Author Topic: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione (Read 20880 times)

Giovanni Berto · « **Reply #80 on:** December 22, 2023, 05:04:51 PM »

Quote from: Centroamerica on December 22, 2023, 02:44:16 PM

I will add to that that I did follow up in an email with Fr. Ernesto Cardozo about the blue jean mess just to see if that was universal among all the priests in Brazil. Fr. Cardozo more or less said it was nonsense and that if denin makes you a modernist because it is a modernist material than what do they think polyester blends are!

You have to love Fr. Cardozo. I don't know him personally, but I like his sermons a lot.

I thought that the fashion patrol was a job exclusive to ladies with too much free time. It is good to know that some of the clergy are engaging in this amusing activity too.

Yeti · « **Reply #81 on:** December 23, 2023, 04:06:31 PM »

Quote from: Geremia on December 20, 2023, 12:43:58 PM

It seems based off this comment:

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You know, the more I think about it, the more this video seems to me to imply the opposite of what is being claimed here.

Fr. Chazal is asked if Vigano was re-concsecrated, and he says "the necessary has been done". Well, what does the resistance think is necessary in every case of modernist holy orders? They think an investigation is necessary; they do NOT think re-ordination/consecration is always necessary. This was stated emphatically by Bp. Thomas Aquinas, as quoted earlier in this thread. So it makes more sense to take Fr. Chazal's words to mean, "The necessary has been done, [which is to investigate the validity of Vigano's holy orders, which has been done]"

Furthermore, the refusal to answer implies that Vigano was NOT re-consecrated. Think about it. Vigano is a diplomat, and as such he doesn't want to offend trads. Being consecrated sub-conditione wouldn't offend anyone. The sedevacantists would think this was necessary anyway, and the non-sedevacantists could just be told, "We figured his validity was a bit shaky, so we did it again just in case," as has been done with numerous priests in the SSPX who came in from the Novus Ordo. No one would have any objection that I can think of. Even the conservative Novus Ordos wouldn't care all that much either; they know and care very little about things like repetition of sacraments that imprint a character, or the validity of holy orders.

Not one person would object to Vigano receiving condition consecration.

On the other hand, sedevacantists would have a major problem if Vigano had declined to receive conditional consecration, and that seems to be the position Vigano has been wooing recently. So it seems Vigano is trying not to get on that group's bad side by saying he won't be re-consecrated.

What other possible reason could there be keep the re-consecration secret? To avoid putting a target on Vigano's back? Vigano has been putting targets on his own back for the past five years. He obviously isn't worried about that.

The only explanation of this that makes any sense to me is that there was no re-consecration.

2Vermont · « **Reply #82 on:** December 23, 2023, 04:27:16 PM »

Quote from: Yeti on December 23, 2023, 04:06:31 PM

.

You know, the more I think about it, the more this video seems to me to imply the opposite of what is being claimed here.

Fr. Chazal is asked if Vigano was re-concsecrated, and he says "the necessary has been done". Well, what does the resistance think is necessary in every case of modernist holy orders? They think an investigation is necessary; they do NOT think re-ordination/consecration is always necessary. This was stated emphatically by Bp. Thomas Aquinas, as quoted earlier in this thread. So it makes more sense to take Fr. Chazal's words to mean, "The necessary has been done, [which is to investigate the validity of Vigano's holy orders, which has been done]"

Furthermore, the refusal to answer implies that Vigano was NOT re-consecrated. Think about it. Vigano is a diplomat, and as such he doesn't want to offend trads. Being consecrated sub-conditione wouldn't offend anyone. The sedevacantists would think this was necessary anyway, and the non-sedevacantists could just be told, "We figured his validity was a bit shaky, so we did it again just in case," as has been done with numerous priests in the SSPX who came in from the Novus Ordo. No one would have any objection that I can think of. Even the conservative Novus Ordos wouldn't care all that much either; they know and care very little about things like repetition of sacraments that imprint a character, or the validity of holy orders.

