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Author Topic: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?  (Read 53707 times)

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Offline Mark 79

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Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
« Reply #105 on: January 02, 2022, 01:40:00 PM »
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  • Put in laymen’s terms: those people were already crap people [emphasis added] without the pot. It would’ve made not too much difference.

    Thanks, Mark. For your balanced assessment. [You are most welcome!]

    On a side note, SSPX priests classify the use of CBD, Delta 8 and THC all in one. With a doctor’s prescription it is licit. Otherwise, all are potentially mortally sinful.

    Interestingly, the exhaustive list given earlier in this thread could be equally applied in the same fashion to the witchbox (Internet).

    Clarity! Since Meg and Tradman were invoking their "pothead" relatives, I tried to be a bit more oblique, but, yes, you nailed it.

    Part of psychiatric diagnosis involves assessing what drugs (licit or illicit) the patient prefers and avoids. For example, schizophrenics typically avoid MJ after they have tried it once, because it tends to disorganize their already muddled thinking and emoting. Schizophrenics tend to abuse alcohol and sedatives because, at higher doses, "downers" quiet them down. Manic patients prefer sedatives and avoid cocaine and  "speed." Depressed patients like "speed" and cocaine, and vary in their response to the different strains of MJ (some of which are activating and some of which are calming).

    Certainly there are dysfunctional "potheads," but, as you say, most of them didn't start out quite right emotionally, mentally, or spiritually.

    The way that Meg and Tradman have approached this subject is analogous to this—They see a guy road-raging in his Ford truck and conclude that Fords make people road rage.

    When I entered this thread the first thing I noted "the risk of walking into the “beaten zone”*** of someone else's firefight…" fully knowing that there is no shortage anywhere of opinionated people who tendentiously hold to opinions no matter how much solid evidence weighs against their pre-judgment.

    As you note, some lump the "monotherapies" (CBD alone, THC alone, etc.) with whole plant products and potent extracts. Such lumped generalizations are flawed. I will return to that subject when I answer Lad's questions.

    Touché regarding the witchbox!  Tradman and Meg are rabid in attacking the dangers of MJ and are in foolish denial and/or diminution of the analogous risks of alcohol—and the internet that they are using.

    They are like the priests who rail against the use of the internet—meanwhile even the SSPX has websites.


    :facepalm:

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #106 on: January 02, 2022, 01:41:35 PM »
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  • For those who say that medical authorities and scientists say that marijuana has positive medical benefits, would those medical authorities and scientists be the same ones who tell us that face masks prevent the spread of a virus, that everyone needs to be vaccinated in order for the vaccination to work, that we need to be completely isolated to protect us from the "deadly Omicron variant", and who say that men can menstruate and there is absolutely no difference between a man who says he's a woman and an actual woman?

    Yeah.  I thought so.


    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #107 on: January 02, 2022, 01:41:50 PM »
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  • I have not read any of the studies, nor do I care one iota about any studies that say MJ is Ok to use, morally or physically. I am now in my late 60's and have seen first hand what marijuana does to people, and today the stuff is 10x more potent. Marijuana makes people lazy, they lose all drive. I would not defend its use because then my children will interpret that as that I am OK with it. Marijuana is excellent for one thing, and that is for seducing young women, a lot quicker than alcohol. Those of you defending MJ will likely have your daughters seduced with it and it will be your fault for not seeing your own stupidity.

    The same applies to alcohol, it just takes a little more work to use it to seduce.

    I consider both useless, and do not have the time to waste using them for any reason. MJ and alcohol make one an old man in their 30's. I got married at 47 with a girl that was 25, I could NEVER have done that if I had not been a young man.

    But that's just me. To each his own.
    i am(was) a distance runner who has run close to 70,000 in my life & I'm still at it. So much for the argument that MJ makes one lazy. :fryingpan:

    And btw-- I have been smoking MJ as long as I have been running. Has anyone in this forum run even 1 mile in the last 10 years??
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #108 on: January 02, 2022, 01:56:54 PM »
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  • i am(was) a distance runner who has run close to 70,000 in my life & I'm still at it. So much for the argument that MJ makes one lazy. :fryingpan:

    And btw-- I have been smoking MJ as long as I have been running. Has anyone in this forum run even 1 mile in the last 10 years??
    I have a MJ smoking friend who was working out with weights while you were running. He looks real buff today at 70. But, he lived off his wife and eventually she dumped him and then he went and lived off his father who was a doctor. The guy is a bum that lifts weights. Lazy and losing drive means not working and providing for a family. It has nothing to do with exercise. 

