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Author Topic: Validity of NO orders  (Read 6626 times)

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Offline DigitalLogos

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Re: Validity of NO orders
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2023, 07:29:18 AM »
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  • OK, DL.  I'll accept that I'm wrong...for now. 
    For now?

    Quote
    I think the video only adds to the confusion and doubts...and the condescending, anti-sedevacantist attitude.  At this point in the game, considering that these orders could be valid (which is what your posting this video does) is problematic at best and dangerous at worst.

    Perhaps, even if they are, it still doesn't change the position of either R&Rs or sedes as the NO basically become like the EO schismatics for other issues regarding the Faith.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #31 on: March 10, 2023, 09:06:57 AM »
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  • DL, I'll give you my two cents on the issue.

    Fr. Cekada famously wrote a paper, and then a few followups, where he argued that the New Rite of Episcopal Consecration (NREC) was invalid and null because it failed to univocally express that the recipient of the sacrament was receiving the power of orders and the grace of the Holy Ghost. According to Pius XII's Sacramentum Ordinis, the essential formula of episcopal consecration must univocally express that the recipient is receiving the power of order and the grace of the Holy Ghost.  Fr. Pierre Marie O.P. wrote a politically motivated rebuttal shortly thereafter (politically motivated in my opinion at least, since at this time Ratzinger, consecrated according to the NREC, had become elected and the SSPX had eyes on reconciliation with Rome). Although politically motivated, he offers what is probably the best defense of the NREC to date.

    You can and should read the paper for yourself, and see if you find it convincing. If you've just doubted N.O. holy orders because "that's what trads do," give Fr. Cekada's arguments, and also Fr. Pierre Marie's rebuttal, a fair shake. I won't summarize everything for you, I'll just focus on the main point. The main point is that the NREC essential form does not univocally express the episcopal candidate's reception of the power of order and jurisdiction. And as such, Fr. argues it is simply invalid. Here is the essential form in question:
    .

    Quote
    “So now pour out upon this chosen one that power which is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to the holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name.”
    .
    In fact, Fr. Cekada argues that it is not even clear what at all is being expressed in this essential form, because the "governing spirit" (spiritus principalis in Latin) is perfectly ambiguous in both Latin and English.  But even if we could be sure what the "governing spirit" is, the problem is that it is plainly only one thing, while Pius XII defined two things (the power of order and jurisdiction) must be expressed in the essential form. So disambiguating the "governing spirit"-- say, by looking at the surrounding material in the preface, as many have done-- does not solve the problem.
    .
    Moreover, remember that essential forms are, well, essential. You could get everything about the surrounding ceremonies of baptism right but if you don't actually pour water on the head of the candidate and say "I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" you don't baptize. Same with every sacrament. Pointing to other parts of the ceremony that apparently vindicate the meaning of the form is a vain exercise if the form is substantially deficient, as I think the form of the NREC is.
    .
    Long story short, I find Fr. Cekada's case compelling enough to cast legitimate, positive doubt on the integrity of the NREC. I have read the various follow-up rebuttals, and have not found them compelling enough to redeem that doubt.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #32 on: March 10, 2023, 09:17:27 AM »
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  • DL, I'll give you my two cents on the issue.

    Fr. Cekada famously wrote a paper, and then a few followups, where he argued that the New Rite of Episcopal Consecration (NREC) was invalid and null because it failed to univocally express that the recipient of the sacrament was receiving the power of orders and the grace of the Holy Ghost. According to Pius XII's Sacramentum Ordinis, the essential formula of episcopal consecration must univocally express that the recipient is receiving the power of order and the grace of the Holy Ghost.  Fr. Pierre Marie O.P. wrote a politically motivated rebuttal shortly thereafter (politically motivated in my opinion at least, since at this time Ratzinger, consecrated according to the NREC, had become elected and the SSPX had eyes on reconciliation with Rome). Although politically motivated, he offers what is probably the best defense of the NREC to date.