Not one person would object to Vigano receiving condition consecration.

On the other hand, sedevacantists would have a major problem if Vigano had declined to receive conditional consecration, and that seems to be the position Vigano has been wooing recently. So it seems Vigano is trying not to get on that group's bad side by saying he won't be re-consecrated.

What other possible reason could there be keep the re-consecration secret? To avoid putting a target on Vigano's back? Vigano has been putting targets on his own back for the past five years. He obviously isn't worried about that.

The only explanation of this that makes any sense to me is that there was no re-consecration.

Could it affect his new seminary somehow? Because I keep going back to...why did he go public with that first?

Angelus · « **Reply #83 on:** December 23, 2023, 04:30:20 PM »

Quote from: Yeti on December 23, 2023, 04:06:31 PM

.

You know, the more I think about it, the more this video seems to me to imply the opposite of what is being claimed here.

Fr. Chazal is asked if Vigano was re-concsecrated, and he says "the necessary has been done". Well, what does the resistance think is necessary in every case of modernist holy orders? They think an investigation is necessary; they do NOT think re-ordination/consecration is always necessary. This was stated emphatically by Bp. Thomas Aquinas, as quoted earlier in this thread. So it makes more sense to take Fr. Chazal's words to mean, "The necessary has been done, [which is to investigate the validity of Vigano's holy orders, which has been done]"

Furthermore, the refusal to answer implies that Vigano was NOT re-consecrated. Think about it. Vigano is a diplomat, and as such he doesn't want to offend trads. Being consecrated sub-conditione wouldn't offend anyone. The sedevacantists would think this was necessary anyway, and the non-sedevacantists could just be told, "We figured his validity was a bit shaky, so we did it again just in case," as has been done with numerous priests in the SSPX who came in from the Novus Ordo. No one would have any objection that I can think of. Even the conservative Novus Ordos wouldn't care all that much either; they know and care very little about things like repetition of sacraments that imprint a character, or the validity of holy orders.

Not one person would object to Vigano receiving condition consecration.

On the other hand, sedevacantists would have a major problem if Vigano had declined to receive conditional consecration, and that seems to be the position Vigano has been wooing recently. So it seems Vigano is trying not to get on that group's bad side by saying he won't be re-consecrated.

What other possible reason could there be keep the re-consecration secret? To avoid putting a target on Vigano's back? Vigano has been putting targets on his own back for the past five years. He obviously isn't worried about that.

The only explanation of this that makes any sense to me is that there was no re-consecration.

I agree with you that we should not presume that Vigano has traditionally-valid Orders. As the Moral Theology manuals say, we must have "moral certainty" with regard to the Sacrament of Holy Orders. I will not support him financially until both he and his consecrators confirm publicly.

That said, I think the reason that Vigano doesn't want to make it public could be the "scandal" it would cause to non-Trads, including New Rite priests that might want to join him at his seminary. He may think it is too much for those people to digest at the moment. I am not defending that take on things. But I can see that as a valid concern if he is trying to attract people brainwashed by the Novus Ordo, which I think is his main target audience.

Yeti · « **Reply #84 on:** December 23, 2023, 04:42:45 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont on December 23, 2023, 04:27:16 PM

Could it affect his new seminary somehow? Because I keep going back to...why did he go public with that first?

.

I don't know. I certainly wonder who will ordain his seminarians. But being re-consecrated in the old rite wouldn't really affect his seminary anyway, since it couldn't possibly take away his episcopal character if he got re-consecrated in the old rite, so it wouldn't cause anyone to doubt his ability to ordain them if they wanted to join.

If anything, announcing his conditional consecration in the traditional rite would increase interest in his seminary, not decrease it, because then the people who don't accept the Montini rite of consecration would be able to join.

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Author Topic: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione (Read 20880 times)

Giovanni Berto

Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione

Yeti

Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione

2Vermont

Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione

Angelus

Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione

Yeti

Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione