what would happen at the end of time. If Siri is a part of that, then so be it. "For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way." [2 Thessalonians 2:7]

That people would even be brainwashed: "And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:" [2 Thessalonians 2:10]

Even the Jєωιѕн conspiracy is scriptural: "and thou art blasphemed by them that say they are Jews and are not, but are the ѕуηαgσgυє of Satan." [Apocalypse 2:9]

There are cօռspιʀαcιҽs, there always have been, even at the time of Our Lord. But having this fixation on them, as I have realized, is not overall beneficial to our spiritual well-being.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 30, 2022, 01:41:13 PM
Nope, you're putting words into my writings. It has nothing to do with the Siri theory in itself. Just the conspiracy stuff in general. It is a fixation among many of you. Yes, there is truth to many of them, but they should not be our primary concern and focus. Miser understood this and 2V understood this. It's almost become a false, second gospel to some.

I'm not putting words into anything, just interpreting your reaction.  You've not hesitated before to join in on "conspiracy theory" discussion ... until now.  And this nebulous claim that this discussion is our "primary concern and focus" is absurd.  How can you possibly know that?  Just because someone is interested in certain topics and join in when the subject comes up doesn't make it their "primary concern and focus".  I don't know that I have ever STARTED a thread on the Siri theory, but if I have it hasn't been often.  You can read that my primary focuses have been on theology, and within theology, the question of EENS and then second the SV/SP/R&R debate.  So sue me if I'm interested in these topics, and I'm also interested in things like Globalist cօռspιʀαcιҽs, the Plandemic, the jab, etc ... when these things have been affecting our lives lately.  I'm not interested in silent movies and less iterested in some other topics that are brought up here.

But this notion that conspiracy theories are "our primary concern and focus" and that we hold it up as a litimus test for being a real Traditional Catholics ... those charges are completely unfounded ... and, if they were true, you would need to know a lot more about us than basing it on which topics we happen to interest us on a discussion forum.

So if anyone is "putting words into my writings," that would be you here with this charge.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 30, 2022, 01:48:41 PM
Quote
But having this fixation on them, as I have realized, is not overall beneficial to our spiritual well-being.
Fixating on anything is not good.  In our day, constantly talking about cօռspιʀαcιҽs is like former times, when people constantly talked about the weather, or local news, or town gossip etc.  It is THE topic of the day.  We are living in a war (a 70+ years "information war" that is morphing into an actual war between the elites and us).  cօռspιʀαcιҽs are part of the information war, like it or not.


Scripture tells us to be "wise as serpents and simple as doves".  Knowing and understanding your enemy and his tactics is not the same as giving into fear or spiritual despair.  One can do the former without the latter.  One's hope in God should actually increase by seeing the depths of depravity and evil that exists in the world and realizing how much God has spared us from the same and kept us safe from such dangers.  When we see the power and majesty of evils all around us, it should give us pause to think that all these demonic spirits and evil men are simple, created beings.  And God's power and majesty is infinitely greater and unfathomably supreme in comparison.  When we stare into the darkness of the abyss of sin, evil and hatred, we should realize that much more how bright is God's holiness, purity and love.  At least that's how I look at it.

Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on May 30, 2022, 02:03:30 PM
So be it. I've said my piece.

"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet." [Matthew 10:14]
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Pax Vobis on May 30, 2022, 02:05:34 PM
:facepalm:
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on May 30, 2022, 02:51:55 PM
"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet." [Matthew 10:14]

I hope that you're not trying to equate your comments on an internet forum with Apostolic preaching.  ;)
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on June 02, 2022, 04:59:01 PM
I hope that you're not trying to equate your comments on an internet forum with Apostolic preaching.  ;)
Absolutely not lol. I wanted to quote Luke 4:24, but I thought that would imply the same so I opted for Matt. 10:14 :laugh1:

Back on topic, I'm breaking my silence because I, providentially perhaps, came across this video today which has an excerpt where Br. Peter addresses the Siri thesis which aligns exactly with the problems I was trying to articulate that I have with the thesis.

14:55 to 19:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0WHaePbmzM&t=1359s
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Pax Vobis on June 02, 2022, 07:00:22 PM
Br Peter makes some good points, but also logical flaws.  If one believes Siri was validly elected and then forced to resign (an invalid resignation), then per canon law and logic...he's still the pope.  ESPECIALLY after it happened twice, in 58 and 63.

The logical flaws are to look at the circuмstantial evidence (i.e. he said the new mass, he was a coward, he was kinda-modernist, he went along with Paul VI) to retroactively say "this proves he wasn't a true pope".

Just because Siri was validly elected doesn't mean he would've been an orthodox warrior, like St Pope Pius X.  So people look at Siri following modernism (like 80% of the cardinals in the 60s and 70s) and somehow expect him to be different.  Benedict XV, Pius XI and Pius XII were pretty lukewarm too; they weren't saints and they were certainly valid.

