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Author Topic: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?  (Read 1739 times)

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Offline Christo Rege

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Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
« on: March 24, 2024, 04:29:03 PM »
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  • Was a bit unsure on which category to place this topic. 

    Recently, I have been reading up on different cultures/countries. Would anyone be able to provide authentic sources on what the Catholic Church says about the Russian Orthodox church? Are their baptisms/marriages valid, but are not necessarily “sacramental”?  

    I personally know of someone who was born and raised in Russia and practices this faith. Any discussions with someone who is familiar with this would be so helpful!
    “The good God does not need years to accomplish His work of Love in a soul; one ray from His Heart can, in an instant, make His flower bloom for eternity.” 
    ~ St. Therese of Lisieux


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #1 on: March 24, 2024, 04:42:23 PM »
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  • Was a bit unsure on which category to place this topic.

    Recently, I have been reading up on different cultures/countries. Would anyone be able to provide authentic sources on what the Catholic Church says about the Russian Orthodox church? Are their baptisms/marriages valid, but are not necessarily “sacramental”? 

    I personally know of someone who was born and raised in Russia and practices this faith. Any discussions with someone who is familiar with this would be so helpful!

    Pretty sure any Orthodox baptism would have been considered valid even by the pre-Vatican II Church.

    This is really a stretch, but you could make the case that they don't understand the Trinity correctly (filioque).  That would, however, hang by the most slender of threads, as filioque was not embraced by the Church for hundreds of years after the apostolic age, and surely baptisms all those years weren't invalid.

    An example of a sect that uses the right words, but has a radically different concept of "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost", is the Mormons (which they do not like to be called anymore).  Their "baptisms" are certainly invalid, again, even though they use the very same words Catholics do.


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #2 on: March 24, 2024, 07:51:26 PM »
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  • ALL so-called Orthodox are in schism AND heresy at this stage.  Their sacraments are valid, but that does not mean the recipients of said sacraments receive the grace thereof.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline moneil

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    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #3 on: March 24, 2024, 09:31:41 PM »
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  • Pope Pius XI issued the Encyclical Rerum Orientalium, On The Promotion of Oriental Studies, on September 8, 1928, nearly 96 years ago, https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius11/p11reror.htm
     
    This how He characterized Rome's view of the Orthodox:
     
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    18. Who then, considering the great extent of these labors, undertaken chiefly for the benefit of Orientals, does not trust Jesus Christ the most merciful Redeemer of men, taking pity upon the sad fate of so many, long astray from the right road, will complete what We have begun, and guide His flock into the One Fold, ruled over by the One Shepherd? A special reason for this hope is that among those nations a very great part of Revelation has been religiously preserved, sincere service is rendered to Christ Our Lord, great piety and love are shown towards His sinless Mother, and devout use made of the Sacraments. Therefore, since God in His mercy has willed that men, and especially priests, should as His instruments co-operate in the work of Redemption, what is there left to Us, Venerable Brethren, but once more to supplicate, yea to compel you not only to agree in mind and in heart with Our designs, but also to labor that the longed-for day may soon dawn, when We shall all welcome back, not only a few, but the vast majority of the Greeks, of the Slavs, of the Roumanians, and of the Eastern nations, hitherto separated, to their former communion with the Roman Church. And as we meditate upon what We have already begun to do, and what We hope to bring to perfection, so as to hasten this joyful day, it seems to Us that We may compare Ourselves to the Father of the family whom Christ Our Lord describes as calling the guests invited to His supper “that they should come, for now all things are ready” (Luke xiv, 17). Applying these words to Our own case, We earnestly entreat you, Venerable Brethren, that you add your efforts to ours, for this most important end of promoting Oriental studies. So that, after the removal of all obstacles, under the auspices of the Immaculate Virgin Mother of God, and of the Holy Fathers and Doctors of East and West, We may receive into the House of the Father those brethren and sons of Ours, so long separated from Us, but once more united in bonds of a charity based upon the solid foundation of truth and the full profession of the Christian religion.

     
    They are referred to as “His (i.e. God’s) flock”, as churches which have “preserved a great part of Revelation”, which “render sincere service to Christ, who “show love toward His sinless Mother”, and “make devout us of the Sacraments”.  The Holy Father expresses His desire that the Church may receive “those brethren and sons of Ours …”



    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #4 on: March 25, 2024, 06:50:04 AM »
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  • Not only are the eparchies (dioceses) of the Orthodox schismatics true particular churches (not meant here in sense of the True Church) with valid sacraments, Catholics may avail themselves to certain Orthodox sacraments (Eucharist, Unction, Penance) in an emergency.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #5 on: March 25, 2024, 12:04:29 PM »
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  • Not only are the eparchies (dioceses) of the Orthodox schismatics true particular churches (not meant here in sense of the True Church) with valid sacraments, Catholics may avail themselves to certain Orthodox sacraments (Eucharist, Unction, Penance) in an emergency.

