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Author Topic: Validity of NO orders  (Read 5643 times)

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Offline Soubirous

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Re: Validity of NO orders
« Reply #60 on: March 12, 2023, 03:09:40 PM »
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  • No, "et" is not "stronger".  "ut" clearly indicates that the ordination is the Sacramental effect from the invocation of the Holy Ghost.  Without it, these are two separate prayers.  "May the Holy Ghost descend upon him.  May he become a priest." (paraphrased).  Traditional Rite has it, "May the Holy Ghost descend upon him in order to make him a priest."  Those are significantly different prayers.  You could argue that this is implied in the newer version, but I submit that it's implied only because someone who's familiar with the Traditional predecessor of this prayer would READ this into it.  But if you knew nothing about the former version, you could clearly read this as invoking the Holy Ghost to PREPARE the individual for reception of the priesthood, and then asking for it to be conferred.  They are logically different constructs and therefore suffice to introduce at least a positive doubt.

    You seem to be just making this up that "et" is "stronger for validity".  Clearly the "ut" in Latin means something, a cause and effect relationship, which is simply not explicitly there in the new rite.

    I pray for A to cause B.
    I pray for A.  I pray for B.

    Logically two different things.  Ergo, positive doubt.  It's morally certain that this introduces positive doubt.

    N.B. as well that at the time the new form was introduced, those who drafted it certainly knew their Ecclesiastical Latin and thus were well aware of the implications of these changes (as they also had to have been aware with regard to revisions in the Liturgy and translations of Scripture.) In contrast, if the present occupants of the Vatican were to feign grammatical or semantic incompetence as they re-revise some consequential docuмent, that lamentable excuse might still be plausible.
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus

    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #61 on: March 12, 2023, 03:12:19 PM »
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  • N.B. as well that at the time the new form was introduced, those who drafted it certainly knew their Ecclesiastical Latin and thus were well aware of the implications of these changes (as they also had to have been aware with regard to revisions in the Liturgy and translations of Scripture.) In contrast, if the present occupants of the Vatican were to feign grammatical or semantic incompetence as they re-revise some consequential docuмent, that lamentable excuse might still be plausible.
    Let’s also not forget the HORRENDOUS (intentional) English mistranslation of “Pro Multi” as “for all”:facepalm:
    Pope St. Pius X pray for us


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #62 on: March 12, 2023, 03:33:09 PM »
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  • No, "et" is not "stronger".  "ut" clearly indicates that the ordination is the Sacramental effect from the invocation of the Holy Ghost.  Without it, these are two separate prayers.  "May the Holy Ghost descend upon him.  May he become a priest." (paraphrased).  Traditional Rite has it, "May the Holy Ghost descend upon him in order to make him a priest."  Those are significantly different prayers.  You could argue that this is implied in the newer version, but I submit that it's implied only because someone who's familiar with the Traditional predecessor of this prayer would READ this into it.  But if you knew nothing about the former version, you could clearly read this as invoking the Holy Ghost to PREPARE the individual for reception of the priesthood, and then asking for it to be conferred.  They are logically different constructs and therefore suffice to introduce at least a positive doubt.

    You seem to be just making this up that "et" is "stronger for validity".  Clearly the "ut" in Latin means something, a cause and effect relationship, which is simply not explicitly there in the new rite.

    I pray for A to cause B.
    I pray for A.  I pray for B.

    Logically two different things.  Ergo, positive doubt.  It's morally certain that this introduces positive doubt.
    I also do not understand the thinking that, after hundreds of years, the Church thought it even needed to make the form "stronger".  Why?

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #63 on: March 12, 2023, 03:39:53 PM »
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  • And your nonsense about the Church not having a "governing body" has been refuted over and over again.  

    Easily said, but never done, by you.

    I’ll be incommunicado for the rest of the day, so you have hours to try.

    But you’re just a smoke machine, and when your smoke clears, there’ll likely just be an empty stage.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #64 on: March 12, 2023, 05:53:50 PM »
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  • So Plentus, would you say that since the Church has never solemnly defined that she can only publish and impose valid sacramental rites, we must leave open the possibility that she can publish and impose invalid sacramental rites?
    Without pretending to be a theologian, what I would say is that sacramental rites are not invented by the Church. They are part of Tradition. Any attempt by the Church to publish and impose invalid sacramental rites would be so clearly contrary to Her mission, so evidently an illegitimate act/law that they ought to be resisted by Catholics. There is no teaching of the Church that a Pope could not attempt such a thing, nor that attempting such a thing could then be judged by the faithful as no longer being Pope. We ought not to make our own dogmas.


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #65 on: March 12, 2023, 06:57:05 PM »
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  • Without pretending to be a theologian, what I would say is that sacramental rites are not invented by the Church. They are part of Tradition. Any attempt by the Church to publish and impose invalid sacramental rites would be so clearly contrary to Her mission, so evidently an illegitimate act/law that they ought to be resisted by Catholics. There is no teaching of the Church that a Pope could not attempt such a thing, nor that attempting such a thing could then be judged by the faithful as no longer being Pope. We ought not to make our own dogmas.


    It’s NOT making your “own dogmas”, it’s calling using your God given brain and making logical conclusions AFTER following the teachings of the Church and consulting Her theologians. We are simply applying what the Church teaches to our given situation *without* binding someone else’s conscience.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #66 on: March 12, 2023, 11:27:37 PM »
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  • It’s NOT making your “own dogmas”, it’s calling using your God given brain and making logical conclusions AFTER following the teachings of the Church and consulting Her theologians. We are simply applying what the Church teaches to our given situation *without* binding someone else’s conscience.
    I would say Sedevacantism does not follow the teachings of the Church. It consults theologians, true, but it then takes an interpretation of a theological opinion (among many) as dogma, or as Fr Kramer puts it on the other thread "definitive magisterial teaching". And if it is such, then it certainly is binding on the Catholic conscience. That is why Sedevacantists tell me to 'return to the Church'. The reply is: when did I leave it? It doesn't seem to have a consistent or logical answer. It is wrong to depose the Pope authoritatively on the basis of a (perceived) theological opinion, whether you argue from the point of heresy, ecclesiology, infallibility, election, it's always the same. As Fr Chazal says in Contra Cekadam regarding the deposition of the heretic Pope: "The practical behaviour of Catholics does not depend in any way on an opinion. What you say as a private person is not a dogma... and before Vatican II no dogma on this intricate, controversial and until then academic question had ever been formulated. On the contrary, with the exception of the time of Gratian, the constant unanimity was that there is no unanimity on this question."

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #67 on: March 13, 2023, 12:31:12 AM »
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  • "Although it clearly follows from the circuмstances that the Pope can err at times, and command things which must not be done, that we are not simply to be obedient to him in all things, that does not show that he must be obeyed by all when his commands are good. To know in what cases he is to be obeyed and what not, it is said in the Acts of the Apostles: 'One ought to obey God rather than man'; therefore, were the Pope to command anything against Holy Scripture, or the articles of the Faith, or the truths of the Sacraments, or the commands of the natural or the divine law, he ought not to be obeyed, but in such commands, to be passed over, ignored." - Cardinal Torquemada (Turrecremata) OP (1388-1468), Summa de Ecclesia

    He clearly held that a Pope could command things against Holy Scripture, the articles of Faith, truths of the Sacraments, commands of natural or divine law. The Catholic response: to refuse obedience to such commands, not depose the Pope. 

    His is also the second opinion of the famous five opinions presented by Bellarmine on whether the heretical Pope can be deposed: "The Pope, in the very instant in which he falls into heresy, even if only interior, is outside the Church and deposed by God, for which reason he can be judged by the Church. That is, he is declared deposed by divine law". It would seem then, that he must hold that a Pope could command such things as mentioned above without necessarily being even an internal heretic. 

