Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Thuc: Heel or Hero  (Read 18039 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Belloc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6600
  • Reputation: +615/-5
  • Gender: Male
Thuc: Heel or Hero
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2010, 10:43:14 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Trinity
    You are probably right, Veritatis, especially in the early years after V II when everyone was confused and making mistakes.  Thuc was a thorough Catholic and given the choice between obedience and rebellion, it's easy to see which way he would go.  Obedience worked for all the saints down the centuries.

    But for me, he is one of my heroes.  He saw his family dessimated, his see stolen and he was kicked from pillar to post.  On top of that he was villified.  I could never maintain silence through all that as he did.   For this I admire him, but I say it is a good thing God didn't give me that cross.  I have far too big a mouth.  

    There is no proof that he was killed, so he may not have been a black martyr.  But he was surely a white martyr.


    what of the allegations he celebrated the NO, with P6? false? true?
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Alexandria

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2677
    • Reputation: +485/-122
    • Gender: Female
    Thuc: Heel or Hero
    « Reply #16 on: June 22, 2010, 11:26:21 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Raoul76
    Alexandria said:
    Quote
    My personal opinion is that he hated Paul VI in particular and the Church in general so much for what they did to him and his family that he did what he did purposely to add further chaos and confusion.


    That's a new one.


    Yes, I know.  I am surprised that no one has considered this.


    Offline Alexandria

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2677
    • Reputation: +485/-122
    • Gender: Female
    Thuc: Heel or Hero
    « Reply #17 on: June 22, 2010, 11:28:13 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Vladimir
    I'm just going to say that my biased opinion (being fully Vietnamese and traditional Roman Catholic) is that Archbishop Thuc was one of the greatest heroes that Viet Nam has ever brought forth.


    I don't think anyone would ever deny that, Vlad.

    Tell me, what is the "scoop" about him there?  What do your people say about him and what he did?  The Vietnamese, of all people, would know the truth.

    Offline Alexandria

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2677
    • Reputation: +485/-122
    • Gender: Female
    Thuc: Heel or Hero
    « Reply #18 on: June 22, 2010, 11:31:11 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Belloc
    Quote from: Alexandria
    I've done extensive reading on Thuc.

    My personal opinion is that he hated Paul VI in particular and the Church in general so much for what they did to him and his family that he did what he did purposely to add further chaos and confusion.

    I also think that he was quite traumatized by everything that happened.  In short, he really wasn't playing with a full deck.  Not that he was insane, but that his judgment and reason were severely clouded by the events in his life.


    Probably was pissed off at Kennedy and Co., they helped engineer the coup against his family.....though the USA has  no problems before or since supporting corrupt regime's.....


    That is correct.  Have you ever read Warren Carroll's Seventy Years of the Communist Revolution?  I think it's the hardest book I ever had to plow through.  It's very hard to get and, when you do find a copy, it is quite expensive.  Anyway, he goes into that in the book.  The wonderful USA did a real dirty deal.  I often wonder how these men can even look at themselves in the mirror without hating everything they are.

    Offline Trinity

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3233
    • Reputation: +190/-0
    • Gender: Female
    Thuc: Heel or Hero
    « Reply #19 on: June 22, 2010, 11:49:21 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Things may not have been as clear sailing for Bishop Thuc as people seem to think.  Check this out:

    http://catholic.shrineofsaintjude.net/homec081.html
    +RIP
    Please pray for the repose of her soul.


    Offline Trinity

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3233
    • Reputation: +190/-0
    • Gender: Female
    Thuc: Heel or Hero
    « Reply #20 on: June 22, 2010, 06:53:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Corona Spinarum
    A Biography and defense of Archbishop Pierre-Martin Ngo-Dinh-Thuc
    Introduction
    Pierre-Martin Ngo-Dinh-Thuc is an object of great polemic within the Catholic Traditional movement. By some he is ridiculed as a doddering old prelate consecrating anything that moved a bishop. For others, he is an unqualified saint without blemish. As St Thomas wisely observes, virtue stands in the middle, and the facts concerning the life of this Archbishop are no exception.

    It is difficult to peel back the layers of vitriolic diatribe that have silted up these past two decades to reveal the true Archbishop. What we find, is a fallen, broken and rejected man, a man whose life began in glory and faded out in ignominy.

    This was a man acquainted with opprobrium – the figure of the dumb lamb is played out here.

    In a world turned upside down, and finding himself upon the streets, one lonely man is sought out for the only thing he has left – the power of ordination – the episcopacy. Thieves and scoundrels of all kinds, and, as the adage goes – a few good men and true come to visit him.

    In the imagination of his mind’s eye, he sees the church rebuilt, a seminary, a world restored – he is important again !

    What countless lines have been written about this man, a man forgotten in his day but no longer so as the years pass. Through him, and in a sense despite himself, the Church continues through his hands. Through whatever good he has done, may his errors be reduced.

