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Author Topic: What does sedeprivationism actually solve  (Read 9981 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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What does sedeprivationism actually solve
« on: November 11, 2023, 06:09:30 AM »
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  • As opposed to straight sedevacantism, what problem(s) does sedeprivationism actually solve or help explain? Serious question.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #1 on: November 11, 2023, 06:36:54 AM »
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  • I've addressed this many times.

    It solves the problem of Father Cekada's "Aunt Helen" being able to wake up one morning and simply decide that a Pope is illegitimate and not the pope.

    In straight SVism there's no room whatsoever for the authority of the Church, which absolutely must play some kind of a role in determining whether a Pope is truly a non-pope.

    It addresses the same problem that John of St. Thomas articulates with regard to straight SVism, where the Church would be in chaos if any private individual could simply determine that a Pope is illegitimate at any given time.

    This also undermines the authority of all dogma, since if a Pope were to define a dogma you don't like, you simply have to declare the See vacant to reject said dogma, and as a result there's no a priori guarantee of infallibility.

    These are very serious problems with straight SVism.  At the same time, there are serious problems with John of St. Thomas and Cajetan's solution.  Sedeprivationism finds the right balance between heresy deposing ipso facto and the requirement for the Church's authority to have some role in the matter.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #2 on: November 11, 2023, 07:13:59 AM »
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  • In about 1990 or so, I left SSPX seminary due to my convictions regarding SVism.  I had come to the conclusion that R&R was irreconcilable with Catholic doctrine regarding the indefectibility of the Church.  That's a typical progression.  I became a Traditional Catholic simply due to my general sensus Catholicus that the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church.  When I was in college, I read a book written by St. Alphonsus and it became evident to me that the faith expressed in his book was not the same as that held by the Conciliar Church.

    But once I got to seminary and began my study of Catholic doctrine, the Catholic ecclesiology to which I became exposed revealed to me the incompatibility between R&R and Traditional theology.  So I moved toward SVism and went to then-Father Sanborn's seminary (well, he started a seminary for me and one other guy).

    At one point, however, I ran into an SV chap who told me that he had decided that Pius IX had been a non-pope due to some "heresy" he had discovered in his teaching.  So this led to a bit of intellectual soul-searching.  I knew this was untenable but couldn't articulate why, based on the principles of straight SVism.

    I ended up leaving Father Sanborn, but then vacillated between SSPX and SVism for a number of years ... as neither approach seemed to be satisfactory.  After I had left SVism and moved back toward the SSPX, I ended up at The Catholic University of America and stayed for a couple years with Father Ringrose.  While I was there, someone at his chapel came up to me and mentioned how he had read a pamphlet by Father Cekada that he found persuasive, and was asking me to explain why I had backed away from SVism.  I told him that I'd write something up for him to explain my thoughts.

    So I wrote up this explanation and sent it to him.  This "docuмent" was eventually published by The Angelus in 1995.  I had never intended it for publication.  It was just a rough draft, something I cranked out in part of an afternoon.  Not only did The Angelus not bother to even ask me for my permission to publish it, but they engaged in some editing of the docuмent (without my approval) ... and even spelled my name wrong on the "article" ... as I didn't even put my name on it, since I just sent it to the man who had asked me for my thoughts and didn't feel that I had to put my name on it.  At one point, another young man at the chapel came up to me and said, "Congratulations."  I was confused and asked, "For what?"  "For your article in The Angelus."  I said, "What?"  I wasn't very happy with them.  SSPX knew I was staying with Father Ringrose and could have simply reached out to me about it.

    As a result, unfortunately, what was published was by no means a finished product.  Father Cekada issued a public refutation of the paper / letter, since I had mentioned in it that I was responding to his pamphlet.  In point of fact, I was only responding indirectly to the pamphlet, because the man who initially asked me simply mentioned that he had read it.  I myself had not even read the pamphlet and was not addressing anything concretely within it.  Father lambasted me for being pretentious for using lots of untranslated Latin, for showing off ... except, again, there was no such intention.  I just whipped this thing out in an afternoon and hadn't taken the time to translate the Latin.  There were a few times that The Angelus translated some Latin, and in a couple places the translation was not correct, and Father Cekada attacked me for that, even though I had not been the translator.

