Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Traditional Catholics  (Read 7084 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Neil Obstat

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18177
  • Reputation: +8278/-692
  • Gender: Male
Traditional Catholics
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2014, 04:41:35 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: trickster
    Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    I think Trickster is a regular poster over at Catholic Answers who has mixed loyalty.  He's officially a Catholic but also an adherent of American Indian religions and such.  I may be mistaken.


    Thank you Capt McQuigg, yes I am a regular poster at Catholic Answers and I am in enough trouble with conservatives on that site :)  I am interested in talking with everyone around the issue of the relationship between the church and indigenous peoples.  I even converse with progressive Catholics on the issue.  My interest is to learn from everyone and from there develop my understanding.


    Do you know about the Athanasian Creed?  


    Quote
    I hope that people here on Cathinfo sense my sincerety and my interest is not to debate the merits of either position but to pose questions that will help me develop my thinking on relations between the chruch, christianity in general and how it effects aboriginal Iindigenous peoples)... we had some very bad experiences with residential school abuse,


    What do you mean by "residential school" and who are "we?"


    Quote
    so my interest is more in healing and encouraging conversation that is open minded and explorative in the most authentic and honest way we as human beings are capable of.

    My brain and heart is open to all


    I would caution you to be aware that being "open to all" invites demonic possession.

    Do you know what diabolical disorientation and demonic possession are?


    Quote
    and if you read my postings on catholic answers you will see a consistency in my appraoch... i did get booted off a couple of times not so much for my own views or behaviours but more for the negative and often unkind or uncharitable responses that I am sure Jesus would not be too happy to hear...


    Did you ever notice what type of member was usually the one to have reported your posts at CAF when the mods deleted something that you had posted?


    Quote
    Anyways, I look forward to learning with you and making new friends on this site.

    Take care Capt!

    Trickster
    Real Name:  Bruce Ferguson


    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8278/-692
    • Gender: Male
    Traditional Catholics
    « Reply #16 on: June 28, 2014, 05:44:13 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: trickster
    Quote from: MarylandTrad
    Traditional Catholics support the Traditional Latin Mass and oppose the New Order of the Mass.

    Traditional Catholics know that it is of the faith that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus) and oppose the new ecuмenical/interfaith movement.


    FYI, whenever you see "EENS" here (the Latin, extra ecclesiam nulla salus means, "outside the Church there is no salvation"), you are seeing a dogma of the Faith that has been defined ex-cathedra (infallibly) on at least 3 different occasions (13th, 14th and 15th centuries) in the history of the Church, the most prominent of which were these:

    1)  “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (13th c.)

    2)  “It is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature, to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (14th c. -- "Indigenous peoples" as you say, ought to become aware of this, for their own sake.)

    3)  So important is this doctrine that no one, even if he were to pour out his blood for the name of Christ can be saved, unless he dies within the bosom of Holy Mother Church.  (15th c.)


    Quote
    Quote
    Traditional Catholics know that the Bible and the Saints taught that few are saved/majority are damned, and that universal salvation is a heresy.

    Books that vindicate the traditional Catholic movement are The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita and  Aa-1025 The Memoirs... of a Communist's Infiltration in to the Church.


    It seems to me that a great starting point for you might be the book, AA-1025: The Memoirs of an Anti-Apostle, by Marie Carre, TAN Books.  It is widely available, especially online.

    From the back cover: "...Absorbing and compelling reading from beginning to end,... must-reading for every Catholic today, and for all who would understand just what has happened to undermine the Catholic Church since the 1960's..."


    Quote
    Quote
    Papal encyclicals that vindicate the traditional Catholic movement are Pope Leo XIII Providentissimus Deus (On the study of Sacred Scripture) and Pope Pius XI Mortalium Animos (On true religious unity), among countless others.


    Any such list would be incomplete without mention of Pascendi domenici gregis (1907, St. Pius X), the landmark encyclical of the only Pope-Saint for 400 years during the 20th century.  


    Quote
    Quote
    Fake traditional Catholics are those who attend the traditional Latin Mass solely for aesthetic preferences, but don't actually oppose liberal/modernist errors that are destroying the Church and leading many souls to eternal damnation.  [/i]

    ha
    Awesome resources, thank you much MarylandTraditional....I will look those up.  Are you aware of any resources that would express what the pre-Vatican II teaching [was] on evangelism, cultural incorporation and so forth


    It had always been the Tradition of the Church to adopt what is naturally good from pagan cultures wherever the Church went in the world, but regarding evangelism, the Church seeks to preach the Gospel according to the commission of Our Lord in Scripture (cf. Mark xvi. 14f, esp. 16).


    Quote
    ...as you may know< I am old enough to remember the traditional church, I am a Vatican II generation guy, but my mother and grandmother grew up as indigenous people in the church prior to the changes.  There is so much to explore on the beauty of the church prior to the Council (as well as the last fifty years) that speak to the church's concern and care for our people.  So, yeah, if you can think of any resources that would throw light on this.. I'd appreciate.

    You have already filled my reading schedule for the next month though :)  thanks     Hope to hear a lot from you.

    Trickster
    Bruce Ferguson (Real name)


    You seem to be looking specifically for docuмents relating to the Church's teaching on how to conduct missionary activities.  

    While there may be an encyclical somewhere about that, I suspect it would be more likely to find something as an Apostolic Letter or a "Vatican statement" or perhaps a private letter, since the Holy See doesn't usually provide messages specific to a narrow audience while addressing it to the entire Church.  

    The Church has allowed wide freedom of evangelization techniques to missionaries, for they had to adopt their tactics and approach to their specific situation at all times.  

    You might like to read some of the sermons of St. Francis Xavier, who converted perhaps millions of people in India and Asia in the 16th (xvi) century.  

    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline trickster

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 259
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Traditional Catholics
    « Reply #17 on: June 28, 2014, 08:21:55 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • :)  I appreciate your humour!  Thanks for understanding.

    Bruce

    Offline Cato

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 218
    • Reputation: +93/-35
    • Gender: Male
    Traditional Catholics
    « Reply #18 on: June 29, 2014, 02:06:06 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I asked a similar question a long time ago.  I tend not to like the term Traditional Catholic.  It's like we are a subgroup or something.  The way I see it, "Traditional Catholics" are Catholics.  N.O Catholics are boarder line heretics.

    Offline Lighthouse

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 872
    • Reputation: +580/-27
    • Gender: Male
    Traditional Catholics
    « Reply #19 on: June 29, 2014, 01:00:56 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It's landlord line heretics that worry me the most.


    Offline trickster

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 259
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Traditional Catholics
    « Reply #20 on: June 29, 2014, 03:05:05 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Quote from: trickster
    Quote from: MarylandTrad
    Traditional Catholics support the Traditional Latin Mass and oppose the New Order of the Mass.

    Thank you NeilObstat for your thoughts.. I want to share my thinking on your thoughts as well to provide light to the relationship of the church in regards to evangelization of Indigenous peoples.

    Traditional Catholics know that it is of the faith that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus) and oppose the new ecuмenical/interfaith movement.


    FYI, whenever you see "EENS" here (the Latin, extra ecclesiam nulla salus means, "outside the Church there is no salvation"), you are seeing a dogma of the Faith that has been defined ex-cathedra (infallibly) on at least 3 different occasions (13th, 14th and 15th centuries) in the history of the Church, the most prominent of which were these:

    Thank you on the EENS... I have no knowledge of latin.

    1)  “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (13th c.)

    2)  “It is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature, to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (14th c. -- "Indigenous peoples" as you say, ought to become aware of this, for their own sake.)

    3)  So important is this doctrine that no one, even if he were to pour out his blood for the name of Christ can be saved, unless he dies within the bosom of Holy Mother Church.  (15th c.)

    I believe Catholics as a whole share that general goal, the question is how to gain trust in indigenous communities, the style of evangelization - even in the old church which I believe you posted indicated that the church even prior to Vatican II allowed for a great flexibility in the evangelization process so that dynamic remains important in any discussion on relationship development  ...


    Quote
    Quote
    Traditional Catholics know that the Bible and the Saints taught that few are saved/majority are damned, and that universal salvation is a heresy.

    Books that vindicate the traditional Catholic movement are The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita and  Aa-1025 The Memoirs... of a Communist's Infiltration in to the Church.


    To do with the Mason's attempt to influence catholic thinking...got it bookmarked ..thanks.

    It seems to me that a great starting point for you might be the book, AA-1025: The Memoirs of an Anti-Apostle, by Marie Carre, TAN Books.  It is widely available, especially online.

    from the fatima movement- bookmarked and online.. thanks.

    From the back cover: "...Absorbing and compelling reading from beginning to end,... must-reading for every Catholic today, and for all who would understand just what has happened to undermine the Catholic Church since the 1960's..."


    Quote
    Quote
    Papal encyclicals that vindicate the traditional Catholic movement are Pope Leo XIII Providentissimus Deus (On the study of Sacred Scripture) and Pope Pius XI Mortalium Animos (On true religious unity), among countless others.


    Neil Obstat, I am assuming the above encyclicals are broad based and that you are recommending this as a background to the movement of catholics who want to remain true to the church as it existed prior to Vatican II....would it be that one should understand the relationship of the indigenous community with the church from the context of these docuмents..or do they speak specifically of pre-Vatican II church teaching on working with our peoples?

    Any such list would be incomplete without mention of Pascendi domenici gregis (1907, St. Pius X), the landmark encyclical of the only Pope-Saint for 400 years during the 20th century.  


    Quote
    Quote
    Fake traditional Catholics are those who attend the traditional Latin Mass solely for aesthetic preferences, but don't actually oppose liberal/modernist errors that are destroying the Church and leading many souls to eternal damnation.  [/i]

    ha
    Awesome resources, thank you much MarylandTraditional....I will look those up.  Are you aware of any resources that would express what the pre-Vatican II teaching [was] on evangelism, cultural incorporation and so forth


    It had always been the Tradition of the Church to adopt what is naturally good from pagan cultures wherever the Church went in the world, but regarding evangelism, the Church seeks to preach the Gospel according to the commission of Our Lord in Scripture (cf. Mark xvi. 14f, esp. 16).


    Quote
    ...as you may know< I am old enough to remember the traditional church, I am a Vatican II generation guy, but my mother and grandmother grew up as indigenous people in the church prior to the changes.  There is so much to explore on the beauty of the church prior to the Council (as well as the last fifty years) that speak to the church's concern and care for our people.  So, yeah, if you can think of any resources that would throw light on this.. I'd appreciate.

    You have already filled my reading schedule for the next month though :)  thanks     Hope to hear a lot from you.

    Trickster
    Bruce Ferguson (Real name)


    You seem to be looking specifically for docuмents relating to the Church's teaching on how to conduct missionary activities.  

    While there may be an encyclical somewhere about that, I suspect it would be more likely to find something as an Apostolic Letter or a "Vatican statement" or perhaps a private letter, since the Holy See doesn't usually provide messages specific to a narrow audience while addressing it to the entire Church.  

    The Church has allowed wide freedom of evangelization techniques to missionaries, for they had to adopt their tactics and approach to their specific situation at all times.  

    You might like to read some of the sermons of St. Francis Xavier, who converted perhaps millions of people in India and Asia in the 16th (xvi) century.  

    .

    Offline trickster

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 259
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Traditional Catholics
    « Reply #21 on: June 29, 2014, 03:09:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Thank you NeilObstat for your resources.  I have a few clarifications to ask of you.

    1.  St. Francis Xavier.  On google I could only find resources about his life not what he has written or taught with respect to indigenous peoples.  Do you know of any sources more directly related to his teachings?

    2.  AA1025-The Memoirs....I have located on line, so I will be going through that.  

    3.  The Permanent Instructions....I could not find any sources online will continue looking for some..do you have any web addresses I could find this source for free...my library budget is limited :)

    4.  Pascendi domenici gregs  from St. Pope Pius X - I am sure I can locate.  I was wondering though if you know whether the current Vatican website contains these articles? I imagine the rest of the research will be time consuming in a labourious search of docuмents since the finding of the new world 1400s.  

    Hmmm.. maybe we can write a book on the Catholic Church's work with our people prior to Vatican II....who knows?

    Tricskter

    Bruce Ferguson

    Offline trickster

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 259
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Traditional Catholics
    « Reply #22 on: June 29, 2014, 03:10:57 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Lighthouse
    It's landlord line heretics that worry me the most.


    Landlord?  What is the reference is that a name of a writer?

    Bruce


    Offline trickster

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 259
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Traditional Catholics
    « Reply #23 on: June 29, 2014, 03:18:47 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: MarylandTrad
    Quote from: trickster
    Quote from: MarylandTrad
    Traditional Catholics support the Traditional Latin Mass and oppose the New Order of the Mass.

    Traditional Catholics know that it is of the faith that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus) and oppose the new ecuмenical/interfaith movement.

    Traditional Catholics know that the Bible and the Saints taught that few are saved/majority are damned, and that universal salvation is a heresy.

    Books that vindicate the traditional Catholic movement are The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita and  Aa-1025 The Memoirs of a Communist's Infiltration in to the Church.

    Papal encyclicals that vindicate the traditional Catholic movement are Pope Leo XIII [/i]Providentissimus Deus (On the study of Sacred Scripture) and Pope Pius XI Mortalium Animos (On true religious unity), among countless others.

    Fake traditional Catholics are those who attend the traditional Latin Mass solely for aesthetic preferences, but don't actually oppose liberal/modernist errors that are destroying the Church and leading many souls to eternal damnation.  

    ha
    Awesome resources, thank you much MarylandTraditional....I will look those up.  Are you aware of any resources that would express what the pre-Vatican II teaching on evangelism, cultural incorporation and so forth...as you may know< I am old enough to remember the traditional church, I am a Vatican II generation guy, but my mother and grandmother grew up as indigenous people in the church prior to the changes.  There is so much to explore on the beauty of the church prior to the Council (as well as the last fifty years) that speak to the church's concern and care for our people.  So, yeah, if you can think of any resources that would throw light on this.. I'd appreciate.

    You have already filled my reading schedule for the next month though :)  thanks     Hope to hear a lot from you.

    Trickster
    Bruce Ferguson (Real name)


    Hi Mr. Ferguson,

    Here is a link to an article that might be of interest to you about Ven. Antonio Margil de Jesus who converted countless Indians of Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Guatemala, and Texas. http://www.traditioninaction.org/Margil/AM003_Tape_ApostleTexas.htm

    Here is a link to another article about the North American martyrs and some of the Indians they converted http://www.traditioninaction.org/History/B_002_NAIndians_Quijano.html

    The missionary zeal of the martyrs is foreign to most modern Catholics because they no longer are aware of or believe in the necessity of being Catholic to go to heaven.

    -John



    Awesome, thank you John....

    Trickster


    Offline trickster

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 259
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Traditional Catholics
    « Reply #24 on: June 29, 2014, 03:24:34 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Quote from: trickster
    Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    I think Trickster is a regular poster over at Catholic Answers who has mixed loyalty.  He's officially a Catholic but also an adherent of American Indian religions and such.  I may be mistaken.


    Thank you Capt McQuigg, yes I am a regular poster at Catholic Answers and I am in enough trouble with conservatives on that site :)  I am interested in talking with everyone around the issue of the relationship between the church and indigenous peoples.  I even converse with progressive Catholics on the issue.  My interest is to learn from everyone and from there develop my understanding.


    Do you know about the Athanasian Creed?  

    I am aware that it exists, yes.. but have not paid much attention to it... will catch up on reading about it....could you expand on this point? Why did you make the point?  Is there much of a difference with that and the Apostles Creed, etc. and the various other creeds that found their way in the emerging early church

    Quote
    I hope that people here on Cathinfo sense my sincerety and my interest is not to debate the merits of either position but to pose questions that will help me develop my thinking on relations between the chruch, christianity in general and how it effects aboriginal Iindigenous peoples)... we had some very bad experiences with residential school abuse,


    What do you mean by "residential school" and who are "we?"


    Quote
    so my interest is more in healing and encouraging conversation that is open minded and explorative in the most authentic and honest way we as human beings are capable of.

    My brain and heart is open to all


    I would caution you to be aware that being "open to all" invites demonic possession.

    Do you know what diabolical disorientation and demonic possession are?


