I am very curious about the term Traditional Catholics...I first came across that term in Catholic Answers...and I believe that they are fitting a traditional catholic framework in the post-vatican II church. What is a traditional catholic within the thinking and conversations here on CathInfo?
trickster
According to the die-hard Novus Ordinarian:
They are just fad followers.
According to the indult:
Traditional Catholics follow the Old Rites by courtesy in order to combat the wickedness so rampant in this world more effectively and worship more effectively while keeping up with the current framework and reverently and pass some good customs to the next generation. Those TLM-onlyists are just nuisances to the Church because they are uncharitable and hinder the progress if the Church.
According to (the average CI user? the SSPX?):
Traditional Catholics stay with the Old Rites because it's the only working Rite in order to combat the wickedness of this world, helped by the decline of the Church. VII actually didn't help the Church gaining more relevancy nor extending Her hand to distant areas, it actually weakened the Church against the dark forces by making evangelism harder, denying the access to certain Sacraments, invalidating the exorcisms, stripping the Mass of its' value, etc. We need to pass our good customs and values, ever present in the Tradition, to the next generation, which they obviously don't get in secular schools, clown liturgies which made the Church ridiculous, and the media which even corrupts them. There is a possibility that the systematic weakening of the Church was deliberate and was faciliated by the enemies of the Church. The indult is making compromises. Our Church is collapsing and we are trying to slow it down and possibly, stop it.
Quote from: tricksterI am very curious about the term Traditional Catholics...I first came across that term in Catholic Answers...and I believe that they are fitting a traditional catholic framework in the post-vatican II church. What is a traditional catholic within the thinking and conversations here on CathInfo?
trickster
TROLL ALERT . . . . . . TROLL ALERT
BAN trickster
OVER AND OUT
Quote from: tricksterI am very curious about the term Traditional Catholics...I first came across that term in Catholic Answers...and I believe that they are fitting a traditional catholic framework in the post-vatican II church. What is a traditional catholic within the thinking and conversations here on CathInfo?
trickster
TROLL ALERT . . . . . . TROLL ALERT
BAN trickster
OVER AND OUT
I think Trickster is a regular poster over at Catholic Answers who has mixed loyalty. He's officially a Catholic but also an adherent of American Indian religions and such. I may be mistaken.
Traditional Catholics support the Traditional Latin Mass and oppose the New Order of the Mass.
Traditional Catholics know that it is of the faith that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus) and oppose the new ecuмenical/interfaith movement.
Traditional Catholics know that the Bible and the Saints taught that few are saved/majority are damned, and that universal salvation is a heresy.
Books that vindicate the traditional Catholic movement are The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita and Aa-1025 The Memoirs of a Communist's Infiltration in to the Church.
Papal encyclicals that vindicate the traditional Catholic movement are Pope Leo XIII [/i]Providentissimus Deus (On the study of Sacred Scripture) and Pope Pius XI Mortalium Animos (On true religious unity), among countless others.
Fake traditional Catholics are those who attend the traditional Latin Mass solely for aesthetic preferences, but don't actually oppose liberal/modernist errors that are destroying the Church and leading many souls to eternal damnation.
Quote from: MarylandTradTraditional Catholics support the Traditional Latin Mass and oppose the New Order of the Mass.
Traditional Catholics know that it is of the faith that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus) and oppose the new ecuмenical/interfaith movement.
Traditional Catholics know that the Bible and the Saints taught that few are saved/majority are damned, and that universal salvation is a heresy.
Books that vindicate the traditional Catholic movement are The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita and Aa-1025 The Memoirs of a Communist's Infiltration in to the Church.
Papal encyclicals that vindicate the traditional Catholic movement are Pope Leo XIII [/i]Providentissimus Deus (On the study of Sacred Scripture) and Pope Pius XI Mortalium Animos (On true religious unity), among countless others.
Fake traditional Catholics are those who attend the traditional Latin Mass solely for aesthetic preferences, but don't actually oppose liberal/modernist errors that are destroying the Church and leading many souls to eternal damnation.
ha
Awesome resources, thank you much MarylandTraditional....I will look those up. Are you aware of any resources that would express what the pre-Vatican II teaching on evangelism, cultural incorporation and so forth...as you may know< I am old enough to remember the traditional church, I am a Vatican II generation guy, but my mother and grandmother grew up as indigenous people in the church prior to the changes. There is so much to explore on the beauty of the church prior to the Council (as well as the last fifty years) that speak to the church's concern and care for our people. So, yeah, if you can think of any resources that would throw light on this.. I'd appreciate.
You have already filled my reading schedule for the next month though :) thanks Hope to hear a lot from you.
Trickster
Bruce Ferguson (Real name)
Quote from: Neil ObstatQuote from: tricksterI am very curious about the term Traditional Catholics...I first came across that term in Catholic Answers...and I believe that they are fitting a traditional catholic framework in the post-vatican II church. What is a traditional catholic within the thinking and conversations here on CathInfo?
trickster
TROLL ALERT . . . . . . TROLL ALERT
BAN trickster
OVER AND OUT
Hi NeilObstat. :) Wow you are fast! This was my very first posting and already there are calls for banishment... I have to say that would be my record of getting kicked off a website...
I am very authentic in my question, read a bit of my stuff, thoughts, reflections before you ban me :)
Trickster
Bruce Ferguson (real name)
Quote from: Capt McQuiggI think Trickster is a regular poster over at Catholic Answers who has mixed loyalty. He's officially a Catholic but also an adherent of American Indian religions and such. I may be mistaken.
Thank you Capt McQuigg, yes I am a regular poster at Catholic Answers and I am in enough trouble with conservatives on that site :) I am interested in talking with everyone around the issue of the relationship between the church and indigenous peoples. I even converse with progressive Catholics on the issue. My interest is to learn from everyone and from there develop my understanding.
I hope that people here on Cathinfo sense my sincerety and my interest is not to debate the merits of either position but to pose questions that will help me develop my thinking on relations between the chruch, christianity in general and how it effects aboriginal Iindigenous peoples)... we had some very bad experiences with residential school abuse,
so my interest is more in healing and encouraging conversation that is open minded and explorative in the most authentic and honest way we as human beings are capable of.
My brain and heart is open to all
and if you read my postings on catholic answers you will see a consistency in my appraoch... i did get booted off a couple of times not so much for my own views or behaviours but more for the negative and often unkind or uncharitable responses that I am sure Jesus would not be too happy to hear...
Anyways, I look forward to learning with you and making new friends on this site.
Take care Capt!
Trickster
Real Name: Bruce Ferguson
Quote from: MarylandTradTraditional Catholics support the Traditional Latin Mass and oppose the New Order of the Mass.
Traditional Catholics know that it is of the faith that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus) and oppose the new ecuмenical/interfaith movement.
QuoteTraditional Catholics know that the Bible and the Saints taught that few are saved/majority are damned, and that universal salvation is a heresy.
Books that vindicate the traditional Catholic movement are The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita and Aa-1025 The Memoirs... of a Communist's Infiltration in to the Church.
QuotePapal encyclicals that vindicate the traditional Catholic movement are Pope Leo XIII Providentissimus Deus (On the study of Sacred Scripture) and Pope Pius XI Mortalium Animos (On true religious unity), among countless others.
QuoteFake traditional Catholics are those who attend the traditional Latin Mass solely for aesthetic preferences, but don't actually oppose liberal/modernist errors that are destroying the Church and leading many souls to eternal damnation. [/i]
ha
Awesome resources, thank you much MarylandTraditional....I will look those up. Are you aware of any resources that would express what the pre-Vatican II teaching [was] on evangelism, cultural incorporation and so forth
...as you may know< I am old enough to remember the traditional church, I am a Vatican II generation guy, but my mother and grandmother grew up as indigenous people in the church prior to the changes. There is so much to explore on the beauty of the church prior to the Council (as well as the last fifty years) that speak to the church's concern and care for our people. So, yeah, if you can think of any resources that would throw light on this.. I'd appreciate.
You have already filled my reading schedule for the next month though :) thanks Hope to hear a lot from you.
Trickster
Bruce Ferguson (Real name)
Quote from: tricksterQuote from: MarylandTradTraditional Catholics support the Traditional Latin Mass and oppose the New Order of the Mass.
Thank you NeilObstat for your thoughts.. I want to share my thinking on your thoughts as well to provide light to the relationship of the church in regards to evangelization of Indigenous peoples.
Traditional Catholics know that it is of the faith that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus) and oppose the new ecuмenical/interfaith movement.
FYI, whenever you see "EENS" here (the Latin, extra ecclesiam nulla salus means, "outside the Church there is no salvation"), you are seeing a dogma of the Faith that has been defined ex-cathedra (infallibly) on at least 3 different occasions (13th, 14th and 15th centuries) in the history of the Church, the most prominent of which were these:
Thank you on the EENS... I have no knowledge of latin.
1) “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (13th c.)
2) “It is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature, to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (14th c. -- "Indigenous peoples" as you say, ought to become aware of this, for their own sake.)
3) So important is this doctrine that no one, even if he were to pour out his blood for the name of Christ can be saved, unless he dies within the bosom of Holy Mother Church. (15th c.)
I believe Catholics as a whole share that general goal, the question is how to gain trust in indigenous communities, the style of evangelization - even in the old church which I believe you posted indicated that the church even prior to Vatican II allowed for a great flexibility in the evangelization process so that dynamic remains important in any discussion on relationship development ...QuoteQuoteTraditional Catholics know that the Bible and the Saints taught that few are saved/majority are damned, and that universal salvation is a heresy.
Books that vindicate the traditional Catholic movement are The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita and Aa-1025 The Memoirs... of a Communist's Infiltration in to the Church.
To do with the Mason's attempt to influence catholic thinking...got it bookmarked ..thanks.
It seems to me that a great starting point for you might be the book, AA-1025: The Memoirs of an Anti-Apostle, by Marie Carre, TAN Books. It is widely available, especially online.
from the fatima movement- bookmarked and online.. thanks.
From the back cover: "...Absorbing and compelling reading from beginning to end,... must-reading for every Catholic today, and for all who would understand just what has happened to undermine the Catholic Church since the 1960's..."QuoteQuotePapal encyclicals that vindicate the traditional Catholic movement are Pope Leo XIII Providentissimus Deus (On the study of Sacred Scripture) and Pope Pius XI Mortalium Animos (On true religious unity), among countless others.
Neil Obstat, I am assuming the above encyclicals are broad based and that you are recommending this as a background to the movement of catholics who want to remain true to the church as it existed prior to Vatican II....would it be that one should understand the relationship of the indigenous community with the church from the context of these docuмents..or do they speak specifically of pre-Vatican II church teaching on working with our peoples?
Any such list would be incomplete without mention of Pascendi domenici gregis (1907, St. Pius X), the landmark encyclical of the only Pope-Saint for 400 years during the 20th century.QuoteQuoteFake traditional Catholics are those who attend the traditional Latin Mass solely for aesthetic preferences, but don't actually oppose liberal/modernist errors that are destroying the Church and leading many souls to eternal damnation. [/i]
ha
Awesome resources, thank you much MarylandTraditional....I will look those up. Are you aware of any resources that would express what the pre-Vatican II teaching [was] on evangelism, cultural incorporation and so forth
It had always been the Tradition of the Church to adopt what is naturally good from pagan cultures wherever the Church went in the world, but regarding evangelism, the Church seeks to preach the Gospel according to the commission of Our Lord in Scripture (cf. Mark xvi. 14f, esp. 16).Quote...as you may know< I am old enough to remember the traditional church, I am a Vatican II generation guy, but my mother and grandmother grew up as indigenous people in the church prior to the changes. There is so much to explore on the beauty of the church prior to the Council (as well as the last fifty years) that speak to the church's concern and care for our people. So, yeah, if you can think of any resources that would throw light on this.. I'd appreciate.
You have already filled my reading schedule for the next month though :) thanks Hope to hear a lot from you.
Trickster
Bruce Ferguson (Real name)
You seem to be looking specifically for docuмents relating to the Church's teaching on how to conduct missionary activities.
While there may be an encyclical somewhere about that, I suspect it would be more likely to find something as an Apostolic Letter or a "Vatican statement" or perhaps a private letter, since the Holy See doesn't usually provide messages specific to a narrow audience while addressing it to the entire Church.
The Church has allowed wide freedom of evangelization techniques to missionaries, for they had to adopt their tactics and approach to their specific situation at all times.
You might like to read some of the sermons of St. Francis Xavier, who converted perhaps millions of people in India and Asia in the 16th (xvi) century.
.
It's landlord line heretics that worry me the most.
Quote from: tricksterQuote from: MarylandTradTraditional Catholics support the Traditional Latin Mass and oppose the New Order of the Mass.
Traditional Catholics know that it is of the faith that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus) and oppose the new ecuмenical/interfaith movement.
Traditional Catholics know that the Bible and the Saints taught that few are saved/majority are damned, and that universal salvation is a heresy.
Books that vindicate the traditional Catholic movement are The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita and Aa-1025 The Memoirs of a Communist's Infiltration in to the Church.
Papal encyclicals that vindicate the traditional Catholic movement are Pope Leo XIII [/i]Providentissimus Deus (On the study of Sacred Scripture) and Pope Pius XI Mortalium Animos (On true religious unity), among countless others.
Fake traditional Catholics are those who attend the traditional Latin Mass solely for aesthetic preferences, but don't actually oppose liberal/modernist errors that are destroying the Church and leading many souls to eternal damnation.
ha
Awesome resources, thank you much MarylandTraditional....I will look those up. Are you aware of any resources that would express what the pre-Vatican II teaching on evangelism, cultural incorporation and so forth...as you may know< I am old enough to remember the traditional church, I am a Vatican II generation guy, but my mother and grandmother grew up as indigenous people in the church prior to the changes. There is so much to explore on the beauty of the church prior to the Council (as well as the last fifty years) that speak to the church's concern and care for our people. So, yeah, if you can think of any resources that would throw light on this.. I'd appreciate.
You have already filled my reading schedule for the next month though :) thanks Hope to hear a lot from you.
Trickster
Bruce Ferguson (Real name)
Hi Mr. Ferguson,
Here is a link to an article that might be of interest to you about Ven. Antonio Margil de Jesus who converted countless Indians of Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Guatemala, and Texas. http://www.traditioninaction.org/Margil/AM003_Tape_ApostleTexas.htm
Here is a link to another article about the North American martyrs and some of the Indians they converted http://www.traditioninaction.org/History/B_002_NAIndians_Quijano.html
The missionary zeal of the martyrs is foreign to most modern Catholics because they no longer are aware of or believe in the necessity of being Catholic to go to heaven.
-John
Quote from: tricksterQuote from: Capt McQuiggI think Trickster is a regular poster over at Catholic Answers who has mixed loyalty. He's officially a Catholic but also an adherent of American Indian religions and such. I may be mistaken.
Thank you Capt McQuigg, yes I am a regular poster at Catholic Answers and I am in enough trouble with conservatives on that site :) I am interested in talking with everyone around the issue of the relationship between the church and indigenous peoples. I even converse with progressive Catholics on the issue. My interest is to learn from everyone and from there develop my understanding.
Do you know about the Athanasian Creed?