    In any case, I read his refutation and it was extremely weak and unconvincing, his major point being a serious blunder, where he confused the notion of dogmatic facts being "historical" to come to the conclusion that we cannot question the legitimacy of PAST popes unless there was someone who had been alive at the time who questioned them.  No, the term historical means simply that it's a point of history, an event, rather than a doctrinal proposition.

    I never really bothered to issue my own rebuttal to his refutation, since I had never intended to enter the public arena in the first place.

    I had as the subject, "Pope-Sifting:  Difficulties with Sedevacantism".  Father Sanborn had popularized the term "sifting the Magisterium" to describe the R&R notion that individuals could filter and sift the Magisterium based on their own judgment.  So, my issue stemmed from the problem with SVism where Catholics could, based on their own judgment, sift popes ... just as the one man sifted out Pius IX.  I had known of others who decided that St. Pius X, Pius XI, and Pius XII were also non-popes.

    Now, this paper was NOT intended as an endorsement of R&R, with which I still had serious issues, probably more issues than I had with straight SVism ... but of course The Angelus used it that way.

    After vacillating for many years due to the issues both with R&R and with SVism, I became acquainted with Sedeprivationism, and it was only there that I found the perfect balance between the problems with R&R and with straight SVism.

    Ironically, Father (and later Bishop) Sanborn himself ultimately also ended up (on a different path) at Sedeprivationism, and Father Ringrose has recently become a Sedevacantist (or some kind).


    Offline Durango77

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #3 on: November 11, 2023, 08:13:11 AM »
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  • In about 1990 or so, I left SSPX seminary due to my convictions regarding SVism.  I had come to the conclusion that R&R was irreconcilable with Catholic doctrine regarding the indefectibility of the Church.  That's a typical progression.  I became a Traditional Catholic simply due to my general sensus Catholicus that the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church.  When I was in college, I read a book written by St. Alphonsus and it became evident to me that the faith expressed in his book was not the same as that held by the Conciliar Church.

    But once I got to seminary and began my study of Catholic doctrine, the Catholic ecclesiology to which I became exposed revealed to me the incompatibility between R&R and Traditional theology.  So I moved toward SVism and went to then-Father Sanborn's seminary (well, he started a seminary for me and one other guy).

    At one point, however, I ran into an SV chap who told me that he had decided that Pius IX had been a non-pope due to some "heresy" he had discovered in his teaching.  So this led to a bit of intellectual soul-searching.  I knew this was untenable but couldn't articulate why, based on the principles of straight SVism.

    I ended up leaving Father Sanborn, but then vacillated between SSPX and SVism for a number of years ... as neither approach seemed to be satisfactory.  After I had left SVism and moved back toward the SSPX, I ended up at The Catholic University of America and stayed for a couple years with Father Ringrose.  While I was there, someone at his chapel came up to me and mentioned how he had read a pamphlet by Father Cekada that he found persuasive, and was asking me to explain why I had backed away from SVism.  I told him that I'd write something up for him to explain my thoughts.

    So I wrote up this explanation and sent it to him.  This "docuмent" was eventually published by The Angelus in 1995.  I had never intended it for publication.  It was just a rough draft, something I cranked out in part of an afternoon.  Not only did The Angelus not bother to even ask me for my permission to publish it, but they engaged in some editing of the docuмent (without my approval) ... and even spelled my name wrong on the "article" ... as I didn't even put my name on it, since I just sent it to the man who had asked me for my thoughts and didn't feel that I had to put my name on it.  At one point, another young man at the chapel came up to me and said, "Congratulations."  I was confused and asked, "For what?"  "For your article in The Angelus."  I said, "What?"  I wasn't very happy with them.  SSPX knew I was staying with Father Ringrose and could have simply reached out to me about it.

