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Author Topic: What is Weightier - A Disputed Dogmatic Fact, or a Theological Censure?  (Read 4995 times)

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Offline Johannes

What is Weightier - A Disputed Dogmatic Fact, or a Theological Censure?
« on: November 12, 2024, 01:05:40 PM »
I am sure this has come up before, so I will understand if few reply, but if one could direct me to the thread, I would be appreciative. If not here goes.

Example questions:

Dogmatic Fact: Was the Vatican II Council a legitimate ecuмenical council?

VS.

Theological Censure: Has the doctrine of Religious Freedom as taught by Vatican II been previously condemned (see below)?
 
"...men, possess the civil right not to be hindered in leading their lives in accordance with their consciences. Therefore, a harmony exists between the freedom of the Church and the religious freedom which is to be recognized as the right of all men and communities and sanctioned by constitutional law". 
Dignitatis humanae


If the dogmatic fact of Vatican II is beyond all dispute...

then it must be proven beyond all doubt that Paul VI was a true pope - for a general council must be ratified by a true pope. 

But, if Paul VI attempted to ratify even a single previously condemned theological censure into the doctrinal teachings of a legitimate council, what does this say about the legitimacy of said council and said pope?

In this exercise I am pitting secondary objects of infallibility against each other. What comes first - dogmatic facts as they appear to human senses, or previous condemnations of error? 

[Consideration] In order to maintain logical consistency in reasoning, must not one do both simultaneously.

a) Move in a linear fashion historically (i.e. what came first the dogmatic fact in question or the theological censure?).

b) Compare objects that have greater degree of certainty with those in dispute that are of a lesser degree of certainty (i.e. what is more necessary for transportation the horse or the cart? Or, put another way, what is more necessary to assent to - previous condemnations that are a danger to the faith, or to accept the purported legitimacy of a current pope, bishops, council, etc.?).

What are your thoughts? Thanks in advance!




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Online Stubborn

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Re: What is Weightier - A Disputed Dogmatic Fact, or a Theological Censure?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2024, 01:58:22 PM »
Not to be facetious but, what's the point?

+2000 bishops, 6 or 8 prot ministers and the pope held a meeting at what they said at different times was both (either?) an Ecuмenical Council and a Pastoral Council. Whatever happened in there resulted in a new religion. This is a dogmatic fact because we've been living the aftermath.

 
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Offline Meg

Re: What is Weightier - A Disputed Dogmatic Fact, or a Theological Censure?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2024, 02:12:35 PM »
Yet another incarnation of MarkM, Xavier Nishant, XavierSem, etc.?
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Offline NishantXavier

Re: What is Weightier - A Disputed Dogmatic Fact, or a Theological Censure?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2024, 02:27:31 PM »
I am not Johannes and have no idea who he is. Different people have different takes on the subject.
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Offline Meg

Re: What is Weightier - A Disputed Dogmatic Fact, or a Theological Censure?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2024, 02:28:55 PM »
Quote from: MarkM on November 12, 2024, 02:27:31 PM
I am not Johannes and have no idea who he is. Different people have different takes on the subject.

Uh huh. Right. 
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