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Author Topic: Some Pre-Vatican II Art Scandalous/Subversive?  (Read 1008 times)

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Offline WhiteWorkinClassScapegoat

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Some Pre-Vatican II Art Scandalous/Subversive?
« on: May 10, 2024, 08:28:31 PM »
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  • Is it possible that the Church, even long before Vatican II, had scoundrel artists who created things that were scandalous and subversive hiding in plain sight?

    Just one example (among numerous) I've seen is Madonna with Child Enthroned between Saints John the Baptist and Sebastian painted in 1493 by Pietro Perugino. The image of Saint Sebastian is almost completely naked while the image of Our Lady is looking right at him. Objectively, the image of Sebastian is no less nude that what would qualify as pornographic until recent times. What's the point of having him appear that way? The very little covering that he's wearing is far below his hips. Having his pelvis area covered up to his hips can still make the point of his suffering by being shot by arrows, even if he was stripped naked in real life.

    I've seen other pre-Vatican II art that is questionable in decency, too.
    Dan shall be a serpent in the way, a viper by the path, that bites the horse's heels so his rider falls backward. ~ Genesis 49:17

    My avatar is a painting titled Mother Mary with the Holy Child Jesus Christ (1913) by Adolf Hitler


    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Some Pre-Vatican II Art Scandalous/Subversive?
    « Reply #1 on: May 10, 2024, 11:25:39 PM »
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  • I believe that this issue started with the Reinaissance.

    We are oversɛҳuąƖized these days, but I have read about how some Popes, even back in the day, were bothered with the Sistine Chapel ceiling paintings.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Some Pre-Vatican II Art Scandalous/Subversive?
    « Reply #2 on: May 11, 2024, 10:08:48 AM »
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  • Agreed.  Sodomites like Michaelangelo spewed their filth everywhere, and we had a series of worldly (and even perverted) popes that encouraged this stuff.  Some Popes tried to do something about it, such as the so-called "Fig Leaf" campaign that came out of Trent.  Of course Wojtyla had the fig leaves removed and the genitalia restored to their full glory.  If I were Pope, very early on I'd order the Sistine chapel sandblasted, and the statues of the various pagan gods in the Vatican museum pulverized.  I would never offer Mass there at the Sistine.  You elevate the Sacred Host during Mass to, what?, see genitals hanging down over Our Lord or naked butts?  Ridiculous.  None of that had any business ever being in a House of God.

    It just so happens that many most of the men who have great artistic talent are sodomites, along the lines of the "Queer Eye" syndrome.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Some Pre-Vatican II Art Scandalous/Subversive?
    « Reply #3 on: May 12, 2024, 04:40:44 PM »
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  • From what I understand, Saint Pius V was considering painting over the Sistine Chapel, but didn’t. While I’m certainly not a fan of those particular paintings, I defer my opinion to the much more competent authority and judgment of the great Saint and Pope and to all of his divinely appointed and guided successors.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Some Pre-Vatican II Art Scandalous/Subversive?
    « Reply #4 on: May 13, 2024, 06:06:47 AM »
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  • From what I understand, Saint Pius V was considering painting over the Sistine Chapel, but didn’t. While I’m certainly not a fan of those particular paintings, I defer my opinion to the much more competent authority and judgment of the great Saint and Pope and to all of his divinely appointed and guided successors.

    This attitude exemplifies a bit the extremes to which some SVs have taken it in over-reaction to the R&R, to the papalotry of which many SVs have been accused by R&R, with some justification here ... as if there's any protection by the Holy Spirit whatsoever over minor prudential judgments down to how the Popes have decided to decorate the Vatican.  Be careful that such exaggerations don't actually undermine and delegitimize the other (legitimate) claims made by SVs.  We've had many delinquent, worldly, and even perverted popes in the history of the Church.  And if some Popes haven't corrected these things, for the good/holy ones, it's probably because they had many higher priorities (bigger fish to fry) just battling against the Church's enemies and dealing with issues in the Church, whereas the less good/holy ones simply didn't care.  God's protection over their dogma and doctrine is made even more manifest against the backdrop of these popes, since even despite all these types, the Holy Ghost prevented them from corrupting dogma, doctrine, and moral teaching.  There's also a bit of a 1950s-ist mentality among some SVs, where everything was great in the Church, close to the ideal, until some magical moment in, perhaps 1962.  Before that magical moment, all approved theology manuals were 100% orthodox and after that they all became worthless, even though it was the same men producting these works both before and after that time.  I've butted heads with some who felt that it was impious to question anything that had a pre-1960s imprimatur on it, where he was basically implying that these things were protected by some kind of infallibility.

    So, just be careful that in exaggerating the claims of your position you aren't actually undermining its core principles, or at least rendering them less credible and persuasive.  Just imagine if SSPX put up a new building near you, and the walls were covered with depictions of genitalia and various homo-erotic art.  So, if that would be wrong ... and it would be ... it doesn't make it less wrong just because some Pope did it.  Most SVs also rejected the Pius XII Holy Week changes (the CMRI being the major exception) and think that Pope certainly made some prudential judgments (at least) where it comes to the acceptance / endorsement of those proto-Modernist changes.  So if that's the case, what protection is there over their choice of art at the Vatican?  We should also then defer our opion regarding the "judgment" of the "divinely appointed successors" of St. Peter about whether they should have mistresses and father illegitimate children?