    Indeed.  The Orthodox, while schismatics, do trace their lineage back to the very beginning.  If I'm understanding correctly, they do not so much deny purgatory, in that they understand it differently --- some Orthodox adhere to the concept of "celestial toll houses", in which the reposed soul is accused by demons of various sins, and the angels and even the suffrages of the faithful plead their case in the affirmative.  (Or something like that.)  They do lapse into outright error, in tolerating successive marriages after divorce, and some Orthodox bishops allow contraception as a kind of "last resort" when NFP fails.  The Orthodox rely on "economy" (ekonomia) in resolving difficult situations, and do not draw the thick black line between canonical disciplines (which can be dispensed from for a grave reason) and unchangeable moral absolutes that the Catholic Church does.  Not saying they are right, just describing what they do.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #6 on: March 25, 2024, 05:13:08 PM »
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  • Indeed.  The Orthodox, while schismatics, do trace their lineage back to the very beginning.  If I'm understanding correctly, they do not so much deny purgatory, in that they understand it differently --- some Orthodox adhere to the concept of "celestial toll houses", in which the reposed soul is accused by demons of various sins, and the angels and even the suffrages of the faithful plead their case in the affirmative.  (Or something like that.)  They do lapse into outright error, in tolerating successive marriages after divorce, and some Orthodox bishops allow contraception as a kind of "last resort" when NFP fails.  The Orthodox rely on "economy" (ekonomia) in resolving difficult situations, and do not draw the thick black line between canonical disciplines (which can be dispensed from for a grave reason) and unchangeable moral absolutes that the Catholic Church does.  Not saying they are right, just describing what they do.
    I think 2 problems they have are. Intention, we don't know if their orders have the correct intention due to communism, and the real distinction between essence and energies which is polytheism.

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #7 on: March 25, 2024, 05:19:31 PM »
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  • we don't know if their orders have the correct intention due to communism
    Completely false.  So long as proper form is used (and it was by the Moscow patriarchal church throughout the hrars of communism), the Church always presumes validity of a sacrament. One would have to prove invalidity which is very hard to do since invalidating a sacrament is very difficult without altering form, matter, or minister.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila


    Offline Emilio

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    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #8 on: March 25, 2024, 05:40:06 PM »
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  • I've heard some people say that the validity of priest from the soviet block is not absolutely certain since, they say, KGB agents (who wore fake beards for a time :laugh1:) replaced some priests at some point.
    But invalidity because of communism? It's the first time I hear that.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #9 on: March 25, 2024, 05:41:01 PM »
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  • Completely false.  So long as proper form is used (and it was by the Moscow patriarchal church throughout the hrars of communism), the Church always presumes validity of a sacrament. One would have to prove invalidity which is very hard to do since invalidating a sacrament is very difficult without altering form, matter, or minister.
    I've heard some people say that the validity of priest from the soviet block is not absolutely certain since, they say, KGB agents (who wore fake beards for a time :laugh1:) replaced some priests at some point.
    But invalidity because of communism? It's the first time I hear that.
    Thank you for the correction.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #10 on: March 25, 2024, 07:56:23 PM »
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  • I think 2 problems they have are. Intention, we don't know if their orders have the correct intention due to communism, and the real distinction between essence and energies which is polytheism.

    All of that "essence and energies" stuff they go on with, concerning the Holy Trinity, makes my brain hurt.  IMO they're overthinking the matter entirely too much.

    And they accuse us of trying to analyze everything, and not being content just to "behold the mystery". 

    Pots and kettles.


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #11 on: March 25, 2024, 08:42:55 PM »
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  • Completely false.  So long as proper form is used (and it was by the Moscow patriarchal church throughout the hrars of communism), the Church always presumes validity of a sacrament. One would have to prove invalidity which is very hard to do since invalidating a sacrament is very difficult without altering form, matter, or minister.
    I defer to those with genuine theological training, but I have been taught that…

    Proper intention (and matter, minister, and form!) is always required to confect a sacrament. The minimal proper intent is "to do as the Church intends."

    It seems reasonable to ascribe/assume proper intent to ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia) lineage, but a stretch to assume proper intention for the Commie KGB "Orthodox" lineage.

    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #12 on: March 26, 2024, 08:32:19 AM »
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  • And what of the primacy oath to the Communist state each priest/prelate had to take or face a long train ride to Siberia?

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #13 on: March 26, 2024, 10:20:20 AM »
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  • And what of the primacy oath to the Communist state each priest/prelate had to take or face a long train ride to Siberia?
    This would not affect validity of sacraments or the fact that the Russian eparchies are true partcular churches. The sin would be on the clergy for swearing such an oath. But I would want to see the words of the oath -- words have meaning. Was this an oath to the nation? To the state? To the party and ideology? Each is different.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline trento

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    Re: Validity of the Russian Orthodox church?
    « Reply #14 on: March 27, 2024, 07:34:45 AM »
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  • Interesting position of +Sanborn's RCI:

    30. Baptisms conferred by Eastern schismatics are considered valid, unless they have been conferred by clergy who are not subject to the schismatic hierarchy, or have been conferred by those subject to the Russian patriarchate, in which cases positive eyewitness proof of validity must be provided.