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Author Topic: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders  (Read 829 times)

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Offline SimpleMan

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Re: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders
« Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 10:17:10 AM »
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  • Yes. His wife's name is Hilyna, I think that's how you spell it.
    Halyna, the Ukrainian form of the Polish name Galina.  Ukrainian (and Slovakian) often uses an H where a Polish-speaker would expect to see a G (pirohi, Olha, et cetera).

    I don't know Father Charron, but when I saw "Hilyna", I thought that didn't look quite right, so I looked it up.

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders
    « Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 10:18:25 AM »
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  • Indeed, and I've come to tune out all this noise.  Among the Trad clergy, there are perhaps one or two dogmatic issues that might warrant some kind of principled division, and even those are very much mitigated by the confusion of these days ... but the other conclusions are always several logical steps removed from Catholic doctrine, and yet they assume that because one of their operating premises is de fide their conclusion is also, since their logic is undoubtedly impeccable.  That's simply not true.  During this day and age, if a priest PROFESSES the Catholic faith and does not adhere to some OBVIOUS manifest heresy that all agree is heresy ... I hold that it's licit for the faithful to assist at their Masses and receive the Sacraments.  If those priests are in error, it's between them and God.  NEVER has the Church required the faithful to be theologians in order to evaluate the validity of their theological arguments and their various positions.

    I said principled divisions, because I can see some things requiring a practical division, e.g. if one group admits NO priests who are not conditionally consecrated or who they consider to otherwise have doubtful Orders, or where one group offers pre-1955 Holy Week, the other post- ... where just practically it can't work.  But they cross the line when they impose these opinions or positions on the faithful by threat of withholding Sacraments.  If, for instance, I felt that +Thuc line Holy Orders were doubtful, I might opine along those lines and perhaps warn the faithful about it ... but if they disagree you withhold the Sacraments from them?  Seriously?  On whose authority are you attempting to bind consciences under pain of effective excommunication (refusal of Sacraments, which is basically an excommunication).

    Agreed! I only wish I would have known to tune out the noise before I fell prey to all of this in the beginning of my conversion. I've been mislead so many times it's not funny. 


    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders
    « Reply #32 on: Yesterday at 10:19:25 AM »
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  • Halyna, the Ukrainian form of the Polish name Galina.  Ukrainian (and Slovakian) often uses an H where a Polish-speaker would expect to see a G (pirohi, Olha, et cetera).

    I don't know Father Charron, but when I saw "Hilyna", I thought that didn't look quite right, so I looked it up.

    Wonderful! I was wondering if it was a version of Helena. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders
    « Reply #33 on: Yesterday at 10:21:41 AM »
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  • I don't know either! But thanks for the info!

    Right.  You don't know.  I don't know.  Nobody really knows since we have a vacuum of authority to decide such questions that would normally be sent to the Holy Office.  I doubt that Tucho's going to have a Catholic answer, and of course he assumes that the NOM is no sacrilege.

    Given this "I don't know" situations, any reasonable need for the Sacraments justifies assisting at such Masses.  If they did have Mass on a NO altar that's desecrated, they in fact do so not really THINKING it's desecrated, so there's no intention to desecrate, and since it's really a matter of my opinion.  Given how I read Canon Law, an Ordinary could for legitimate reason dispense from some of these canonical requirements, so given the state of emergency and the confusion ... I'd say it's licit to assist even if you're not sure, along the lines of St. Alphonsus' probabilism (or semi-probabilism) approach the moral theology, where you don't have to be completely paralyzed due to uncertainty.

