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Author Topic: What does sedeprivationism actually solve  (Read 10013 times)

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Offline All Things New

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Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2023, 02:23:26 PM »
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  • It solves the problem of Father Cekada's "Aunt Helen" being able to wake up one morning and simply decide that a Pope is illegitimate and not the pope.

    In straight SVism there's no room whatsoever for the authority of the Church, which absolutely must play some kind of a role in determining whether a Pope is truly a non-pope.

    It addresses the same problem that John of St. Thomas articulates with regard to straight SVism, where the Church would be in chaos if any private individual could simply determine that a Pope is illegitimate at any given time.

    Thank you for this explanation. Will you please expand on what you mean by room for the Church's authority? Specifically, are you saying that there is an instance in which a sedevacantist would disregard the Church's authority (and the sedeprivationist would not)?

    Offline Durango77

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #16 on: November 12, 2023, 04:45:47 PM »
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  • Sedeprivationism isn’t R&R.

    I think Matthew is R/R and not a sedeprivationist, is why I said that.  Regarding sedeprivationism, I'm more and more intrigued by it as Bishop Sanborn and his priests have been really out there pushing it and doing more videos about it. Though it doesn't really seem to get us anywhere, as Francis would somehow have to convert right, throw V2 out the window? Francis doesn't seem like the type who would convert and seems to be setting up the next "papal conclave" to elect his hand picked successor, who likely will not be doing anything except continuing to push the V2 envelope.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #17 on: November 12, 2023, 04:49:17 PM »
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  • Quote
    It attempts to solve the Crisis problem
    No, it attempts to EXPLAIN the problem in theological/doctrinal terms.  

    Offline Durango77

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #18 on: November 12, 2023, 05:09:16 PM »
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  • After reading Fr Cekada's great response to the R/R position of the mid 90s, he brought up Paul IV.  How does sedeprivationism get around this from Cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio?



    "6. In addition, [by this Our Constitution, which is to remain valid in perpetuity We enact, determine, decree and define:-] that if ever at any time it shall appear that any Bishop, even if he be acting as an Archbishop, Patriarch or Primate; or any Cardinal of the aforesaid Roman Church, or, as has already been mentioned, any legate, or even the Roman Pontiff, prior to his promotion or his elevation as Cardinal or Roman Pontiff, has deviated from the Catholic Faith or fallen into some heresy:

    (i) the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless;

    (ii) it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration, of subsequent authority, nor through possession of administration, nor through the putative enthronement of a Roman Pontiff, or Veneration, or obedience accorded to such by all, nor through the lapse of any period of time in the foregoing situation;

    (iii) it shall not be held as partially legitimate in any way;

    (iv) to any so promoted to be Bishops, or Archbishops, or Patriarchs, or Primates or elevated as Cardinals, or as Roman Pontiff, no authority shall have been granted, nor shall it be considered to have been so granted either in the spiritual or the temporal domain;

    (v) each and all of their words, deeds, actions and enactments, howsoever made, and anything whatsoever to which these may give rise, shall be without force and shall grant no stability whatsoever nor any right to anyone;

    (vi) those thus promoted or elevated shall be deprived automatically, and without need for any further declaration, of all dignity, position, honour, title, authority, office and power."

    Offline Durango77

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #19 on: November 12, 2023, 05:26:46 PM »
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  • And I might be missing something here, but I thought all Papal writings are contained on the Vatican Website?  For some reason my searches for this docuмent on the Vatican website are coming up with nil.


    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #20 on: November 12, 2023, 05:46:35 PM »
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  • And I might be missing something here, but I thought all Papal writings are contained on the Vatican Website?  For some reason my searches for this docuмent on the Vatican website are coming up with nil.

    Vatican website papal docuмents don't go back to 1559. Try the PDF at this link: https://www.todayscatholicworld.com/cuм-ex-apostolatus-officio.pdf

    and in Latin at: https://la.wikisource.org/wiki/cuм_ex_apostolatus_officio
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #21 on: November 13, 2023, 07:30:04 AM »
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  • No take on the Crisis solves -- or is meant to solve -- anything.  Each and every one is an attempt to ascertain what happened during and after V2 and what that means with respect to the identity and whereabouts of Holy Church.  

    Even if God helped one to understand every single aspect of what happened from that day to this, NOTHING would actually be SOLVED.  
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #22 on: November 13, 2023, 10:25:37 AM »
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  • After reading Fr Cekada's great response to the R/R position of the mid 90s, he brought up Paul IV.  How does sedeprivationism get around this from Cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio?

    This has been addressed many times.  cuм ex is a legislative / disciplinary decree, and not primarily doctrinal (though there are some implied doctrinal principles), and the docuмents issued by St. Pius X and Pius XII seemed to indicate otherwise.  What Paul IV was doing here was in fact by his decree pre-emptively removing them from office, thereby also removing the formal link to offices held by manifest heretics ... but it does not run counter to sede-privationism, but in fact reinforces it.  Sedeprivationism is also implicit in the writings of St. Robert Bellarmine, where he distinguishes in the case of Nestorius someone who lost authority since he began to preach heresy (aka manifest his heresy pertinaciously) losing authority while being in a state of excommunicandus ... relying on the teaching of Pope St. Celestine.  So Nestorius lost all authority, but was not officially removed (excommunicatus) but rather in a state of pending excommunication excommunicandus.