    Quote
    and if you read my postings on catholic answers you will see a consistency in my appraoch... i did get booted off a couple of times not so much for my own views or behaviours but more for the negative and often unkind or uncharitable responses that I am sure Jesus would not be too happy to hear...


    Did you ever notice what type of member was usually the one to have reported your posts at CAF when the mods deleted something that you had posted?


    Quote
    Anyways, I look forward to learning with you and making new friends on this site.

    Take care Capt!

    Trickster
    Real Name:  Bruce Ferguson


    .

    Offline trickster

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 259
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Traditional Catholics
    « Reply #25 on: June 29, 2014, 03:31:38 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: trickster
    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Quote from: trickster
    Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    I think Trickster is a regular poster over at Catholic Answers who has mixed loyalty.  He's officially a Catholic but also an adherent of American Indian religions and such.  I may be mistaken.


    Thank you Capt McQuigg, yes I am a regular poster at Catholic Answers and I am in enough trouble with conservatives on that site :)  I am interested in talking with everyone around the issue of the relationship between the church and indigenous peoples.  I even converse with progressive Catholics on the issue.  My interest is to learn from everyone and from there develop my understanding.


    Do you know about the Athanasian Creed?  

    I am aware that it exists, yes.. but have not paid much attention to it... will catch up on reading about it....could you expand on this point? Why did you make the point?  Is there much of a difference with that and the Apostles Creed, etc. and the various other creeds that found their way in the emerging early church

    Quote
    I hope that people here on Cathinfo sense my sincerety and my interest is not to debate the merits of either position but to pose questions that will help me develop my thinking on relations between the chruch, christianity in general and how it effects aboriginal Iindigenous peoples)... we had some very bad experiences with residential school abuse,


    What do you mean by "residential school" and who are "we?" - Yes, Residential schools in Canada were Cathollic, United Church and the Anglicans who took contracts from the Federal Canadian government to "de-indianize" the Indian by forcing the separation of children as early as 5 yrs old from their parents, transporting the children hundreds of miles a way to a residential school institution, the children were punished everytime they spoke their language, some children died and were buried secretly in the residential school property with unmarked graves, the kids were taught english, math, all the basics of the day and were always under a threat of apunishing god if they did something wrong even the reporting of sɛҳuąƖ or physical abuse at the hands of nuns, brothers or priests....this was so contratry to the notion of an interconnected creation  that  was more to the point of native sprituality that the chidren had indigenous grandparents teach them...I can share more if you are interested. ...that is where the bitterness is in our community...and the only thing our people think of when they hear Catholic is this legacy of abuse....


    Quote
    so my interest is more in healing and encouraging conversation that is open minded and explorative in the most authentic and honest way we as human beings are capable of.

    My brain and heart is open to all


    I would caution you to be aware that being "open to all" invites demonic possession.

    Do you know what diabolical disorientation and demonic possession are? We'll leave this one as we need to sit down and discuss these concepts.. but for now, I will read more about disorientation adn diabolical possesion...what is your opinion on contemporary psychiatry and psychology..that would be helpful for me to situate the background of your point above.


    Quote
    and if you read my postings on catholic answers you will see a consistency in my appraoch... i did get booted off a couple of times not so much for my own views or behaviours but more for the negative and often unkind or uncharitable responses that I am sure Jesus would not be too happy to hear...


    Did you ever notice what type of member was usually the one to have reported your posts at CAF when the mods deleted something that you had posted?

    Ah, I don't sweat the small stuff; I am not here to tell people what they want to hear or don't want to hear, I am here to learn, make friends and grow  in our faith..it is  badge of merit to get banned anyways :)  


    Quote
    Anyways, I look forward to learning with you and making new friends on this site.

    Take care Capt!

    Trickster
    Real Name:  Bruce Ferguson


    .


    Back  to you NeilObstat...thank you by the way for the resources you sent me.. I am in the process of finding them...

    Cheerz

    Bruce


    Offline trickster

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 259
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Traditional Catholics
    « Reply #26 on: June 29, 2014, 03:52:18 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: trickster
    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Quote from: trickster
    Quote from: MarylandTrad
    T

    Quote
    Quote
    T
    It had always been the Tradition of the Church to adopt what is naturally good from pagan cultures wherever the Church went in the world, but regarding evangelism, the Church seeks to preach the Gospel according to the commission of Our Lord in Scripture (cf. Mark xvi. 14f, esp. 16).

    NeilObstat, I missed commenting on the above point that the church has always accepted what is good within the pagan culture but in a manner that honours, respects and is loyal to the message of Jesus, and perhaps to the ʝʊdɛօ-christian heritage that our church has as her legacy.

    Your point is exciting cause it is the point that is the foundation of my interest in relations.  What is inherently good and bad has been portrayed in relative terms and in terms of misunderstanding by front line missionaries for so long...with the introduction of priest who were anthropologists, these misunderstandings our narrowing, so with greater understanding we can better define if you will what is inherently good in pagan culture...that makes me a pagan because I am an indigenous person ...we'll have to explore that a bit more.   The Jesuits in the pre-VAtican II church already practices a form of inculturation that put cultures in conversation with each other...so that is the exact point of which I am builiding my thinking and writing on.. .it is good to know that we have a common starting point of whcih we can work through the details as we go along.


    Quote
    ....  

    .

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1457
    • Reputation: +1383/-144
    • Gender: Female
    Traditional Catholics
    « Reply #27 on: June 29, 2014, 04:02:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • One opinion:

    Quote
    …St. Thomas distinguishes two aspects to the virtue of Faith.  The first is the interior submission of the mind and will to the revelation of God on the authority of God.  The second is the exterior manifestation of this interior assent.  Both are necessary to the virtue of Faith without which, “it is impossible to please God” (Heb. 11:6).  For as St. Paul said, “For, with the heart, we believe unto justice; but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation” (Rom. 10:9-10).  The “confession unto salvation,” the “exterior” aspect of Faith is manifested by acts of the virtue of Religion, which form the very heart of our Ecclesiastical Traditions.  
     
    Traditional Catholics and Conservative Catholics belong to the genus that believes in the internal forum all that God has revealed through His Son, Jesus Christ. They differ from one another in the external forum regarding exactly how that faith is visibly expressed.  The Conservative Catholics hold that the Ecclesiastical Traditions by which the faith is visibly manifested in the external forum are purely accidental elements governed solely as matters of Church discipline and subject to the free and independent will of the legislator to which every Catholic is obliged to obey.  
     
    The Traditional Catholics reject this position and hold that the ecclesiastical traditions are an essential and integral component of our faith being wholly consonant with and the perfect outward expression of our internal belief which we are morally obliged to profess as our duty to God and thus they cannot be purely a matter of Church discipline.  Further, Traditional Catholics recognize that for Obedience to be a virtue, it must be subject to and governed by the virtue of Religion which is the principle subsidiary virtue of the moral virtue of Justice.  Traditional Catholics deny that any authority of whatever rank can validly be used against the virtue of Religion…
    http://www.saintspeterandpaulrcm.com/OPEN%20LETTERS/REMNANT%20REPLY%20%2008%20WEB%20DRAFT.htm

    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1297
    • Reputation: +603/-63
    • Gender: Male
      • TraditionalCatholic.net
    Traditional Catholics
    « Reply #28 on: June 29, 2014, 04:23:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: trickster
    I am very curious about the term Traditional Catholics...


    When I created http://TraditionalCatholic.net near fifteen years ago, I choose the name "Traditional" to differentiate myself from the "Modern" Catholic thought and practice.  I would not have had to utilize the adjective "Traditional" to describe what had always been Catholic if the "Modern" church had not falsely labeled their apostate belief and practice as "Catholic".  So, simple stated, Traditional Catholic is what has always been understood as Catholic, and the "Novus Ordo", as they are known, is something other than what has always been Catholic (even though they use the name "Catholic" to describe their modernized theology).
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1297
    • Reputation: +603/-63
    • Gender: Male
      • TraditionalCatholic.net
    Traditional Catholics
    « Reply #29 on: June 29, 2014, 04:34:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • In other words...

    The patients have seized control of the hospital, so despite a sign on the building that reads Bellevue Hospital, there are no doctors inside.
    Omnes pro Christo