    As a result, unfortunately, what was published was by no means a finished product.  Father Cekada issued a public refutation of the paper / letter, since I had mentioned in it that I was responding to his pamphlet.  In point of fact, I was only responding indirectly to the pamphlet, because the man who initially asked me simply mentioned that he had read it.  I myself had not even read the pamphlet and was not addressing anything concretely within it.  Father lambasted me for being pretentious for using lots of untranslated Latin, for showing off ... except, again, there was no such intention.  I just whipped this thing out in an afternoon and hadn't taken the time to translate the Latin.  There were a few times that The Angelus translated some Latin, and in a couple places the translation was not correct, and Father Cekada attacked me for that, even though I had not been the translator.

    In any case, I read his refutation and it was extremely weak and unconvincing, his major point being a serious blunder, where he confused the notion of dogmatic facts being "historical" to come to the conclusion that we cannot question the legitimacy of PAST popes unless there was someone who had been alive at the time who questioned them.  No, the term historical means simply that it's a point of history, an event, rather than a doctrinal proposition.

    I never really bothered to issue my own rebuttal to his refutation, since I had never intended to enter the public arena in the first place.

    I had as the subject, "Pope-Sifting:  Difficulties with Sedevacantism".  Father Sanborn had popularized the term "sifting the Magisterium" to describe the R&R notion that individuals could filter and sift the Magisterium based on their own judgment.  So, my issue stemmed from the problem with SVism where Catholics could, based on their own judgment, sift popes ... just as the one man sifted out Pius IX.  I had known of others who decided that St. Pius X, Pius XI, and Pius XII were also non-popes.

    Now, this paper was NOT intended as an endorsement of R&R, with which I still had serious issues, probably more issues than I had with straight SVism ... but of course The Angelus used it that way.

    After vacillating for many years due to the issues both with R&R and with SVism, I became acquainted with Sedeprivationism, and it was only there that I found the perfect balance between the problems with R&R and with straight SVism.

    Ironically, Father (and later Bishop) Sanborn himself ultimately also ended up (on a different path) at Sedeprivationism, and Father Ringrose has recently become a Sedevacantist (or some kind).

    So you wrote an article that Fr Cekada felt the need to refute?  I'm a little skeptical, you got any proof for any of this?

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #4 on: November 11, 2023, 09:03:07 AM »
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  • As opposed to straight sedevacantism, what problem(s) does sedeprivationism actually solve or help explain? Serious question.

    I think it's much more reasonable. I know Sean Johnson steps outside his usual rational self when it comes to sede-impoundism, sede-privationism, etc. He almost becomes a different (irrational) person: he gets all angry and smears all the totally different positions together, calling them all "sedevacantist" or "sede-whatever".

    Again, I don't enjoy attacking Sean here, but I must state the truth: I knew Sean for 1.5 years IRL at the seminary, I've seen his writings for YEARS since then, and I would almost consider him an intellectual. Most of his writings are VERY logical and rational. He does his research. He's a good, clear writer. He is fervent for the Faith, and against error. So don't get the wrong idea.

    But in the past, Sean has switched almost to a different personality when discussing sedevacantism or any of the other "lite" versions of it. I don't think that's rational. He would need to demonstrate how they are different names for the same thing. Because obviously they're not. They're completely different positions.

    As to your question, I think you miss the point: neither R&R, Sedevacantism OR Sedeprivationism has "solved the Crisis" so they're quite equal in that regard...

    In my own fallible, personal opinion the Crisis in the Church (what happened to the Pope 50 years ago, Vatican II, the birth of the Conciliar Church, etc.) is LITERALLY a supernatural mystery, as in: the powers of man are insufficient to explain, much less fix it. Just like Man could have never figured out the Trinity without a revelation from God, not in a million years, so also Man will never figure out or solve this Crisis without a DIRECT intervention/revelation from God. And by direct I mean miraculous: If Our Lady, St. Michael, St. Peter, or an angel intervened on God's orders, that would count.

    And I've given reasons for my personal opinion: the Crisis hasn't been solved YET. And we're not just a couple decades into this Crisis, but more than FIVE decades. And frankly, given the devolution of mens' minds, education, etc. if the men living 1970-2020 weren't able to solve it, then the men from 2020 - 2070 have NO HOPE of solving it. No offense, but growing up in front of screens and with ever-poorer education does not make you any smarter.