    You can and should read the paper for yourself, and see if you find it convincing. If you've just doubted N.O. holy orders because "that's what trads do," give Fr. Cekada's arguments, and also Fr. Pierre Marie's rebuttal, a fair shake. I won't summarize everything for you, I'll just focus on the main point. The main point is that the NREC essential form does not univocally express the episcopal candidate's reception of the power of order and jurisdiction. And as such, Fr. argues it is simply invalid. Here is the essential form in question:
    .
    .
    In fact, Fr. Cekada argues that it is not even clear what at all is being expressed in this essential form, because the "governing spirit" (spiritus principalis in Latin) is perfectly ambiguous in both Latin and English.  But even if we could be sure what the "governing spirit" is, the problem is that it is plainly only one thing, while Pius XII defined two things (the power of order and jurisdiction) must be expressed in the essential form. So disambiguating the "governing spirit"-- say, by looking at the surrounding material in the preface, as many have done-- does not solve the problem.
    .
    Moreover, remember that essential forms are, well, essential. You could get everything about the surrounding ceremonies of baptism right but if you don't actually pour water on the head of the candidate and say "I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" you don't baptize. Same with every sacrament. Pointing to other parts of the ceremony that apparently vindicate the meaning of the form is a vain exercise if the form is substantially deficient, as I think the form of the NREC is.
    .
    Long story short, I find Fr. Cekada's case compelling enough to cast legitimate, positive doubt on the integrity of the NREC. I have read the various follow-up rebuttals, and have not found them compelling enough to redeem that doubt.
    I've read his work, that's why I hold the position of them being doubtful. But I also hold some of what the late Rev. Father says with a "grain of salt" after seeing the rotten fruits of his "grain of incense" dogma.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #33 on: March 10, 2023, 09:41:52 AM »
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  • Fair enough. That's why I say look at the actual arguments, rather than the credibility of the author. I agree that the Grain of Incense work is mostly rhetorical, not argumentative.  Regardless of its "fruits," it's just not a good argument.

    I think the main weakness in Fr. Cekada's argument against the NREC is in his conclusion that the NREC is certainly invalid. It is arguable that he proves its certain invalidity, but I think it is certain that he proves it doubtful. But in claiming to have proven it certainly invalid, he opens his position up to arguments that merely make the NREC look better (and then rhetorical strategies are used to close the gap between the NREC being "not as bad" as Father says, and it being actually and certainly valid).  I think if he were content proving that its validity is doubtful, it would have been more difficult for other authors to follow up with any rebuttal at all. You know, I am sure, that for purposes of moral behavior there is no difference between a doubtful and an invalid sacrament. Both are to be avoided, and if received, both are to be re-done (either conditionally or absolutely).

    I recommend reading not just what Fr. Cekada has to say, but what his opponents have to say. And then what he has to say in return, and so on. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #34 on: March 10, 2023, 09:46:18 AM »
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  • I forgot to say--

    Although it has been customary for non-sede trads to hold the NREC in doubt, I think the question of its validity is very difficult to separate from the question of Paul VI's papacy. If Paul VI's papacy was legitimate, a perfectly valid argument would just be to appeal to the disciplinary infallibility of the Church and conclude that the NREC is valid simply by virtue of being approved and imposed by the Pope on a universal class of people.  

    If Paul VI wasn't the Pope of the Catholic Church, no such assurances exist. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #35 on: March 10, 2023, 10:05:15 AM »
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  • I forgot to say--

    Although it has been customary for non-sede trads to hold the NREC in doubt, I think the question of its validity is very difficult to separate from the question of Paul VI's papacy. If Paul VI's papacy was legitimate, a perfectly valid argument would just be to appeal to the disciplinary infallibility of the Church and conclude that the NREC is valid simply by virtue of being approved and imposed by the Pope on a universal class of people. 

    If Paul VI wasn't the Pope of the Catholic Church, no such assurances exist.
    Yes, I agree with this and it is a much clearer way of saying what I was trying to. If he isn't the Pope, then the issues surrounding the NO still stand, valid priests or no

    Fair enough. That's why I say look at the actual arguments, rather than the credibility of the author. I agree that the Grain of Incense work is mostly rhetorical, not argumentative.  Regardless of its "fruits," it's just not a good argument.

    I think the main weakness in Fr. Cekada's argument against the NREC is in his conclusion that the NREC is certainly invalid. It is arguable that he proves its certain invalidity, but I think it is certain that he proves it doubtful. But in claiming to have proven it certainly invalid, he opens his position up to arguments that merely make the NREC look better (and then rhetorical strategies are used to close the gap between the NREC being "not as bad" as Father says, and it being actually and certainly valid).  I think if he were content proving that its validity is doubtful, it would have been more difficult for other authors to follow up with any rebuttal at all. You know, I am sure, that for purposes of moral behavior there is no difference between a doubtful and an invalid sacrament. Both are to be avoided, and if received, both are to be re-done (either conditionally or absolutely).

    I recommend reading not just what Fr. Cekada has to say, but what his opponents have to say. And then what he has to say in return, and so on.
    Yes, exactly. That's why I say "doubtful" because absolute certainty only comes when the Church Herself pronounces it. It may be theologically certain, though.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #36 on: March 10, 2023, 10:15:21 AM »
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  • I did not watch the video you linked to. Was there anything in it new to the argument? Anything specific about it that you find a compelling counter-argument to a doubtful position on the NREC?
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #37 on: March 10, 2023, 10:53:43 AM »
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  • I think the main weakness in Fr. Cekada's argument against the NREC is in his conclusion that the NREC is certainly invalid. It is arguable that he proves its certain invalidity, but I think it is certain that he proves it doubtful. But in claiming to have proven it certainly invalid, he opens his position up to arguments that merely make the NREC look better (and then rhetorical strategies are used to close the gap between the NREC being "not as bad" as Father says, and it being actually and certainly valid).  I think if he were content proving that its validity is doubtful, it would have been more difficult for other authors to follow up with any rebuttal at all. You know, I am sure, that for purposes of moral behavior there is no difference between a doubtful and an invalid sacrament. Both are to be avoided, and if received, both are to be re-done (either conditionally or absolutely).