The expectation that a valid election of Siri would make him a Trad-supporting papal warrior is naive, illogical and wrong.  This is a big error I see many people make.  False expectations.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on June 02, 2022, 07:28:02 PM
Br Peter makes some good points, but also logical flaws.  If one believes Siri was validly elected and then forced to resign (an invalid resignation), then per canon law and logic...he's still the pope.  ESPECIALLY after it happened twice, in 58 and 63.

The logical flaws are to look at the circuмstantial evidence (i.e. he said the new mass, he was a coward, he was kinda-modernist, he went along with Paul VI) to retroactively say "this proves he wasn't a true pope".

Just because Siri was validly elected doesn't mean he would've been an orthodox warrior, like St Pope Pius X.  So people look at Siri following modernism (like 80% of the cardinals in the 60s and 70s) and somehow expect him to be different.  Benedict XV, Pius XI and Pius XII were pretty lukewarm too; they weren't saints and they were certainly valid.

The expectation that a valid election of Siri would make him a Trad-supporting papal warrior is naive, illogical and wrong.  This is a big error I see many people make.  False expectations.
If he wasn't orthodox, then he would fall from the papacy anyway, which is what Br. Peter, and myself, suggested by his adherence to Paul VI as a valid Pope and celebration of the New Mass. That does prove he was no longer a valid Pope, per the arguments proffered by sedevacantism.

Benedict XV, Pius XI, and Pius XII were many things, even weak, but they were certainly orthodox, they did not deny any dogma of the Catholic faith. The same cannot be said of anyone who openly accepts Vatican II and the "authentic magisterium" of the post-conciliar Antipopes.

False expectations are the entire problem I have here with this thesis beyond the fact that he may have been elected in 1958 and/or 1963. This divining what motivated him to stay quiet and accept the Antipopes and false teachings of the Conciliarists, when, as Br. Peter stated, Siri's "big secret" may have been as simple as him misunderstanding that he doesn't need to remain quiet about an invalid election.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Pax Vobis on June 02, 2022, 08:00:56 PM

Quote
If he wasn't orthodox, then he would fall from the papacy anyway, which is what Br. Peter, and myself, suggested by his adherence to Paul VI as a valid Pope and celebration of the New Mass. That does prove he was no longer a valid Pope, per the arguments proffered by sedevacantism.
The problem with this line of thinking is it's too simplistic.

1.  A pope's personal orthodoxy doesn't affect his office.  Siri never tried to "teach" heresy as pope, so he couldn't "fall from the papacy". 
2.  It seems that Siri never considered himself the pope, so his "adherence" (I assume you mean recognition) of Paul VI would be similar to +ABL's recognition; that is, irrelevant.
3.  Siri's celebration of the new mass has nothing to do with his papal office.  He never imposed anything on the Church at large, so, again, his personal sins don't remove him from office.

Quote
Benedict XV, Pius XI, and Pius XII were many things, even weak, but they were certainly orthodox, they did not deny any dogma of the Catholic faith. The same cannot be said of anyone who openly accepts Vatican II and the "authentic magisterium" of the post-conciliar Antipopes.
Arguably, anyone who rejects Pius XII's Holy Week changes (most sedes) are implicitly arguing that such changes are unorthodox.  Logically, if Pius XII issued unorthodox rites, then he would also be a heretic and lose office (according to sede logic).  If Siri's saying of the new mass = heresy and loss of office.  How can Pius XII keep his office after issuing the Holy Week updates?

Quote
False expectations are the entire problem I have here with this thesis beyond the fact that he may have been elected in 1958 and/or 1963. This divining what motivated him to stay quiet and accept the Antipopes and false teachings of the Conciliarists, when, as Br. Peter stated, Siri's "big secret" may have been as simple as him misunderstanding that he doesn't need to remain quiet about an invalid election.
Br Peter's analysis seems complex only because he assumes that Siri's later actions retroactively affect the 58 and 63 elections.  This is similar to protestant errors of logic where they argue that "acceptance of Christ" = salvation but...if person X doesn't live a Christian life, then that's proof that he "didn't really accept Christ".  So it's the logical error of "future proves the past".  That's not the way the Church works.


Siri gets elected, he accepts, he is threatened, he resigns (under duress, so it's an invalid resignation).  Siri continues on as a Cardinal, incorrectly assuming his resignation and silence are legal and binding.  Maybe as years go by, he realizes he's wrong and his election to the papacy was true.  Maybe he ignores his conscience and his friends, and continues on as a Cardinal (because he's scared of the threats).  In this case, he's a coward, but he's still the pope.  So God allows his sin of cowardness to = acceptance of V2 and the new mass (9+ years after his election) due to loss of grace.

