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Author Topic: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione  (Read 21213 times)

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Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2023, 08:27:33 PM »
Bishop Thomas Aquinas refuses to reveal who the ordaining bishop was, where or when he was ordained. All the faithful know is he has a Novus Ordo ordination. That is it. You are not allowed to question it any further as far as I know. The video from their official youtube channel confirms this.

Someone should tell the bishop that sacraments, especially Holy Orders, are public business.

This is Catholicism, not Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ. :fryingpan:

Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2023, 08:45:23 PM »
Someone should tell the bishop that sacraments, especially Holy Orders, are public business.

This is Catholicism, not Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ. :fryingpan:
Good point!


Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2023, 09:38:58 PM »
Someone should tell the bishop that sacraments, especially Holy Orders, are public business.

This is Catholicism, not Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ. :fryingpan:

Tell that to Bishop Williamson, and to the various secret Thuc/Mendez consecrations/ordinations.

Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2023, 09:46:17 PM »
Tell that to Bishop Williamson, and to the various secret Thuc/Mendez consecrations/ordinations.
I've never heard of any secret Thuc consecrations.  I would reject any traditional bishop who claims to have been secretly consecrated by Archbishop Thuc.


Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2023, 11:05:05 PM »
Are you sure about this?
Oh yes, 100%.

You can read Archbishop Lefebvre's treatment of the new rite of ordination in Open Letter to confused Catholics:
http://sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/OpenLetterToConfusedCatholics/Chapter-7.htm

This is Fr Calderon's conclusion to his study (I hope to post the entire study soon):

Now, in a matter of the utmost importance for the life of the Church, such as the validity of the episcopate, it is necessary to have absolute certainty. Therefore, in order to be able to accept this rite with peace of conscience, it would be necessary to count not only on the judgement of theologians, but also on the infallible judgement of the Magisterium.

As for the practical attitude to be taken with regard to the new episcopal consecrations, the one that the Fraternity has maintained up to now seems to us to be justified:

1. The very probable validity of the rite seems to us to make it morally acceptable to occasionally attend Mass (traditional rite) celebrated by a priest or a bishop ordained or consecrated in the new rite, and even to receive communion therein; it seems to us acceptable, in case of necessity, to receive absolution from them; to treat them as priests and bishops and not as laymen in costume; it seems to us acceptable to allow them to celebrate in our own homes. For the shadows that hover over the validity of their priesthood are but shadows and in all these activities our responsibility is not engaged concerning the priesthood exercised. And the remote risk that a communion or an absolution may be invalid is not so serious.

2. But the positive and objective defects from which this rite suffers, which prevent us from being certain of its validity, it seems to us -until there is a Roman judgement, for which many things would have to change– justify and make necessary the conditional reordination of priests ordained by new bishops and, if necessary, the conditional reconsecration of these bishops. Such doubts cannot be tolerated at the very root of the sacraments (33).

Footnote 33 says "The moralists speak much about the necessity for certainty in the validity of the sacraments".

And here is Bishop Williamson on the same:
https://stmarcelinitiative.org/bishops-valid-ii/
https://stmarcelinitiative.org/bishops-valid-iii/