I am aware that it exists, yes.. but have not paid much attention to it... will catch up on reading about it....could you expand on this point? Why did you make the point? Is there much of a difference with that and the Apostles Creed, etc. and the various other creeds that found their way in the emerging early churchQuoteI hope that people here on Cathinfo sense my sincerety and my interest is not to debate the merits of either position but to pose questions that will help me develop my thinking on relations between the chruch, christianity in general and how it effects aboriginal Iindigenous peoples)... we had some very bad experiences with residential school abuse,
What do you mean by "residential school" and who are "we?"Quoteso my interest is more in healing and encouraging conversation that is open minded and explorative in the most authentic and honest way we as human beings are capable of.
My brain and heart is open to all
I would caution you to be aware that being "open to all" invites demonic possession.
Do you know what diabolical disorientation and demonic possession are?Quoteand if you read my postings on catholic answers you will see a consistency in my appraoch... i did get booted off a couple of times not so much for my own views or behaviours but more for the negative and often unkind or uncharitable responses that I am sure Jesus would not be too happy to hear...
Did you ever notice what type of member was usually the one to have reported your posts at CAF when the mods deleted something that you had posted?QuoteAnyways, I look forward to learning with you and making new friends on this site.
Take care Capt!
Trickster
Real Name: Bruce Ferguson
.
Quote from: Neil ObstatQuote from: tricksterQuote from: Capt McQuiggI think Trickster is a regular poster over at Catholic Answers who has mixed loyalty. He's officially a Catholic but also an adherent of American Indian religions and such. I may be mistaken.
Thank you Capt McQuigg, yes I am a regular poster at Catholic Answers and I am in enough trouble with conservatives on that site :) I am interested in talking with everyone around the issue of the relationship between the church and indigenous peoples. I even converse with progressive Catholics on the issue. My interest is to learn from everyone and from there develop my understanding.
Do you know about the Athanasian Creed?
I am aware that it exists, yes.. but have not paid much attention to it... will catch up on reading about it....could you expand on this point? Why did you make the point? Is there much of a difference with that and the Apostles Creed, etc. and the various other creeds that found their way in the emerging early churchQuoteI hope that people here on Cathinfo sense my sincerety and my interest is not to debate the merits of either position but to pose questions that will help me develop my thinking on relations between the chruch, christianity in general and how it effects aboriginal Iindigenous peoples)... we had some very bad experiences with residential school abuse,
What do you mean by "residential school" and who are "we?" - Yes, Residential schools in Canada were Cathollic, United Church and the Anglicans who took contracts from the Federal Canadian government to "de-indianize" the Indian by forcing the separation of children as early as 5 yrs old from their parents, transporting the children hundreds of miles a way to a residential school institution, the children were punished everytime they spoke their language, some children died and were buried secretly in the residential school property with unmarked graves, the kids were taught english, math, all the basics of the day and were always under a threat of apunishing god if they did something wrong even the reporting of sɛҳuąƖ or physical abuse at the hands of nuns, brothers or priests....this was so contratry to the notion of an interconnected creation that was more to the point of native sprituality that the chidren had indigenous grandparents teach them...I can share more if you are interested. ...that is where the bitterness is in our community...and the only thing our people think of when they hear Catholic is this legacy of abuse....Quoteso my interest is more in healing and encouraging conversation that is open minded and explorative in the most authentic and honest way we as human beings are capable of.
My brain and heart is open to all
I would caution you to be aware that being "open to all" invites demonic possession.
Do you know what diabolical disorientation and demonic possession are? We'll leave this one as we need to sit down and discuss these concepts.. but for now, I will read more about disorientation adn diabolical possesion...what is your opinion on contemporary psychiatry and psychology..that would be helpful for me to situate the background of your point above.Quoteand if you read my postings on catholic answers you will see a consistency in my appraoch... i did get booted off a couple of times not so much for my own views or behaviours but more for the negative and often unkind or uncharitable responses that I am sure Jesus would not be too happy to hear...
Did you ever notice what type of member was usually the one to have reported your posts at CAF when the mods deleted something that you had posted?
Ah, I don't sweat the small stuff; I am not here to tell people what they want to hear or don't want to hear, I am here to learn, make friends and grow in our faith..it is badge of merit to get banned anyways :)QuoteAnyways, I look forward to learning with you and making new friends on this site.
Take care Capt!
Trickster
Real Name: Bruce Ferguson
.
Quote from: Neil ObstatQuote from: tricksterQuote from: MarylandTradTQuoteQuoteT
It had always been the Tradition of the Church to adopt what is naturally good from pagan cultures wherever the Church went in the world, but regarding evangelism, the Church seeks to preach the Gospel according to the commission of Our Lord in Scripture (cf. Mark xvi. 14f, esp. 16).
NeilObstat, I missed commenting on the above point that the church has always accepted what is good within the pagan culture but in a manner that honours, respects and is loyal to the message of Jesus, and perhaps to the ʝʊdɛօ-christian heritage that our church has as her legacy.
Your point is exciting cause it is the point that is the foundation of my interest in relations. What is inherently good and bad has been portrayed in relative terms and in terms of misunderstanding by front line missionaries for so long...with the introduction of priest who were anthropologists, these misunderstandings our narrowing, so with greater understanding we can better define if you will what is inherently good in pagan culture...that makes me a pagan because I am an indigenous person ...we'll have to explore that a bit more. The Jesuits in the pre-VAtican II church already practices a form of inculturation that put cultures in conversation with each other...so that is the exact point of which I am builiding my thinking and writing on.. .it is good to know that we have a common starting point of whcih we can work through the details as we go along.Quote....
.
…St. Thomas distinguishes two aspects to the virtue of Faith. The first is the interior submission of the mind and will to the revelation of God on the authority of God. The second is the exterior manifestation of this interior assent. Both are necessary to the virtue of Faith without which, “it is impossible to please God” (Heb. 11:6). For as St. Paul said, “For, with the heart, we believe unto justice; but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation” (Rom. 10:9-10). The “confession unto salvation,” the “exterior” aspect of Faith is manifested by acts of the virtue of Religion, which form the very heart of our Ecclesiastical Traditions.
Traditional Catholics and Conservative Catholics belong to the genus that believes in the internal forum all that God has revealed through His Son, Jesus Christ. They differ from one another in the external forum regarding exactly how that faith is visibly expressed. The Conservative Catholics hold that the Ecclesiastical Traditions by which the faith is visibly manifested in the external forum are purely accidental elements governed solely as matters of Church discipline and subject to the free and independent will of the legislator to which every Catholic is obliged to obey.
The Traditional Catholics reject this position and hold that the ecclesiastical traditions are an essential and integral component of our faith being wholly consonant with and the perfect outward expression of our internal belief which we are morally obliged to profess as our duty to God and thus they cannot be purely a matter of Church discipline. Further, Traditional Catholics recognize that for Obedience to be a virtue, it must be subject to and governed by the virtue of Religion which is the principle subsidiary virtue of the moral virtue of Justice. Traditional Catholics deny that any authority of whatever rank can validly be used against the virtue of Religion…
http://www.saintspeterandpaulrcm.com/OPEN%20LETTERS/REMNANT%20REPLY%20%2008%20WEB%20DRAFT.htm
I am very curious about the term Traditional Catholics...
24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many.
24:11 et multi pseudoprophetae surgent et seducent multos
24:12 And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold.
24:12 et quoniam abundabit iniquitas refrigescet caritas multorum
24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.
24:13 qui autem permanserit usque in finem hic salvus erit
One opinion:Quote…St. Thomas distinguishes two aspects to the virtue of Faith. The first is the interior submission of the mind and will to the revelation of God on the authority of God. The second is the exterior manifestation of this interior assent. Both are necessary to the virtue of Faith without which, “it is impossible to please God” (Heb. 11:6). For as St. Paul said, “For, with the heart, we believe unto justice; but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation” (Rom. 10:9-10). The “confession unto salvation,” the “exterior” aspect of Faith is manifested by acts of the virtue of Religion, which form the very heart of our Ecclesiastical Traditions.