You can't say that Siri's acceptance of the new mass in 1970 invalidated his elections in 58 and 63.  That's totally illogical.  The future does not prove the past.  Was he elected in 58 and 63?  Yes or no?  What happened after is a mystery of grace and salvation and sin but has no effect on the papal election.  To argue otherwise is retarded.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on June 02, 2022, 08:55:56 PM
If he wasn't orthodox, then he would fall from the papacy anyway ...

#1) you'd have to establish formal and pertinacious error, which I suspect would hardly be the case for Cardinal Siri.
#2) it's debated whether he would "fall away from the papacy" (that's St. Robert's opinion, but not that of Cajetan / John of St. Thomas)

Simply belonging to the Conciliar Church and accepting their hierarchy does not constitute formal error; it's very likely material error.

You're just completely hung up on this "he'd fall away from the papacy" stuff.  But given that the Conciliar Church claims to be the Catholic Church, it's very possible for someone to adhere to it by mistaking it to be the Church, or have an R&R type theology where it's still the hierarchy even if they're in error, or try to apply the "hermeneutic of continuity" to reconcile V2 with Tradtion.  All three of those attitudes are prima facie indicators that the person formally intends to be in submission to the Church.

You just keep saying this stuff over and over again, but have failed to cite a single piece of evidence that Siri adhered to heresy.  And, BTW, any old error doesn't suffice to exclude someone from the Church; it has to be heresy in the strict sense, and not just a run-of-the-mill error.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: DigitalLogos on June 02, 2022, 09:34:07 PM
You can't say that Siri's acceptance of the new mass in 1970 invalidated his elections in 58 and 63.  That's totally illogical.  The future does not prove the past.  Was he elected in 58 and 63?  Yes or no?  What happened after is a mystery of grace and salvation and sin but has no effect on the papal election.  To argue otherwise is retarded.
And I'm not saying that he wasn't elected.

Here's what MHFM states in the last section of their article on the Siri Thesis as linked by Lad:
Quote
Note: We believe that Cardinal Siri was elected Pope and unlawfully forced to resign - thus invalidating the “elections” of John XXIII and Paul VI.  But his failure to oppose the apostasy, stand up for his office and denounce the Antipopes in the decades following those fateful days preclude Catholics from holding that he remained Pope in the decades following the 1958 and 1963 conclaves.  Cardinal Siri may have been paralyzed by fear, uncertainty and confusion about his status and what to do about it; nevertheless one cannot recognize that he remained Pope in the years following his elections because, at least in the external forum, he did not stand up for his office or oppose the Antipopes.

Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Pax Vobis on June 02, 2022, 10:01:36 PM

Quote
nevertheless one cannot recognize that he remained Pope in the years following his elections because, at least in the external forum, he did not stand up for his office or oppose the Antipopes.
Their definition for how a papacy can be lost is the recipe for chaos.  The fact that they argue he lost his papal office based on the "external forum" is truly a stupendous insight into their lack of a factual reason.  So they resort to externalities, circuмstantial evidence and assumptions.


100 different people would define "standing up for one's office" or "opposing error" in a 100 different ways.  This is purely subjective speculation.  This is not how canon law works, nor sacramental theology nor the Church government, nor charges of heresy.  Facts matter and speculation does not make up for lack of facts.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Melanie on June 02, 2022, 10:17:26 PM
If Cardinal Siri had been elected, what impact would it have if he lost the Papacy as MHFM claim or if he kept it? If the whole point was to present an invalidly elected fake Pope to institute a new religion eclipsing the Church, that deed was done.  Cardinal Siri is dead now.  I would imagine that just as a doubtful Pope is no Pope, a Pope keeping secret that he’s Pope is no Pope.  But again he is no longer living so what impact does it have now?
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on June 03, 2022, 09:37:41 AM
If Cardinal Siri had been elected, what impact would it have if he lost the Papacy as MHFM claim or if he kept it?

Depending on when he actually lost it and what one believes about whether the Cardinals appointed by the Conciliar Anti-popes, and whether you're a sedeprivationist, etc., it would impact which subsequent pontificates his holding of office would have impeded.

Conclaves were held, while +Siri was still alive, in 1958 (Roncalli), 1963 (Montini), 1978 (Luciani and Wojtyla).

Presumably the "fell from office" crowd could point to the date that +Siri fell from office, since they're so determined that he did and have all kinds of evidence to back it up, right?

I would think it would have been after 1963.  So the implication is that Luciani & Wojtyla MAY have been legitimately elected (if you're a privationist).

I don't really believe in this "fell from office" stuff.  I hold with St. Robert et al. that a once-legitimate Catholic pope will be prevented by God from falling from office due to heresy.  Later, some SVs (like Father Cekada) started to agree and said it's a sign that these men where never popes in the first place.  But what about +Siri then?  He was clearly not any kind of "manifest heretic" yet by 1958 or 1963.

All this talk about manifest heresy deposing from office is entirely moot if the Siri theory proves to be true ... as I'm convinced that it will.