    In imitation of his master, even in this life, he learned the message of the Savior who declared that his were they who carried a Cross.

    As he passed from us, he left as he had lived with a crown of thorns.

    Chapter One - From the Cradle to the Council
    Archbishop Peter-Martin Ngo Dinh Thuc was born at Hue, on October 6, 1897, of profoundly Catholic parents. His father had wished to be a priest, and had undertaken studies with this end in view.

    His mother, born of a petite bourgeoisie family in Quang-ngai (south Vietnam) was considered to be a saint by her confessor. During a very prolonged illness from which she died, she inspired the adoration of all who knew her.

    His father, Ngo Dinh Kha, was an excellent Latinist and worked very hard to introduce French into Central Vietnam. After having been the preceptor to the young king Thant Thai, and then Minister of the Imperial Household, he fell into disgrace because he refused to vote against his sovereign.

    As a young man Thuc had entered the junior seminary in Anninh at the age of 12. He spent 8 years there before going on to study philosophy at the major seminary in Hue. After his ordination, December 20, 1925, he taught at the Sorbonne in Paris. He was then selected to study theology in Rome and returned to his country in 1927 after being awarded three doctorates, one in philosophy, one in theology, and the third in canon law from the Gregorian.

    His bishop successively nominated him to the rank of professor at the College of Vietnamese Brothers in Hue, a professor at the Major Seminary in Hue, and Dean of the College of Providence.

    In 1938, at the age of 41, he was chosen by Rome to direct the Apostolic Vicariate at Vinhlong. He was appointed as the titular bishop of Sesina on January 8, and was consecrated on May 4, 1938 by Mgr Dumortier, Apostolic Vicar of Saigon. He took as his episcopal symbol "Miles Christi -Soldier of Christ." He was the third Vietnamese priest raised to the Episcopate. A pastor to his flock

    The new pastor immediately dedicated himself to the organization of his Vicariate.

    Given the reverses that Christianity was sustaining in this part of the world, Pope Pius XI, understood the urgency of opening a Catholic university in South Vietnam for the formation of Christians of the former French protectorate. The Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith informed the local bishops of the Pontiff's heart-felt desire and further informed them that the Holy Father wished that one of the official languages of this University should be French in order that the ancient proteges of France, the Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians could all go there for their formation. The local bishops designated Bishop Martin Ngo Dinh Thuc as the person who could best accomplish the wishes of the Holy Father.

    Where could the necessary funds for such an enterprise be found in a country engaged in a subversive war? Apart from the blessing of the Pope and the bishop of Vinhlong, all he had was a good will. This is hardly enough to establish a University, even in a mission country. Without being discouraged, the good bishop set to work. Thanks to the support he was able to count on, he was granted by the government of Diem, the authority to exploit an ancient forest. Thus, it was by his own industry, his efforts and his tenacity, that Bishop Ngo rapidly accuмulated all the necessary funds to bring the task he had undertaken to completion, thus fulfilling the desire of the Pope and providing his country with a Catholic university. One last detail worthy of being underlined: by means of his industry, disinterest and foresight he provided this university with sufficient income to guarantee its ability to persist as an independent enterprise.

    On November 24, 1960, John XXIII, who succeeded Pius XII, transferred the Apostolic Vicarage of Vinhlong to the head of the Metropolitan See at Hue, the city where Bishop Ngo was born. He was named Archbishop of Hue and Assistant to the Pontifical Throne.

    Casualties of the Vietnamese Communist Takeover November 1 1963

    Thuc's elder brother, Ngo Dinh Khoi, was an excellent Christian. Because of his refusal to become a minister in the first communist government, he, along with his son, was buried alive.

    The three other children of Ngo Dinh Kha are Diem, the father of the Vietnamese Republic, Nhu and Can, his close collaborators. They were αssαssιnαtҽd. After having received Holy Communion on All Soul's Day, 1963, Diem, who in 1955 had become president of South Vietnam, was αssαssιnαtҽd with his brother Nhu as they left St. Francis Xavier Church in Saigon. These men both knew that the Communion that they had just received was to be their last, and thus they did not hesitate in meeting what they knew to be their certain fate.

    Ngo Dinh Can was not with his older brothers at the time they were murdered. He was successful in hiding himself in a shelter provided by the Redemptorist Fathers in Hue. He was betrayed and delivered into the hands of rebellious generals. Before executing him, the communists imprisoned him in a cage for over a year. He was, despite this, able to receive holy communion every day, thanks to the devotion of a Vietnamese Redemptorist Father. He died very courageously with the rosary in his hand.

    Of all the children of Ngo Dinh Kha, only two were able to escape annihilation, Ngo Dinh Luyen and Ngo Dinh Thuc. The first who had graduated from the Central School for Engineers in Paris was at the time ambassador in London. Thuc narrowly escaped the same fate. A few days prior to the assassinations in Saigon Thuc had been ordered to Rome to attend the Second Vatican Council. He had hesitated in attending the sessions of the Council earlier because he knew that once he left his country he would most likely never return. Such was the case.

    After the Council, Archbishop Thuc found himself unable to return to his duties in his diocese. For him a life of exile now began. He later wrote of this in his autobiography (Misericordias Domini) in the following words: "Here began my Via Crucis - in which the Good God indicated to me the turning point of my life"

    The Nature of Archbishop Thuc's Powers

    An important issue needs to be raised here. It is often objected that the "Thuc" consecrations are illicit (i.e. contrary to the law of the Church). This is because, if any bishop consecrates another bishop without papal permission, they receive an excommunication reserved to the Holy See. In Archbishop Thuc's case, this is not so. Pius XI had conceded special powers to Thuc to perform consecrations without referring to Rome for approval (powers we should point out which were never revoked). In 1987 the traditionalist publication "Sous la Bannière" published the text of this "Motu Proprio":


    Translation of the Latin Original (right:)

    By virtue of the Plenitude of the powers of the Holy Apostolic See, we appoint as our Legate Pierre Martin Ngo Dinh Thuc, titu lar bishop of Saigon, whom we invest with all the necessary pow ers, for purposes known to us. Given at Rome at Saint Peter's, on 15 March 1938, the seventeenth year of our pontificate. Pope Pius XI,

    Explanation of these powers

    What does this docuмent mean ? Let us examine a parallel case in which Pius XI conceded identical pwoers to another prelate. On 10 March 1920, the same pope Pius XI dictated the same motu proprio for Mgr d'Herbigny (S.J.). The account is recorded in the book of Father Paul Lesourd, published by Lethielleux Editions under the title "Le Jesuite clandestine"

    Here is the translation: Motu Proprio By virtue of the plenitude of the Apostolic power, we appoint as our Delegate Michel d'Herbigngy (S.J.), titular bishop of Troie, whom we invest with all the appropriate and necessary powers, for purposes known to us. Given at Rome at Saint Peter's, on 10 March 1926, the fifth year of our pontificate. Pius XI, Pope

    The two cases are analogous. With this Act of the Holy See, the two bishops received pontifical powers, those of Patriarchs. The details of these powers are explained by Pius XI himself, as reported by Father Lesourd in the following terms: "Orally, the Holy Father first enumerated in detail all the powers which he conferred, including the selection of priests to be or dained and to confer on them the epicopate without the need for them to have pontifical bulls, nor therefore to give their signa tures inviting them to act accordingly on the strength of the oath.

    "Then, after having at length set out in detail by word of mouth all the powers which were really extraordinary, the Pope resumed them most solemnly as follows:

    "In one word, we grant to you all the pontifical powers of the Pope himself, which are not of incommunicable divine right."

    Chapter Two - The Wilderness Years
    After the Council had finished, like bishops from every country, those from South Vietnam returned to their own dioceses. However the Archbishop of Hue was unable to obtain permission to return to his See. In his Autobiography Archbishop Ngo informs us that "The Americans forced the Government of South Vietnam to refuse me permission to return."

    He then approached Paul VI, thinking that he would in this way obtain the necessary authorization. Did Montini intervene? Once again, the Archbishop tells us in his autobiography that on February 17, 1968: "Paul VI used my inability to return to my See to force me to resign and to name as my replacement one of his favorites, Bishop Dien." From that time forward he led an uprooted life.

    The Archbishop was not the kind of person who could remain idle, and before concerning himself with his own needs, this man who spoke fluent Italian looked in Italy for some ministry. He wished to be useful and to support himself in a decent manner. But he who no longer belonged to any diocese was also a stranger in the House of his Mother.

    Thanks to a prelate who had been apostolic delegate in Vietnam, Archbishop Ngo was able to find food and lodging in a reception center in Rome, but he had to pay a fee for this. In order to obtain the funds to do this, he offered his services to a cure in the parish. This priest was only too happy to accept his offer ... and to exploit him.

    Despite his priestly efforts he was unable to earn enough to pay his bill at the Reception Center. Archbishop Ngo asked the cure to provide him with an empty room at the vicarage, but the cure refused. He was jealous of the Bishop who because of his kindness and availability ended up seeing his confessional besieged by all the penitents that formerly went to the cure. Despite everything he did, he could not help but antagonize the head of the parish who became increasingly unpleasant, and thisto such a degree that the Archbishop finally had to leave.

    As he had previously known Dom Nivardo Buttarazzi, the Reverend Abbot of the Monastery of Casamari in the center of Italy, the ancient Archbishop went and knocked at his door. He was received as a brother and given a room in the guest house. For about one and a half years the Archbishop stayed there contentedly. He made himself useful by confessing the faithful of the parish which was dependent on the Abbey and the monks who came to him. Unfortunately, one day, these religious decided to organize an exhibition of nudes in the library of the Monastery. The Bishop showed his disapproval with the greatest of discretion. But this was more than they could accept and they asked him to leave the place as soon as he could make other arrangements.

    Where could he go? The local bishop who had made his sympathies known to the Archbishop on several occasions, asked him to preside over certain ceremonies and to share his meals. The Archbishop then went to the bishop's house. He begged his confrere to give him a small church that had no priest where he could serve, provided that it had a sacristy where he could place a bed and stay.

    The Bishop was agreeable and appointed him to the village of Arpino which consisted of a dozen families. The titular priest was happy to accept the assistance which Providence had provided him through the bishop. "I was happy to stay there with the small flock over which I was the secondary shepherd,"he tells us in his biography, and I thought that Arpino would be my last resting place in this world."

    Chapter Three - The "Palmarian" Affair
    Palmar de Troya a place not far from Seville in Spain was the site of supposed "apparitions" of the Virgin in the late 1960s and the 1970s. The "messages", were particularly anti-modernist in nature, and warned the faithful against the New Mass and the Conciliar reforms. The visionary and founder of the sect, one Clemente Dominguez Gomez staged mock ecstasies and received the "stigmata" of Our Lord (photographs of the liberal application of ketchup to his torso exist).

    The Lefebvre Connection

    It was thanks to the intervention of another luminary of the Traditional movement, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, that the whole debacle began. Fr Noel Barbara, relates he heard this from Lefebvre's own lips at table one day at the seminary in Econe.

    "Archbishop Lefebvre knew Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc quite well from the Second Vatican Council. He considered him to be a bishop with good doctrinal views. Like himself, this bishop belonged to the conservative group. It was because he considered him to be a Catholic bishop, committed to the faith, devoted to Mary, and having nothing to do, that he encouraged him to work with the emissaries of Palmar de Troya who had come to Econe in order to solicit his episcopal services. I heard these facts directly from Archbishop Lefebvre.

    "One day a canon of Saint Maurice named Father Revaz arrived at the seminary in Econe. He was accompanied by a priest who spoke English. A lover of the extraordinary, both had come from the location of the Apparitions. They came straight from Palmar to beg Archbishop Lefebvre to come to this location immediately because the Blessed Virgin was waiting for him. She was insisting that a Catholic bishop come in order to confer the episcopacy on those she planned to designate.

    The Archbishop excused himself and advised them to "approach Archbishop Thuc. He is orthodox and he is not at present occupied. Go and seek him out. He will most certainly agree with your request." The two messengers immediately left and had no difficulty in convincing the elderly Vietnamese Archbishop to respond to the Virgin's request."

    Indeed Fr Cekada recalls the events as follows in his article the "Validity of the Thuc Consecrations": "His (Thuc's) interest in the traditional movement appears to have begun in early 1975 when he visited Abp. Lefebvre's seminary in Econe, Switzerland. The event would turn out to be a mixed blessing. There Abp. Thuc struck up an acquaintance with Father M. Revaz, former Chancellor of the Swiss Diocese of Sion and professor of Canon Law at the Econe seminary. Later in 1975, Father Revaz convinced Abp. Thuc that the solution to the Church's problems were to be found in alleged "Marian apparitions" at Palmar de Troya, Spain, and he urged the Archbishop to consecrate bishops for the Palmar supporters, who wished to preserve the traditional Mass. Abp. Thuc agreed and performed the consecrations in December. The next year, however, Abp. Thuc repudiated his connections with the Palmar group."

    Archbishop Thuc also refers to the episode in his autobiography:

    "At that time a priest came to me who I had formerly known in Econe, Switzerland. He said to me point-blank: "Your Excellency, the Holy Virgin has sent me to bring you at once to Spain in order to render her a service. My car is waiting for you at the door of the presbytery and we will leave immediately so as to reach there by Christmas." Thrilled by this invitation, I said to him: "If it is a service demanded by the Holy Virgin, I am ready to follow you to the end of the world."

    On January 11 1976 the Archbishop elevated Gomez and four others to the episcopacy after having first ordained them priest several weeks earlier

     

    Having been immediately "excommunicated" by Paul VI for his actions, Archbishop Thuc promptly broke with Palmar. Clemente and Co. proceeded to perform mass ordinations and consecrations setting up a parallel church.

    Upon the death of Paul VI, (whom they consider to have been a saint) Gomez claimed to have been mystically crowned “Pope” in a jail only hours after the death news reached him. Upon his return to Spain, the mystical crowning became “reality”.

    Chapter Four - In Perils of false brethren
    After the Palmar fiasco, Archbishop Thuc moved to Toulon in southern France where he lived in extreme poverty. Fr Barbara who visited him twice there in the early 1980s describes the scene

    “I personally never knew the Vietnamese Archbishop before the time of my two visits to his residence at 22 rue Garibaldi, Toulon, in the district of Var, in France.

    The first time was in March of 1981 when I went to ask him about a Father Garcia who wished to work with me and claimed to have been ordained by Archbishop Ngo.

    The second time was on January 7, 1982, at which time I was ac companied by Father Barthe, an elderly priest connected with the association "Union pour la Fidelity." We had asked for a meeting because a Mexican priest friend had come and told us about the episcopal consecration of R. P. Guerard des Lauriers and Fathers Carmona and Zamora. We were desirous of having some infor mation about their consecrations.

    We arranged a meeting by telephone for Monday, the 5th. of January. Arriving at Toulon, we presented ourselves at his home at 8 o'clock in the morning. "The Archbishop lived in a very poor and dirty apartment on the first floor of an old tenement building. In appearance, it was a simple flat that was longer than wide, with a small side kitchen. On the right was a modest bed. In the corner was a table on which he celebrated the traditional rite as codified by Saint Pius V every morning. There were many pious images, a pile of "pocket books," two chairs and five cats that appeared to be eve rywhere. As he only had two chairs, the Archbishop sat on his bed and Father Barbara sat opposite him. The room was so small that Father Barthe had to place his chair behind the Archbishop.

    "Archbishop Thuc informed us that he celebrated Mass in his apartment early every morning, and always in the traditional rite

    During the period from 1977 – 1981 Archbishop Thuc is alleged to have consecrated various individuals of dubious character. Most seem to have been false, and certainly the modern church in declaring his excommunication a second time in 1982, is content with treating of only those consecrations of Catholic priests ordained within the Roman Church before the Council.

    In 1977, he re-consecrated sub conditione, in secret, Jean Laborie of Toulouse. An Old Catholic and the recipient of multiple consecrations beforehand. He also ordained a certain Garcia of Marseilles although Thuc refused to consecrate him as Fr Barbara relates:

    "Archbishop Thuc informed us that he regretted having done so, because he had come to know that the Father in question was mentally unbalanced. "He wished me to consecrate him a bishop. I refused. But," he added, "why does everyone wish to be a bishop?"

    Several years later he entered into contact with a Traditionalist group in Munich which introduced him to Fr Guérard des Lauriers, O. P.

    Archbishop Thuc was personally convinced of the vacancy of the Apostolic See. It was precisely upon this condition that Fr Guérard accepted episcopal consecration on May 7 1981. On October 17, 1981, he consecrated two Mexican traditional priests: Bishop Carmona who was parish priest of Acapulco and Bishop Zamora.

    Fr Barbara testifies to the veracity of these claims from his interview which we have been citing: "Father then explained to him the reason for our visit. A Mexican friend, Father Marquette, had informed us that he had consecrated the cure of Acapulco, Father Moses Carmona, and another Mexican, Father Zamora. The Archbishop admitted that such was the case. I didn't know them. There were two Germans, Heller and Hiller, who brought them to me and asked that I consecrate them. I had confidence in these two gentlemen because I knew Mr. Heller. He is a very fine person. I knew him because he asked me to confirm his little daughter and I had confirmed her. These Germans are very generous. The two Mexican priests were consecrated here. I was able to speak with them in Latin. Father Carmona spoke much better Latin than did Father Zamora. The two Germans assisted. They had brought along everything that was necessary for the consecration. During the ceremony, they held the candles.

    "Father Barbara then explained that we had also learned from Mexico that he had consecrated Father R. P. Guerard des Lauriers, O.P. - "The Dominican?" - "Yes" - "It is true. I did indeed consecrate him. He is very knowledge able." He then went on to explain that it was Father des Lauriers who had himself come and asked to be consecrated. The Germans supported his request.

    HIS COMPROMISE WITH THE VARIOUS SECTS
    This piece of testimony from Fr Barbara is of the greatest importance:

    "Evaluation. Archbishop Ngo Din Thuc appeared to us as a poor, simple, but good person. He did not seem to have understood the crisis the Church had faced subsequent to Vatican II. Also, per haps he was unwilling to see that some individuals were imposing on his goodness. Beyond this, he gave us the impression that matters of licitness were not very important for him."

    It shows two things: firstly, Archbishop Thuc was quite clearly in possession of his faculties, simplicity must not be mistaken for insanity as we shall see later in appendix 1. Secondly, his answer to the crisis of Vatican II – was in character – overly simplistic. He evidently saw the problem as being hierarchical in nature – the hierarchy had defaulted in their duty – he by consecrating bishops would assure the Apostolic Succession in the Church. This says volumes of his ability to distinguish between good and bad candidates for the episcopacy. Clearly the Archbishop is guilty of error – in judgement not in intention.

    THE INDIVIDUALS CONSECRATED
    Even when valid, an Episcopal Consecration does not have the power to reconcile anyone with the Church who knowingly had separated himself from it. We should not forget that the absence of Authority hinders the reconciliation of repentant heretics and schismatics IN THE EXTERNAL FORUM. Therefore, when it comes to bishops consecrated by Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc, or those consecrated by bishops whom he consecrated, it is necessary to DISTINGUISH IN AN ABSOLUTE MANNER BETWEEN:

    1 - Catholic priests that have asked for the Episcopacy or have been willing to be consecrated in order to serve the Church and to preserve the Catholic priesthood which is the source of the sacramental life.

    Those who were Catholic priests before their consecration have become Catholic bishops after their consecration to the same degree as have those bishops consecrated by Archbishop Lefebvre.

    2 - The others. All those who have profited from the crisis of the Church and from the good will of the elderly Archbishop to obtain valid Sacerdotal or Episcopal Consecration,

    Subsequent to the affair of Palmar de Troya, the only Catholic priests that were consecrated by Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc were Father Guerard des Lauriers, O.P and Fathers Carmona and Adolfo Zamora. Unfortunately the three have passed away, but they have passed on the Episcopate to:

    - BISHOP GUERARD DES LAURIERS to Fathers Gunther Storck (now deceased), and Robert McKenna, O.P.

    - BISHOP MOISES CARMONA to Fathers George Musey (now deceased), Benigno Bravo (now deceased), Roberto Martinez and Mark Pivarunas.

    Chapter Five - The Munich Declaration
    Before asking Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc for consecration, Father R. P. Guerard des Lauriers explained the "Thesis of Cassiciacuм" to him. It was only after the Archbishop gave him the assurance that he also held to such a position was the consecration of the Dominican Father decided on.

    Nor was Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc only willing to declare this vacancy of the Holy See privately. As much as he could he made his position clear in the public forum.

    The official letter of excommunication (second time) (Prot. N. 7/76) from Rome dated February 1, 1983 and addressed to His Excellency Archbishop Pierre-Martin Ngo Dinh Thuc, the titular Archbishop of Bulla Regia, from “Cardinal” Joseph Ratzinger, the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, it is explicitly mentioned that: "A public declaration published in Munich on February 25, 1982 under your own signature affirms that according to you, `THE SEE OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH IS AT THIS TIME VACANT,' and that it is necessary for you `AS A BISHOP TO DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN IN ORDER THAT THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH CAN CONTINUE TO GUIDE SOULS TO THEIR ETERNAL SALVATION'." (Review "Einsicht," March 1982, page 8).

    This Declaration is of the greatest possible importance with regard to what we are discussing. It manifests the primary condition which would allow Archbishop Thuc to presume an Apostolic Mandate, a condition without which he could not use the principal of Epikeia. The consecrations performed under such circuмstances are not only perfectly valid, but also perfectly licit.

    DECLARATION
    WHAT DOES TODAY'S CATHOLIC CHURCH LOOK LIKE ? AT ROME "POPE" JOHN PAUL II REIGNS SURROUNDED BY CARDINALS AND MANY BISHOPS AND PRELATES, OUTSIDE ROME THE CATHOLIC CHURCH LOOKS FLOURISHING WITH HER BISHOPS AND PRIESTS. THE NUMBER OF CATHOLICS IS IMMENSE, EVERY DAY MASS IS CELEBRATED IN SO MANY CHURCHES. SUNDAYS THE CHURCHES RECEIVE MANY FAITHFUL FOR HEARING MASS AND RECEIVING HOLY COMMUNION.

    BUT IN THE SIGHT OF OUR LORD, WHAT DOES TODAY'S CHURCH LOOK LIKE? THESE WEEKDAY AND SUNDAY MASSES - DO THEY PLEASE OUR LORD? NOT AT ALL BECAUSE THIS MASS IS THE SAME ONE FOR CATHOLICS AND PROTESTANTS - THAT IS WHY THIS MASS DOES NOT PLEASE OUR LORD AND IS INVALID. THE ONLY MASS THAT PLEASES OUR LORD IS THE MASS OF SAINT PIUS V, WHICH IS CELEBRATED BY ONLY A FEW PRIESTS AND BISHOPS. I MYSELF BELONG TO THEM.

    THAT IS WHY I WANT - IF POSSIBLE - TO OPEN A SEMINARY FOR CANDIDATES FOR THE PRIESTHOOD, WHICH PLEASES OUR LORD.

    BESIDES THIS 'MASS', WHICH DOES NOT PLEASE OUR LORD ARE MANY THINGS, WHICH ARE REJECTED BY GOD, FOR EXAMPLE THE NEW RITES OF ORDINATION OF PRIESTS, CONSECRATION OF BISHOPS, CONFIRMATION AND EXTREME UNCTION.

    MOREOVER THESE "PRIESTS' APPLY THEMSELVES TO: 1) MODERNISM, 2) FALSE EcuмENISM, 3) WORSHIP OF MEN, 4) LIBERTY OF RELIGION; 5) THEY REFUSE TO CONDEMN THE AUTHORS OF HERESIES AND TO EXPEL THE HERETICS.

    AS A BISHOP OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH I JUDGE THE SEE OF ROME TO BE VACANT AND IT IS MY DUTY, TO DO EVERYTHING TO ASSURE THE PRESERVATION OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH FOR THE ETERNAL SALVATION OF SOULS.

    MUNICH, 25TH FEBRUARY 1982

    Chapter Six - Raising the Fallen Standard
    His closing years

    After the events in Munich, Archbishop Thuc returned to France where he consecrated Bishop Datessen on September 25, 1982 and then a short while afterwards he departed for the United States at the invitation of Bishop Louis Vezelis in whose monastery he took up residence.

    At this point the story becomes confusing. It is alleged (by the Vezelis group in particular) that the Archbishop was abducted by a Vatican II Vietnamese group while in New York and was taken to Missouri and hidden away from the contact of his friends. There he was subsequently held incommunicado by Vatican II priests. (There are even tales of FBI investigations as well).

    Like his Divine Master in all things, Archbishop Thuc died in exile and under uncertain circuмstances while here in the United States. After being kidnapped Worn out with fatigue and the harassment of his Modernist captors, Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc died December 13, 1984

    The Vatican II establishment church waited until after the Archbishop's death to announce that he had "recanted" his errors, repented of his actions, and called upon those he had consecrated to return to the "unity of the Church."

    Fortunately, however, amongst the myriad of pretenders to the episcopacy, two of his progeny survived him and continued the work of entrusting the Apostolic Succession to men of worth.

    1983 Declaration of Archbishop Thuc made together with Bishop Carmona

    The following was issued jointly with the Mexican bishops (he had consecrated) on May 26, 1983:

    "The Roman Catholic Bishops, united with His Excellency Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc, declare: That we support him in his valiant public declaration made regarding the vacancy of the Apostolic See and the invalidity and illicitness of the New Mass. We hold with him that the Apostolic See has been vacant since the death of Pope Pius XII by virtue of the fact that those who were elected to succeed him did not possess the canonical qualifications necessary to be legitimate candidates for the Papacy.

    "...Based upon the Bull cuм Ex Apostolatus Officio of His Holiness Pope Paul IV, we hold that Angelo Roncalli was never a legitimate Pope and that his acts are completely null and void,

    "We declare that the New 'Mass' is invalid.... We declare that the introduction of this New 'Mass' also signals the promulgation of a new humanistic religion in which Almighty God is no longer worshipped as He desires to be worshipped... Those who have accepted this New 'Mass' have, in reality and without taking notice of it, apostatized from the true Faith; they have separated themselves from the true Church and are in danger of losing their souls, because outside the Church founded by Jesus Christ no one can be saved. For this reason, we invite the faithful to return to their Faith from which they have strayed.

    "We reject the heretical Decree on Religious Freedom which places the divinely revealed religion on an equality with false religions. This decree is a clear and evident sign of the denial of our holy traditions by the apostate and schismatic hierarchy.

    "We declare that no one can oblige us to separate ourselves from the true Church, from that Church instituted by Christ Himself and which is destined to last until the consummation of the world just as He instituted it.... We give thanks to God for the integrity of our Faith and we beseech His grace that we may be able to persevere in it. We pray for those who have lost this Faith by accepting the heretical changes that have given rise to a new Church and to a new religion."



     
    +RIP
    Please pray for the repose of her soul.

    Offline Trinity

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3233
    • Reputation: +190/-0
    • Gender: Female
    Thuc: Heel or Hero
    « Reply #21 on: June 23, 2010, 06:36:23 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I couldn't bring the above article here because it was copyrighted.  I couldn't understand it well, except that he said Bishop Thuc was caught on the horns of a dillema (sp).  Caught  between misereor super Sacrificium and mesereor super turbam.  

    I can understand this because I found myself caught on just such horns.  For ten years I vacillated.  I would bump into an atrocity and leave the church.  Then I would think they had the sacraments and Jesus held captive, so I had to go back.  Only to run into another atrocity and leave again.  In this way I agonized and vacillated and lost credibility with my family.  Dawn told me she also lost credibility with her family.  This was especially hard because I have always tried to maintain integrity.  I think the only think that made me lose it was that battle to stay in the NO.

    That went on for ten years, as I said, and only ended when I got on the net and learned that the "popes" had wittingly, willingly even deliberately done the things they did.  Eamon gets much credit for enlightening me.  What I didn't know had really hurt me.

    In the end Bishop Thuc "got to the bottom of it."  A feat even Lafebre never accomplished and how many millions of others haven't accomplished to this day.
    +RIP
    Please pray for the repose of her soul.

    Offline Alexandria

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2677
    • Reputation: +485/-122
    • Gender: Female
    Thuc: Heel or Hero
    « Reply #22 on: June 23, 2010, 07:05:12 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Trinity
    I couldn't bring the above article here because it was copyrighted.  I couldn't understand it well, except that he said Bishop Thuc was caught on the horns of a dillema (sp).  Caught  between misereor super Sacrificium and mesereor super turbam.  

