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Author Topic: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione  (Read 20914 times)

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Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2023, 05:09:54 PM »
In fact, the resistance does not consider the new rite of holy orders to have a doubtful form, as has already been shown in this thread.
Yeti, Archbishop Lefebvre never really addressed the issue of the new rite of episcopal consecration, but you will find that almost all in the Resistance hold to the opinion of Fr Calderon that there is doubt over this new rite 'which cannot be tolerated at the very root of the sacraments' and must therefore be repeated sub conditione. This is the opinion clearly expressed by Bishop Williamson in his ECs, and the reason why there was such an outcry over Bishop Huonder celebrating the Chrismal Mass on Holy Thursday this year. I get the impression that even the Dominicans seem unconvinced of the earlier conclusion of validity by Fr Piere Marie and in practice seem to lean towards conditional repetition of the consecration, though this may be more over concerns that the new rite does not guarantee the intention as did the old. 

Offline Yeti

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Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2023, 05:16:46 PM »
Yeti, Archbishop Lefebvre never really addressed the issue of the new rite of episcopal consecration, but you will find that almost all in the Resistance hold to the opinion of Fr Calderon that there is doubt over this new rite 'which cannot be tolerated at the very root of the sacraments' and must therefore be repeated sub conditione.
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Thank you for explaining this, and, while I understand that the resistance is not a unified body and can't be expected to have principles that are universally agreed upon, I have trouble with your claim here inasmuch as the only statement I have ever read by any resistance priest or bishop is the one by Bp. Thomas Aquinas, in which he said the new holy orders could be valid, and were in fact valid in the case of the novus ordo-ordained Fr. Jahir, and also the fact that none of the resistance priests or, especially, bishops ever made a public objection to Bp. Aquinas's claims if they had an objection to it, and in the absence of such a public rejection of his words I must conclude that they agree with them.

Another reason I have trouble believing that the resistance almost universally reject the new holy orders as always doubtful is Bp. Williamson's claim that the Holy Eucharist can be validly confected in the Novus Ordo mass, which brings us to the next point:

Quote
This is the opinion clearly expressed by Bishop Williamson in his ECs, and the reason why there was such an outcry over Bishop Huonder celebrating the Chrismal Mass on Holy Thursday this year.

I never noticed this, but if Bp. Williamson believes the new mass can be valid, then why would he have doubts as to the validity of the holy oils consecrated by Bp. Huonder?


Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2023, 07:29:20 PM »
Thank you for explaining this, and, while I understand that the resistance is not a unified body and can't be expected to have principles that are universally agreed upon, I have trouble with your claim here inasmuch as the only statement I have ever read by any resistance priest or bishop is the one by Bp. Thomas Aquinas, in which he said the new holy orders could be valid, and were in fact valid in the case of the novus ordo-ordained Fr. Jahir, and also the fact that none of the resistance priests or, especially, bishops ever made a public objection to Bp. Aquinas's claims if they had an objection to it, and in the absence of such a public rejection of his words I must conclude that they agree with them.

Another reason I have trouble believing that the resistance almost universally reject the new holy orders as always doubtful is Bp. Williamson's claim that the Holy Eucharist can be validly confected in the Novus Ordo mass, which brings us to the next point:

I never noticed this, but if Bp. Williamson believes the new mass can be valid, then why would he have doubts as to the validity of the holy oils consecrated by Bp. Huonder?
We are distinguishing here between the new rite of episcopal consecration (Fr Calderon says there is doubt regarding the form as contained in the new rite itself, and most in the Resistance agree) and the new rite of priestly ordination which Archbishop Lefebvre, and the SSPX following him, including Bishop Williamson, declared certainly valid (that is, the essential form in the new rite). The issue with the new priestly ordinations for ABL, the old SSPX, and the Resistance, is the intention (not being guaranteed by the prayers surrounding the form in the new rite), the minister (whether or not it was a doubtful new-rite bishop ordaining), and potentially the form and matter due to the spirit of innovation/improvisation/adaptation, not following official formulae etc...

Offline Yeti

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Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2023, 07:41:38 PM »
We are distinguishing here between the new rite of episcopal consecration (Fr Calderon says there is doubt regarding the form as contained in the new rite itself, and most in the Resistance agree) and the new rite of priestly ordination which Archbishop Lefebvre, and the SSPX following him, including Bishop Williamson, declared certainly valid (that is, the essential form in the new rite). The issue with the new priestly ordinations for ABL, the old SSPX, and the Resistance, is the intention (not being guaranteed by the prayers surrounding the form in the new rite), the minister (whether or not it was a doubtful new-rite bishop ordaining), and potentially the form and matter due to the spirit of innovation/improvisation/adaptation, not following official formulae etc...
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Are you sure about this? I've never heard of any distinction between Novus Ordo priests who were ordained in the Novus Ordo rite by a traditionally-consecrated bishop, and priests who were ordained by a Montini-rite-consecrated bishop. If there is any public statement from an SSPX or resistance priest or bishop explaining this distinction and the reasons for it, I'd love to see it.

 In any case, since the great majority of Novus Ordo priests today were not ordained by a bishop consecrated in the old rite, I'm not sure how far this gets us.

Certainly Fr. Jahir was ordained by a bishop "consecrated" in the new rite, no?

Re: Vigano allegedly consecrated sub conditione
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2023, 08:16:03 PM »
Certainly Fr. Jahir was ordained by a bishop "consecrated" in the new rite, no?

Bishop Thomas Aquinas refuses to reveal who the ordaining bishop was, where or when he was ordained. All the faithful know is he has a Novus Ordo ordination. That is it. You are not allowed to question it any further as far as I know. The video from their official youtube channel confirms this.