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Some Pre-Vatican II Art Scandalous/Subversive?
    « Reply #5 on: May 13, 2024, 06:18:13 AM »
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  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sɛҳuąƖly_active_popes

    You'll notice that there were a large concentration of these types (including the ones who were credibly accused of having been sodomites) right around the time of the Renaissance, including Julius III, who was accusing of having sodomitical relations with a man he elevated from obscurity to become a Cardinal ... and Julius was one of Michaelangelo's patrons.  Julius II, also a patron of Michaelangelo, had 3 illegitimate daughters and was also accused of sodomy as well.  Just the choice of the name "Julius" for a papal name should give one pause.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Julius_II
    Quote
    Nicknamed the Warrior Pope, Battle Pope or the Fearsome Pope, he chose his papal name not in honour of Pope Julius I but in emulation of Julius Caesar.
    ...
    In 1506, Julius II established the Vatican Museums. ... In 1508, he commissioned the Raphael Rooms and Michelangelo's paintings in the Sistine Chapel.
    ...
    Pope Julius II allowed people seeking indulgences to donate money to the Church, which would be used for the construction of Saint Peter's Basilica. He was fiercely satirized after his death by Erasmus of Rotterdam in "Julius Excluded from Heaven", in which the drunken pope, denied entry by St Peter, justifies his worldly life and threatens to found his own paradise.

    So not only was he a drunk (and in the other articles a pervert, with 3 illegitimate daughters and accused also of sodomy), but he also started the "selling" of indulgences which touched of the Prot Reformation (or was at least a major excuse for it).  This is the "Sistine Chapel" guy.

    From the first link above about Julius II:
    Quote
    Three illegitimate daughters, one of whom was Felice della Rovere (born in 1483, twenty years before his election as pope, and twelve years after his enthronement as bishop of Lausanne). The schismatic Conciliabulum of Pisa, which sought to depose him in 1511, also accused him of being a "sodomite".

    Then about Julius III:
    Quote
    Accusations of his ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity spread across Europe during his reign due to the favouritism shown to Innocenzo Ciocchi Del Monte, who rose from beggar to cardinal under Julius' patronage.

    Of course, just the fact that Julius III took on the papal name of Julius II (despite his repuation for perversion) says something.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Some Pre-Vatican II Art Scandalous/Subversive?
    « Reply #6 on: May 13, 2024, 08:30:15 AM »
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  • Quote
    And if some Popes haven't corrected these things, for the good/holy ones, it's probably because they had many higher priorities (bigger fish to fry) just battling against the Church's enemies and dealing with issues in the Church, whereas the less good/holy ones simply didn't care.
    Someone just told me a story the other day about good catholics who asked Pope St Pius X to get rid of all the immodest statues in Rome.  He agreed that such should be removed but basically told them, "I've got bigger things to fix and protect at the moment."  He certainly did. 

    Pope St Pius V only reigned for 6(!) years.  He did a WHOLE lot in 6 years.  He too, had bigger fish to fry than repainting the Sistine chapel.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Some Pre-Vatican II Art Scandalous/Subversive?
    « Reply #7 on: May 13, 2024, 08:39:07 AM »
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  • Quote
    In 1506, Julius II established the Vatican Museums. ... In 1508, he commissioned the Raphael Rooms and Michelangelo's paintings in the Sistine Chapel.
    ...
    Pope Julius II allowed people seeking indulgences to donate money to the Church, which would be used for the construction of Saint Peter's Basilica. He was fiercely satirized after his death by Erasmus of Rotterdam in "Julius Excluded from Heaven", in which the drunken pope, denied entry by St Peter, justifies his worldly life and threatens to found his own paradise.
    Christendom was at its height in the 1200s.  From the 1300s-1400s, it showed a lot of decay, both in Rome and in the "catholic" kings/princes around europe.  The "Renaissance" was so named by the enemies of the Church (the same people who control history books and everything else) because it was a return of debauchery (which they called "art) and a loss of power/prestige for Catholicism.


    Let's not forget that all this wickedness led to Protestantism; much of the "99 thesis" that Martin Luther listed were legit concerns and the German people, in particular, were fed up with the rottenness in the Church.

    The devil used one extreme (Renaissance luxury and corruption) to create a worse extreme (Protestant heresies/schism), which was an over-reaction to the first extreme.  Let us all be on guard against extremism and emotion!


    Offline B from A

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    Re: Some Pre-Vatican II Art Scandalous/Subversive?
    « Reply #8 on: May 13, 2024, 09:08:48 AM »
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  • Pope St Pius V only reigned for 6(!) years.  He did a WHOLE lot in 6 years.  He too, had bigger fish to fry than repainting the Sistine chapel.

    His predecessor already had loincloths painted over:

    Quote
    Pope Pius IV ordered the placement of fig leaves and loincloths on Michelangelo’s nudes during the 1560s.



    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Some Pre-Vatican II Art Scandalous/Subversive?
    « Reply #9 on: May 13, 2024, 09:14:20 AM »
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  • Agreed.  Sodomites like Michaelangelo spewed their filth everywhere, and we had a series of worldly (and even perverted) popes that encouraged this stuff.  Some Popes tried to do something about it, such as the so-called "Fig Leaf" campaign that came out of Trent.  Of course Wojtyla had the fig leaves removed and the genitalia restored to their full glory.  If I were Pope, very early on I'd order the Sistine chapel sandblasted, and the statues of the various pagan gods in the Vatican museum pulverized.  I would never offer Mass there at the Sistine.  You elevate the Sacred Host during Mass to, what?, see genitals hanging down over Our Lord or naked butts?  Ridiculous.  None of that had any business ever being in a House of God.

    It just so happens that many most of the men who have great artistic talent are sodomites, along the lines of the "Queer Eye" syndrome.

    Michaelangelo was queer? I did not know that, but I agree with all you say in your post. Also WWCS's OP. 

    Makes a lot of sense.