Traditional Catholics and Conservative Catholics belong to the genus that believes in the internal forum all that God has revealed through His Son, Jesus Christ. They differ from one another in the external forum regarding exactly how that faith is visibly expressed. The Conservative Catholics hold that the Ecclesiastical Traditions by which the faith is visibly manifested in the external forum are purely accidental elements governed solely as matters of Church discipline and subject to the free and independent will of the legislator to which every Catholic is obliged to obey.
The Traditional Catholics reject this position and hold that the ecclesiastical traditions are an essential and integral component of our faith being wholly consonant with and the perfect outward expression of our internal belief which we are morally obliged to profess as our duty to God and thus they cannot be purely a matter of Church discipline. Further, Traditional Catholics recognize that for Obedience to be a virtue, it must be subject to and governed by the virtue of Religion which is the principle subsidiary virtue of the moral virtue of Justice. Traditional Catholics deny that any authority of whatever rank can validly be used against the virtue of Religion…
http://www.saintspeterandpaulrcm.com/OPEN%20LETTERS/REMNANT%20REPLY%20%2008%20WEB%20DRAFT.htm
Quote from: tricksterI am very curious about the term Traditional Catholics...
When I created http://TraditionalCatholic.net near fifteen years ago, I choose the name "Traditional" to differentiate myself from the "Modern" Catholic thought and practice. I would not have had to utilize the adjective "Traditional" to describe what had always been Catholic if the "Modern" church had not falsely labeled their apostate belief and practice as "Catholic". So, simple stated, Traditional Catholic is what has always been understood as Catholic, and the "Novus Ordo", as they are known, is something other than what has always been Catholic (even though they use the name "Catholic" to describe their modernized theology).
2 Thessalonians 2:14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
We are keeping the Faith.
When the Apostles approached our Lord, inquiring about signs that would precede the consummation of the world, Jesus replied, "Take heed that no man seduce you: For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many." Continuing a few verses later,Quote24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many.
24:11 et multi pseudoprophetae surgent et seducent multos
24:12 And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold.
24:12 et quoniam abundabit iniquitas refrigescet caritas multorum
24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.
24:13 qui autem permanserit usque in finem hic salvus erit
Hey, Mr. Ferguson, is this you?
Matthew Fox-No thanks! (http://originalblessing.ning.com/profile/BruceFerguson)
Do you believe in Original Sin?
What's that "queer home" you sponsor?
Does it have anything to do with this picture on the site?
Sisters from Hell (http://originalblessing.ning.com/photo/vancouver-sisters-of-perpetual-indulgence?context=latest)
You need to go frolic among your own.
Hey, Mr. Ferguson, is this you?
Matthew Fox-No thanks! (http://originalblessing.ning.com/profile/BruceFerguson)
Do you believe in Original Sin?
What's that "queer home" you sponsor?
Does it have anything to do with this picture on the site?
Sisters from Hell (http://originalblessing.ning.com/photo/vancouver-sisters-of-perpetual-indulgence?context=latest)
You need to go frolic among your own.
Hey, Mr. Ferguson, is this you?
Matthew Fox-No thanks! (http://originalblessing.ning.com/profile/BruceFerguson)
Do you believe in Original Sin?
What's that "queer home" you sponsor?
Does it have anything to do with this picture on the site?
Sisters from Hell (http://originalblessing.ning.com/photo/vancouver-sisters-of-perpetual-indulgence?context=latest)
You need to go frolic among your own.
Quote from: LighthouseHey, Mr. Ferguson, is this you?
Matthew Fox-No thanks! (http://originalblessing.ning.com/profile/BruceFerguson)
Do you believe in Original Sin?
What's that "queer home" you sponsor?
Does it have anything to do with this picture on the site?
Sisters from Hell (http://originalblessing.ning.com/photo/vancouver-sisters-of-perpetual-indulgence?context=latest)
You need to go frolic among your own.
ruh roh.
If this is you, Mr. Ferguson, and if indeed you are in earnest pursuit of truth, charitable correction is mandated by the Father, so buckle up.
Quote from: PerEvangelicaDictaQuote from: LighthouseHey, Mr. Ferguson, is this you?
Matthew Fox-No thanks! (http://originalblessing.ning.com/profile/BruceFerguson)
Do you believe in Original Sin?
What's that "queer home" you sponsor?
Does it have anything to do with this picture on the site?
Sisters from Hell (http://originalblessing.ning.com/photo/vancouver-sisters-of-perpetual-indulgence?context=latest)
You need to go frolic among your own.
ruh roh.
If this is you, Mr. Ferguson, and if indeed you are in earnest pursuit of truth, charitable correction is mandated by the Father, so buckle up.
Indeed PerEvangelicals Dicta...but I think you would agree authentic correction should be based on facts...there was a bit of an insinuation here in the way Lighthouse phrased his postings....I think you will also note that I have been very open as to what I think and for sure I am open to being challenged, all of us should be ready to go out of our comfort zone. So seat belts fastened my friend..
By the way, I do sign with my real name, I think one should recognize that as a good indication of authenticity...I know all things can be found on me via internet searches...but we have nothing to fear, but fear itself...who said that...was it Roosevelt? :) Look forward to your thinking...
Trickster
Bruce Ferguson
Hey, Mr. Ferguson, is this you?
Matthew Fox-No thanks! (http://originalblessing.ning.com/profile/BruceFerguson)
Do you believe in Original Sin?
What's that "queer home" you sponsor?
Does it have anything to do with this picture on the site?
Sisters from Hell (http://originalblessing.ning.com/photo/vancouver-sisters-of-perpetual-indulgence?context=latest)
You need to go frolic among your own.
I am very curious about the term Traditional Catholics...I first came across that term in Catholic Answers...and I believe that they are fitting a traditional catholic framework in the post-vatican II church. What is a traditional catholic within the thinking and conversations here on CathInfo?
trickster
Trickster, Bruce Ferguson, or whatever your name is, you are absolutely wrong in saying that: "all of us should be ready to go out of our comfort zone" unless you qualify what you mean. For a Traditional Catholic, the only movement out of our comfort zone is to a place of greater penance for the salvation of our souls and the love of our Blessed Lord. If you believe otherwise, you have the wrong concept of what it means to be a Traditional Catholic. I suspect your presence here is not innocent and if you came to take souls into your evil belief system rather than discard the chains that have you tied up, you are wasting your time and ours.
Your very presence, disguised in some form of new age mush, is more telling in various other websites about tricksters, a title you seem to embrace with relish.
How about this one: http://www.trickedbythelight.com/tbtl/TricksterGod.shtml
May you ultimately find the true light in the Traditional Catholic Church. We can't convince you of truth, you must see it yourself. We can pray that you do so.
I do support the dignity and quality of life for gαy people ... and that is consistent with post-Vatican II Catholic teaching ...
I believe Pope Paul VI set out the frameworks for our church to address the reality of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity.
I do not believe in a hard line opposition to brothers, sisters and transgendered people,
not loving them, denies the ability to build a trust and allow them to look from their hearts at the invitation of Our Lord, I do not believe that condemnation (of which I am not qualified to do) is not witihin my ability, my only ability is to love the least of my bretheren.
Quote from: tricksterI am very curious about the term Traditional Catholics...I first came across that term in Catholic Answers...and I believe that they are fitting a traditional catholic framework in the post-vatican II church. What is a traditional catholic within the thinking and conversations here on CathInfo?
trickster
Here is my description trickster. The best people who understand and can describe what a traditional Catholic is are those who lived before Vatican II and more so those who lived in a very Catholic country (like Ireland prior to Vatican II).
Traditional Catholicism, one could say is pre-Vatican II Catholicism. It included first and foremost all that is contained and taught in the pre-Vatican II catechism, the catechism of Trent so to speak. Mine was the 1952 Bishops of Ireland version, still available here in print. It had/has all the uncompromised teachings of the Catholic Church. The Mass and other liturgies were those developed to perfection in the centuries after Christ.
As pointed out by other posters, the term traditional Catholicism was not used then, simply Catholicism. Post Vatican II Catholicism is so compromised that it is now necessary to use the term ‘traditional Catholicism’ to distinguish between the pre Vatican II Catholicism and the post-Vatican II Catholicism.
Quote from: trickster (Jul 1, 2014, 11:34 pm)I do support the dignity and quality of life for gαy people ... and that is consistent with post-Vatican II Catholic teaching ...
Teachings by whom, exactly? What's notably "consistent" with Vatican II is the ambiguity of your wording: "dignity and quality of life"? What would be the theological and practical consequences?Quote from: trickster (Jul 1, 11:34 pm, continued)I believe Pope Paul VI set out the frameworks for our church to address the reality of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity.
What "reality" is that, and what "frameworks" would those be?  I believe you'll find that the investigative authors Rose[1] and Engel[2] separately[0] identified Paul VI's time on the Throne of St. Peter as the flood tide of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity into seminaries--many more than just a handful confined to the most liberal countries or archdioceses. So many that a devout traditional Catholic heterosɛҳuąƖ male--if a man with such a combination of attributes would even be admitted nowadays to any Catholic seminary situated in a Western European culture--who believes he's called to the priesthood, must be extremely careful about choosing a seminary. Consider especially that almost every year's-worth of the U.S. Baby Boom generation (1945--1960) reached the age for choosing their initial institutions of higher learning--whether colleges or seminaries--while Paul VI was sitting as pope. And Paul VI himself openly lamented his belief that
the "smoke of Satan" had entered the Vatican, thus the Church, during that time.Quote from: trickster (Jul 1, 11:34 pm, continued)I do not believe in a hard line opposition to brothers, sisters and transgendered people,
Among traditional Catholics, "brothers" and "sisters" refer only to one's own siblings and to members of religious orders--many of whom would've taken vows of chastity--and is never used as a deferential collective term for gαys, lesbians and the transgendered abominations.
Your use of language is consistent with being a troll (as Neil Obstat alerted us early on), albeit unexpectedly for the Homintern[3], from 1 of your own Web page's listed "Communities", known as the "CS Queer Home". Thus it's not merely "a bit of an insinuation here"; it's at least a tentative conclusion.Quote from: trickster (Jul 1, 11:34 pm, concluded)not loving them, denies the ability to build a trust and allow them to look from their hearts at the invitation of Our Lord, I do not believe that condemnation (of which I am not qualified to do) is not witihin my ability, my only ability is to love the least of my bretheren.
You must have written this last paragraph with intense feeling, because it's a confusing mess, ending as it does with a double negative that's inconsistent with what you obviously seem to believe.
As with other samples from your writing (above), "denies the ability to build a trust" reads like feelings-obsessed New-Agism, but that would probably be "consistent" with Vatican II. Sooo, should we just delete anything from the Old & New Testaments that would distress the GLBT infidels as being, um, unwelcoming to them?  To put your beliefs into perspective, could you explain how it could be that you claim to be a "Catholic", but paradoxically "not qualified" to "condemn" a social behavior or practice that's "condemn[ed]" in the Bible?
-------
Note 0: Isn't it simply fascinating that neither "Michael_S._Rose" nor "Randy_Engel" are valid pages in Wikipedia, nor does the corresponding Wikipedia search option find pages for them (e.g.: under fuller or more formal names), to which they should be entitled as published authors of controversial books. Did Wikipedia purge them, e.g., on charges of being "purveyors of hate speech", hmmm?
Note 1: Michael S. Rose 2002: Goodbye! Good Men: How Catholic Seminaries Turned Away Two Generations of Vocations from the Priesthood. (And scared away many of the rest, I suspect, once they figured out what was going on.)
Note 2: Randy Engel 2006: The Rite of Sodomy: ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and the Roman Catholic Church[/i], vol. 1 of what seems now to be 5 vols.
Note 3: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homintern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homintern)>. It's a word (following the model of "ComIntern") that, alas, is worth being revived--never mind Wikipedia's claim that it's obsolete.
Quote from: trickster (Jul 1, 2014, 11:34 pm)I do support the dignity and quality of life for gαy people ... and that is consistent with post-Vatican II Catholic teaching ...
Teachings by whom, exactly? What's notably "consistent" with Vatican II is the ambiguity of your wording: "dignity and quality of life"? What would be the theological and practical consequences?
Well the Canadian Catholic Conference of Bishops has come out with statements (and I would have to go over their references) that while the church does not support same sex marriage, it supports the dignity of life for the GLBT community. This means that same sex couples should share the same benefits (i.e pensions, etc.).... I don't know if the American Bishops conference has said the same thing. Also, like I said I am sure that Pope Paul VI wrote a paper on it, and that would also argue the point that we - as Catholics - still believe that God loves all people and the process of conversion is the same for all of us.
I can't pretend to answer any theological consequences other than to quote Mother Theresa who said that it was not her that converted people but the Holy Spirit...I interpret that to mean that it is my job to show the gospel of Our Lord in showing love and let God do the rest. I need to be here and try and explain what it is that I believe in the original joy of the kerygma proclamation...and I do believe it is my duty to pray for people that I meet. I do not believe it is my job to condemn or judge; rather discern and be very clear on where I stand...Quote from: trickster (Jul 1, 11:34 pm, continued)I believe Pope Paul VI set out the frameworks for our church to address the reality of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity.
What "reality" is that, and what "frameworks" would those be?  I believe you'll find that the investigative authors Rose[1] and Engel[2] separately[0] identified Paul VI's time on the Throne of St. Peter as the flood tide of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity into seminaries--many more than just a handful confined to the most liberal countries or archdioceses. So many that a devout traditional Catholic heterosɛҳuąƖ male--if a man with such a combination of attributes would even be admitted nowadays to any Catholic seminary situated in a Western European culture--who believes he's called to the priesthood, must be extremely careful about choosing a seminary. Consider especially that almost every year's-worth of the U.S. Baby Boom generation (1945--1960) reached the age for choosing their initial institutions of higher learning--whether colleges or seminaries--while Paul VI was sitting as pope. And Paul VI himself openly lamented his belief that
the "smoke of Satan" had entered the Vatican, thus the Church, during that time.
While your above point is interesting and something I did not know...I don't think it is relevant to my point or your question. You asked me what framework and I mentioned only that I know that Pope Paul VI wrote some form of paper that gave guidance to the clergy on how the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ should be treated within the church. I believe the Catholic Cathechism issued by JP II clarifies my points...after all it is the catholic catechism of JP II that I am following.Quote from: trickster (Jul 1, 11:34 pm, continued)I do not believe in a hard line opposition to brothers, sisters and transgendered people,
Among traditional Catholics, "brothers" and "sisters" refer only to one's own siblings and to members of religious orders--many of whom would've taken vows of chastity--and is never used as a deferential collective term for gαys, lesbians and the transgendered abominations.
So is James the brother of Jesus according to your definition? That is an interesting use of the term brother and sister and thank you for pointing that out to me. I guess I am more liberal in the term cause siblings are people I am connected to in creation. In an indigenous context we include our extended families, adopted families and so forth.. I also use it to describe people I love of Moslem background, Buddhist and even atheist background. In showing love by showing inclusion does not mean that I agree or believe in what they believe.
Your use of language is consistent with being a troll (as Neil Obstat alerted us early on), albeit unexpectedly for the Homintern[3], from 1 of your own Web page's listed "Communities", known as the "CS Queer Home". Thus it's not merely "a bit of an insinuation here"; it's at least a tentative conclusion.