    From Wikipedia:

    Torquemada has been described as the most articulate papal apologist of the fifteenth century. The medieval papacy's supremacy was challenged both by Hussites (early Protestants) and by conciliarists (who held that an ecuмenical council of the Church had more authority than a pope). The Council of Basel had attempted to depose Pope Eugenius IV. Torquemada attacked both these positions in his Summa de ecclesia (1453).[9]

    Torquemada promoted reform of religious houses of his order and of monasteries. In 1456, the new Pope Callixtus III, aka Alfonso de Borja, gave him, in commendam, the position of Abbot of the monastery of Santa Scolastica in Subiaco.[10] This connection may explain his interest in the importation of printing into Rome. The cardinal wrote extensively on behalf of papal primacy. Most notably, his Summa de ecclesia defended the Church against the Hussites and the Roman pontiff against conciliarism.





    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #68 on: March 13, 2023, 07:05:39 AM »
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  • I would say Sedevacantism does not follow the teachings of the Church. It consults theologians, true, but it then takes an interpretation of a theological opinion (among many) as dogma, or as Fr Kramer puts it on the other thread "definitive magisterial teaching". And if it is such, then it certainly is binding on the Catholic conscience. That is why Sedevacantists tell me to 'return to the Church'. The reply is: when did I leave it? It doesn't seem to have a consistent or logical answer. It is wrong to depose the Pope authoritatively on the basis of a (perceived) theological opinion, whether you argue from the point of heresy, ecclesiology, infallibility, election, it's always the same. As Fr Chazal says in Contra Cekadam regarding the deposition of the heretic Pope: "The practical behaviour of Catholics does not depend in any way on an opinion. What you say as a private person is not a dogma... and before Vatican II no dogma on this intricate, controversial and until then academic question had ever been formulated. On the contrary, with the exception of the time of Gratian, the constant unanimity was that there is no unanimity on this question."
    QvD just said he (and many sedevacantists) aren't making it a dogma (ie. binding others' consciences).  They are making conclusions based on theological opinion (primarily that of St Robert Bellarmine).  Why are you continuing to push the line of thought that we're making it dogma and also suggesting that it's not really based on theological opinion (merely "perceived")?

    Also, you say there are many opinions.  Isn't your position based on another theological opinion?  Do you hold that sedevacantists are out of the Church like others on this forum have done?  And if so, wouldn't that be hypocritical of you since your position is only based on an opinion as well?

    Online Mithrandylan

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #69 on: March 13, 2023, 09:31:00 AM »
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  • Without pretending to be a theologian, what I would say is that sacramental rites are not invented by the Church. They are part of Tradition. Any attempt by the Church to publish and impose invalid sacramental rites would be so clearly contrary to Her mission, so evidently an illegitimate act/law that they ought to be resisted by Catholics. There is no teaching of the Church that a Pope could not attempt such a thing, nor that attempting such a thing could then be judged by the faithful as no longer being Pope. We ought not to make our own dogmas.
    .
    Then would you say that it is part of Tradition for the Church to have no opinion on the integrity of the sacramental rites she imposes?
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #70 on: March 13, 2023, 09:51:52 AM »
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  • There is no teaching of the Church that a Pope could not attempt such a thing ....

    I you believe this to be the case, then you've lost the Catholic faith.  If the Church cannot be trusted as a guarantor of valid Sacraments and true doctrine, then the existence of a Church and of a hierarchy is utterly meaningless.  Now Plenus here and Stubborn are empowered to be the sherrifs and enforces of Sacramental validity and sound doctrine, and not the Catholic hierarchy.  This is so preposterous that I have no words.

    This is THE essential role of the Church, to guarantee and safeguard not only true doctrine but all that pertains to the salvation and sanctification of souls (first and foremost, providing valid Sacraments).

    This is Catholicism 101 and what distinguishes Catholicism from the Prots and the Eastern Orthodox and the Old Catholics, who ALL claim (along with many R&R now) that the Church had become corrupt and departed from the Deposit of Revelation, from sound doctrine, and from true moral standards.