    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders
    « Reply #34 on: Yesterday at 10:30:21 AM »
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  • Well, it's technically illicit to offer Mass in hotel rooms, town halls, etc. without explicit permission of an Ordinary as well, and the requirement to have an altar stone is in that same category, so I don't believe it would remedy the situation per se.  I somehow feel that the state of emergency in the Church permitting use of hotel conference rooms, etc. ... has probably been stretched a little too far where it's considered almost an ordinary modus operandi rather than being an irregularity that should be an exception only permitted rarely by the Ordinary, perhaps almost approximating the NO attitude of having "Masses" anywhere, like the one guy in Italy who said Mass waist-deep in water on a flotation device on a beach with everyone mostly undressed.  Not quite there, but it appears to have moved in that direction just a little bit.
    I figured the laws about the location are more disciplinary, while the requirement for a consecrated altar is more of a necessity to preserve the sanctity of the Sacrifice of the Mass itself. Those probably aren't the most proper terms, but you get what I'm saying :laugh1: 
    In my opinion the  garage or hotel masses display the reality of the crisis in the Church much more clearly than certain trad groups like the sspx building massive chapels and calling them churches, with parishes, calling priests pastors. I think that can cause the laity to become lukewarm, to assume that things are pretty normal and that we just have some not-great popes..rather than that we are living through the great apostasy 
    If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you [John 15:108


    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders
    « Reply #35 on: Yesterday at 10:34:19 AM »
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  • Right.  You don't know.  I don't know.  Nobody really knows since we have a vacuum of authority to decide such questions that would normally be sent to the Holy Office.  I doubt that Tucho's going to have a Catholic answer, and of course he assumes that the NOM is no sacrilege.

    Given this "I don't know" situations, any reasonable need for the Sacraments justifies assisting at such Masses.  If they did have Mass on a NO altar that's desecrated, they in fact do so not really THINKING it's desecrated, so there's no intention to desecrate, and since it's really a matter of my opinion.  Given how I read Canon Law, an Ordinary could for legitimate reason dispense from some of these canonical requirements, so given the state of emergency and the confusion ... I'd say it's licit to assist even if you're not sure, along the lines of St. Alphonsus' probabilism (or semi-probabilism) approach the moral theology, where you don't have to be completely paralyzed due to uncertainty.
    Good points that I did not consider. Do you think this applies to SSPX priests saying mass in NO churches as well?
    If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you [John 15:108

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders
    « Reply #36 on: Yesterday at 11:05:54 AM »
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  • I figured the laws about the location are more disciplinary, while the requirement for a consecrated altar is more of a necessity to preserve the sanctity of the Sacrifice of the Mass itself. Those probably aren't the most proper terms, but you get what I'm saying :laugh1:
    In my opinion the  garage or hotel masses display the reality of the crisis in the Church much more clearly than certain trad groups like the sspx building massive chapels and calling them churches, with parishes, calling priests pastors. I think that can cause the laity to become lukewarm, to assume that things are pretty normal and that we just have some not-great popes..rather than that we are living through the great apostasy

    So, both do pertain to the "sanctity" and dignity of the Holy Sacrifice.  Generally speaking, the use of an altar stone was seen as somehow mitigating the surrounding environment, but it did not completely offset it, or you could then put an altar stone anywhere, including in the middle of a brothel, right?  In fact, you'd probably be committing a second sin by profaning the altar stone by putting it in such a setting.  But the principle behind both considerations is the same, that sanctity or dignity of the Mass.  And you couldn't just say Mass anywhere in normal times as if the Altar Stone took care of the problem entirely, but required the Ordinary's permission to do so.  In other words, you required the permission of the Ordinary even to use an Altar Stone in a certain unbecoming setting ... for various pastoral reasons.  But the same dispensation could be granted even to not having an Altar Stone, again, for the good of souls, such as where you might secretly have Mass in some cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρ on a table with obviously no altar stone available.  In other words, the rule is that it should be in a sacred space consecrated for the Mass ... but if there's some urgent pastoral necessity, elsewhere, and then if it's elsewhere then the priest should use an altar stone, if possible, but that too can be dispensed with for some urgent pastoral necessity.  It's not like one is an absolute requirement the other not.  Both are already exceptions to the rule.

    Maybe a good analogy is this.  Let's say a priest needs to offer Mass (for souls) but doesn't have vestments.  Well, the rule might then be ... if the priest has to say Mass without vestments, he should take care to wear a suit (vs. some slovenly outfit like jeans and T-shirt) ... but then if that's not possible, for urgent need, he can offer Mass with jeans and T-shirt (it's all he has, it's in time of persecution, souls need the Mass and Sacraments, etc.).  That's the analogy here.