Again, I am at a loss with the use of Troll. Neil Obstat has been awesome in pointing out some sources to me and I am working through AA 1025 right now...Creation Spirituality is a gathering place for those who connect with the thinking of Rev. Dr. Matthew Fox and the notion of rebalancing Christianity in taking back its ecological roots....there are also postmodern nuns, green nuns, earth literacy theologies, liberationist (note not necessarly liberation) theologies such as queer, green, feminist and so forth that those theologians are looking at as lenses to dig deeper into the message of our faith. I enjoy thinkers and ideas, so that is why I talk to everyone. I have a great deal to learn from you and from traditional catholics because after all traditional catholics in my family include my mother, grandmother and so forth. So there is a very authentic place in me for this discussion.Quote from: trickster (Jul 1, 11:34 pm, concluded)not loving them, denies the ability to build a trust and allow them to look from their hearts at the invitation of Our Lord, I do not believe that condemnation (of which I am not qualified to do) is not witihin my ability, my only ability is to love the least of my bretheren.
You must have written this last paragraph with intense feeling, because it's a confusing mess, ending as it does with a double negative that's inconsistent with what you obviously seem to believe.
:) Well I could of been on a roll! Double negatives, get used to it my friend, my grammar is autrocious! But my meaning is sincere. You know that you do have a chance to witness to share about Jesus when someone gets to the point of trusting you. I just don't see how taking on an anti-gαy stance will get one to the point of talking. Many gαy people know me and I love them very much. Many gαy people have a relationship with God and pray and struggle with their sɛҳuąƖity as it is not easy for them. The last thing people need is to be judged, no my choice is to build trust, find common ground, have a conversation and to share, correct and nourish in a good way. But that is just my own style, it is a style not everyone will feel comfortable with...there are as many styles as people...
As with other samples from your writing (above), "denies the ability to build a trust" reads like feelings-obsessed New-Agism, but that would probably be "consistent" with Vatican II. Sooo, should we just delete anything from the Old & New Testaments that would distress the GLBT infidels as being, um, unwelcoming to them?  To put your beliefs into perspective, could you explain how it could be that you claim to be a "Catholic", but paradoxically "not qualified" to "condemn" a social behavior or practice that's "condemn[ed]" in the Bible?
Judge not that ye not be judged (Mt.7:1) . Look, there is nothing New Age about love. Jesus forgave but also said go and sin no more, did he not? Also what the church binds on earth is bound in heaven...what about the Good Samaritan who stopped for an infidel in his own culture. What about Jesus and the apostles hanging out with some pretty interesting characters, what about the fact that the apostles included a tax collector...We can all stand up on the pulpit and denounce each other and all that we do is create new lines of division. What my style is about is simply one of showing kindness, love, etc. and emotional support for people, waiting and following the Holy Spirit's lead on when to talk to someone and acknowledge and honor that person's free will to choose or not choose to be one with the Creator (thought you like that New Age jargon :) my job again is only to witness not to convert as that is a personal thing for the person him or herself. We are all in a life long process of conversion...are conversation in many ways is a process of conversion.
Anyways, I hope those are a few thoughts that I hope you reflect upon and get back to me on. Remember you and i are equal in the eyes of our Lord, so I think we should show the respect that we must have for all of our brothers and sisters in the church.
Trickster
Bruce Ferguson
-------
Note 0: Isn't it simply fascinating that neither "Michael_S._Rose" nor "Randy_Engel" are valid pages in Wikipedia, nor does the corresponding Wikipedia search option find pages for them (e.g.: under fuller or more formal names), to which they should be entitled as published authors of controversial books. Did Wikipedia purge them, e.g., on charges of being "purveyors of hate speech", hmmm?
Note 1: Michael S. Rose 2002: Goodbye! Good Men: How Catholic Seminaries Turned Away Two Generations of Vocations from the Priesthood. (And scared away many of the rest, I suspect, once they figured out what was going on.)
Note 2: Randy Engel 2006: The Rite of Sodomy: ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and the Roman Catholic Church[/i], vol. 1 of what seems now to be 5 vols.
Note 3: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homintern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homintern)>. It's a word (following the model of "ComIntern") that, alas, is worth being revived--never mind Wikipedia's claim that it's obsolete.
Quote from: AlligatorDicax (Jul 2, 2014, 11:00 am)Quote from: trickster (Jul 1, 2014, 11:34 pm)I do support the dignity and quality of life for gαy people ... and that is consistent with post-Vatican II Catholic teaching ...
Teachings by whom, exactly?
[....]
never mind Wikipedia's claim that it's obsolete.
OMG AlligatorDicax:) I will need some time to respond to your post...  I thank gyou so much for taking the time to write to me. I will have to wait till I get some time later today or tonight to go through your statements....
Quote from: PerEvangelicaDictaQuote from: LighthouseHey, Mr. Ferguson, is this you?
Matthew Fox-No thanks! (http://originalblessing.ning.com/profile/BruceFerguson)
Do you believe in Original Sin?
What's that "queer home" you sponsor?
Does it have anything to do with this picture on the site?
Sisters from Hell (http://originalblessing.ning.com/photo/vancouver-sisters-of-perpetual-indulgence?context=latest)
You need to go frolic among your own.
ruh roh.
If this is you, Mr. Ferguson, and if indeed you are in earnest pursuit of truth, charitable correction is mandated by the Father, so buckle up.
Indeed PerEvangelicals Dicta...but I think you would agree authentic correction should be based on facts...there was a bit of an insinuation here in the way Lighthouse phrased his postings....I think you will also note that I have been very open as to what I think and for sure I am open to being challenged, all of us should be ready to go out of our comfort zone. So seat belts fastened my friend..
Trickster
Bruce Ferguson
Luke 11:9
And I say to you, Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you.
Quote from: trickster (Jul 2, 2014, 12:36 pm)Quote from: AlligatorDicax (Jul 2, 2014, 11:00 am)Quote from: trickster (Jul 1, 2014, 11:34 pm)I do support the dignity and quality of life for gαy people ... and that is consistent with post-Vatican II Catholic teaching ...
Teachings by whom, exactly?
[....]
never mind Wikipedia's claim that it's obsolete.
OMG AlligatorDicax:) I will need some time to respond to your post...  I thank gyou so much for taking the time to write to me. I will have to wait till I get some time later today or tonight to go through your statements....
One way to show your thanks would be to not waste network bandwidth--nor space on Matthew's server(s)--by quoting my entire message (nor anyone else's longish message) when you've already decided that your response is not going to address any specific point that it (i.e.: any longish message) presents.
As a grammatical aside, is there some reason that you consider a period (elsewhere called a full-stop) somehow inadequate, and so use ellipses instead, thus creating ambiguity in quotations about whether some text was edited out--and by whom?  Don't you know when you're ending your own sentences?
Quote from: tricksterQuote from: PerEvangelicaDictaQuote from: LighthouseHey, Mr. Ferguson, is this you?
Matthew Fox-No thanks! (http://originalblessing.ning.com/profile/BruceFerguson)
Do you believe in Original Sin?
What's that "queer home" you sponsor?
Does it have anything to do with this picture on the site?
Sisters from Hell (http://originalblessing.ning.com/photo/vancouver-sisters-of-perpetual-indulgence?context=latest)
You need to go frolic among your own.
ruh roh.
If this is you, Mr. Ferguson, and if indeed you are in earnest pursuit of truth, charitable correction is mandated by the Father, so buckle up.
Indeed PerEvangelicals Dicta...but I think you would agree authentic correction should be based on facts...there was a bit of an insinuation here in the way Lighthouse phrased his postings....I think you will also note that I have been very open as to what I think and for sure I am open to being challenged, all of us should be ready to go out of our comfort zone. So seat belts fastened my friend..