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm
    Quote
    Among the prerogatives conferred on His Church by Christ is the gift of indefectibility. By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will preserve unimpaired its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men. The gift of indefectibility is expressly promised to the Church by Christ, in the words in which He declares that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. It is manifest that, could the storms which the Church encounters so shake it as to alter its essential characteristics and make it other than Christ intended it to be, the gates of hell, i.e. the powers of evil, would have prevailed. It is clear, too, that could the Church suffer substantial change, it would no longer be an instrument capable of accomplishing the work for which God called it in to being. He established it that it might be to all men the school of holiness. This it would cease to be if ever it could set up a false and corrupt moral standard. He established it to proclaim His revelation to the world, and charged it to warn all men that unless they accepted that message they must perish everlastingly. Could the Church, in defining the truths of revelation err in the smallest point, such a charge would be impossible. No body could enforce under such a penalty the acceptance of what might be erroneous. By the hierarchy and the sacraments, Christ, further, made the Church the depositary of the graces of the Passion. Were it to lose either of these, it could no longer dispense to men the treasures of grace.

    Promulgating invalid Sacraments would constitute a defection of the Church in the very essence of her mission.

    And your assertion that the Church loses the hierarchy when an Antipope usurps the papacy is absurd, as this has happened many times throughout Church history, nor is the hierarchy lost during any interregnum.  But if legitimate popes could promulgate invalid Sacraments, the Church would effectively be defunct.


    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #71 on: March 13, 2023, 11:49:06 AM »
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  • I you believe this to be the case, then you've lost the Catholic faith.  If the Church cannot be trusted as a guarantor of valid Sacraments and true doctrine, then the existence of a Church and of a hierarchy is utterly meaningless.  Now Plenus here and Stubborn are empowered to be the sherrifs and enforces of Sacramental validity and sound doctrine, and not the Catholic hierarchy.  This is so preposterous that I have no words.

    This is THE essential role of the Church, to guarantee and safeguard not only true doctrine but all that pertains to the salvation and sanctification of souls (first and foremost, providing valid Sacraments).

    This is Catholicism 101 and what distinguishes Catholicism from the Prots and the Eastern Orthodox and the Old Catholics, who ALL claim (along with many R&R now) that the Church had become corrupt and departed from the Deposit of Revelation, from sound doctrine, and from true moral standards.

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm
    Promulgating invalid Sacraments would constitute a defection of the Church in the very essence of her mission.

    And your assertion that the Church loses the hierarchy when an Antipope usurps the papacy is absurd, as this has happened many times throughout Church history, nor is the hierarchy lost during any interregnum.  But if legitimate popes could promulgate invalid Sacraments, the Church would effectively be defunct.


    beautifully worded!!!! Thank you!
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #72 on: March 13, 2023, 12:15:30 PM »
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  • And your assertion that the Church loses the hierarchy when an Antipope usurps the papacy is absurd, as this has happened many times throughout Church history, nor is the hierarchy lost during any interregnum.

    Ladislaus,

    I suppose this is your cowardly way of addressing my challenge to you in this thread, i.e. by slipping the response to my challenge - such as it is - in a post to Plenus Venter, wherein you also do your usual bluster about someone lacking the Catholic faith, being a heretic, etc. You have all the trademarks of what you are here, a bully. The bully of CI, who pounds on those he believes he has the advantage over, and backs down when challenged by someone who confronts him directly. Showing your true colors with PV here as usual.


    My claim is not - is it PV's even? - that the Church has lost its hierarchy because of an antipope. And the only similarity the current crisis has to an interregnum is the lack of a pope (if one assumes, as Sedes do, that Francis is not pope). In neither case does the Church experience the loss of an essential attribute of hierarchy, the power of jurisdiction.  In neither case does the Church defect, as it does if it loses all hierarchy with the power of jurisdiction.

    I can support my position with Salaverri's Sacrae Theologia Summa, On the Church of Christ,  with the first draft of the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church prepared in large part by Cardinal Franzelin in preparation for Vatican I (he was papal theologian to the Council), and other authorities.