    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #109 on: January 02, 2022, 02:05:15 PM »
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  • A person who never does any excersize(sp?) is PLAIN LAZY. :popcorn:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #110 on: January 02, 2022, 02:21:39 PM »
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  • A person who never does any excersize(sp?) is PLAIN LAZY. :popcorn:
    Most people do not have the time to exercise, they are out working to provide for the family. Exercise didn't exist but for athletes and warriors and such till quite recently, people did not have the leisure time. Moreover, even today, many men work at hard labor which is exercise. Exercise is easier than hard work and providing for a family.

    When I was single, I lifted weights and I worked to build my wealth. If I just lifted weights, I 'd have had a easy life, going to the gym in the morning and evenings and sleeping in between and working as a busboy. I'd look unreal today, but I would have no family, and no money. 

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #111 on: January 02, 2022, 02:25:07 PM »
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  • A person who never does any excersize(sp?) is PLAIN LAZY.

    Says the inveterate BUM who did not take the two seconds required to look up how to spell one, common word!!!!  

    The software used on CI (and almost everywhere in the modern world) even tellz yoo wenn werds arr misspellt....HeL-Lo-O, McSh*t-4-Braynz!  :fryingpan:

    roscoe,

    Home-slice, just light up...and STFU...and spare us any and all of your "insights" about anything whatsoever.  Thanks.  Godspeed.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #112 on: January 02, 2022, 02:31:08 PM »
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  • Has anyone in this forum run even 1 mile in the last 10 years??

    I do ten miles (give or take) every single day as part of my job. 
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #113 on: January 02, 2022, 02:31:23 PM »
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  • BOLD is Mark 7:9

    I think we need to put aside some of the Puritanical and political aspects of marijuana use and focus on the PRINCIPLE of why either MJ or alcohol use would be sinful or wrong.

    It has to do with the alteration of the faculties.  When one gets to a point of losing control of one's higher faculties, the ability to reason, especially morally, one commits a grave sin by using the substance ... without sufficient reason.  So, for instance, if you're in extreme pain, there's nothing sinful about getting "high" with morphine or some other such drug.  So the only real differences, morally, between the two are 1) that you can get to that point a lot quicker with MJ than with alcohol ... and 2) possibly the legality.  Let's say, however, that we're in a state where recreation use is legal.

    An anecdote: I had never understood the attraction of narcotics. I had taken half of a Vicodin tablet after a wisdom tooth extraction and just had nightmares without any significant pain relief. When my appendix ruptured, they gave me morphine and I got itchy and groggy. THEN… when I had my cardiac bypass 5 years ago, I had an amusing insight. While I was still in the ICU with post-op pain I was passing a kidney stone. Serious pain from the surgery and the stone. They gave me an IV dose of Dilaudid (quite close chemically to heroin) and within about 10 seconds I was floating on clouds with angels playing harps, and zero pain. I then understood the attraction.


    If one gets "tipsy" or slightly elated, then that could be a venial sin without sufficient reason.  Sacred Scripture itself states that "wine brings joy to the heart of man".  So even the induction of a bit of elation (what some would call "recreational" use has a place).  Jone says that small amounts might be indulged in without sin for proportionate reason for things like relaxing the nerves.

    Precisely so!  "Titration" of dose makes it possible to avoid becoming sinful.

    The Puritanical among us seem to condemn anything joyful


    So there's a direct proportionality between the degree to which the higher faculties are effected and the justifying reason.  Complete loss of the faculties requires a grave reason, whereas a very slight impairment of the faculties would require a lesser reason.  And this could vary from individual to individual.  Some people might retain total control overthemselves with a bit of win or even MJ, whereas others might lose control and put themselves into occasions of sin.

    Exactly why I have emphasized risk/benefit analysis before embarking on use of MJ or alcohol.