We need to take the Dimonds with a huge grain of salt.  If a Bishop Williamson were elected to the papacy, the Dimonds would continue to hold that the See remained vacant because Bishop Williamson, according to them, is a manifest heretic.

This nonsense comes from the fact that the Dimonds don't understand formal/pertinacious heresy vs. material error ... which I should think they would given how much time they spend on the EENS issue (and it's all related).
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Melanie on June 03, 2022, 10:09:22 AM
Depending on when he actually lost it and what one believes about whether the Cardinals appointed by the Conciliar Anti-popes, and whether you're a sedeprivationist, etc., it would impact which subsequent pontificates his holding of office would have impeded.

Conclaves were held, while +Siri was still alive, in 1958 (Roncalli), 1963 (Montini), 1978 (Luciani and Wojtyla).

Presumably the "fell from office" crowd could point to the date that +Siri fell from office, since they're so determined that he did and have all kinds of evidence to back it up, right?

I would think it would have been after 1963.  So the implication is that Luciani & Wojtyla MAY have been legitimately elected (if you're a privationist).

I don't really believe in this "fell from office" stuff.  I hold with St. Robert et al. that a once-legitimate Catholic pope will be prevented by God from falling from office due to heresy.  Later, some SVs (like Father Cekada) started to agree and said it's a sign that these men where never popes in the first place.  But what about +Siri then?  He was clearly not any kind of "manifest heretic" yet by 1958 or 1963.

All this talk about manifest heresy deposing from office is entirely moot if the Siri theory proves to be true ... as I'm convinced that it will.

We need to take the Dimonds with a huge grain of salt.  If a Bishop Williamson were elected to the papacy, the Dimonds would continue to hold that the See remained vacant because Bishop Williamson, according to them, is a manifest heretic.

This nonsense comes from the fact that the Dimonds don't understand formal/pertinacious heresy vs. material error ... which I should think they would given how much time they spend on the EENS issue (and it's all related).
I just don’t see how the Siri theory can be proven or to who exactly it will be proven.  Look at Dr. Chojnowski.  He looked at the post 1958 Sister Lucy and saw what many people saw and thought well it’s the 2020’s we can prove with modern technology that this is a different person and he did that.  And I just don’t see much of an impact. For the last 60 years anyone only need read the docuмents of Vatican II council and compare them to the docuмents from any prior council to see this docuмent opposes the teaching of the Church.  The New Order wasn’t spread secretly it’s blasphemously in the open for all to see, read, hear.  Can you refer me to any past hoax that has been subsequently exposed in the mainstream?  I just feel like we need to move on from it.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Pax Vobis on June 03, 2022, 01:23:25 PM

Quote
I just feel like we need to move on from it.
No one is stopping you.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Incredulous on June 03, 2022, 03:27:31 PM

There’s one papal precedent that put’s the Siri coup d’etat into perspective, for the sake of Church history.

In 1130, Pope Innocent II’s papacy was hijacked by anti-Pope Anacletus, a jew who bought his conclave votes.  

He lasted 8 years and was finally ousted with the help of St. Bernard of Clairvaux.  The Saint had rallied the Church in several nations to reject Anacletus’s schism.

Likewise, the modern church is a hijacked schism.  

Cardinal Siri’s role as Pope Gregory XVII, as tragic as it was, gives us a demarcation point for the Church’s “eclipse” (Our Lady of LaSalette).

Although, 99% of the Catholic world was unaware of what had happened, we realize now, the suffering pope, was hiding in the Holy See, for 31 years.

Considering the Church’s incremental destruction since the day John XXIII appeared St. Peter’s Central balcony, it is a consolation to understand how the Church’s enemies pulled it off, IMHO.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Melanie on June 03, 2022, 04:13:00 PM
There’s one papal precedent that put’s the Siri coup d’etat into perspective, for the sake of Church history.

In 1130, Pope Innocent II’s papacy was hijacked by anti-Pope Anacletus, a Jєω who bought his conclave votes. 

He lasted 8 years and was finally ousted with the help of St. Bernard of Clairvaux.  The Saint had rallied the Church in several nations to reject Anacletus’s schism.

Likewise, the modern church is a hijacked schism. 

Cardinal Siri’s role as Pope Gregory XVII, as tragic as it was, gives us a demarcation point for the Church’s “eclipse” (Our Lady of LaSalette).

Although, 99% of the Catholic world was unaware of what had happened, we realize now, the suffering pope, was hiding in the Holy See, for 31 years.

