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Poll

If Pope Pius XII had put St. Joseph in the Canon, what would you have done?

I would accept the change and attend St. Joseph Masses
19 (61.3%)
I would not accept the change and would attend only dissident non-St. Joseph Masses
1 (3.2%)
I would accept the change and attend either St. Joseph Masses or non-St. Joseph Masses
11 (35.5%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: February 03, 2024, 11:15:00 AM

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Author Topic: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass  (Read 35868 times)

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Offline OABrownson1876

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Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« on: January 24, 2024, 11:15:00 AM »
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    • The Canon of the Mass is 967 words (I cut and pasted the '62 Missal and did a word count).  This being said, hypothetically speaking, Pius XII could have added St. Joseph to the Canon because, as we all must know, in non-essentials the pope has power over the Canon of the Mass.  I understand the argument, "But putting St. Joseph in the Canon opens the door of change..."  I get it.  It would have been interesting had Pope Pius, instead of John, added St. Joseph to the Canon. 
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    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #1 on: January 24, 2024, 11:42:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: OABrownson1876 on January 24, 2024, 11:15:00 AM
    The Canon of the Mass is 967 words (I cut and pasted the '62 Missal and did a word count).  This being said, hypothetically speaking, Pius XII could have added St. Joseph to the Canon because, as we all must know, in non-essentials the pope has power over the Canon of the Mass.  I understand the argument, "But putting St. Joseph in the Canon opens the door of change..."  I get it.  It would have been interesting had Pope Pius, instead of John, added St. Joseph to the Canon.
    Dear OABrownson1876,

    Please cite any docuмent by a pope or a council stating that "in non essentials the pope has power over the Canon of the Mass."  What is the Canon of the Mass and which part is non essential to what? 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #2 on: January 24, 2024, 01:40:27 PM »
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    • Personally, I see nothing wrong with adding St. Joseph, if it were up to me, I'd say it's a good thing, but Quo Primum is pretty insistent about not adding and not omitting anything.

    Quo Primum states:
    Quote
    All other of the churches referred to above, however, are hereby denied the use of other missals, which are to
    be discontinued entirely and absolutely; whereas, by this present Constitution, which will be valid henceforth, now, and forever, We order and enjoin that nothing must be added to Our recently published Missal, nothing omitted from it, nor anything whatsoever be changed within it under the penalty of Our displeasure.
    I could be wrong, but it says that this does *not* apply *only* to those Churches with "the practice of saying Mass differently was given at the very time of the institution and confirmation of the church by Apostolic See at least 200 years ago..."

    All that being said, the penalty for adding St. Joseph is "Our displeasure?" Not sure I fully understand that.
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    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #3 on: January 24, 2024, 02:16:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: OABrownson1876 on January 24, 2024, 11:15:00 AM
    The Canon of the Mass is 967 words (I cut and pasted the '62 Missal and did a word count).  This being said, hypothetically speaking, Pius XII could have added St. Joseph to the Canon because, as we all must know, in non-essentials the pope has power over the Canon of the Mass.  I understand the argument, "But putting St. Joseph in the Canon opens the door of change..."  I get it.  It would have been interesting had Pope Pius, instead of John, added St. Joseph to the Canon.
    Dear OABrownson1876,

    We do not all know what you know.  Please share with us the following:

    1).  Cite all the docuмents you can find which allow a pope to change the Canon of the Mass.

    2).  Define what "liturgy" is, and list all the liturgical books of the Church.

    3).  Define what the "Canon of the Mass" is, including where it starts and ends.

    4).  Cite all the docuмents of the Church that do not allow a pope to change the Canon of the Mass.

    Thank you.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #4 on: January 24, 2024, 03:07:10 PM »
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    • I would argue that the Canon of the Mass is essential, and part of Tradition, being fixed by Pope St Gregory the Great in the 4th century.  Also, it was further codified by Quo Primum and Pope St Pius V.  To add St Joseph would be contrary to 1,600 years of history (and maybe longer).  It's unnecessary.

    For John XXIII to have legally added St Joseph, he would've had to have revised Quo Primum, which we know he didn't.  A papal committee in 1962 does not have the power to overrule an Apostolic Constitution (and arguably, Catholic Tradition), of Quo Primum.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #5 on: January 24, 2024, 03:29:45 PM »
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    • Pope Pius XII was a legitimate Pope and has the authority to make such a change.  Canon of the Mass was not simply dropped from Heaven one day, but developed little by little here and there, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.  And the Papacy is guided by the Holy Spirit.

    I would also accept the 1955 Holy Week changes, though I suspect that Pius XII may not have actually been behind those, apart from the time change ... with which I perfectly agree.  When Pius XII spoke of the Holy Week reform, he spoke almost exclusively about the time change, and by 1955 his health was in serious decline, and it's possible that he didn't even know all that was there in the changes.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #6 on: January 24, 2024, 03:53:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Texana on January 24, 2024, 11:42:09 AM

    Dear OABrownson1876,

    Please cite any docuмent by a pope or a council stating that "in non essentials the pope has power over the Canon of the Mass."  What is the Canon of the Mass and which part is non essential to what?

    Texana,

    Here you go:


    Quote
    Council of Trent, Session XXI

    CHAPTER II.