    I recommend reading not just what Fr. Cekada has to say, but what his opponents have to say. And then what he has to say in return, and so on.
    You are probably right in that saying it is certainly doubtful would have been the safer route.  However, it's pretty clear based on the essential form that it goes beyond positive doubt (at least with the NREC).


    Offline songbird

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #38 on: March 10, 2023, 01:51:01 PM »
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  • www.traditio.com Holy orders changed in 1968, validity is no longer after this time.  Where does the "authority" come from for Holy Orders?  Rome, does the pope still have authority or did he lose this authority for his fruits tell us heresy.  Pope, did he have Holy  orders?  No, they were of the new rite. Does not look good. Question, how does SSPX have authority for making priest?  Rome? Does not look good.

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #39 on: March 10, 2023, 08:53:40 PM »
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  • Snickering :trollface:

    "Well if they were invalid the whole hierarchy would be invalid and we know that can't happen..hehehehehe.  Because that would mean the gates of Hell have prevailed..hehehehehe." :trollface::trollface:

    Sure, a valid pope, the successor of Peter, 

    the actual Vicar of Christ,

    can set up a demon in the Vatican for public worship

    but that doesn't mean the gates of Hell have prevailed.  riiiight.

    I think it's called the GREAT apostasy for a reason, as in LARGE, VAST, GIGANTIC.

    The Church can survive without a pope but the Church cannot survive without the Catholic Faith.

    I can't determine a valid ordination rite from an invalid one

    but I do know the First Commandment.



    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #40 on: March 10, 2023, 10:06:53 PM »
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  • I forgot to say--

    Although it has been customary for non-sede trads to hold the NREC in doubt, I think the question of its validity is very difficult to separate from the question of Paul VI's papacy. If Paul VI's papacy was legitimate, a perfectly valid argument would just be to appeal to the disciplinary infallibility of the Church and conclude that the NREC is valid simply by virtue of being approved and imposed by the Pope on a universal class of people. 

    If Paul VI wasn't the Pope of the Catholic Church, no such assurances exist.
    I think that argument is flawed and very easily countered, Mithrandylan, by the fact that a legitimate Pope is not free to impose illegitimate laws. He is not a law unto himself, he is the Vicar Of Christ. He has no power to revolutionise the Sacraments. This is no organic development along the lines described by St Vincent of Lerins. As The First Vatican Council taught in the Constitution Pastor Aeternus "The Holy Ghost was promised to the successors of Peter, not, that by his revelation, they might make known new doctrine, but that by his assistance they might guard... the deposit of faith". That is why, all these years, most Traditionalists of the R&R persuasion, including ABL and his Society, have held doubts about the rite, without denying the legitimacy of the Pope.


    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #41 on: March 10, 2023, 10:18:02 PM »
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  • I think that argument is flawed and very easily countered, Mithrandylan, by the fact that a legitimate Pope is not free to impose illegitimate laws. He is not a law unto himself, he is the Vicar Of Christ. He has no power to revolutionise the Sacraments. This is no organic development along the lines described by St Vincent of Lerins. As The First Vatican Council taught in the Constitution Pastor Aeternus "The Holy Ghost was promised to the successors of Peter, not, that by his revelation, they might make known new doctrine, but that by his assistance they might guard... the deposit of faith". That is why, all these years, most Traditionalists of the R&R persuasion, including ABL and his Society, have held doubts about the rite, without denying the legitimacy of the Pope.

    That is the same as the false notion that a pope cannot ban the Latin Mass.

    This was well disputed here:


    https://novusordowatch.org/2023/03/can-francis-ban-latin-mass-marshall-gaspers-2/

    Throughout their presentation, both Marshall and Gaspers give the impression that they do not really believe that the Papacy is a divine institution, for

    they think it must be kept in check, in the last analysis, by the faithful themselves so it doesn’t go off the rails

    — an absurd idea, considering what traditional Catholic doctrine says about the Papacy as the unshakeable bulwark of Catholic truth.