Trickster
Bruce Ferguson
In reading your responses to all, you win the award fo most polite Cathinfo forum heretic :dancing-banana:
You seem to have been on a truth quest for many years - He will not fail you, that's what brought you here, and perhaps to other traditional Catholic resources.
Big picture-wise, "traditional" Catholicism is the fullness of Truth and the only religion. All other cults (the novus ordo included) are merely parts of truth, at best. You are intelligent enough to know that, ultimately, there can only be one Truth. By it's very definition, truth cannot be in conflict, because the law of non-contradiction is the bedrock of first principles of metaphysics. Only Catholicism holds this completely and entirely. It is magnificent in this regard!
Cults select what they want to believe in, not using natural law for objective study, so their manifestos reflect disorder and dysfunction, serving man and emotion, not God.
Thank you for your gentlemanly demeanor, Mr. Ferguson. I pray you will continue to answer His call.Quote
Luke 11:9
And I say to you, Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you.
ps. I presume there's an innocent and interesting story why you choose to use forum name "trickster", but it conveys deceit.
I am not sure how to respond to the software on this site... so
I will try and address your statements in the body of your post. I hope that will work... so let's give it a try.
yeah, my posting to your post worked... you just have to read within the quoted section your statement which will be followed by mine.
I wasn't sure how to work the software piece of this site...
but I think you will be able to follow my answers.
And in the interim, you quoted my entire posting again, despite again adding nothing substantive. It had been my only [expletives deleted] follow-up in the entire topic; don't you think my name and time-of-day would've been enough for other readers to figure out who you were responding to?Quote from: trickster (Jul 2, 2014, 1:13 pm)I am not sure how to respond to the software on this site... so
So take the time to learn. It's pretty simple, if you take the time to think about it just a little.Quote from: trickster (Jul 2, 2014, 1:13 pm)I will try and address your statements in the body of your post. I hope that will work... so let's give it a try.
[Expletives deleted] nooo!Quote from: trickster (Jul 2, 2014, 1:15 pm)yeah, my posting to your post worked... you just have to read within the quoted section your statement which will be followed by mine.
An excellent example of something that should never be done--especially in this case--desite discovering that you can do it.Quote from: trickster (Jul 2, 2014, 1:15 pm)I wasn't sure how to work the software piece of this site...
So learn how!Quote from: trickster (Jul 2, 2014, 1:15 pm)but I think you will be able to follow my answers.
Pay close attention, [expletives deleted]: I know perfectly well what I  wrote and what I  didn't write--I wrote & posted it just a few hours ago. What matters in your charging ahead in your operational ignorance to abuse the formatting features of this forum, and editing the text plainly identified as mine--i.e.: written by me only--is that by completely failing to distinguish your own remarks sentence-by-sentence, people who excerpt only that 1 posting will see my handle attached, and the words boxed in, formatting that strongly indicates that your GLBT-justifying text--with which I strongly disagree--was instead written by me. Most egregiously closest-enclosed by the box labelled "AlligatorDicax said" are words that are, in fact,your words: "Many gαy people know me and I love them very much." An abuse of posting to CathInfo to which I strongly object.
I hereby request--and will also request separately--that Matthew remove that 1:13 pm posting, pronto (to the extent consistent with his existing responsibilities), on grounds of unjustifiable "damage to reputation": mine.
I do apologize to Alligator but I hope that there is also a bit of patience for me to learn the system. Matthew, would you consider putting some kind of training video for those old guys like me that grew up before the age of internet?
You're getting a taste of 'absolute honesty' in AlligatorDicax's responses - right between the eyes (that's a compliment, AD). There are others just as direct. You have excellent instincts, in that you expressed an understanding of this style of address, as being 'very clear' vs. 'mean'. Actually it's one of the top reasons I like this forum, but there are some who take these kinds of responses personally and lash out in frustration, misundertanding the intent. That reaction shuts down civil discourse and most importantlly for this forum, edification / education aborted for argument. Pride afflicts us all.
The psychology of forums is very interesting!
Thank you so much....we really all are a work in progress,... I thiink that I have already proved that I am imperfect..:) thank you
Bruce
QuoteThank you so much....we really all are a work in progress,... I thiink that I have already proved that I am imperfect..:) thank you
Bruce
No, you really can't dodge the question that easily. You are speaking directly out of certainly modernist mindsets that say: I'm alright, you're alright--can't we all just get along?
A Catholic reaffirms that there is such a thing as right, and such a thing as wrong. God charges us all to find out as much as possible about the difference, to make a choice that has supernatural consequences, and to take action in our lives to reflect that choice. The lukewarm get spit out. Sure, human beings are imperfect, but the maps of the imperfections and the extent of the attempt to make the right choice are dire. It's not all just a shrug, and holding up your fingers in a "peace" sign.
QuoteThank you so much....we really all are a work in progress,... I thiink that I have already proved that I am imperfect..:) thank you
Bruce
No, you really can't dodge the question that easily. You are speaking directly out of certainly modernist mindsets that say: I'm alright, you're alright--can't we all just get along?
A Catholic reaffirms that there is such a thing as right, and such a thing as wrong. God charges us all to find out as much as possible about the difference, to make a choice that has supernatural consequences, and to take action in our lives to reflect that choice. The lukewarm get spit out. Sure, human beings are imperfect, but the maps of the imperfections and the extent of the attempt to make the right choice are dire. It's not all just a shrug, and holding up your fingers in a "peace" sign.
… I believe very firmly that the Holy Spirit has inspired the church to move into the 20th century. … we have made mistakes … JP II has done much to clarify those issues and unless you are up to date on the changes in our church it is not helpful to continually criticize something that might be an objectification of the other.
… I believe in taking communion by hand … I am old enough to remember what the traditional church looked liked …
… I don't believe that God [means to spark] fear and insecurity in our lives. I believe in hell; not buying the Dante concept of fire, but of eternal separation [from] our source, which would be far more painful than a life of torment. …
… I believe we need to expand our meditation … to reflect the social gospel (our brother's keeper) and the social cost of cardinal sins committed at the social level.
… no to limbo but yes to purgatory … at some point I would like to move on from explaining myself to getting into the substance and purpose of why I am on this site.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"trickster said:
… I don't believe that God [means to spark] fear and insecurity in our lives. I believe in hell; not buying the Dante concept of fire, but of eternal separation [from] our source, which would be far more painful than a life of torment. … "
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have news for you trickster, you should read the Bible instead of Dante.
Dante got his concept of fire from Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus stated that hell exists and it is a lake of fire.
I am sorry that you do not buy Jesus at His word, unfortunately in the end you will learn the truth for yourself firsthand if you do not change.
As for separation being far more painful, many people in the world, most in fact, are separated from God and seem to think little of it or anything at all.
.
Crossbro, you're doing just fine.
tickster is doing his part to help keep the viewing numbers up.
so together it all works out - except that quality viewers won't be interested
this thread could be deleted and nobody would miss it
.
Quote from: AlligatorDicax (Jul 2, 2014, 11:00 am)Quote from: trickster (Jul 1, 2014, 11:34 pm)I do support the dignity and quality of life for gαy people ... and that is consistent with post-Vatican II Catholic teaching ...
Teachings by whom, exactly? What's notably "consistent" with Vatican II is the ambiguity of your wording: "dignity and quality of life"? What would be the theological and practical consequences?
Well the Canadian Catholic Conference of Bishops has come out with statements (and I would have to go over their references) that while the church does not support same sex marriage, it supports the dignity of life for the GLBT community. This means that same sex couples should share the same benefits (i.e pensions, etc.) .... I don't know if the American Bishops conference has said the same thing. Also, like I said I am sure that Pope Paul VI wrote a paper on it, and that would also argue the point that we - as Catholics - still believe that God loves all people and the process of conversion is the same for all of us.
I can't pretend to answer any theological consequences other than to quote Mother Theresa who said that it was not her that converted people but the Holy Spirit ... I interpret that to mean that it is my job to show the gospel of Our Lord in showing love and let God do the rest. I need to be here and try and explain what it is that I believe in the original joy of the kerygma proclamation ... and I do believe it is my duty to pray for people that I meet. I do not believe it is my job to condemn or judge; rather discern and be very clear on where I stand ...Quote from: AlligatorDicax (Jul 2, 2014, 11:00 am, continued)Quote from: trickster (Jul 1, 11:34 pm, continued)I believe Pope Paul VI set out the frameworks for our church to address the reality of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity.
What "reality" is that, and what "frameworks" would those be? I believe you'll find that the investigative authors Rose[1] and Engel[2] separately[0] identified Paul VI's time on the Throne of St. Peter as the flood tide of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity into seminaries--many more than just a handful confined to the most liberal countries or archdioceses. So many that a devout traditional Catholic heterosɛҳuąƖ male--if a man with such a combination of attributes would even be admitted nowadays to any Catholic seminary situated in a Western European culture--who believes he's called to the priesthood, must be extremely careful about choosing a seminary. Consider especially that almost every year's-worth of the U.S. Baby Boom generation (1945--1960) reached the age for choosing their initial institutions of higher learning--whether colleges or seminaries--while Paul VI was sitting as pope. And Paul VI himself openly lamented his belief that the "smoke of Satan" had entered the Vatican, thus the Church, during that time.
While your above point is interesting and something I did not know ... I don't think it is relevant to my point or your question. You asked me what framework and I mentioned only that I know that Pope Paul VI wrote some form of paper that gave guidance to the clergy on how the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ should be treated within the church. I believe the Catholic Cathechism issued by JP II clarifies my points ... after all it is the catholic catechism of JP II that I am following.Quote from: AlligatorDicax (Jul 2, 2014, 11:00 am, continued)Quote from: trickster (Jul 1, 11:34 pm, continued)I do not believe in a hard line opposition to brothers, sisters
and transgendered people,
Among traditional Catholics, "brothers" and "sisters" refer only to one's own siblings and to members of religious orders--many of whom would've taken vows of chastity--and is never used as a deferential collective term for gαys, lesbians and the transgendered abominations.
So is James the brother of Jesus according to your definition? That is an interesting use of the term brother and sister and thank you for pointing that out to me. I guess I am more liberal in the term cause siblings are people I am connected to in creation. In an indigenous context we include our extended families, adopted families and so forth .. I also use it to describe people I love of Moslem background, Buddhist and even atheist background. In showing love by showing inclusion does not mean that I agree or believe in what they believe.Quote from: AlligatorDicax (Jul 2, 2014, 11:00 am, continued)Your use of language is consistent with being a troll (as Neil Obstat alerted us early on), albeit unexpectedly for the Homintern[3], from 1 of your own Web page's listed "Communities", known as the "CS Queer Home". Thus it's not merely "a bit of an insinuation here"; it's at least a tentative conclusion.
Again, I am at a loss with the use of Troll. Neil Obstat has been awesome in pointing out some sources to me and I am working through AA 1025 right now ... Creation Spirituality is a gathering place for those who connect with the thinking of Rev. Dr. Matthew Fox and the notion of rebalancing Christianity in taking back its ecological roots .... there are also postmodern nuns, green nuns, earth literacy theologies, liberationist (note not necessarly liberation) theologies such as queer, green, feminist and so forth that those theologians are looking at as lenses to dig deeper into the message of our faith. I enjoy thinkers and ideas, so that is why I talk to everyone. I have a great deal to learn from you and from traditional catholics because after all traditional catholics in my family include my mother, grandmother and so forth. So there is a very authentic place in me for this discussion.Quote from: AlligatorDicax (Jul 2, 2014, 11:00 am, continued)Quote from: trickster (Jul 1, 11:34 pm, concluded)not loving them, denies the ability to build a trust and allow them to look from their hearts at the invitation of Our Lord, I do not believe that condemnation (of which I am not qualified to do) is not witihin my ability, my only ability is to love the least of my bretheren.
You must have written this last paragraph with intense feeling, because it's a confusing mess, ending as it does with a double negative that's inconsistent with what you obviously seem to believe.
:) Well I could of been on a roll! Double negatives, get used to it my friend, my grammar is autrocious! But my meaning is sincere. You know that you do have a chance to witness to share about Jesus when someone gets to the point of trusting you. I just don't see how taking on an anti-gαy stance will get one to the point of talking. Many gαy people know me and I love them very much. Many gαy people have a relationship with God and pray and struggle with their sɛҳuąƖity as it is not easy for them. The last thing people need is to be judged, no my choice is to build trust, find common ground, have a conversation and to share, correct and nourish in a good way. But that is just my own style, it is a style not everyone will feel comfortable with ... there are as many styles as people ...Quote from: AlligatorDicax (Jul 2, 2014, 11:00 am, continued)As with other samples from your writing (above), "denies the ability to build a trust" reads like feelings-obsessed New-Agism, but that would probably be "consistent" with Vatican II. Sooo, should we just delete anything from the Old & New Testaments that would distress the GLBT infidels as being, um, unwelcoming to them? To put your beliefs into perspective, could you explain how it could be that you claim to be a "Catholic", but paradoxically "not qualified" to "condemn" a social behavior or practice that's "condemn[ed]" in the Bible?
Judge not that ye not be judged (Mt.7:1) . Look, there is nothing New Age about love. Jesus forgave but also said go and sin no more, did he not? Also what the church binds on earth is bound in heaven ... what about the Good Samaritan who stopped for an infidel in his own culture. What about Jesus and the apostles hanging out with some pretty interesting characters, what about the fact that the apostles included a tax collector ... We can all stand up on the pulpit and denounce each other and all that we do is create new lines of division. What my style is about is simply one of showing kindness, love, etc. and emotional support for people, waiting and following the Holy Spirit's lead on when to talk to someone and acknowledge and honor that person's free will to choose or not choose to be one with the Creator (thought you like that New Age jargon :) my job again is only to witness not to convert
as that is a personal thing for the person him or herself. We are all in a life long process of conversion ...areour conversation in many ways is a process of conversion.
Anyways, I hope those are a few thoughts that I hope you reflect upon and get back to me on. Remember you and i are equal in the eyes of our Lord, so I think we should show the respect that we must have for all of our brothers and sisters in the church.
Trickster
Bruce FergusonQuote from: AlligatorDicax (Jul 2, 2014, 11:00 am, concluded)-------
Note 0: Isn't it simply fascinating that neither "Michael_S._Rose" nor "Randy_Engel" are valid pages in Wikipedia, nor does the corresponding Wikipedia search option find pages for them (e.g.: under fuller or more formal names), to which they should be entitled as published authors of controversial books. Did Wikipedia purge them, e.g., on charges of being "purveyors of hate speech", hmmm?
Note 1: Michael S. Rose 2002: Goodbye! Good Men: How Catholic Seminaries Turned Away Two Generations of Vocations from the Priesthood. (And scared away many of the rest, I suspect, once they figured out what was going on.)
Note 2: Randy Engel 2006: The Rite of Sodomy: ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and the Roman Catholic Church, vol. 1 of what seems now to be 5 vols.
Note 3: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homintern>. It's a word (following the model of "ComIntern") that, alas, is worth being revived--never mind Wikipedia's claim that it's obsolete.
Hi AlligatorDiCax. Maybe you can get me up to speed, what is a troll in the context of the CathInfo site ... to me it was a mythical character hanging out under neath bridges ...
I am not sure how to respond to the software on this site ... so I will try and address your statements in the body of your post. I hope that will work ... so let's give it a try. Scroll up :)