Considering the Church’s incremental destruction since the day John XXIII appeared St. Peter’s Central balcony, it is a consolation to understand how the Church’s enemies pulled it off, IMHO.
I read about this anti-Pope Anacletus in The Plot Against the Church and I agree that it is a precedent for the current crisis and the writers must have recognized this as well.  We need a St. Bernard of Clairvaux to rally someone, I don’t know about nations.  Rallying our remaining Bishops probably would be good.  If they have issues with each other’s consecrations, I don’t care if they all conditionally consecrate each other, consecrate Vigano, whoever but get us a Pope.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on June 03, 2022, 04:38:47 PM
Considering the Church’s incremental destruction since the day John XXIII appeared St. Peter’s Central balcony, it is a consolation to understand how the Church’s enemies pulled it off, IMHO.

THIS^^^.  There's no need to malign the Church, her indefectibility, and the protection of the Holy Spirit over the true Catholic Church.  It really is this simple.  We have a bunch of Catholics here who think it's OK to say that the Catholic Church became a whore ... rather than identify the real culprits, illegitimate enemy infiltrators.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on June 03, 2022, 04:42:14 PM
I just don’t see how the Siri theory can be proven or to who exactly it will be proven.  ... And I just don’t see much of an impact. For the last 60 years anyone only need read the docuмents of Vatican II council and compare them to the docuмents from any prior council to see this docuмent opposes the teaching of the Church.  The New Order wasn’t spread secretly it’s blasphemously in the open for all to see, read, hear.  Can you refer me to any past hoax that has been subsequently exposed in the mainstream?  I just feel like we need to move on from it.

This is precisely the impact.  When you have a legitimate Magisterium, it is not permissible for Catholic to simply "compare [it] to the docuмents of any prior council to see [it] opposes the teaching of the Church."  Magisterium IS the teaching of the Church, and it's guardian and interpreter.  We can't move on until all that R&R garbage is laid to rest and the honor of the Church is restored ... which it will be when it does come out that Siri had been the pope the entire time.  Otherwise, we're no different than the Prots, who said exactly the same thing, that the Catholic Church in their day had gone corrupt and had departed from the teaching of the early Church.

There is no moving on from this.  It must be definitely resolved in favor of the indefectibility of the Catholic Church and the authority of the Catholic Magisterium, which is being destroyed.  Your assertion that Catholic eccleisology is of no practical consequence couldn't be farther from the truth.  We have even Trad Catholics losing faith in the Catholic Church.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Melanie on June 03, 2022, 04:58:01 PM
This is precisely the impact.  When you have a legitimate Magisterium, it is not permissible for Catholic to simply "compare [it] to the docuмents of any prior council to see [it] opposes the teaching of the Church."  Magisterium IS the teaching of the Church, and it's guardian and interpreter.  We can't move on until all that R&R garbage is laid to rest and the honor of the Church is restored ... which it will be when it does come out that Siri had been the pope the entire time.  Otherwise, we're no different than the Prots, who said exactly the same thing, that the Catholic Church in their day had gone corrupt and had departed from the teaching of the early Church.

There is no moving on from this.  It must be definitely resolved in favor of the indefectibility of the Catholic Church and the authority of the Catholic Magisterium, which is being destroyed.  Your assertion that Catholic eccleisology is of no practical consequence couldn't be farther from the truth.  We have even Trad Catholics losing faith in the Catholic Church.
To whom do we present proof of Cardinal Siri’s election?
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Ladislaus on June 03, 2022, 05:00:55 PM
To whom do we present proof of Cardinal Siri’s election?

We don't need to present any proof, certainly not to the officials of the Conciliar Church.  It'll come out in the wash when the time comes.  But it's important to know what happened in order to prevent the erosion of faith in the Holy Catholic Church and to uphold her reputation.  That is more important right now than the practical resolution of the crisis, which God will take care of in His own time.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: EWPJ on June 04, 2022, 12:44:48 AM
Depending on when he actually lost it and what one believes about whether the Cardinals appointed by the Conciliar Anti-popes, and whether you're a sedeprivationist, etc., it would impact which subsequent pontificates his holding of office would have impeded.

Conclaves were held, while +Siri was still alive, in 1958 (Roncalli), 1963 (Montini), 1978 (Luciani and Wojtyla).

Presumably the "fell from office" crowd could point to the date that +Siri fell from office, since they're so determined that he did and have all kinds of evidence to back it up, right?

I would think it would have been after 1963.  So the implication is that Luciani & Wojtyla MAY have been legitimately elected (if you're a privationist).

I don't really believe in this "fell from office" stuff.  I hold with St. Robert et al. that a once-legitimate Catholic pope will be prevented by God from falling from office due to heresy.  Later, some SVs (like Father Cekada) started to agree and said it's a sign that these men where never popes in the first place.  But what about +Siri then?  He was clearly not any kind of "manifest heretic" yet by 1958 or 1963.

All this talk about manifest heresy deposing from office is entirely moot if the Siri theory proves to be true ... as I'm convinced that it will.

We need to take the Dimonds with a huge grain of salt.  If a Bishop Williamson were elected to the papacy, the Dimonds would continue to hold that the See remained vacant because Bishop Williamson, according to them, is a manifest heretic.