    I've never used MJ, so I wouldn't know whether it's possible to take a couple hits and just get a little tipsy while maintaining control of one's faculties, no different than if one indulged in a couple glasses of wine or beer.  But assuming that's possible, I would see no moral reason for entirely avoiding it.

    Precisely so.

     MJ seems not to be addictive in the manner of opiates,…

    Because MJ causes NO ADDICTION, the rabid enemies of MJ have tried to change the definition of "addiction."

    Just as they changed the definition of "vaccine" to allow the COVID gene therapy to be called a vaccine.



    …but variouis "addictive personalitles" should probably cautioned to avoid it, just as those prone to alcoholism need to avoid alcohol altogether even where it might be justified for someone without the problem. 

    Perfect. Rational!

    Even the tiniest amount of addictive opiates for recreational reasons would be a serious sin due to the risk of becoming hooked (which happens often) and the absolutely destructive impacts it could have on one's life.  I've also heard of people "micro-dosing" with MJ, where they barely feel any effect related to the impairment of their natural faculties.

    Precisely so. The risks from "disinhibition" are manageable in NORMAL people. Ahem!

    Politically and historically, the major reason that MJ was outlawed was because some of the earliest motor vehicles ran on hemp oil, so Big Oil had to get rid of the competition, and they launched a major campaign to demonize it. 

    Part of the demonization was to connect MJ use with blacks and Mexicans. Alcohol was the preferred drug of WASPs. Interestingly, America's first forays into "gun control" was also framed as a race issue.

    Then there were Puritanical movements to outlaw alcohol durign the Prohibition era that of course failed.

    Failed catastrophically.

    So, in summary, I don't see any reason that medical use of MJ would be sinful provided that it does provide relief for various ailments, and that might even include people who suffer from anxiety or other ailments and who might benefit fromt the relaxation effects (again assuming they would use small amounts to the point necessary to alleviate their condition).  Even a tiny amount could be justified for "recreational" use in the same way that it's OK to have a bit of wine or beer to lift one's spirits.

    I'll add this. There is an enormous array of potencies. At the low end are the street weed of the '60s (3-5%THC/0.4%CBD) and today's "balanced" strains (e.g., "Harlequin" 8%THC/8%CBD). Stepping up the potency one can buy very potent leaf  (e.g., "Durban Poison" 20%THC/0.1%CBD) and concentrates like trichome head cells, hashish, and Rick Simpson Oil (40-50%THC/scant CBD).

    So, a single puff of a balanced strain may give relief of seizures, muscle spasms, nausea, or pain without any elation or sinful risk of disinhibition in a NORMAL person.

    It may take more for relief and risk of disinhibition may increase. As you say, Lad, the individual must make their own assessment. in discussion with their confessor, as to whether or not the risk is acceptable.

    Through the course of my advocacy, I have met 8 people who have beaten advanced or aggressive cancers (e.g., glioblastoma multiforme, "GBN") using "RSO" (Rick Simpson Oil). Every one of those 8 people did the same thing—an enormous dose of RSO daily for 60 days. Were they disinhibited? You bet. Was it worth it? Or should they have died instead?  I have NEVER met anyone who survived GBM for more than a couple of months using "standard of care" options. Yes, that is my anecdotal experience, but, exactly as I stated early in this dispute, anecdotal experience is useful for research leads—and evidence is accuмulating reading the benefits of cancer in treating cancer, not just treating the side-effects of "standard of care" cancer treatments.

    Now, most of the above concerns the medical use.

    What about recreational use?

    The same theological and physiological principles apply.

    Dose can be regulated with alcohol (a sip of wine, an entire beer, a fifth of gin) and it can be regulated with MJ (a puff of Harlequin, a gummy of CBD, a joint of potent leaf, or a "dab" of vaped oil). Alcohol is inherently toxic (that's why it is used as an antiseptic). MJ is NOT inherently toxic. You can die from an alcohol overdose.  You cannot die from a MJ overdose (unless you exclude oxygen!).

    Are there prophylactic benefits to certain uses of alcohol? Yes. A daily glass of wine reduces cardiac risk in certain populations.