    But I'll tell you what: since you cited the CE, simply go read the article on the Church closely - both the sections on jurisdiction and indefectibility (the part on apostolicity would do well also). You know where it is, since you're always citing it. Pay attention to it's discussion of "hierarchy" in the article. Then go look up "hierarchy" in the CE, and it's discussion of the power of jurisdiction, as an essential component of the hierarchy, and what it entails.

    Then you can simply concede that you're wrong, and we can close this out. If not, I'll go through the trouble of quoting the material and showing you up to be the blowhard bully you are.

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #73 on: March 13, 2023, 12:46:43 PM »
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  • I you believe this to be the case, then you've lost the Catholic faith.  If the Church cannot be trusted as a guarantor of valid Sacraments and true doctrine, then the existence of a Church and of a hierarchy is utterly meaningless.  Now Plenus here and Stubborn are empowered to be the sherrifs and enforces of Sacramental validity and sound doctrine, and not the Catholic hierarchy.  This is so preposterous that I have no words.

    This is THE essential role of the Church, to guarantee and safeguard not only true doctrine but all that pertains to the salvation and sanctification of souls (first and foremost, providing valid Sacraments).

    This is Catholicism 101 and what distinguishes Catholicism from the Prots and the Eastern Orthodox and the Old Catholics, who ALL claim (along with many R&R now) that the Church had become corrupt and departed from the Deposit of Revelation, from sound doctrine, and from true moral standards.

    https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm



    Quote
    Quote

    Among the prerogatives conferred on His Church by Christ is the gift of indefectibility. By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will preserve unimpaired its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men. The gift of indefectibility is expressly promised to the Church by Christ, in the words in which He declares that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. It is manifest that, could the storms which the Church encounters so shake it as to alter its essential characteristics and make it other than Christ intended it to be, the gates of hell, i.e. the powers of evil, would have prevailed. It is clear, too, that could the Church suffer substantial change, it would no longer be an instrument capable of accomplishing the work for which God called it in to being. He established it that it might be to all men the school of holiness. This it would cease to be if ever it could set up a false and corrupt moral standard. He established it to proclaim His revelation to the world, and charged it to warn all men that unless they accepted that message they must perish everlastingly. Could the Church, in defining the truths of revelation err in the smallest point, such a charge would be impossible. No body could enforce under such a penalty the acceptance of what might be erroneous. By the hierarchy and the sacraments, Christ, further, made the Church the depositary of the graces of the Passion. Were it to lose either of these, it could no longer dispense to men the treasures of grace.Promulgating invalid Sacraments would constitute a defection of the Church in the very essence of her mission.


    And your assertion that the Church loses the hierarchy when an Antipope usurps the papacy is absurd, as this has happened many times throughout Church history, nor is the hierarchy lost during any interregnum.  But if legitimate popes could promulgate invalid Sacraments, the Church would effectively be defunct.

    Ladislaus,

    What an idiot! There it is; you cited it yourself. The defection of the Church if it loses "either" the hierarchy or the sacraments. You do know what "either" means, right? And don't quibble absurdly by saying, "it only says the loss of the sacraments would be a defection." The context is clear: if the Church were to lose "either," it would not be the "dispense(r) to men (of) the treasures of grace," which is the whole purpose of valid sacraments. 

    So there it is - now just go to the entry on "hierarchy" in the CE. 

    And you actually cite this as support for your position, while being blind to how it supports my view: the loss of either the sacraments (the power of sanctifying), or the teaching of the true Gospel (the power of teaching), or the jurisdiction (the power of the teachers having authority to rule and govern), would constitute a defection of the Church. 

    Moron.

    DR

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #74 on: March 13, 2023, 02:05:16 PM »
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  • I have been rereading this thread and one thought stands out. Concerning Fr. Cekada's commentary on the New Rite, the employ of the words "spiritus principalis," is vague in and of itself.  Lucifer is a spiritus principalis if you consider what St. Thomas said, that he was a prince of the Dominions.  Every angel is a 'spiritus.'  We know that most of the changes in the Church were masonically  orchestrated.  The argument can be made that spiritus principalis may or may not signify God. 
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