This nonsense comes from the fact that the Dimonds don't understand formal/pertinacious heresy vs. material error ... which I should think they would given how much time they spend on the EENS issue (and it's all related).

I'm not a Dimondite but their reasoning behind it is simple enough.  There is no one on Earth higher than a Valid Pope.  This Pope should be THE go to for things partaining to The Faith (and Morals)...that just makes sense.  He is required to know The Faith and should have all the answers on Faith and Morals.  If he doesn't get something right that a simple layman can then it's an imposter in The Chair. 

This answers a lot of the objections people make about ths and similar topics.

https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/21_Objections.pdf

As far Siri goes.  I suspend judgment on the issue for the time being.  I do think it's possible there is a hidden Pope somewhere that might have been in the Siri/Gregory XVII line.  There's also the conspiracy about 2 different Paul VI's with one being an actor and imposter and the other being the real one that was jailed underground and tortured.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Simeon on June 04, 2022, 10:46:35 AM
The Church is a perfect society and hence perfectly capable of acting.
What I mean by "undone and incapable of acting," is that Catholic prelates would be replaced with freemasons, crypto jews, and other varieties of apostates and infidels. In which case it would not be the Church acting (or omitting to act) through these men, but rather imposters.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Simeon on June 04, 2022, 11:16:51 AM
Probably because they've come to a point where they can't proceed because they're not meant to be solved by laymen. There's only so many times you can explain how the problem with the Pope question is not about recognizing and deposing a heretical Pope but the indefectibility of the Church before it becomes stale.
Absolutely. This problem is beyond "reason enlightened by faith." It is going to take legitimate authority to solve. 

But there is a collateral problem that makes things exponentially worse; and it is that men in valid orders, yet without a shred of legitimate authority, are coming up, left and right, with their own "doctrines" that they shove down the throats of traditional seminarians and faithful, complete with sacramental blackmail, most especially, the withholding of priestly ordination. Withholding Holy Communion, a crime endemic among such persons, is reprehensible enough; but withholding priestly ordination perpetuates the suppurating sickness, and embeds it in the mentality of the entire paste.  

I don't think it is beyond conception that these parasites are worse, in the mind of God, than the original enemies who captured the Church's Offices.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Simeon on June 04, 2022, 11:21:52 AM
I'm on the complete opposite spectrum.  I'm increasingly disturbed by most Trads I know who *still* reject most cօռspιʀαcιҽs.  They won't even entertain the idea they are possible.  This is complete brainwashing. 


We just lived through 1.5 years of the Covid hoax, one of the most pre-planned, globally organized, and internationally funded hoaxes in human history, where 70% of population was lied to, coerced, forced and manipulated to take an experimental jab.  Every level of society was involved to perpetrate this mass psychotic brainwashing -

1.  govts at all levels (global, national, state, city....executive, legislative, judicial branches),
2.  media at all levels,
3.  major corporations at all levels (Food, manufacturing, insurance, financial, etc etc,
4.  non-profit orgs at all levels,
5.  Healthcare businesses at all levels,
6.  Every major "church" organization (catholic, protestant, Jєωιѕн, etc)
7.  Every major sport organization in the world

To put it another way, looking at the above list...Is there ANY area of society that isn't controlled by satan and his freemasonic minions?  Covid pulled the curtain back and let us look our enemies right in the eye (at least for those who WANT to see reality).  If they could pull off Covid...what is their limit?  How could any conspiracy be off the table, at least as a possibility?

We shouldn't accept any story at face value; we should research all things, especially cօռspιʀαcιҽs.  But at this point in history, facing the organized and globally-controlling enemy of our day, NO conspiracy can be brushed aside without research.  How can anyone who is honest put limits on what these evil men are capable of?  If God was not in charge, and if He was not putting limits on the extent to which satan could control/tempt us to despair, we can say, as did King David:

2 Have mercy on me, O God, for man hath trodden me under foot; all the day long he hath afflicted me fighting against me.
3 My enemies have trodden on me all the day long; for they are many that make war against me.
4 From the height of the day I shall fear: but I will trust in thee.
5 In God I will praise my words, in God I have put my trust: I will not fear what flesh can do against me.  (Ps 55)
Good points. 

Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Simeon on June 04, 2022, 11:27:11 AM
There are cօռspιʀαcιҽs, there always have been, even at the time of Our Lord. But having this fixation on them, as I have realized, is not overall beneficial to our spiritual well-being.
I find the overarching knowledge of the cօռspιʀαcιҽs, and their descriptions given by Fathers, Doctors, Saints, and Catholic Bishops and Priests, to be very helpful in my spiritual life. 

What I think is pure poison, and spiritually harmful, is the alt media propaganda, sensationalism, and "analysis." That's where you are going to get the pure gnosticism you alluded to earlier. The alt media is far worse than CNN, because it has great power to deceive even the elect.









Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Cera on June 04, 2022, 11:41:48 AM
I find the overarching knowledge of the cօռspιʀαcιҽs, and their descriptions given by Fathers, Doctors, Saints, and Catholic Bishops and Priests, to be very helpful in my spiritual life.

What I think is pure poison, and spiritually harmful, is the alt media propaganda, sensationalism, and "analysis." That's where you are going to get the pure gnosticism you alluded to earlier. The alt media is far worse than CNN, because it has great power to deceive even the elect.
Good point Simeon. We who love the Truth also love the truth.

God's Word speaks of the "mystery of iniquity" and warns us of the "synagog of satan" and "those who say they are Jews and are not" (because they actually worhip satan). The days of easily doing research on the net are gone, but those of us who know who the evil-doers are and what motivates them are duty-bound to make the truth known to others, in the time we have remaining to us.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Yeti on June 04, 2022, 01:06:16 PM
THIS^^^.  There's no need to malign the Church, her indefectibility, and the protection of the Holy Spirit over the true Catholic Church.  It really is this simple.  We have a bunch of Catholics here who think it's OK to say that the Catholic Church became a whore ... rather than identify the real culprits, illegitimate enemy infiltrators.
.

Yeah, I see your point of view, Ladislaus, on the Siri thesis in general, in how it could provide an explanation for the crisis. If it's true, it could, but something like that should not be accepted without proof, which we don't seem to have.

I have a major problem, though, with the idea that Cardinal Siri continued to be pope until his death. (This is leaving aside any question of his orthodoxy or acceptance of Vatican 2; let's assume for the sake of argument that he remained orthodox). Let's suppose by your theory that he may have mistakenly thought he had resigned, when his resignation had actually been invalid because of duress. He would still have relinquished the papacy, if he had it to begin with, by going back to Genoa and continuing to serve as a cardinal and recognizing someone else as pope and never claiming to be pope. All of those things constitute an implicit resignation, since he made it clear by his actions that he didn't intend to function as pope.

This should be common sense, but if you're not convinced, it's basically laid out in canon law. In the 1917 code, the famous canon 188 says that


Quote
Any office becomes vacant upon the fact and without any declaration by tacit resignation recognized by the law itself if a cleric:




This is familiar to most of us because of number 4, which is if he "publicly defects from the Catholic faith", but there are two other sections in that code that would preclude your theory on the declining years of Cardinal Siri. First there's


Quote
Within the useful time established by law or, legal provision lacking, as determined by the Ordinary, fails to take possession of the office;


So, if someone doesn't take possession of an office within the time established by law, that's considered a tacit resignation. Again, this is just common sense, that an office must be exercised, and if someone is appointed to an office and never claims possession of it, then he is considered to be resigning that office. Now, what constitutes taking possession of the papacy could be debatable, but it should be obviously that going back to Genoa and wearing red and telling people to call you "Cardinal So-and-So" and recognizing someone else as pope for the rest of your life cannot be considered taking possession of the office of the papacy.

The other section that is relevant here is:


Quote
Accepts another ecclesiastical office incompatible with the prior, and has obtained peaceful possession of [the other office]



This is another common-sense regulation. Obviously being cardinal of Genoa is incompatible with being pope, so if someone chooses to be cardinal of Genoa instead of being pope, regardless of whether he understood that he was or wasn't pope, or understood that this would be a resignation of the papacy, or whatever else, this is an automatic resignation of the papacy.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Simeon on June 04, 2022, 07:03:22 PM
Good point Simeon. We who love the Truth also love the truth.

God's Word speaks of the "mystery of iniquity" and warns us of the "synagog of satan" and "those who say they are Jєωs and are not" (because they actually worhip satan). The days of easily doing research on the net are gone, but those of us who know who the evil-doers are and what motivates them are duty-bound to make the truth known to others, in the time we have remaining to us.
"In the time we have remaining to us......"

Do you share my sense of impending doom, Cera? It's a nameless thing, but a dark and oppressive, perpetually present shadow nevertheless. Nameless because not quite in focus, but the imagination need only pull from history (past and present) to glean manifold reasons for dread. 

I am finding myself more and more wearied by the insane degree of malevolence in the world, and the utter lack of any human hope whatsoever. As Gandalf remarked to Thorin, who proposed doing something magnificent, "that would be no good, not without a mighty Warrior, even a Hero. I tried to find one; but warriors are busy fighting one another in distant lands, and in this neighbourhood heroes are scarce, or simply not to be found."
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Incredulous on June 05, 2022, 02:18:13 PM


Putting the invalidated 1958 Conclave into context, here's a photo of Pope Gregory XVII's usurper, Roncalli, receiving his Cardinal's hat from an atheist.