    In terms of "hotel rooms", there's a distinction between a rented hall, for instance, and a priest's own hotel room, IMO, where the the former addresses a pastoral need, whereas the latter might be one of convenience.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders
    « Reply #37 on: Yesterday at 11:17:14 AM »
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  • Good points that I did not consider. Do you think this applies to SSPX priests saying mass in NO churches as well?

    I think so.  There's just so much confusion.  It's not like the SSPX priest is going into the NO Church thinking he's profaning the Mass, as if he were, say, entering a ѕуηαgσgυє or mosque.  Some churches were even consecrated by valid bishops before Vatican II, but even the ones that weren't they still professed Cathoicism (vs. those dedicated to professed non-Catholic religions).  So, another thing to consider is that if the church is suitable for a Tridentine Mass, it likely still has the old high altar there, which likely was not use for the NOM (vs. the Luther table in front of it) ... distancing the NO altar a bit from the true one.  In any case, while I personally consider the NOM objectively sacrilegous, not everyone shares that view, thinking it's more defective, deficient, lacking, ambiguous, or mostly bad because of the various implementations of it.  While I don't share that view, I also realize that it's only my own opinion.  I would not go to such a Mass if I had any viable alternaties, but if it's all I had to fulfill my Sunday obligation and receive Holy Communion, I would go ... due to the objective uncertainty.  I liken it to a question of moral theology where priests might have different opinions.  One priest might say something is OK, whereas another might say it's not.  So what do you do as a member of the lay faithful?  Well, moralists generally hold that you'd be permitted to go with either opinion provided that the Church hasn't rule on the dispute against one of the priests's opinons.

    It's generally my opinion that there would have to be a very high degree of certainty about some matter that all Traditional Catholics agree upon before the lay faithful would be required in conscience to refrain from assisting at Holy Mass.


    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders
    « Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 01:39:42 PM »
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  • I think so.  There's just so much confusion.  It's not like the SSPX priest is going into the NO Church thinking he's profaning the Mass, as if he were, say, entering a ѕуηαgσgυє or mosque.  Some churches were even consecrated by valid bishops before Vatican II, but even the ones that weren't they still professed Cathoicism (vs. those dedicated to professed non-Catholic religions).  So, another thing to consider is that if the church is suitable for a Tridentine Mass, it likely still has the old high altar there, which likely was not use for the NOM (vs. the Luther table in front of it) ... distancing the NO altar a bit from the true one.  In any case, while I personally consider the NOM objectively sacrilegous, not everyone shares that view, thinking it's more defective, deficient, lacking, ambiguous, or mostly bad because of the various implementations of it.  While I don't share that view, I also realize that it's only my own opinion.  I would not go to such a Mass if I had any viable alternaties, but if it's all I had to fulfill my Sunday obligation and receive Holy Communion, I would go ... due to the objective uncertainty.  I liken it to a question of moral theology where priests might have different opinions.  One priest might say something is OK, whereas another might say it's not.  So what do you do as a member of the lay faithful?  Well, moralists generally hold that you'd be permitted to go with either opinion provided that the Church hasn't rule on the dispute against one of the priests's opinons.

    It's generally my opinion that there would have to be a very high degree of certainty about some matter that all Traditional Catholics agree upon before the lay faithful would be required in conscience to refrain from assisting at Holy Mass.
    Thanks for the explanations, on both counts. That makes a lot of sense. From a different angle, another reason the SSPX using NO churches bothers me is that it gives the NO bishops a semblance of holding lawful authority in the Catholic Church, and how they are charitable, merciful in deigning to allow a "canonically irregular" group to celebrate the true Mass in their churches. Now obviously a Catholic bishop does have the right to do that, and I guess the sspx has always held those bishops to still have authority..but it just another one of those things that I think can cause trad faithful to become complacent, and believe the situation isn't as bad as it really is 
    If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you [John 15:108