    Look at where Bp. Williamson's education was at age 35. Or many others from his generation. Unfortunately they're not making any more of those.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #5 on: November 11, 2023, 09:30:04 AM »
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  • So you wrote an article that Fr Cekada felt the need to refute?  I'm a little skeptical, you got any proof for any of this?

    So you're saying I'm lying?  Google is your friend.  I gave the name of the "article" and Father Cekada's article comes up as the top result if you type it in there.  Also, to repeat, I did not write any article.  I wrote a paper or letter to a friend that The Angelus turned into an article without my consent, not a finished product by any means, but was just written as I would have jotted out a post on CI.

    EDIT:  to save you the trouble -- https://traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=42

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #6 on: November 11, 2023, 09:44:24 AM »
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  • Durango77, you obviously have a lot to learn. I do hope you're prepared to change your mind about many other things, because you were clearly DEAD WRONG here, bro.

    I hope you have the humility to admit that you don't know everything, and to change your mind and your "positions" as you learn new information.

    When you stop learning, you become an ignoramus and are almost certainly going to end up dead-wrong about multiple topics. No human knows everything out of the gate.

    You know, there was a "meme" decades ago before memes were a thing: the old meme that teenagers and young adults "know everything" and then later find out they don't.

    Well, there's no reason why someone in their 30's or 40's couldn't be wrong or uninformed about a few things too. There are just too many fields of expertise, and the Media is too full of lies, for everyone to full end up with a 100% collection of Truth early in life. Unfortunately it takes more work than that. You can't just go to public school and watch the Media and soak up the sweet, sweet truth.

    Just a few thoughts for this fine Saturday morning.
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #7 on: November 11, 2023, 11:50:43 AM »
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  • So you wrote an article that Fr Cekada felt the need to refute?  I'm a little skeptical, you got any proof for any of this?
    It is true. I witnessed the whole thing whilst standing afar.

    A gentleman or a lady does not question the veracity of another's statements without concrete knowledge to the contrary.

    BTW, Lad, what was the title of that journal published by then-Fr. Sanborn in the 1990s? My memory has clouded after 30 years.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila


    Offline Durango77

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #8 on: November 11, 2023, 12:05:56 PM »
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  • So you're saying I'm lying?  Google is your friend.  I gave the name of the "article" and Father Cekada's article comes up as the top result if you type it in there.  Also, to repeat, I did not write any article.  I wrote a paper or letter to a friend that The Angelus turned into an article without my consent, not a finished product by any means, but was just written as I would have jotted out a post on CI.

    EDIT:  to save you the trouble -- https://traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=42

    No, definitely not calling you a liar, I'm just from the show me state.  Thanks for linking the article.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #9 on: November 11, 2023, 12:30:32 PM »
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  • It is true. I witnessed the whole thing whilst standing afar.

    A gentleman or a lady does not question the veracity of another's statements without concrete knowledge to the contrary.

    BTW, Lad, what was the title of that journal published by then-Fr. Sanborn in the 1990s? My memory has clouded after 30 years.

    Ah, my memory is a bit cloudy also, but was it Sodalitium?  I helped put together and edit the few couple issues.  I wrote a couple articles for that in Latin (under a pen name that I can't recall either).  Yes, that was a long time ago.

    EDIT:  I had to Google search, and it was actually called Sacerdotium.  If I recall, Father Sanborn and I each wrote about half of the first issue in the Fall of 1990.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #10 on: November 11, 2023, 12:39:10 PM »
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  • No, definitely not calling you a liar, I'm just from the show me state.  Thanks for linking the article.

    Well, it was just your tone.  You could have just asked me for a link.  Basically, though, while I've revealed my true identity here before, I prefer not to do it too often ... since I have little doubt that there will come a day when some of us will be rounded up for some of the content we've posted here.  Oh, well, it's in God's Hands.

    I'm not particularly proud of that 1995 Angelus "article".  It was not especially well written.  Imagine writing out something very quickly ... a first rough draft (which is what it was), though I didn't have any intention of cleaning it up and improving it ... and having that published with your name on it.  Some of the criticisms from Father Cekada were that I was being pretentious by peppering the thing with Latin quotes, having footnotes with Latin in them, etc. ... which I only did because I didn't want to take the time to translate them, and then for a bad translation ... except that it wasn't my translation.  As I mentioned, they even spelled my name wrong, because I never put my name on this thing ... just printed it out (this was before e-mail was widespread) and handed it to the man who had asked me for my thoughts about SVism.  If I recall, I whipped the thing out in about 2 hours one Sunday afternoon, the bulk of which time was spent finding and reproducing some of the citations from the various theologians.  I still recall the last name of the gentleman who asked me for it, though I won't write it here.  While I was at St. Athanasius with Fr. Ringrose, I started and led a Gregorian schola, which was all men a capella, and we actually sounded pretty good, despite the fact that I had to teach a couple of these men how to read chant.  This gentleman was one of the schola members, and it was after a practice we had that he approached me and asked me for my thoughts.


    Offline Durango77

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #11 on: November 12, 2023, 01:17:03 AM »
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  • Durango77, you obviously have a lot to learn. I do hope you're prepared to change your mind about many other things, because you were clearly DEAD WRONG here, bro.

    I hope you have the humility to admit that you don't know everything, and to change your mind and your "positions" as you learn new information.

    When you stop learning, you become an ignoramus and are almost certainly going to end up dead-wrong about multiple topics. No human knows everything out of the gate.

    You know, there was a "meme" decades ago before memes were a thing: the old meme that teenagers and young adults "know everything" and then later find out they don't.

    Well, there's no reason why someone in their 30's or 40's couldn't be wrong or uninformed about a few things too. There are just too many fields of expertise, and the Media is too full of lies, for everyone to full end up with a 100% collection of Truth early in life. Unfortunately it takes more work than that. You can't just go to public school and watch the Media and soak up the sweet, sweet truth.

    Just a few thoughts for this fine Saturday morning.

    I do try to keep an open mind about this whole topic, though if you're thinking I'm going to join the R/R position, that is something that I don't think will ever happen.  As we are seeing where that position leads, basically back to the traditional NO camp, and their main position at this point seems to be evolving into "well Jesus is actually the head of the Church, just ignore Francis and pray for him".  

    I know private interpretations and private revelation don't count for anything outside of myself, but in my journey as a Catholic, when I converted I happened to live within walking distance of an SSPX chapel, and I never knew it was there until years after I had learned about Vatican 2, R/R, heretical "popes" and the SV positions.  To me that is God's providence keeping me away from the wrong path. 


    Offline Bellato

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #12 on: November 12, 2023, 09:59:56 AM »
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  • Quote
    I know private interpretations and private revelation don't count for anything outside of myself, but in my journey as a Catholic, when I converted I happened to live within walking distance of an SSPX chapel, and I never knew it was there until years after I had learned about Vatican 2, R/R, heretical "popes" and the SV positions.  To me that is God's providence keeping me away from the wrong path.

    The SSPX does not claim jurisdiction.  They expressly deny it.   You can go to their masses and disagree with them on their conclusions about the crisis and they do not say they have any authority to bind you. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #13 on: November 12, 2023, 11:29:46 AM »
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  • Quote
    though if you're thinking I'm going to join the R/R position, that is something that I don't think will ever happen.
    Sedeprivationism isn’t R&R.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: What does sedeprivationism actually solve
    « Reply #14 on: November 12, 2023, 11:52:16 AM »
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  • As opposed to straight sedevacantism, what problem(s) does sedeprivationism actually solve or help explain? Serious question.

    It doesn't. It attempts to solve the Crisis problem, but as with most man-made solutions regrading problems in the Church (e.g., Protestantism, and the long lines of heretics and heresies) which are not from God, it fails.

    Quote

    Colossians 2:8

    "Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy, and vain deceit; according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ

    It posits genuine hierarchs who it then divests of the power of true hierarchs. So it provides a variation of the R & R "cardboard" pope (thank you, Father Cekada). Its distinction from R & R is that it provides a "cardboard" pope with no authority whatsoever - except keeping the seat warm. So they can't be accused of their dreaded "sifting," which they accuse the R & R of doing: they reject everything the cardboard pope says and does, except his making of other "cardboards," e.g. bishops.


     
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.