    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #42 on: March 11, 2023, 12:18:16 AM »
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  • I think that argument is flawed and very easily countered, Mithrandylan, by the fact that a legitimate Pope is not free to impose illegitimate laws. He is not a law unto himself, he is the Vicar Of Christ. He has no power to revolutionise the Sacraments. This is no organic development along the lines described by St Vincent of Lerins. As The First Vatican Council taught in the Constitution Pastor Aeternus "The Holy Ghost was promised to the successors of Peter, not, that by his revelation, they might make known new doctrine, but that by his assistance they might guard... the deposit of faith". That is why, all these years, most Traditionalists of the R&R persuasion, including ABL and his Society, have held doubts about the rite, without denying the legitimacy of the Pope.

    This "free to" or "not free" to is completely missing the mark and does nothing to address the core disagreement.  What's under dispute is whether the Holy Spirit protects a Pope from teaching grave and substantial error to the Universal Church and from promulgating a Rite of Mass that's harmfult to souls and displeasing to God.  Whether or not he has the "right" to do so is absolutely irrelevant.

    And that quote from Pastor Aeternus is a complete butchery of the intent of the passage, which is doing nothing more than distinguishing the role of the Magisterium from the Deposit of Revelation ... and has nothing to do with what you're claiming it means.  It does not mean, "He has no right to teach error, and therefore we are free to reject the Magisterium we have decided to be in error."  It simply means that the teachings of the Magisterium are not an extension of Divine Revelation but is a safeguarding, clarification, and explanation of the Deposit of Revelation that was received once and ceased with the death of the last apostle.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #43 on: March 11, 2023, 12:28:57 AM »
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  • You are probably right in that saying it is certainly doubtful would have been the safer route.  However, it's pretty clear based on the essential form that it goes beyond positive doubt (at least with the NREC).

    I agree that NREC is almost certainly invalid.  So, even if you hold out some hope that the butchery of priestly ordination is valid, the number of priests ordained by bishops who had been consecrated before NREC is rapidly dwindling as time goes on.

    To me, the fact that the ordination only made what appears to be a "trivial" change, in so far as it removes a single two-letter word in Latin, and since I believe that enemy infiltrators are behind these destructive changes, this only increases my suspicion that this was done on purpose with the intent to invalidate.  WHY BOTHER with this little word at all?  It's not as though its omission somehow "modernizes" the rite and brings some "fresh perspective" to it.  Pius XII when writing about the essential forms of these rites describes the essence of the form as invoking the Holy Spirit with a specific effect in mind, i.e. that they must invoke the Holy Spirit and call out the effect of that invocation, i.e. for the Holy Spirit to do [whatever].

    Old Rite.  Renew in them the spirit of holiness (the Holy Spirit) SO THAT (the "ut") they might become priests.  Invoking the Holy Spirit to be sent in order to make the men priests.

    New Rite.  Renew in them the spirit of holiness.  May they become priests.  This is not requesting that the Holy Spirit come down on them to make them priests.  It's two separate requests.  May the Holy Spirit come down on them.  May they become priests (addressed generally to God as a prayer).  There's no linkage between the action of the Holy Spirit being that which has the effect of making them priests.  Holy Spirit is involved in every Sacrament, and in the general state of a soul being in a state of sanctifying grace.

    "May they receive the Holy Spirit so that the Holy Spirit might make them priests."

    vs.

    "May they receive the Holy Spirit.  May they become priests (through some unspecified mechanism)."

    This severs the concept that Pius XII called out as essential to the validity, the invocation of the Holy Spirit to a specified effect.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Validity of NO orders
    « Reply #44 on: March 11, 2023, 02:54:10 AM »
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  • This "free to" or "not free" to is completely missing the mark and does nothing to address the core disagreement.  What's under dispute is whether the Holy Spirit protects a Pope from teaching grave and substantial error to the Universal Church and from promulgating a Rite of Mass that's harmfult to souls and displeasing to God.  Whether or not he has the "right" to do so is absolutely irrelevant.

    And that quote from Pastor Aeternus is a complete butchery of the intent of the passage, which is doing nothing more than distinguishing the role of the Magisterium from the Deposit of Revelation ... and has nothing to do with what you're claiming it means.  It does not mean, "He has no right to teach error, and therefore we are free to reject the Magisterium we have decided to be in error."  It simply means that the teachings of the Magisterium are not an extension of Divine Revelation but is a safeguarding, clarification, and explanation of the Deposit of Revelation that was received once and ceased with the death of the last apostle.
    Well Ladislaus, I think you are missing the mark and the understanding of the Papacy, and I think you would do well to listen to the great Churchman that God raised up to lead us in this crisis in Archbishop Lefebvre. I prefer his explanation to yours, it sounds more Catholic to me, it makes more sense. The First Vatican Council defined very clearly when the Holy Ghost protects a Pope from "teaching grave and substantial error to the Universal Church", but you want to add to the doctrine, you want to enhance the dogma.