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders
    « Reply #39 on: Yesterday at 01:48:44 PM »
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  • Thanks for the explanations, on both counts. That makes a lot of sense. From a different angle, another reason the SSPX using NO churches bothers me is that it gives the NO bishops a semblance of holding lawful authority in the Catholic Church, and how they are charitable, merciful in deigning to allow a "canonically irregular" group to celebrate the true Mass in their churches. Now obviously a Catholic bishop does have the right to do that, and I guess the sspx has always held those bishops to still have authority..but it just another one of those things that I think can cause trad faithful to become complacent, and believe the situation isn't as bad as it really is
    I may have missed it, but have you mentioned the issue of "consecrated" hosts?  Is there a possibility that the SSPX distributes hosts consecrated by the NO?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders
    « Reply #40 on: Yesterday at 08:08:50 PM »
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  • I may have missed it, but have you mentioned the issue of "consecrated" hosts?  Is there a possibility that the SSPX distributes hosts consecrated by the NO?

    I've never heard a case of that ... though I have heard of hosts consecrated by priests who had not been conditionally ordained.  So it's quite possible in SSPX to show up at a chapel and find an SSPX-ordained priest there for Mass, but then go to Holy Communion without realizing that the Blessed Sacrament in the coborium within the tabernacle from which he distributes Holy Communion was in fact consecrated the previous week by a priest who had come in that weekend but had not been conditionally ordained after coming over from NO.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders
    « Reply #41 on: Yesterday at 08:11:29 PM »
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  • Thanks for the explanations, on both counts. That makes a lot of sense. From a different angle, another reason the SSPX using NO churches bothers me is that it gives the NO bishops a semblance of holding lawful authority in the Catholic Church, and how they are charitable, merciful in deigning to allow a "canonically irregular" group to celebrate the true Mass in their churches. Now obviously a Catholic bishop does have the right to do that, and I guess the sspx has always held those bishops to still have authority..but it just another one of those things that I think can cause trad faithful to become complacent, and believe the situation isn't as bad as it really is

    Well, that's what they believe, though, that the NO bishops do have authority.  So, for instance, St. Vincent Ferrer thought that one of the Antipopes was the actual pope and (presumably) put his name into the Canon and then the name of the bishops who was under that false pope, etc.  He did so because he thought they had authority, but was wrong.  That too I put in the same category, that of material error but with the correct formal intention. 

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders
    « Reply #42 on: Yesterday at 08:56:34 PM »
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  • But the same dispensation could be granted even to not having an Altar Stone, again, for the good of souls, such as where you might secretly have Mass in some cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρ on a table with obviously no altar stone available.  In other words, the rule is that it should be in a sacred space consecrated for the Mass ... but if there's some urgent pastoral necessity, elsewhere, and then if it's elsewhere then the priest should use an altar stone, if possible, but that too can be dispensed with for some urgent pastoral necessity.  It's not like one is an absolute requirement the other not.  Both are already exceptions to the rule.

    I have heard of priests (St Maximilian Kolbe, and I want to say, Orthodox priests as well) offering Mass in prison camps using their hand as an "altar".

    Incidentally, are there any traditionalist Catholics who deny that Kolbe's martyrdom story, and the circuмstances surrounding it (being held at Auschwitz), happened as the mainstream accounts say it did?

    Offline HeidtXtreme

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    Re: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders
    « Reply #43 on: Yesterday at 09:07:25 PM »
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  • Incidentally, are there any traditionalist Catholics who deny that Kolbe's martyrdom story, and the circuмstances surrounding it (being held at Auschwitz), happened as the mainstream accounts say it did?
    I am honestly unsure what to think about Maximillian Kolbe.

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders
    « Reply #44 on: Yesterday at 09:56:59 PM »
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  • I've never heard a case of that ... though I have heard of hosts consecrated by priests who had not been conditionally ordained.  So it's quite possible in SSPX to show up at a chapel and find an SSPX-ordained priest there for Mass, but then go to Holy Communion without realizing that the Blessed Sacrament in the coborium within the tabernacle from which he distributes Holy Communion was in fact consecrated the previous week by a priest who had come in that weekend but had not been conditionally ordained after coming over from NO.

    It happens all the time. There is a SSPX chapel that I have visited in the past where five priests live, and one of them is a non conditionally ordained Novus Ordo priest. There are four masses on Sunday. Result: no communion for me, since it is impossible to know which are the hosts that he (or did not) consecrate. I don't visit this place anymore, sadly.