Author Topic: Traditional Catholics (Read 7084 times)

Mabel · « **Reply #30 on:** June 29, 2014, 04:38:35 PM »

2 Thessalonians 2:14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

We are keeping the Faith.

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #31 on:** June 29, 2014, 04:45:42 PM »

When the Apostles approached our Lord, inquiring about signs that would precede the consummation of the world, Jesus replied, "Take heed that no man seduce you: For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many." Continuing a few verses later,

Quote

24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many.
24:11 et multi pseudoprophetae surgent et seducent multos

24:12 And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold.
24:12 et quoniam abundabit iniquitas refrigescet caritas multorum

24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.
24:13 qui autem permanserit usque in finem hic salvus erit

trickster · « **Reply #32 on:** July 01, 2014, 09:06:03 AM »

Quote from: Marie Auxiliadora

One opinion:

Quote
…St. Thomas distinguishes two aspects to the virtue of Faith. The first is the interior submission of the mind and will to the revelation of God on the authority of God. The second is the exterior manifestation of this interior assent. Both are necessary to the virtue of Faith without which, “it is impossible to please God” (Heb. 11:6). For as St. Paul said, “For, with the heart, we believe unto justice; but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation” (Rom. 10:9-10). The “confession unto salvation,” the “exterior” aspect of Faith is manifested by acts of the virtue of Religion, which form the very heart of our Ecclesiastical Traditions.

Traditional Catholics and Conservative Catholics belong to the genus that believes in the internal forum all that God has revealed through His Son, Jesus Christ. They differ from one another in the external forum regarding exactly how that faith is visibly expressed. The Conservative Catholics hold that the Ecclesiastical Traditions by which the faith is visibly manifested in the external forum are purely accidental elements governed solely as matters of Church discipline and subject to the free and independent will of the legislator to which every Catholic is obliged to obey.

The Traditional Catholics reject this position and hold that the ecclesiastical traditions are an essential and integral component of our faith being wholly consonant with and the perfect outward expression of our internal belief which we are morally obliged to profess as our duty to God and thus they cannot be purely a matter of Church discipline. Further, Traditional Catholics recognize that for Obedience to be a virtue, it must be subject to and governed by the virtue of Religion which is the principle subsidiary virtue of the moral virtue of Justice. Traditional Catholics deny that any authority of whatever rank can validly be used against the virtue of Religion…
http://www.saintspeterandpaulrcm.com/OPEN%20LETTERS/REMNANT%20REPLY%20%2008%20WEB%20DRAFT.htm

This quote Marie, is one of the most clear differentiation of conservative and traditional catholics that I have heard so far. It is very helpful, thank you and "give it up for Thomas Aquinas" super.

Trickster
Bruce Ferguson

trickster · « **Reply #33 on:** July 01, 2014, 09:16:15 AM »

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

Quote from: trickster
I am very curious about the term Traditional Catholics...

When I created http://TraditionalCatholic.net near fifteen years ago, I choose the name "Traditional" to differentiate myself from the "Modern" Catholic thought and practice. I would not have had to utilize the adjective "Traditional" to describe what had always been Catholic if the "Modern" church had not falsely labeled their apostate belief and practice as "Catholic". So, simple stated, Traditional Catholic is what has always been understood as Catholic, and the "Novus Ordo", as they are known, is something other than what has always been Catholic (even though they use the name "Catholic" to describe their modernized theology).

First of all JohnAnthonyMarie, thank you for letting me know about your website....I took a quick look at it and it looks very informative, it will likely be a source of information for me. Great stuff!

I had thought Benedict XVI and the (arch)bishop for St. Pius X society (sorry I can't remember the proper name) had been working on resolving differences or trying to reconcile catholic thinking in general. Like anywhere else, new ideas (which are not bad in themselves) - even the church prior to Vatican II adopted new ideas and strategies.

I don't pretend to understand enough about the pre-Vatican II church and am in the process of keeping an open mind to understand the position of "traditional Catholics" in the positions they have taken and evolved over the last 50 or so years. I look forward to your thinking and response as I put ideas and thoughts out there.. Right now though NhilObstate has bombarded me with reading that will probably last me a month (or two :) And then I need time to adequately reflect and think on them to form my own opinion and thoughts for discussion on this forum.

Thanks for your thought and I look forward to the process.e

Trickster
Bruce Ferguson

trickster · « **Reply #34 on:** July 01, 2014, 09:20:17 AM »

Quote from: Mabel

2 Thessalonians 2:14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

We are keeping the Faith.

Thank you Mabel

Bruce
Trickster

trickster · « **Reply #35 on:** July 01, 2014, 09:22:11 AM »

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

When the Apostles approached our Lord, inquiring about signs that would precede the consummation of the world, Jesus replied, "Take heed that no man seduce you: For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many." Continuing a few verses later,

Quote
24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many.
24:11 et multi pseudoprophetae surgent et seducent multos

24:12 And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold.
24:12 et quoniam abundabit iniquitas refrigescet caritas multorum

24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.
24:13 qui autem permanserit usque in finem hic salvus erit

Thank you JohnAnthonyMarie.

Bruce

Lighthouse · « **Reply #36 on:** July 01, 2014, 11:53:40 AM »

Hey, Mr. Ferguson, is this you?
Matthew Fox-No thanks!

Do you believe in Original Sin?

What's that "queer home" you sponsor?

Does it have anything to do with this picture on the site?

Sisters from Hell

You need to go frolic among your own.

PerEvangelicaDicta · « **Reply #37 on:** July 01, 2014, 01:25:35 PM »

Quote from: Lighthouse

Hey, Mr. Ferguson, is this you?
Matthew Fox-No thanks!

Do you believe in Original Sin?

What's that "queer home" you sponsor?

Does it have anything to do with this picture on the site?

Sisters from Hell

You need to go frolic among your own.

ruh roh.

If this is you, Mr. Ferguson, and if indeed you are in earnest pursuit of truth, charitable correction is mandated by the Father, so buckle up.

trickster · « **Reply #38 on:** July 01, 2014, 10:34:37 PM »

Quote from: Lighthouse

Hey, Mr. Ferguson, is this you?
Matthew Fox-No thanks!

Do you believe in Original Sin?

What's that "queer home" you sponsor?

Does it have anything to do with this picture on the site?

Sisters from Hell

You need to go frolic among your own.

Hello Lighthouse. Yes, Rev. Dr. Matthew Fox has done some interesting work that sheds light. I know that as a post modern theologian his arguments may be contrary to your own held positions and while some of his work was rejected it was a very limited part, basically paganism and feminist theoretical expressions within his works. He did not, by the way, work against original sin, what he argued is that original sin (a tradition developed by Augustine) should be read against an earlier Hebrew tradition that Fox coins as Original Blessing. As you know Ratzinger said that those were problematic with the positions of the Catholic Church...that does not mean that all of Fox's work were rejected. He is a very interesting theologian indeed.

What queer home do I sponsor? You lost me on that one... I know that I did share some ideas with gαy Catholics on Creation Spirituality but other than that. your loosing me... I check that web page and get back to you on it, thank you for point it out...

In terms of gαy... I do support the dignity and quality of life for gαy people...and that is consistent with post-Vatican II Catholic teaching...I believe Pope Paul VI set out the frameworks for our church to address the reality of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity. I do not believe in a hard line opposition to brothers, sisters and transgendered people, not loving them, denies the ability to build a trust and allow them to look from their hearts at the invitation of Our Lord, I do not believe that condemnation (of which I am not qualified to do) is not witihin my ability, my only ability is to love the least of my bretheren.

The whole issue of how as a Christian community whether we are traditional, conservative or other kind of catholic (i.e. progressive catholics which I have already stated I am in conversation with around indigenous relations) is a very interesting and important conversation... I look forward to your views...

Take care for now... and I will follow up with those websites and get back to you.

Tricskter
Bruce Ferguson

trickster · « **Reply #39 on:** July 01, 2014, 10:44:03 PM »

Quote from: Lighthouse

Hey, Mr. Ferguson, is this you?
Matthew Fox-No thanks!

Do you believe in Original Sin?

What's that "queer home" you sponsor?

Does it have anything to do with this picture on the site?

Sisters from Hell

You need to go frolic among your own.

OK...just as I thought. Lighthouse I have nothing to do with the management of Vancouver Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. I am a member as I think it is important to keep an open door to all views. I am not naive, nor do I believe everything it says. The website is counter culture and sometimes in counter culture we find gems of wisdom. I completely forgot about this site in all honesty :)

I know in my indigenous traditions, we do have "clowns" and "clowing" as part of our most sacred indigenous traditions (Long House, Sun Dance, etc.) so I am always open to see how creativity and energy are in conversation with the sacred.

I apparently cannot see the conversation we had, so I can't remember the context of my participation in the site...that I would be very interesting....hope that is helpful...take care Lighthouse.... :)

Trickster
Bruce Ferguson

trickster · « **Reply #40 on:** July 01, 2014, 10:47:17 PM »

Quote from: PerEvangelicaDicta

Quote from: Lighthouse
Hey, Mr. Ferguson, is this you?
Matthew Fox-No thanks!

Do you believe in Original Sin?

What's that "queer home" you sponsor?

Does it have anything to do with this picture on the site?

Sisters from Hell

You need to go frolic among your own.

ruh roh.

If this is you, Mr. Ferguson, and if indeed you are in earnest pursuit of truth, charitable correction is mandated by the Father, so buckle up.

Indeed PerEvangelicals Dicta...but I think you would agree authentic correction should be based on facts...there was a bit of an insinuation here in the way Lighthouse phrased his postings....I think you will also note that I have been very open as to what I think and for sure I am open to being challenged, all of us should be ready to go out of our comfort zone. So seat belts fastened my friend..

Trickster
Bruce Ferguson

trickster · « **Reply #41 on:** July 01, 2014, 10:48:36 PM »

Quote from: trickster

Quote from: PerEvangelicaDicta
Quote from: Lighthouse
Hey, Mr. Ferguson, is this you?
Matthew Fox-No thanks!

Do you believe in Original Sin?

What's that "queer home" you sponsor?

Does it have anything to do with this picture on the site?

Sisters from Hell

You need to go frolic among your own.

ruh roh.

If this is you, Mr. Ferguson, and if indeed you are in earnest pursuit of truth, charitable correction is mandated by the Father, so buckle up.

Indeed PerEvangelicals Dicta...but I think you would agree authentic correction should be based on facts...there was a bit of an insinuation here in the way Lighthouse phrased his postings....I think you will also note that I have been very open as to what I think and for sure I am open to being challenged, all of us should be ready to go out of our comfort zone. So seat belts fastened my friend..

By the way, I do sign with my real name, I think one should recognize that as a good indication of authenticity...I know all things can be found on me via internet searches...but we have nothing to fear, but fear itself...who said that...was it Roosevelt? :) Look forward to your thinking...

Trickster
Bruce Ferguson

trickster · « **Reply #42 on:** July 02, 2014, 12:22:01 AM »

Quote from: Lighthouse

Hey, Mr. Ferguson, is this you?
Matthew Fox-No thanks!

Do you believe in Original Sin?

What's that "queer home" you sponsor?

Does it have anything to do with this picture on the site?

Sisters from Hell

You need to go frolic among your own.

Sorry Lighthouse, I did not see your first link which is my Creation Spirituality page. Yes that is me.....for sure...It does give you a better idea of my research, discussions, guessing ventures, etc. around models that could talk about bridging theologies between Native spirituality and Catholic teaching...this of course within the context of the Vatican II church...h

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster

Nickolas · « **Reply #43 on:** July 02, 2014, 12:59:53 AM »

Trickster, Bruce Ferguson, or whatever your name is, you are absolutely wrong in saying that: "all of us should be ready to go out of our comfort zone" unless you qualify what you mean. For a Traditional Catholic, the only movement out of our comfort zone is to a place of greater penance for the salvation of our souls and the love of our Blessed Lord. If you believe otherwise, you have the wrong concept of what it means to be a Traditional Catholic. I suspect your presence here is not innocent and if you came to take souls into your evil belief system rather than discard the chains that have you tied up, you are wasting your time and ours.

Your very presence, disguised in some form of new age mush, is more telling in various other websites about tricksters, a title you seem to embrace with relish.

How about this one: http://www.trickedbythelight.com/tbtl/TricksterGod.shtml

May you ultimately find the true light in the Traditional Catholic Church. We can't convince you of truth, you must see it yourself. We can pray that you do so.

cassini · « **Reply #44 on:** July 02, 2014, 06:20:36 AM »

Quote from: trickster

I am very curious about the term Traditional Catholics...I first came across that term in Catholic Answers...and I believe that they are fitting a traditional catholic framework in the post-vatican II church. What is a traditional catholic within the thinking and conversations here on CathInfo?

trickster

Here is my description trickster. The best people who understand and can describe what a traditional Catholic is are those who lived before Vatican II and more so those who lived in a very Catholic country (like Ireland prior to Vatican II).

Traditional Catholicism, one could say is pre-Vatican II Catholicism. It included first and foremost all that is contained and taught in the pre-Vatican II catechism, the catechism of Trent so to speak. Mine was the 1952 Bishops of Ireland version, still available here in print. It had/has all the uncompromised teachings of the Catholic Church. The Mass and other liturgies were those developed to perfection in the centuries after Christ.

As pointed out by other posters, the term traditional Catholicism was not used then, simply Catholicism. Post Vatican II Catholicism is so compromised that it is now necessary to use the term ‘traditional Catholicism’ to distinguish between the pre Vatican II Catholicism and the post-Vatican II Catholicism.