    Straight SVism is untenable due to the argumentum ad absurdum of allowing Father Cekada's "Aunt Helen" to wake up one morning during the reign of Pope Pius XII (or a future Pope Pius XIII) and decided that the See is vacant because she had discovered heresy in his teaching.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #23 on: November 13, 2023, 10:39:56 AM »
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  • Straight SVism is untenable due to the argumentum ad absurdum of allowing Father Cekada's "Aunt Helen" to wake up one morning during the reign of Pope Pius XII (or a future Pope Pius XIII) and decided that the See is vacant because she had discovered heresy in his teaching.

    This is a problem that has never been adequately addressed by the straight SVs, and something that Bishop Sanborn also came to understand.  There has to be some principle to prevent this type of "chaos" in the Church (as John of St. Thomas characterized it), and that principle is not clearly articulated by SVs.  See, one could argue from Universal Peaceful Acceptance, but then UAP seems to fly in the fact of SVism, since Roncalli and Montini (at least in the beginning) were certainly universally accepted.

    Offline EWPJ

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #24 on: November 13, 2023, 10:51:28 PM »
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  • This is a problem that has never been adequately addressed by the straight SVs, and something that Bishop Sanborn also came to understand.  There has to be some principle to prevent this type of "chaos" in the Church (as John of St. Thomas characterized it), and that principle is not clearly articulated by SVs.  See, one could argue from Universal Peaceful Acceptance, but then UAP seems to fly in the fact of SVism, since Roncalli and Montini (at least in the beginning) were certainly universally accepted.

    The argument to this is that Aunt Helen could just be plain wrong and context matters.  If I wanted to go through let's say...Pope St. Linus's teaching and take something out of context and find "heresy" then the right way to handle that is to say they are wrong on the matter and to recant and in charity show them or tell them why they are wrong.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #25 on: November 14, 2023, 07:10:30 AM »
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  • The argument to this is that Aunt Helen could just be plain wrong and context matters.  If I wanted to go through let's say...Pope St. Linus's teaching and take something out of context and find "heresy" then the right way to handle that is to say they are wrong on the matter and to recant and in charity show them or tell them why they are wrong. 

    That's beside the point.  Of course one should try to persuade Aunt Helen that she's wrong.  But that would be your opinion against that of the Linus-vacantist.  There has to be an objective standard to know who is a Pope and who isn't, not just your private opinion that this individual is wrong.  And it isn't just about whether the individual is wrong materially in their interpretation of Linus' teaching, but that they are wrong to be holding that popes are not popes in principle.

    Let's say that someone decides that Pius XII was also non-pope because, according to him, Pius XII was a heretic for condoning NFP or condoning evolution or for permitting the liturgical changes, etc. ... and there are some out there who hold this.  What principle is there to prevent the individual from coming to this conclusion.  At this point, then, for this individual, the dogma of the Assumption is no longer a defined dogma.  Similar with Pius IX, and the chap I knew who decided that he was a non-pope.  At that point, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception is no longer a dogma, nor is the dogma of papal infallibility.  If Aunt Helen can start removing popes, then Aunt Helen can also start removing dogmas.

    Now, some hold that Universal Peaceful Acceptance provides the necessary a priori certainty regarding the legitimacy of a pope, and that the pope's legitimacy is known with dogmatic certainty.  Some theologians, however, only hold that the pope's legitimacy can be known with moral certainty, and they make a lot of good points.  Then you have to determine what constitutes Universal Peaceful Acceptance.  This is a complex issue.  But Universal Peaceful Acceptance poses a problem for Sedevacantism, since by the most accepted definition of the term, Roncalli and Montini (at least initially) had such Universal Peaceful Acceptance.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #26 on: November 14, 2023, 08:59:05 AM »
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  • Quote
    but that they are wrong to be holding that popes are not popes in principle.
    Right, Aunt Helen should know that she shouldn't even entertain the idea that it's possible, FOR HER, to reach this conclusion.  It's only possible for the Church to judge, and then TELL HER what to do.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #27 on: November 14, 2023, 04:13:09 PM »
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  • Related question, if we know, how do we know which popes were the true popes during the Great Western Schism?

    Also, if Urban VI was the true pope, peacefully accepted, but subsequently rejected by 15 cardinals, what does that make those cardinals if the person of the pope is a dogmatic fact?

    Certainly they can't be called neither schismatics nor heretics for doubting the validity of the election.

    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #28 on: November 14, 2023, 04:17:40 PM »
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  • By the way, as usual, I missed the part where it's explained how exactly sedeprivationism solves the epistemological problem.


    Offline All Things New

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #29 on: November 14, 2023, 04:21:07 PM »
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  • In practical terms, does being a sedeprivationist vs. a totalist/sedevacantist differ in terms of actions taken? Or would it only, theoretically, be in future actions, e.g. accepting a Novus Ordo pope who converted?