    The power of the Church as regards the dispensation of the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

    It furthermore declares, that this power has ever been in the Church, that, in the dispensation of the sacraments, their substance being untouched, (l) it may ordain,- or change, what things soever it may judge most expedient, for the profit of those who receive, or for the veneration of the said sacraments, according to the difference of circuмstances, times, and places. And this the Apostle seems not obscurely to have intimated, when he says; Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God. (m) And indeed it is sufficiently manifest that he himself exercised this power,- as in many other things, so in regard of this very sacrament; when, after having ordained certain things touching the use thereof, he says; The rest I will set in order when I come. (n) Wherefore, holy Mother Church, knowing this her authority in the administration of the sacraments, although the use of both species has,- from the beginning of the Christian religion, not been unfrequent, yet, in progress of time, that custom having been already very widely changed,- she, induced by weighty and just reasons,- has approved of this custom of communicating under one(o) species, (p) and decreed that it was to be held as a law; which it is not lawful to reprobate, or to change at plea sure, without the authority of the Church itself.

    Pius XII, Mediator Dei

    It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification.[50] Bishops, for their part, have the right and duty carefully to watch over the exact observance of the prescriptions of the sacred canons respecting divine worship

    ********the footnote 50 reference in Mediator Dei

    Code of Canon Law (1917)

    Canon 1257    . Unius Apostolicae Sedis est tum sacram ordinare liturgiam,tum liturgicos approbare libros.

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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #7 on: January 24, 2024, 04:00:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 24, 2024, 03:07:10 PM
    I would argue that the Canon of the Mass is essential, and part of Tradition, being fixed by Pope St Gregory the Great in the 4th century.  Also, it was further codified by Quo Primum and Pope St Pius V.  To add St Joseph would be contrary to 1,600 years of history (and maybe longer).  It's unnecessary.

    For John XXIII to have legally added St Joseph, he would've had to have revised Quo Primum, which we know he didn't.  A papal committee in 1962 does not have the power to overrule an Apostolic Constitution (and arguably, Catholic Tradition), of Quo Primum.

    First, it would be nice if you could provide a source for the claim that the change was done by a "papal committee."

    Second, even if a papal committee - since it is a "papal" committee I'm assuming the pope wanted them to do some committee work on whatever he wanted, no? - what does that matter if the pope approves of, and authorizes, their work?
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #8 on: January 24, 2024, 04:10:30 PM »
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    • Disliking something or preferring the status quo and no change doesn't make the change illicit or invalid.


    Quote
    It furthermore declares, that this power has ever been in the Church, that, in the dispensation of the sacraments, their substance being untouched, (l) it may ordain,- or change, what things soever it may judge most expedient, for the profit of those who receive, or for the veneration of the said sacraments, according to the difference of circuмstances, times, and places.


    That sounds like a pre-authorization for the Novus Ordo revisions to the liturgy right there.

    My issue with the NO has always been in the vernacular, with the outright falsification of the words of Our Lord in the institution, and for the outright lie in saying Our Lord said something he didn't say. The vernacular was a clear alteration of the form of the sacrament, all the absurd "but in Aramaic" Our Lord said this bull crap just making the abomination worse (perhaps God left us the original form in Greek, and then inspired Jerome in the Latin, for a reason - ya think? Plus, no one from the ICELs of the world was there; perhaps Our Lord spoke in Greek to those Galilean fishermen who probably spoke Greek. It's all crass speculation. We know how God in His revelation passed it down to us.

    No legislation can justify such a thing.

    But the Church and the pope as its sovereign could change the liturgy without altering the form of the sacrament, though  irritating, frustrating one, driving one into apoplexy or, arguably, schism depending on the response, as it might.
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    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #9 on: January 24, 2024, 04:13:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on January 24, 2024, 03:53:47 PM

    Texana,

    Here you go:


    Dear DecemRationis,
    Please continue.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #10 on: January 24, 2024, 04:31:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Texana on January 24, 2024, 04:13:22 PM
    Dear DecemRationis,
    Please continue.

    I'll try to come up with some more relevant quotes.
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    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #11 on: January 24, 2024, 04:36:54 PM »
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    • Quote
    It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification.[50] Bishops, for their part, have the right and duty carefully to watch over the exact observance of the prescriptions of the sacred canons respecting divine worship
    The above is point 58 of the docuмent.  Below, is point 50, which comes before it.  That's why the above point says "it follows from this...".  Meaning, the pope enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God (not including the Divine elements, which (per point 50), cannot be changed in ANY WAY by men.



    Quote
    50. The sacred liturgy does, in fact, include divine as well as human elements. The former, instituted as they have been by God, cannot be changed in any way by men. But the human components admit of various modifications, as the needs of the age, circuмstance and the good of souls may require, and as the ecclesiastical hierarchy, under guidance of the Holy Spirit, may have authorized.

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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #12 on: January 24, 2024, 04:37:30 PM »
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    • There's a lot of murkiness around the changes to the liturgy in the 60s, or late 50s. I've read the claim (of course, without source provided) that the "for all" was being introduced into the Mass even before the Novus Ordo.

    Anyone know of a good study about the changes that were made to the liturgy before the Novus Ordo? I believe there were several official - Vatican approved - changes in the Latin Mass throughout the 60s. And then there was all kinds of nonsense going on with the bishops in various countries, such as my own USA, making changes.

    The whole period is a mess, and apparently there's no good record of it. Or is there? Again, anyone know of a good study on this?
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #13 on: January 24, 2024, 04:39:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 24, 2024, 04:36:54 PM
    The above is point 58 of the docuмent.  Below, is point 50, which comes before it.  That's why the above point says "it follows from this...".  Meaning, the pope enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God (not including the Divine elements, which (per point 50), cannot be changed in ANY WAY by men.

    :facepalm:

    So?

    No one here is claiming (and definitely not me) that the sacred liturgy doesn't have divine elements- the form of the consecration, for example.
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Merry

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #14 on: January 24, 2024, 04:41:48 PM »
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    • Just to mention it - When Fr. Feeney heard that St. Joseph was to be added to the Canon, he was immediately alarmed, saying:

    "This is wrong.  They should never touch the Canon!"
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