    Are there prophylactic benefits to certain uses of MJ? Yes. Marijuana smokers have lower rates of cancer than NON-smokers.

    I advocate the appropriate use of medical MJ (not only for the sick, but also for prophylaxis) and have no opposition to the prudent use of MJ in NORMAL people.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #114 on: January 02, 2022, 02:40:41 PM »
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  • For those who say that medical authorities and scientists say that marijuana has positive medical benefits, would those medical authorities and scientists be the same ones who tell us that face masks prevent the spread of a virus, that everyone needs to be vaccinated in order for the vaccination to work, that we need to be completely isolated to protect us from the "deadly Omicron variant", and who say that men can menstruate and there is absolutely no difference between a man who says he's a woman and an actual woman?

    Yeah.  I thought so.

    Let's reframe that logical fallacy:

    "For those who say that priests say that marijuana has no medical benefits, would those priests be the same ones who sodomize altar boys or ignore reports of sodomy at summer camp?"

    Care to retract your asinine illogic?

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #115 on: January 02, 2022, 02:49:04 PM »
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  • …But as regards marijuana -and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong- for the last 30 years, the strength of it is such that, unlike alcohol, your faculty is severely modified and distorted after only a couple puffs.  Even for daily user addicts who are accustomed to its effects, its not that it no longer has a severe affect upon them, or that they have become tolerant to it, but rather that they have become acccustomed to long-term distortion of their rational faculty.…

    Flame away!…

    No flames are necessary.

    Asked and answered.

    There are more potent strains of leaf available today than in the '60s. Yet hashish was also available in the '60s (and still) and has potency comparable to even today's most potent concentrates.

    So the claim that MJ is "stronger" changes nothing about the manageability of dose by titration.

    Anyone who starts MJ using vaped "dabs" of oil is ill-advised.



    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #116 on: January 02, 2022, 02:53:27 PM »
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  • …I think modern man is afflicted by misery, and this accounts for even some Catholics defending marijuana use: They want something to kill the pain, and take a break from reality.  But if true, doesn't that prove the point?

    When has man not been afflicted by misery?

    When God threw Adam and Eve out of Paradise, did He promise that everything would be peachy-keen until the 21st century A.D.?

    Is a glass of champagne at a New Years Eve party "something to kill the pain and take a break from reality"?   Well… yeah… duh.

    So what?

    Should a Catholic wallow in misery every moment?   Or does God allow us a tiny bit of joy once in a while?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #117 on: January 02, 2022, 03:08:15 PM »
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  • When has man not been afflicted by misery?

    When God threw Adam and Eve out of Paradise, did He promise that everything would be peachy-keen until the 21st century A.D.?

    Is a glass of champagne at a New Years Eve party "something to kill the pain and take a break from reality"?  Well… yeah… duh.

    So what?

    Should a Catholic wallow in misery every moment?  Or does God allow us a tiny bit of joy once in a while?

    Hi Mark-

    I’m not sure that most people would equate a drink or two with an escape from reality (ie., the rational faculty is not injured), but probably would make that argument regarding taking a couple puffs of marijuana (which is much more incapacitating, and definitely does impair the rational faculty).

    Wouldn’t you agree?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Clarinha

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #118 on: January 02, 2022, 03:16:27 PM »
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  • What does "potentially mortally" sinful mean?  Doctor's prescription means nothing to me.  You could get a doctor's prescription and still have it be mortally sinful.  Let's say you're faking a condition of some kind.  Conversely, if you can't get to a doctor and someone has major factures and trauma and are in unbearable pain, you can use these substances without any doctor's prescription.

    And how can they possibly include CBD into the mix?  CBD doesn't make people high and is legal almost everywhere.  Moral consideration is whether you've lost control of our faculties.  Interestingly, CBD can offset and mitigate the "high-producing effects" of THC.
    I should not have used the word “potentially”.

    I am told that CBD is sinful because it still equates to self-medication.  

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Marijuana use sinful for Catholics?
    « Reply #119 on: January 02, 2022, 03:21:51 PM »
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  • I should not have used the word “potentially”.

    I am told that CBD is sinful because it still equates to self-medication.

    Self-medication, in and of itself, is not sinful.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."