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Author Topic: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders  (Read 5908 times)

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Re: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2025, 09:51:12 AM »
The problem of the faithful is the incessant cacophony of confusing and contradictory decretals, condemnations, withholdings of Sacraments, threats, ostracizations, positions, deceits, lies, misleadings, etc, at the hands of the warring, territorial, divisive, self-serving trad clergy.

They prey on us like carrion birds!!!
I find it’s more the lay followers of self-serving trad clergy who are the problem. They gossip to the clergy in hopes of gaining his favor. Most, but not all of these tend to be women. These groupies of trad clergy are a clique of bullies who drive away those who don’t meet their approval. 

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2025, 10:03:53 AM »
I think the difference is that a priest saying mass in a hotel room, airport, town hall, etc. is going to be bringing his own consecrated altar stone, which as far as I know is required for a licit mass (if not using a consecrated set altar). Any problems with a location that has been used for sinful purposes (e.g. Hotel room) can probably be solved with a blessing or simple exorcism, and that is most likely what happens in those situations. But I'm not even sure if that is absolutely necessary as long there is a consecrated altar..I think the greater concern is the altar as that is where the Holy Sacrifice is celebrated

That would be unfortunate if the SSPX used NO churches without reconsecrating the altar. I do believe I have seen some criticism of the sspx using churches with diocesan permission in some states, but it may have been directed more towards them being on friendly terms with the NO than the altar issue

Well, it's technically illicit to offer Mass in hotel rooms, town halls, etc. without explicit permission of an Ordinary as well, and the requirement to have an altar stone is in that same category, so I don't believe it would remedy the situation per se.  I somehow feel that the state of emergency in the Church permitting use of hotel conference rooms, etc. ... has probably been stretched a little too far where it's considered almost an ordinary modus operandi rather than being an irregularity that should be an exception only permitted rarely by the Ordinary, perhaps almost approximating the NO attitude of having "Masses" anywhere, like the one guy in Italy who said Mass waist-deep in water on a flotation device on a beach with everyone mostly undressed.  Not quite there, but it appears to have moved in that direction just a little bit.


Re: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2025, 10:14:22 AM »
I find it’s more the lay followers of self-serving trad clergy who are the problem. They gossip to the clergy in hopes of gaining his favor. Most, but not all of these tend to be women. These groupies of trad clergy are a clique of bullies who drive away those who don’t meet their approval.

I have seen this happen innumerable times. It's a disgusting thing to behold. But, I've always laid the blame for it on the clergy. They promote this atmosphere, and use such women for their own ends. 

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2025, 10:14:31 AM »
The problem of the faithful is the incessant cacophony of confusing and contradictory decretals, condemnations, withholdings of Sacraments, threats, ostracizations, positions, deceits, lies, misleadings, etc, at the hands of the warring, territorial, divisive, self-serving trad clergy.

They prey on us like carrion birds!!!

Indeed, and I've come to tune out all this noise.  Among the Trad clergy, there are perhaps one or two dogmatic issues that might warrant some kind of principled division, and even those are very much mitigated by the confusion of these days ... but the other conclusions are always several logical steps removed from Catholic doctrine, and yet they assume that because one of their operating premises is de fide their conclusion is also, since their logic is undoubtedly impeccable.  That's simply not true.  During this day and age, if a priest PROFESSES the Catholic faith and does not adhere to some OBVIOUS manifest heresy that all agree is heresy ... I hold that it's licit for the faithful to assist at their Masses and receive the Sacraments.  So, for instance, if there were some priest out there calling himself Traditional Catholic, but had decided that Our Lady is God or said that the Pope is just like any other bishop, etc. ... yeah, that's obvious heresy.  But to put various disputed questions, like whether Bergoglio is pope, into that same category?  If those priests are in error, it's between them and God.  NEVER has the Church required the faithful to be theologians in order to evaluate the validity of their theological arguments and their various positions.

I said principled divisions, because I can see some things requiring a practical division, e.g. if one group admits NO priests who are not conditionally consecrated or who they consider to otherwise have doubtful Orders, or where one group offers pre-1955 Holy Week, the other post- ... where just practically it can't work.  But they cross the line when they impose these opinions or positions on the faithful by threat of withholding Sacraments.  If, for instance, I felt that +Thuc line Holy Orders were doubtful, I might opine along those lines and perhaps warn the faithful about it ... but if they disagree you withhold the Sacraments from them?  Seriously?  On whose authority are you attempting to bind consciences under pain of effective excommunication (refusal of Sacraments, which is basically an excommunication).

Re: Validity Eastern Catholic Orders
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2025, 10:15:21 AM »
Apparently they use a consecrated cloth containing relics called an antimension, which is required to be on the altar when celebrating the liturgy, and itself can be used as a portable altar when there is no altar. So that brings up a very interesting question..what are the implications of using the antimension, which suffices as a portable altar, on top of a desecrated altar? I don't know :laugh1:

I don't know either! But thanks for the info!