(https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/JXXIII/johnrece.jpg)

1953: John XXIII, as a cardinal, choosing to receive his cardinal's hat from notorious Anti-Catholic Vincent Auriol

Roncalli knelt before Auriol, and Auriol placed the cardinal’s biretta on Roncalli’s head.  Auriol then hung a “broad red ribbon around the cardinal’s neck embracing him on each cheek with a little bear-hug that imparted personal warmth to formal protocol.”[16] (https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/anti-pope-john-xxiii/#_edn16)  Auriol had to wipe away his tears with a handkerchief when Roncalli left to assume his new dignity as “cardinal.”[17] (https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/anti-pope-john-xxiii/#_edn17)

Sources:

[16] (https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/anti-pope-john-xxiii/#_ednref16) Alden Hatch, A Man Named John, p. 123.

[17] (https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/anti-pope-john-xxiii/#_ednref17) Kurt Klinger, A Pope Laughs, p. 99.



Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Cera on June 05, 2022, 03:05:55 PM
"In the time we have remaining to us......"

Do you share my sense of impending doom, Cera?
It's not a feeling, it's the facts that the puppetmasters over Biden are:
1. trying to foment WW3
2. used the Afghanistan withdrawal to bring terrorists into the US, and to signal US weakness to our enemies
3.. are using the open border to bring in more terrorists, drugs and sex-trafficking.
4. are using Soros-funded D.A.s to release, or never charge, violent criminals
5. have made us dependent on the CCP for medicines
6. have destroyed the energy independance we had under Trump
7. are killing people with an gene "therapy" experiment
8. are using their control of the media so most people beleive the lies and deny the truth
9. are using their control of search engines to keep people believing their lies
10. Russia realizes the US is the head of the evil globalist cabal and numerous generals and others in the Kremlin have made threats to destroy both coasts of the US (which are backed up by weapons against which we have no defense).
11. Are collapsing the economy.
12. Are signaling that they plan to release another gain-of-function bio-warfare weapon agains the population.
13. Are criminalizing -- as a terrorist threat -- any criticism of CRT, LGBTQ, the 2020 election, the sɛҳuąƖization of young children in public school.

and much more.

All of this, I pray, will make us stronger Catholics.

Sorry for the spelling but I have severe back pain and am waiting for an MRI (for which there is no contrast to make the image clearer, because China.)













Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Simeon on June 07, 2022, 10:03:49 AM
It's not a feeling, it's the facts that the puppetmasters over Biden are:
1. trying to foment WW3
2. used the Afghanistan withdrawal to bring terrorists into the US, and to signal US weakness to our enemies
3.. are using the open border to bring in more terrorists, drugs and sex-trafficking.
4. are using Soros-funded D.A.s to release, or never charge, violent criminals
5. have made us dependent on the CCP for medicines
6. have destroyed the energy independance we had under Trump
7. are killing people with an gene "therapy" experiment
8. are using their control of the media so most people beleive the lies and deny the truth
9. are using their control of search engines to keep people believing their lies
10. Russia realizes the US is the head of the evil globalist cabal and numerous generals and others in the Kremlin have made threats to destroy both coasts of the US (which are backed up by weapons against which we have no defense).
11. Are collapsing the economy.
12. Are signaling that they plan to release another gain-of-function bio-warfare weapon agains the population.
13. Are criminalizing -- as a terrorist threat -- any criticism of CRT, LGBTQ, the 2020 election, the sɛҳuąƖization of young children in public school.

and much more.

All of this, I pray, will make us stronger Catholics.

Sorry for the spelling but I have severe back pain and am waiting for an MRI (for which there is no contrast to make the image clearer, because China.)
So very sorry to hear about your back pain. May God relieve you very soon!

Your list makes me want to grab the Brioschi bottle! I think it might be succinctly reformatted to consist of one, and one bullet point alone: Vatican II.

Doesn't that encompass it all?

Lord Jesus, save us! We perish!!
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Cera on June 07, 2022, 05:11:07 PM
So very sorry to hear about your back pain. May God relieve you very soon!

Your list makes me want to grab the Brioschi bottle! I think it might be succinctly reformatted to consist of one, and one bullet point alone: Vatican II.

Doesn't that encompass it all?

Lord Jesus, save us! We perish!!
Yes Simeon, you nailed it. The True Church was the moral compass of the world and now the post V2 church has destroyed it.
Title: Re: White Doves - Popes Gregory VII and Gregory XVII
Post by: Simeon on June 08, 2022, 06:23:57 AM
Yes Simeon, you nailed it. The True Church was the moral compass of the world and now the post V2 church has destroyed it.

Oh my dear Cera! I read your prayer request. How I wish I had some good advice for you! I think many others have given wonderful suggestions. I don't know if anyone mentioned Vitamins C and D. I don't think that would hurt. Also the B vitamins, especially thiamine. Count on my prayers, and please keep us informed! :pray: