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Author Topic: What does Bishop Williamson say about the validity of Novus Ordo orders?  (Read 5126 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: What does Bishop Williamson say about the validity of Novus Ordo orders?
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2021, 09:35:09 AM »
Vatican II and the NOM were done on purpose by enemies of the Catholic Church.

+?Vigano has finally come to realize this.

Offline gladius_veritatis

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Re: What does Bishop Williamson say about the validity of Novus Ordo orders?
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2021, 09:44:21 AM »
What is your position then?

I am not so sure history will not prove us all incorrect, at least in some respect or other.  If I HAVE to align with some take or other, the one that makes the most sense to me is Sede-privationism, or the Cassiciacuм Thesis of Guerard des Lauriers (who, aside from Fr. Stepanich OFM, was the only legit theologian in Traddieland).  

Pure sv-ism has unsolvable issues, as does r&r.  

When Christ was on earth, one of the chief reasons His followers were thunderstruck by His death was...Who would've thought God could DIE?  He did.

Christ said He'd be WITH the Church until the end, but isn't the life of Holy Church analogous to the life of Our Blessed Lord?  Well, He died.  Yes, His Divinity remained united to both His body and soul and thus He could reunite them at will.  Yet they truly separated, which is the definition of death.

Is there anything which says the Church, like Her Master, cannot die, at least in the sense that Her body and Her soul separate?  Would such a scenario necessarily void the promise to be with Her all days?

Much more to say but those are some basic thoughts.


Re: What does Bishop Williamson say about the validity of Novus Ordo orders?
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2021, 09:45:03 AM »
Here's a link docuмenting five Eucharistic Miracles. https://www.churchpop.com/2015/06/28/5-extraordinary-eucharistic-miracles-with-pictures/ Four, I believe, were in the traditional Mass (earlier centuries) and one was with a Priest ordained in the new rite.

Transubstantiation is a Miracle requiring the Power of God Himself. The devil can no more transubstantiate than he can create. I have a book by Fr. Mueller (before photographic/dna evidence etc, but based on eyewitness testimony) where Father says these Eucharistic Miracles are reason enough for non-Catholics to join the Church. Father also uses them as proofs of the Real Presence against Protestants. Vatican I says Miracles are supernatural motives of credibility that establish the Truth of the Catholic Religion.

Reason has a role in examining and investigating what has gone wrong in the last 50 years. But Faith is a greater light than reason, and the truths of Faith are more certain than the judgments of reason. If an apparent judgment of reason contradicts a certain truth of Faith, it is the former that is mistaken, not the latter. We will disagree, I suppose, till we have a holy Pope who will settle it. 

Our Lady in Quito, Who prophesied these times, spoke of the "Prelate who will restore the spirit of Her Priests", a statement which in its plain sense itself suggests the Priests are not invalid, but have lost their spirit; which, in due time, will be restored by the Holy Pope. 

Gladius Veritatis, are you a sedeprivationist? I am speaking of the principle by which we can know one rite is inferior to the other. There is a portion of every sacramental rite essential to validity; the rest, as Fr. G-L explains, belongs to the "integrity". If prayers that compose the integrity of the rite are removed, we can legitimately conclude, I would argue, that such rites are objectively inferior. 

Offline gladius_veritatis

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Re: What does Bishop Williamson say about the validity of Novus Ordo orders?
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2021, 09:52:33 AM »
Gladius Veritatis, are you a sedeprivationist? I am speaking of the principle by which we can know one rite is inferior to the other. There is a portion of every sacramental rite essential to validity; the rest, as Fr. G-L explains, belongs to the "integrity". If prayers that compose the integrity of the rite are removed, we can legitimately conclude, I would argue, that such rites are objectively inferior.

My name is Eamon.  You may use my Christian name, or GV, etc. -- whatever is most convenient.  If I were forced to align with a particular take or position, yes.  I believe time will reveal no position is completely correct.  This is the reason I find the lack of patience we have for one another to be utterly disgusting.  Hell, half the people in Traddieland have changed positions, sometimes more than once.  Yet, ALL latitude is for SELF, rather than for those with whom we disagree.  Wha???

While the removal of an integral part of a sacramental rite produces an effect, we must all be honest that such is not really what is under discussion when speaking of the NO "sacraments."

Offline gladius_veritatis

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Re: What does Bishop Williamson say about the validity of Novus Ordo orders?
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2021, 09:58:00 AM »
Vatican II and the NOM were done on purpose by enemies of the Catholic Church.

+?Vigano has finally come to realize this.

I only heard of him within the last six months (been on a lengthy sabbatical).

That it took him FIFTY years, all as a grown man, to see this is why my opinion of him, while positive, is far from warm and fuzzy or quasi-salvific.