    I can understand this because I found myself caught on just such horns.  For ten years I vacillated.  I would bump into an atrocity and leave the church.  Then I would think they had the sacraments and Jesus held captive, so I had to go back.  Only to run into another atrocity and leave again.  In this way I agonized and vacillated and lost credibility with my family.  Dawn told me she also lost credibility with her family.  This was especially hard because I have always tried to maintain integrity.  I think the only think that made me lose it was that battle to stay in the NO.

    That went on for ten years, as I said, and only ended when I got on the net and learned that the "popes" had wittingly, willingly even deliberately done the things they did.  Eamon gets much credit for enlightening me.  What I didn't know had really hurt me.



    How well I understand this - vacillation.  I, too, sometimes think that He is being held captive in the novus ordo and that I'll join Our Lady and St. John in keeping Him company at the foot of the cross.  Except that I know all of the arguments and still can't decide who is right.

    God bless and reward you, Dawn, and others who risked the loss of any credibility for the Truth.  Nothing less than the Truth would have been enough no matter where it had to be sought out.


    Offline Trinity

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3233
    • Reputation: +190/-0
    • Gender: Female
    Thuc: Heel or Hero
    « Reply #23 on: June 23, 2010, 07:11:19 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I didn't realize you are still stuck on the horns of that dillema.  No wonder you suffer.  

    They don't have Jesus or the sacraments.  They don't have anything but their own way.  You are living in the heart of the Church now, and can put all that behind you.
    +RIP
    Please pray for the repose of her soul.

    Offline Alexandria

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2677
    • Reputation: +485/-122
    • Gender: Female
    Thuc: Heel or Hero
    « Reply #24 on: June 23, 2010, 07:13:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I thought you knew.

    I had no idea that you had gone through the same thing.

    I wouldn't wish it on anyone.  I feel like a plaything of satan.

    Pray for me.

    Offline Trinity

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3233
    • Reputation: +190/-0
    • Gender: Female
    Thuc: Heel or Hero
    « Reply #25 on: June 23, 2010, 07:34:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I think many of us have.  I remember when I first learned that there was more than one kind of Catholic (I was told I was the "other" kind which was against abortion) I cried for four solid days.  Then I sat like a zombie for six weeks trying to figure out what to do.

    When I learned that the "popes" were doing all these things of their own free will, I turned my back and walked away and have had nothing to do with them ever since.  That day I became a sede long before I knew what a sede was.  I know they are whited sepulchres.

    I pray for you daily.
    +RIP
    Please pray for the repose of her soul.


    Offline Elizabeth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4845
    • Reputation: +2195/-15
    • Gender: Female
    Thuc: Heel or Hero
    « Reply #26 on: June 23, 2010, 07:50:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Thank you for the biography, Trinity.

    This is very different from the vicious things I had been told about Abp. Thuc.

    Do you know the author of this?

    Offline Alexandria

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2677
    • Reputation: +485/-122
    • Gender: Female
    Thuc: Heel or Hero
    « Reply #27 on: June 23, 2010, 07:56:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Trinity
    I think many of us have.  I remember when I first learned that there was more than one kind of Catholic (I was told I was the "other" kind which was against abortion) I cried for four solid days.  Then I sat like a zombie for six weeks trying to figure out what to do.

    When I learned that the "popes" were doing all these things of their own free will, I turned my back and walked away and have had nothing to do with them ever since.  That day I became a sede long before I knew what a sede was.  I know they are whited sepulchres.

    I pray for you daily.
    [/b]

    God reward you for praying for me, and please pray that this vacillation
    resolves itself soon before I lose the little sanity I have left.   :pop:

    Offline Trinity

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3233
    • Reputation: +190/-0
    • Gender: Female
    Thuc: Heel or Hero
    « Reply #28 on: June 23, 2010, 07:57:09 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I have put so many things up here I'm not sure which "this" you refer to.  If it is the Tower Tribute I believe that is Dr. Drolesky.  Not sure, mind you, but I think so.  For the rest, they should have the names of their authors.
    +RIP
    Please pray for the repose of her soul.

    Offline Dawn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2439
    • Reputation: +47/-1
    • Gender: Female
      • h
    Thuc: Heel or Hero
    « Reply #29 on: June 23, 2010, 08:26:49 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, I think in this case the Tower of Trent was written by Michael Cain, editor of Daily Catholic. I tell you Alexandria it is because of Dr. Droleskey (who lagged behind me only slighly in coming out of the Sede closet) and Gladius Veritatis that I ever was able to reach the  place I am at know. I highly suggest you go through the archived Wild West from Fisheaters (Eamon brought it here and Matthew can direct you.) EVERY SINGLE THING about the the true Church is not in the Novus Ordo. You must understand that they created a false Church at Vatican II and that the real Church is in eclipse. Now, many saints and mystics have told of this time to come. But, Our Lady told of it at LaSalette. If Our Immaculate Queen said it then it is enough for me to believe it.